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Tolerance...do we practice what we preach?

lash

Swamp Rat
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http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/matt-walsh-first-they-tore-down-confederate-monuments-next-theyll-come-for-the-founders/


Matt Walsh: First they tore down Confederate monuments. Next they’ll come for the Founders.
May 22, 2017 11:31 am

The city of New Orleans completed its purge of its own history last week when a statue of Robert E. Lee was torn down.
Throngs of historically illiterate people stood by and cheered as a monument to one of this country’s greatest generals was destroyed. On social media, many more applauded the move, demonstrating a level of disrespect and contempt for General Lee that his enemies on the battlefield did not even have. When General Lee surrendered his Army of Northern Virginia to General Ulysses S. Grant at Appomattox, the victors treated Lee and his men with dignity and honor. It took 150 years for Lee to become nothing but a cowardly, racist traitor, as he’s been described by the noted historians on Twitter.

I have long been of the opinion that one must refrain from forming concrete opinions of historical events and historical figures if one has never read a history book. And if the pitchfork mob would stop for a moment to read a book about Robert E. Lee, they would learn that he was far from the slobbering, slave-owning, treasonous bigot they make him out to be. Indeed, Lee never purchased a single slave. The slaves he inherited from his wife’s family, he freed long before the end of the war. Lee considered slavery to be a “moral and political evil,” which means he condemned it in harsher terms than even many of his northern counterparts ever did.

No, he did not consider the black race to be completely equal to the white race, but — contrary to the cartoonish portrayal of the Northern warriors for racial equality that you get from public schools — hardly anybody on either side believed in true racial equality. Lincoln thought the black race to be in every way inferior (“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races”), but, rather than enslaving them, he preferred shipping them all back to Africa. Lincoln also did not favor fighting a war to end slavery (“If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it”), and in that way his opinion of the peculiar institution was practically identical to Robert E. Lee’s.
Lee did not want to leave the Union. He only joined the Confederate army after his home state of Virginia seceded. As most people know, Lincoln offered Lee command of the Northern army, but Lee declined not because he didn’t want to preserve the Union, but because he didn’t want to march on his home and his family. Lee chose to fight beside his sons rather than against them. He chose to defend his home rather than take part in its destruction.

I’m not interested in debating here the political causes of the Civil War. When assessing the men themselves, I think it’s better to look at their personal motivations. And, for the most part, the personal motivations of those who did the fighting on either side had nothing to do with slavery. Most southerner soldiers and commanders would have considered themselves to be fighting to defend their homes, just as most Union soldiers and commanders (some of whom owned slaves) were motivated by a desire to defend the Union. It seems unlikely that very many of them were thinking “We must free the slaves!” or “We must keep the slaves!” as they charged into a hail of musket fire.

But, I’m told, that is all irrelevant. As the argument goes, anyone who fought for the South was complicit in slavery, and therefore must not be honored. Their personal valor and heroism does not matter. That they were fighting to protect their families from the army that was marching through their towns and burning their homes and fields does not matter. That General Lee was a man of great dignity does not matter. The fact that General Lee won many battles while commanding an army of hungry, shoeless, dehydrated farm boys against vastly superior numbers does not matter. All that matters is that they were associated with slavery, even if indirectly. Well, if that is the standard, then a very troubling precedent has been set.
Yes, Robert E. Lee was a reluctant secessionist and, though he opposed it, he fought for a side that supported slavery. If that is enough to condemn him, then he and his confederates will not be the only ones tossed on the bonfire of history. Next, they’ll come for the Founders. Once every Confederate memorial and statue has been demolished, the mob will fully set its eyes on those racist, slaveholding rebels who fought a treasonous battle of secession only 90 years prior. You can count on it.

The Founders didn’t secede for slavery, but many of them both supported it and profited off of it. When Thomas Jefferson wrote the immortal words “All men are created equal,” he did not mean for it to include the dozens of human beings he currently owned. If we have made slavery and racism the litmus test for deciding which historical figures deserve to be recognized, and which must be disgraced and forgotten, then we’re going to have to make some major renovations to several prominent DC memorials, not to mention Mount Rushmore. It seems only a matter of time before there is a serious movement to do just that, and, if we’ve been among the hordes cheering as the statues of Confederate generals were knocked to the ground, what will we really be able to say in protest?
We can try to draw distinctions all we want, but the fact remains that Thomas Jefferson was a slaveholder. So was George Washington. So was James Madison. So was John Hancock. So was Patrick Henry. Some of the Founders, like John Adams and Thomas Paine, opposed the practice, but they were largely exceptions. If Robert E. Lee, who owned no slaves and hated slavery, must be held liable for slavery because he fought on the side of those who wished to keep it legal, how can we not hold liable those historical figures who actually were slaveholders themselves? By what bizarre and twisted standard can we tear down a Robert E. Lee monument on the grounds of slavery while solemnly saluting the memorials and monuments of actual slaveowners? We can’t. And the forces that have spearheaded this effort to denigrate the memories of great southern generals know that. It’s all part of the plan. Mark my words.

Of course, if we’ve gotten into the business of stuffing those associated with slavery down the memory hole, we’ve got a lot of work to do. We certainly can’t stop with the Confederate or colonists. Slavery was an accepted institution across the planet for thousands of years. In some parts of the world, it still is. You will be hard pressed to find a patch of humanity anywhere on the globe that does not bear the ancestral guilt of slavery. This is not a crime unique to the white man, even less is it unique to the southern white man.

I am not attempting to diminish the evil of slavery or suggest that the southerners who supported it were not morally accountable for that support. But I am saying that if we are not allowing men like Lee even the slightest bit of historical context, then how can we allow it for anyone else? If we say that Lee should have been so against slavery that he would have been willing to take up arms against his own children to abolish it, how can we be lenient with so many other historical icons? Why do we require Robert E. Lee to have had the abolitionist zeal of John Brown — which is what would have been needed to prompt him to raise his sword against his home and his family over it — when no one on either side had the zeal of John Brown except for John Brown? Why are Robert E. Lee and company expected to have seen slavery from a modern lens if no one else in history is held to that standard?

Well, the problem, as I say, is that others in history will soon be held to that standard. The purge will continue. The mob will move on to its next target. And how will we be better for it?
(But, hey, at least that Lenin statue in Seattle will remain standing.)​​​​​​​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle
 
But....but....but mah feelings be more important dan history!


I love how most people only knowledge of the civil war ( or really any historical event) comes from 2 weeks of highschool history.......but to hear most people speak(especially on FB)....youd think they all have PHDs in american history.

I mean hell, even 30 mins on google will get you 90% of the way there.....but for some reason people would rather believe that the civil war was fought over slavery because thats what they were taught in high school once
 
At university -- in the 80s -- I was taught the war wasn't fought to free the slaves. Clearly that's not taught today.
 
Cotton and the textile industry...

Greed and power...

The meat and potatoes of almost all wars.

But then what do I know.
 
What you expect from the candy asses running the education system today? Even right here in the "heart" of dixie, Atlanta GA I may as well be behind enemy lines. Its like a liberal island or something. Henry Talbot Walker would roll over in his grave! Guess Im well placed to sow sabotage among their ranks atleast, anyhow.

Cant remember where but I recall reading how one rag tag looking low rank CSA troop being asked why he chose to take up arms against the yankees. His reply: "Because youre here."
 
1984 was meant to be a warning... not a playbook.

A hard rain's a gonna fall.

Just 'sayin.

Cheers,

Sirhr

"As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs – to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct, nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place."
 
Lincoln's War of Northern Aggression is becoming more widely understood for what it was, not the Disney bullshit narrative about freeing the slaves sold to the tourists. MANY men who fought for the South should be celebrated for their service, it's disgraceful how men of honor like Lee and others, truly impressive individuals on many levels, are now being expunged from history.
 
Here in the Northern State that lost more per-capita than any other state.... I remember even as a kid in the 1960's and '70's... that the Civil War was not taken lightly. It was about slaves and states rights and holding the union together. The famous Lincoln quote (pardon my butchery) "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all the slaves, I would do it. If I could preserve the Union buy freeing some of the slaves and not others... I would do it. And if I could preserve the Union by freeing none of the slaves, I would do that too." Again, pardon my butcherious paraphraseing..... but that sentiment resonates.

The fact remains, in our history as a nation, that there were brave, heroic and committed men (and women and Negroes -- to use the pejorative term -- and natives and immigrants and... lots of folks) who fought for their lives and their beliefs on both sides. One side won. One lost. But both sides had heroes. And they were ALL Americans. And ALL gave of themselves for what we are today as a nation.

This trend by butt-pirates and other leftard morons to erase this history is appalling. As a kid, I was regaled with stories of how the South was our enemy. When, as a 20-something I lived in the South... I was regaled with stories about how it was a war of Northern Aggression... I understood that there are many sides to a story. Read "Pickett's Charge in History and Memory" by Carol Reardon to understand how it all fits together in the psyche. But the fact remains... that whatever side one was on... there were heroes who contributed to what we are as a nation. And they deserve to be remembered for their commitment to their causes.

The erasure of history is right out of the Marxist playbook. Because when 'history is bunk' there is nothing to build a belief system around except your Communist manifesto or your Maoist redbook.

Southern Generals and Nathan Bedford Forrest and his KKK were not something I was raised to revere for their outlook. But as Americans we should ALL look beyond to understand that these folks fought for, ultimately, American values. That have, since 1865, blended together into... today's American values. Not socialist values. Not EU values. Not Commie/socialist/manbun/progressive/a**-pirate values. But American values.

This is what we should keep fighting for. Including fighting for the statues that commemorate the great Americans, both sides, who fought for what their part of America believed in. I don't want to fight for the KKK that Forrest founded. But I'll be damned if I don't want to fight to keep a statue of Forrest standing... so that people can understand who he was and what HE fought for. Because he fought for something he believed in.

And I'll fight to remember people who believed in... what they believed in.

Pardon the rant.

Sirhr
 
Lincoln's War of Northern Aggression is becoming more widely understood for what it was, not the Disney bullshit narrative about freeing the slaves sold to the tourists. MANY men who fought for the South should be celebrated for their service, it's disgraceful how men of honor like Lee and others, truly impressive individuals on many levels, are now being expunged from history.

Well said sir. These men(some of them even serving under the US gov't before) took up arms and made their stand against a tyrannical United States government when the "peaceful attempt" was unsuccessful. A lesson to us all IMO.

Pussies back then would be alpha males today.
 
Sirhr, I agree completely about heroes on both sides and for having huge problems with the KKK branch of the Confederacy, but my NY education a decade or so later than yours was filled with the same Lincoln rubbish that hid his true record. In truth Lincoln had no problem slavery, he went to court to defend the Fugitive Slave Act, thought blacks were an inferior race who should be sent back to Africa. His performance of American Caesar is unmatched since, and still were sold this nonsense about "preserving the Union." Ask yourself how many other countries needed to have a Civil War to "end slavery" if in fact that was the real purpose of the conflict. The rarity of being an Abolitionist back then is far greater than most have a clue, slavery was not a contested issue for most people.
 
If Lee was such a great general why did he bleed the South dry at Gettysburg? Lees offensive tactics brought tactical and strategic victories but, they consistenly wasted men and material the Confederacy couldn't afford to loose. With the benifit of hindsight it is perfectly clear that Lee should have fought a war of defence and bleed the North for every step they took into his territory. For that matter suppost that the South had never fired on Fort Sumpter (I don't know that lee is responsible for that) what pretext could Lincoln have come up with to attack the independent south?
 
Thank God the north won so those God damned commie faggots in Washington can dictate their will on the lowly people.
 
Sirhr, I agree completely about heroes on both sides and for having huge problems with the KKK branch of the Confederacy, but my NY education a decade or so later than yours was filled with the same Lincoln rubbish that hid his true record. In truth Lincoln had no problem slavery, he went to court to defend the Fugitive Slave Act, thought blacks were an inferior race who should be sent back to Africa. His performance of American Caesar is unmatched since, and still were sold this nonsense about "preserving the Union." Ask yourself how many other countries needed to have a Civil War to "end slavery" if in fact that was the real purpose of the conflict. The rarity of being an Abolitionist back then is far greater than most have a clue, slavery was not a contested issue for most people.

On one level, you are right on! Lincoln did not become president to end slavery... nor would he have made the emancipation proclamation if he had not needed to in order to give a 'cause' to a war that was dragging out, costing tens of thousands of lives and becoming something the North was growing tired of. Remember that he was likely to lose the 1864 election to McLellan, who would have run as a Democrat and negotiated a settlement/separation with the Confederacy.

But I will argue that the spark that ignited the Civil War was slavery. And the concern that Southern States had of limiting slavery in the new states that were joining the United States at that time. The Missouri Compromise had sparked an early civil war... on the Kansas border. This, though, was not the spark either. The spark was that the Southern states believed that more 'free' states would join the Union over time and that these votes in Congress would water down their power and their rights. They were looking down the road 10, 15, 20 years... and realizing that their economy was going to be devastated if they could not base their economy on free labor. And, remember, that 'human property' made up a huge portion of the wealth of many Southern families -- at least the ones in power (the average Southerner certainly did not own slaves... couldn't afford one!). So the loss of this property, too, would have been immense.

All that said, Lincoln, in his inaugural, specifically stated that he would not start a war. He certainly was not prepared for one. There was no Army to speak of. The South was actually better prepared since their militias and drilling societies had sprung into vogue after Harpers Ferry (John Brown's escapade... over slavery). And Lincoln was open to negotiation or to leaving the status quo IF it would preserve the Union, which was still a pretty precarious thing. Remember that before the Civil War, people said "The United States are..." and only after did we start saying "The United States is..." And nothing would have happened if it had not been for Fort Sumpter and First Manassas.... which turned rhetoric into a need to fight, first to preserve the union and prevent succession... and only later, when expedient, to wrap it in the mantle of freeing the slaves.

But to say slavery was not the root cause of the Civil War, I think, is incorrect. It was certainly the cause. But it was not why the fighting started. And it certainly, by the end, provided the justification. Because 'state's rights' or 'economics' were just too complex a concept for selling a conflagration.

Historian Shelby Foot had a great quote years ago in the Ken Burns series which I think sums up why so many fought... even when they probably did not care a whit about slavery. It was the story of a Confederate prisoner... obviously very poor. Not a slave owner. Not even political. He was asked why he was fighting the Union. His response was "Because you all are down here." As I recall, Shelby foot remarked that "It was a most satisfactory answer."

Anyway... the result... the pendulum, as some said above, is likely that there is now too much power in Washington. And, to steal a phrase, a number of states have been working hard to take their rights back. The term (since it's being fought in the courts, largely on civil actions) that has come to describe this is "A very Civil War." Fought with writs and lawsuits and, more recently, the ballot box And not with weapons. This is 'the peaceful attempt' that folks above reference... and I think is pretty close to the truth.

And the issue is no longer slavery but entitlements, regulations, taxation, foreign entanglements, the 2nd Amendment... myriad of things.

One big spark, however, can set a previously laid fire off in a hurry. The logs, the kindling and the tinder are all waiting at some level. Just like slavery (to steal another line from, I think Jefferson) was a snake coiled in the room of the Constitutional Convention... and was like "Holding a wolf by its ears. You didn't like it, but you didn't let go either." Civil Wars are always generations in the making...

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
I don't know who it was that said "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". ISIS destroys History too don't they?

The civil war was all about slavery. But it was the Economics of Slavery not the Morality of it. The South had an unfair advantage over the North. It was called free labor. So the North heavily taxed any industrial machinery going to the South. The South wanted to industrialize badly. The north knew they would not be able to compete if the South had free labor and modern machinery. Those taxes were the Northern Aggression you hear of.

War is usually about money.

 
Saw this quote in the comments of that article:

"What saddens me is how one community organizer managed to reverse 150 years of progress in race relations in just eight years."

I think he has emboldened those that are invested in the "victim" identity while at the same time he has exposed the fallacy of that position. The only power they have is a media that magnifies their strength when the reality is that they are very weak.

Follow the LeBron James gate graffiti story. It seems James is a tool of the community organizer. How is it that this graffiti event was perpetrated and than erased before the Police could show up? Im guessing LeBron has security at his house equal to or exceeding most govt buildings. James is saying life in America is tough for him. Anyone want to trade places to experience what America has provided him?

I agree that for some black people life in America does single them out and shun them but its not a factor of skin color it has to do with adopting an unproductive culture. Adopting a thug culture transcends race, whites, Asians, middle easterners, hispanics, martian, Neptunians that emulate a culture of ignorance all get discriminated against when they act in a manner that disdains responsibility and self reliance. Not all black people are living this thug life and not all whites etc can claim they are productive

We had moved beyond skin color if you have kids this is abundantly evident. Our success in doing so is threatening to the "victimologists" because without that arbitrary bias they lose their reason to be and the funding that goes along with it. Victimology has been profitable for Al Sharpton and when donations looked to be drying up he was very willing to create mayhem.

Trump has a chance to show the answer is in self reliance rather than victimhood. Its an easy battle to fight because it is based on reality. Just restore the opportunity that was taken away and replaced by a minimum subsistence living in exchange for voter loyalty.

53 people shot in Chicago over Memorial Day weekend. If those casualty numbers were from Iraq or Afghanistan that would have been big news.
 
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Another facet of the Civil War that is rarely discussed and ignored by academia was important. The southern states printed their own currencies. They did not want to give up control of their currencies to the Federal bank then located in New York City. That was a component of states rights that was important to people at the time that believed in states sovereignty and rights.
 
The border wars in Kansas and Missouri is a real interesting subject. Basically guerrilla attacks from both pro Union and pro CSA partisans. Gave rise to legends like Jesse and Frank James, Cole Younger and others who felt they never lost and so were obligated to carry on harrassing the yankees.. and still the subject of movies today like Josey Wales and True Grit. Some cool reading for those interested, the trial of Frank James. General Jo Shelby testified on his behalf(the Confederate who said to hell with surrender and went to Mexico trying to be mercenaries for Maximilian):