Advanced Marksmanship Transitioning to precision shooting.

[Grimm]

Long time lurker. First time poster. To preface I searched the sight thoroughly and failed to find adequate answers.

After a lifetime of disinterest in tactical precision shooting I drank the koolaid and bought a Savage mkII as a training rifle. Got my groups under control at 25m and moved out to 50 with under 1inch groups on target. I purchased a Remington 700 Sps tactical and topped it with a busnell 3200 10x.

Backstory complete I went to the range yesterday. I warmed up with solid 1/4 inch grips with the 22 and did my initial sight in. I was on paper; grouped and zeroed the 308 at 50 then pushed out to 100. Everything fell apart. My 'groups' were 6inchs apart at first. I got it down to about 3 to at least give me a 100yd zero, but no way I could box tet my scope. I got so frustrated I burnt 40rds on steel targets at 200 and 300. Made me feel better to get positive feedback from the steel. I went back to the 100 paper and still 3inch groups. At that point I was unwilling to shoot any of my match ammo and I put my 308 on the rack.

Even with front and rear sandbags I feel the scope is vibrating. Is this a common transition problem from iron sights, am I just goofy, or is there some piece of advise that anyone can ofer me to tighten my groups down at 100m so I can move out?

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

First off, welcome to the site.

If you think your scope is vibrating, then rattle with your hand, see if you feel movement. If tightened correctly, you shouldn't be able to budge without EXTREME force applied.

If this is a new rifle, you need to get use to it. Took me about the same amount of ammo to get use to my SPS Tactical.

Shoot, shoot, shoot. If you get good groups and accurate hits at 200-300, then your obviously doing something wrong at 100, not the rifle.

What is your zero now? 100? Also, ammo brand, gr, bullet, etc info?

 

[Grimm]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

Thank you for the welcome

I checked the scope for security, that wad my initial thought too. It's tight. I have it in Burris xtr's torqued to 15 in/lbs and it's pretty solid.

Ammo used was 100rds 150gr MC from UMC. The cheapies. I have a couple boxes each HSM 168gr BTHP match and Black Hills same load but because of the huge groups I didn't run any of it.



I'm zeroed at 100m and I was just eyeballing the holdover at 200-300 but it seems ballistically very similar to 30-30. That's just to my eye I'm not citing a reference.

My frustration probably does stem from this weapons newness. I also should know better but I guess I thought the ability to hit minute of prairie dog (or whatever we have back in Montana) at the same distance made me think I could run three rounds in about an inch first time.

What position should I be practicing from? The range I went to only allows seated or standing, but I may start going to another range that allows prone shooting.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

What size steel were you shooting at? I take it that your new to shooting with optics as well? There is a really good write up on here about how to properly adjust parallax. How were your groups at 50yds? If they were good say an inch then 2-3 would be your expectation at 100. With proper practice, patience, and determination you'll cut your groups in half in no time. Also look for the practical tactical target on here and use it. Also let us know what your set up consist of, base, rings, etc. Prone is obviously the most stable platform for shooting so try to find a range nearby that let's you shoot in any position. Shooting from a bench is fine to. Are you using sandbags or a bipod? Some people think it's easy to shoot a MOA group just holding the rifle but that's not really the case. It needs to be supported if it's not. Hope this helps

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

Welcome to the world of long range shooting. There are a lot of factors that all have to come together in this game. Your skill, the guns ability to shoot well, loads that are accurate in your gun and a decent scope.

Sometimes it's hard to narrow down what is the problem but I'll guess a lot of it might be to just spend quality time at the range working on technique. Sometimes trying for that little tiny group and the nervousness of hoping that next shot goes into the same hole as the previous one is what causes it to go off into never never land.

There are plenty of threads on here about learning how to position yourself behind your stick. I've found that even if you don't have perfect form as long as you do it the same everytime you're groups will shrink although you may not get the zero movement after your shot that others might have.

With our guns we have learned that even the tiniest difference in grip or finger tension or the slightest variance in squeezing the trigger straight back affects our shots. You'll learn to finesse each shot like an artist and feel when something wasn't just right. Eventually you'll know when it goes off if it was perfect and you'll know its a hit before it even gets there.

That scope is a decent scope although not a high end optic my buddy shot one all last year at our 1000 yard matches and it performed flawlessly although without a paralax adjustment he had to be careful that he looked thru it the same everytime.

Not sure on your loads, I'd probably try a few of your match loads after a bit more experimentation at the bench. It's not an easy game to master and there is a lot more to it than just sitting behind a gun and putting the crosshairs on a target and slapping a trigger.

It'll start to come together and if you can find someone to meet up with that has experience at this game you'll be miles ahead in ironing out any problems you might be overlooking.

Good Luck, it's fun game but can be so frustrating at times too.

Topstrap

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

You could have a multitude of problems/errors. The only thing for sure is bullets are going where the barrel is pointed. But, since you're shooting groups, suggesting proper application of the fundamentals, you might try making your stockweld more consistent to anchor sight alignment, the relationship between your eyeball and eyepiece. This minimizes parallax error which could otherwise undermine recognition for where the rifle is pointed. You may need a stock pack or other device to allow for a stockweld which places the eyeball square to the eyepiece when the full weight of the head is correcly resting on the comb.

Also, align sight before consideration for the target/reticle relationship, or hold. After you've squared things up, then adjust NPA for desired hold, focus on the sight, pull the trigger utilizing smooth trigger control, and follow-through. Following-through, that's to say, maintaining aim until recoil has subsided, will allow you to call your shots. Calling shots will indicate the source/s of all errors.

One more thing, there are five factors to a steady position: grip, non-firing hand, elbows, stockweld, and butt-to-shoulder. These factors describe the relationship between you, the rifle, and the ground. This relationship needs to be as consistent as it is steady. For steady, you must transfer the stability of the ground into the position through bone/artificial support. When built properly, the position will be muscularly relaxed.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

Welcome to the site!

As others have already said, it's really hard to nail down without seeing you and the rifle together. Might be the rifle... or it might be you ( depending on your expierience level )

For example, at least half the error could be attributed to not looking through the scope the same way every time. I have no idea if that is the issue and, I don't mean to insult either. It's just that there are so many variables. Even on sandbags, flinching could do at least that much error... even on sandbags. It could be the scope or the scope mount.... it could be the rifle.

If you lived around here, I'd offer to go to the range with you and see if I could help you figure it out.

It may be a good idea to let someone else shoot your rifle when you see someone that is shooting bug holes at the range. That way you can see if it is you, the rifle or, some of both causing the large groups.

 

[Kalman]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

Cheap ammo = cheap results. Federal Gold Medal match is 3/4 to 1/2 MOA capable in most quality rifles and can be had online for ~20$/box. If you're paying 25-40$ a box for match ammo you're over paying.

My SPS-T AAC:SD (similar rifle, has 1:10 instead of 1:12 twist rate), shoots 3/4 MOA @100 all day long and some of it's still me. If I change to something cheap like winchester power points, my groups instantly open to >2"@100 yards. I don't think I even finished shooting that box. I'd start by shooting some quality ammo from it.

I helped a friend "sight in" his AR at 100 yards the other week. He was putting crap ammo through it and getting 3" groups @ 100 w/ no wind. Finally talked him into getting some decent ammo and the group size shrank to ~1". Which is impressive because the trigger on that thing is complete and utter crap.

 

[223man]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

I would suggest to also go back and look at the basics of marksmanship. I have shot guns for most of my life, but this long range stuff was a hole new animal to me. A really good place to start is to sign up for the on line classes here on the Hide. Doing that really helped me out. Best of luck.


John

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

I think it's a bit of an assumption to expect bad results from the match ammo without actually trying any, and to assume that because the Rem/UMC didn't fare so well that everything else will be problematic as well. Try five of each of the match stuff; no scope adjustments, just hold small and let them land where they want.

Unless there's something wrong with the equipment, I expect the Savage will perform as expected and put the match rounds into a much closer formation than the Rem/UMC.

If it still shoots poorly, go over the action and scope mounting screws. Then check the scope for parallax (at the same distance as above, sight the target with a firm support, bipod and/or bag(s), and move the eye up/down, left/right behind the eyepiece while keeping the rifle rock steady. If the crosshair appears to track across the target in conjunction with the eye movement, odds are good the scope's parallax is out of adjustment).

Transitioning from rimfire to a centerfire can cause issues with trigger control. One reliable check would be to have a shooter of known expertise have a go with the Savage. Sometimes it's really just a training issue, and fixing that is easy. We all go though such stuff once in awhile.

Greg

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Transitioning from rimfire to a centerfire can cause issues with trigger control. One reliable check would be to have a shooter of known expertise have a go with the Savage. Sometimes it's really just a training issue, and fixing that is easy. We all go though such stuff once in awhile.

Greg </div></div>

+1

Another good training excercise is to play load or not load the rifle.

Have someone load the rifle for you when you turn your head. Every now and then, he fails to load a round and, you get to find out if you're flinching or not.

 

[Kalman]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another good training excercise is to play load or not load the rifle.

Have someone load the rifle for you when you turn your head. Every now and then, he fails to load a round and, you get to find out if you're flinching or not.</div></div>
You can do this with snap caps too. That way he can load a whole magazine (blind or detachable). They'll "feel" right and you can actuate the bolt and everything.

 

[Grimm]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

Thank you all for your responses and constructive criticism.

After Sterling's suggestion that Consistant sight picture may be an issue I got out my rifle and checked. Sure as explitive my cheek to stock weld was almost and a half below my cheekbone. More like a cheek to jaw weld. I think my unfamiliarity with the weapon allowed me to over look this. I'll build up the stock and try again. While I was at it I also took down the action and adjusted the trigger. Despite what the manual says backing out the screw on the trigger face does next to nothing. The factory setting was also not what the manual said as my trigger test gave me 4.5#. It now breaks at 1.25#.
For now I'm shooting off sandbags, or occasionally with sling (m1907) Because I'm going to established ranges and I have plenty of time/space to haul out gear I don't need the mobility of a bipod.
Re: Greg
I had originally intended to do just like you said and check the match ammo after sighting in, but I was so alarmed that I didn't want to throw good money after bad without diagnosing the problem.

I'll drag my sandbags and the rifle back out to the range in a couple days and see what there is to see. I also purchased several more boxes of match ammo. Now that it's on paper and I'm reasonably sure I've diagnosed the primary source of problems, as usual me, there's no reason to keep running UMCs, well hitting the gong I guess which is reason enough.

Again thank you all, your advise is very much appreciated.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

Don't get to bent out of shape over it. Get some good ammo to feed it and go shoot it...a lot.

You are probably seeing a multitude of issues, all compounding, not just one.

Ammo and time will yield the best results.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

I think I can understand a reluctance to expend your expensive ammo. IMHO there can be no more expensive ammo than the stuff you buy, and then are too reluctant to actually shoot because of the cost. Ammo is only useful when you're actually using it.

The only ammo I maintain any stock of is stuff I can't make myself, like .22LR and shotgun ammo.

I think that bullets shouldn't spend too much time lying around inserted in case necks. I suspect it affects bullet pull force, and negatively impacts best accuracy. IMHO the best ammo is the freshest ammo.

Yes, it will live fine on the shelf for a long long time and still go bang. But I still think fresher is better, and try not to make up any more ammo than I actually have a specific plan to shoot sometime in the next two to three weeks.

Exceptions, as stated above, .44 mag which I don't (yet) reload, some old, old bulk Norinco 7.62x39 bulk Zombie Fodder, and a loadout of grab and go, ready to rock .30-'06 mil-spec ball ammo already loaded up in Garand clips.

Considering that if that's ever actually needed, life expectancies are already in the toilet; I figure a comfortable-to-carry load is plenty. Any more and them Zombies can catch up too easy.

Greg

 

[Grimm]

Re: Transitioning to precision shooting.

So I just got back from the range. Since my last post I added nearly two inches of temporary padding to form a positive cheek weld. I also picked up some HSM, BHA, Umarex, and a company called PPU match 168s. Because I know that I'm a big factor in the accuracy or lack thereof I fired 10 rd gruops into NRA 100yd small bore targets @ 100yds. I was unimpressed by the HSM which surprised me, I'm actually a fan of HSM in my pistols. The PPU was an unknown and fired ok kind of in a circle around the x. The Umex was terrible strung out across the bull. The Black Hills stuff was the best and helped convince me I'm not just a terrible shot. Knocked the x ring out of my target with one called flyer. In anticipation of the similarity between BHA and FGMM I think I'm going to order a case of GMM. So my ammo apparently I could have skipped experimenting with, but I prefer to take Internet advise with a grain of salt and I got trigger time either way.

Greg you bring up an interesting point about fresh ammo, I assume that the minute stresses of heat related expansion and compression could affect the rounds. For greater than bench rest accuracy does it impact the accuracy that much? I took my first and my latest deer with the same box of Winchester super x's I bought in 1998: yeah I'm not that old. Same goes for Elk although I've only taken 3 and my last was over 6 years ago.

On an interesting side note since you mentioned Garands. I found a loaded en bloc clip with blanks on a training site last month. I don't know when the M1 was removed from active service but even conservatively it has to be 50 years old. I emptied the casings and expended the primers before I cleaned it. 6 of eight fired.