Trapdoor Windage Instructions

[navynambu]

I thought some of you might like to see this set of Army drift/windage instructions from maybe the 1880s? Click the picture and it blows up to full size. Trapdoors really are not my thing, but I presume they are for a M1873 or more likely an M1882 with the improved rear sight. I stole these from a US Military forum post: https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/380179-e-l-zalinski/

 

[fpgt72]

I don't think I can say they are my "thing" as well, I tend to have a great many things going on.

The sighting on US rifles during that time up to roughly WWI is really quite the bag of worms. C&R covered it in the Krag and 1903 videos.

They are really fun, and you can shoot smokeless in them with no issues. Generally suggested to do lead. A few companies make "trapdoor safe" loads, a little like "garand safe" 3006, I have not looked for them in quite some time, not sure on available. If you do decide to "roll your own" general thought is to keep CUP pressures in the teens. I have a nice load that is roughly 14k, and my rifle likes it quite a bit out to 200 yards.

Mine is a pure shooter but does not do too badly.

 

[1588]

I don't think I can say they are my "thing" as well, I tend to have a great many things going on.

The sighting on US rifles during that time up to roughly WWI is really quite the bag of worms. C&R covered it in the Krag and 1903 videos.

They are really fun, and you can shoot smokeless in them with no issues. Generally suggested to do lead. A few companies make "trapdoor safe" loads, a little like "garand safe" 3006, I have not looked for them in quite some time, not sure on available. If you do decide to "roll your own" general thought is to keep CUP pressures in the teens. I have a nice load that is roughly 14k, and my rifle likes it quite a bit out to 200 yards.

Mine is a pure shooter but does not do too badly.

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Groups like that at 200 yards are impressive. What bullet weight and what powder are you using?

 

[fpgt72]

Groups like that at 200 yards are impressive. What bullet weight and what powder are you using?

It is a missouri bullet 405 non coated. The powder is a VV powder but I don't remember the number here at work. When I get home I will try to remember to look it up.

For record I tried some 300 grains, and they shot like crap. I got these during the "shortages" I have half a box of them, They shoot like the photos at 50. I plan on using them for milk jugs and soup cans and such, just use them up for playing.

 

[fpgt72]

To add I love the story about using that during a CMP match. You can finish if you hustle a bit. So many people with 223 and perhaps a 308 or 3006, and you are there making damn near half inch holes in paper. They are pop pop pop, then BOOM. So much fun, and I did not even finish dead last, near the bottom but not last.

 

[scatterbrains]

Some of the most fun reloading I've done was to duplicate trapdoor ammo to use the sights correctly. then we shot steel to 600 with it.

 

[fpgt72]

Some of the most fun reloading I've done was to duplicate trapdoor ammo to use the sights correctly. then we shot steel to 600 with it.

I know not a trapdoor, but trying for this. The article has some things not thought to be accurate anymore, but gives the general idea.

It would be "fun" to do on steel, but I think the original would be in my mind.

The Long Shot: The Battle for Texas at Adobe Walls

For years, this has been considered proof positive that Dixon shot the Comanche--but is it?

texashillcountry.com

 

[Flint62a1]

This has inspired me to dig deep in the closet amd get out my trapdoor. Hasn’t seen the light of day in a while.
Maybe tomorrow

Kevin

 

[sirhrmechanic]

This has inspired me to dig deep in the closet amd get out my trapdoor. Hasn’t seen the light of day in a while.
Maybe tomorrow

Kevin

Pix, or it didn't happen!

Sirhr

 

[Flint62a1]

Pix, or it didn't happen!

Sirhr

Tomorrow. I even have ammo loaded for it

 

[Flint62a1]

After sitting in the closet for a long while, the old girl made it to the range today. After a couple sighters and un-assing my head, she shot pretty well. 100 yards. Lee 300 gr bullet 12 grains of Unique with a floral foam plug to keep the powder in place.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

After sitting in the closet for a long while, the old girl made it to the range today. After a couple sighters and un-assing my head, she shot pretty well. 100 yards. Lee 300 gr bullet 12 grains of Unique with a floral foam plug to keep the powder in place. View attachment 8092540View attachment 8092541View attachment 8092542

Had no thought of using floral foam instead of kapok. Very good idea!

Awesome pix!

 

[Flint62a1]

Thanks ! I learned that from one of the old timers years ago. Take a block of the foam cut slices about 1/4” thick press it over the case mouth with your thumb amd seat it with a pencil or dowel. Completely disintegrates on firing.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Thanks ! I learned that from one of the old timers years ago. Take a block of the foam cut slices about 1/4” thick press it over the case mouth with your thumb amd seat it with a pencil or dowel. Completely disintegrates on firing.

Reason number 53731 why Snipers Hide Rocks!

Sirhr

 

[roostercogburn98]

Cool old guns. My friends dad has one he inherited from his dad. He let us shoot it when I was probably 14/15. Pretty amazing experience.

 

[Modoc]

This is making me want to get the 1886 out and hammer some steel at distance.

Blasted phone is hard to type on.

 

[Flint62a1]

This is making me want to get the 1886 out and hammer some steel BBC at distance.

Do it!! Love shooting old guns!

 

[navynambu]

Some 19th century US domestic snipers preferred the 1873 Trapdoor. Here's Geronimo with an 1873 Trap and some of his favorite crew, after surrendering in 1886.

 

[1588]

After sitting in the closet for a long while, the old girl made it to the range today. After a couple sighters and un-assing my head, she shot pretty well. 100 yards. Lee 300 gr bullet 12 grains of Unique with a floral foam plug to keep the powder in place. View attachment 8092540View attachment 8092541View attachment 8092542

I am using a light charge of Unique with a Laser Cast 350g bullet with good results at our gun club vintage rifle match. We shoot 50 meters offhand on a SR-1. I experimented with fillers, but they are not necessary for good accuracy.

 

[Flint62a1]

I had read a while back that light charges of pistol powder, similar to what we were using, had problems like secondary explosions . Apparently if the rifle wasn’t kept muzzle up the powder in the case would no longer lay on top of the primer, and when fired would cause serious trouble. I can’t remember where this information came from as I said it was quite a while ago. . That’s why we went with the floral foam to keep the powder on the primer.

 

[fpgt72]

I had read a while back that light charges of pistol powder, similar to what we were using, had problems like secondary explosions . Apparently if the rifle wasn’t kept muzzle up the powder in the case would no longer lay on top of the primer, and when fired would cause serious trouble. I can’t remember where this information came from as I said it was quite a while ago. . That’s why we went with the floral foam to keep the powder on the primer.

Very true, and in the old guns it is a very large issue. In the modern lever guns or #1's, really strong guns, not so much of an issue. But yes over on the black smokey forums real light charges of pistol powder are generally frowned upon. That said a great many people do it, and will go to their grave defending it.

I look at it this way, If I can afford a x.x grains of Trail Boss (very popular) and I can't afford 42 grains of N135 (Nice low pressure load, sub teens with a 405 bullet, but don't ever use loads some idiot on the internet posts up) Then I need to find a new hobby.

Now during the height of the shortages when large rifle primers are as hard to find as hens teeth I did go off into the weeds. I looked at large magnum pistol primers and thought.....well they are real close to the same size, and the pressure of my load is in the area of 12k CUP, according to the book and QuickLoad seems to agree.....and that is well under what a magnum pistol pressures would be, so I closed my eyes and hoped for the best. No issue, and looked like a pretty clean burn, easy to tell in a trapdoor, everything is right there to see. FPS numbers right there as well, so for that year I used the mag pistol primers.

Some of the things I have read on going under book specs is the....well that load is ok in 25acp so it should be ok in 45-70, ahh do the case volumes have anything in common.....don't think so.

In the end the last discussion on the pistol powders ended up in a dog pile and the thread locked.

So with all that said, you do you, but I sure as hell ain't gonna do it, my rifle will sit before I do that.

 

[1588]

I had read a while back that light charges of pistol powder, similar to what we were using, had problems like secondary explosions . Apparently if the rifle wasn’t kept muzzle up the powder in the case would no longer lay on top of the primer, and when fired would cause serious trouble. I can’t remember where this information came from as I said it was quite a while ago. . That’s why we went with the floral foam to keep the powder on the primer.

I read something to that effect in several threads on cast bullet forums. Some claimed the chamber would develop a ring and some claimed the barrel would ring just ahead of the leade if you did not use fillers. I am not a metallurgist and don't know the science behind it myself, but people had strong opinions in both directions. Sometimes the threads would get downright nasty.

This website has some good information on using fast burning pistol powders for light target loads and the chronograph data coincides with data I recorded with my 1888 Trapdoor rifle. http://gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

If you can find the article written by C.E. Harris about shooting cast bullets in old military rifles, it's certainly worth reading.

I won't comment further about whether or not I use fillers or whether or not I use large pistol primers, that would probably start a debate.

 

[fpgt72]

As we have drifted quite a bit, I think you guys might find this interesting as well, not for the 45-70 but for the 44-40. But one thing I agree with @1588 is whenever this comes up, "pistol" vs "rifle" powder, smokeless vs smokey, and even lead vs copper people come out of the wood work and will die on their chosen hill.

In the end read as much as you can and make your choice.

Chasing the 44-40 - Pressure Testing

IT IS NOT INTENDED FOR THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION TO BE USED BY ANYONE AS "LOAD DATA" The information is nothing more than informative for discussion purposes only. The physical use of any of the following information is done so at the reader's own risk.

sites.google.com

 

[Flint62a1]

When I got this tifle we used to shoot at the NEBTA shoots in south Jersey. I was tutored at the time by the old timers in our club, taught me the load. It works very well at 50&100 yards.
Over the years we have used it at scout shoots, club shoots, etc.
It works for us so theres no need to change it.

 

[25ring]

The military pull down powders WC867 & WC872 can be used in a Trapdoor. The charge fills the case and the pressures and velocity are in the range of BP . I competed with this load for a number of years until my eyesight made it too difficult to see that tiny front sight. FWIW

 

[Flint62a1]

I would imagine there are just as many loads for trapdoors as there are recipes for bullet lubes!