Suppressors True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

[Babo]

I'm an avid fan of high quality useful blades. Not always pretty but functional. High hardness, razor sharp yet flexible enough not to break with rough use. I've read all I can find on high carbon steels and especially damascus(wootz) steel. Some claim the art was lost 100's of years ago and others claim to have "re-discovered" it. And there are those that call pattern welded steel damascus just because it has visible patterns. In the end it's pretty much a moot point as modern alloys surpass the qualities museum quality damascus blades.

I'l love to hear anyone's input and comments as well.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

Not sure where to take this one. There is alot to read on this subject so quick answers really do not do it (you) justice on this topic.

1. Your correct, new materials make any use for damascus irrelevant for working knives. There is nothing wrong with damascus or pattern that isn't readily obvious and therefor avoidable in use/practice.

2. It was never lost, the arrogance of some is remarkable, at best...think incredible provincialism or, at worst...marketing gimmick.

3. There are master makers that work with others blanks. There are master makers that make their own blanks. It is beautiful to see when executed with great skill and can be a very strong, very sharp blade.

I'm thinking you might feel that you can find a damascus steel that will have unique characteristics that will provide you with a superior knife. IMO, You can't, don't waste your time and money if you are truly going to beat the knife up in use. If your shopping for beauty, I would tell you that there are few, very few, makers that are worth the extra money and will provide you with investment quality returns. Buy those and you can't use them for anything else than looking as they are art knives, they can, however, appreciate quickly...think vault queens.

 

[Chiller]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

It looks cool and is damn expensive. There are better steel alloys out there.

 

[Babo]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

I'm generally just looking for other insights into this topic. I tried to not draw any conclusions in my opening comments while stating my opinions. I agree that a true damascus would be a very tough and sharp blade but would end up on my display rack rather than carried.

I'd pay a fair price for a good looking pattern welded blade to carry; but the guys that try to pass them off as damascus in my opinion are no better that snake oil salesmen.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

Got that.

Many do not know the difference between pattern and damascus.
Much of what is true damascus makes for a poor knife.
Some confuse damascus with Japanees Tamahagane and Nabe-gane, by way of both components, production and attribute. Start there.
Damascus, for the most part, is best left for black powder shotgun barrels.
Damascus would be l-o-w on a knowledgeable persons list of materials for a blade.

 

[shadow2]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

I agree that there are great alloys out there for modern day uses. S30v S90v cpm154 and others. But i think that some get a little to caught up in high end steels for knife blades. Most of what your gonna use a knife for can be accomplished with a good carbon steel such as 1050,1095 O1 or W2. Ive gotten to forge blades out of carbon steels and they turned out great. Easy to make and you also get to a nice heat treat line. A good thing about the carbon steels is that you can get a great edge and its easily resharpened in the field whereas some of these higher end stainless alloys edge will last a little longer but you almost need a belt grinder to put and edge on it. Only bad thing about the carbon steels is that they rust a little quicker. Ive also gotten to make damascus. Not sure if you would call it true damascus but it was fun nonetheless.

 

[Babo]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

I agree that modern alloys work best for a useful knife. The best edge holder I've got is one I made from an old iron file. Holds a great edge for along time and I keep it that way on a leather strop block. Just have to keep a light coat of oil.

I guess the allure of Damascus for me is that for the most part due to an accident of circumstances; the right ratio of the right metals from the right mines, the right trace elements, the right crucible material, time, temp, etc all lead to an advance in swordsmithing that most likely changed the course of history.

 

[shadow2]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

Wasnt so much as a right materials coming together but the introduction of carbon into forging and advancements of heat treating that changed history. The materials were always there. Its just the refinements in technique that made the difference. Modern day damascus is not the same as you would see in an ancient samurai or european sword.

 

[shane45]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

As stated above monosteel is tough to beat. However, it does come down to what you want. My EDC is a Monosteel Emerson. A knife I have coming in from Decker Knives is a Pattern Welded Steel Bowie/Fighter. I consider knives/swords in this class functional Art. I do not intend to use them but enjoy the fact that they could be used if needed. Monosteel or Pattern Welded, both are made or broken in the heat treat. Get it wrong with either and you have garbage. My attraction to pattern welded steel is simply that a hand had to make it, old world style. As for definitions, I call it all pattern welded steel at this point. It seems to me the true experts in the field dont seem to note any significant difference among the monikers inclooding woots. The only one that seems to retain its title is Tamahagene since there is so much definition surrounding its creation up to and including where the raw material comes from and the foundry its made in.

 

[shane45]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

The knife I have comming in:

 

[TCA4570]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

Try this.
I bought from them in the 80's, when they were still called Koval knives, in Columbus oh.
http://www.knifemaking.com/

Back then there were only a couple of custom smiths making damascus blades.(old school)

Now you can buy stock and grind.

 

[dragoon]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

I have a 12" Bill Bagwell Bowie knife , from the 1980s , when a Damascus blade was running about $100 per inch . Bill is one of the premier hand-forged blade makers . His protege' was Bill Buckner , a Georgia highway-patrolman turned knifemaker - I have one of his , too ... I've heard of a sharp carbon-steel blade as having 'teeth' like a saw when viewed with a microscope - under the same viewing conditions the Damascus blade teeth also have teeth . These teeth getting clogged or bent are what make a knife dull . A sharpening steel re-aligns them and unclogs them , to an extent ... I did read a scientific report about the 'rediscovery' of wootz . It appears the tempering process is the secret . I don't remember the details , you might find it online ...

 

[Babo]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

very nice Bowie.
I've always believed that a really sharp good knife had that wire edge that had to be set just right. any kind of steel or ceramic would fold it over or curl it where a strop block that "gives" a little hones it straight to a razor edge. I'm not sure if this is true or not but I can tell you it works for every blade I own. Get it as sharp as you want it and run it over a strop once a week or so and it stays hair popping sharp.

 

[shark0311]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

It was not that the process for making Damascus was lost as it was that the source for the material was depleted. There are modern techniques used to replicate wootz Damascus that are relatively new. All modern day Damascus is not wootz.

This is a good read

The Key Role of Impurities....

 

[TCA4570]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

Here are just two more American Masters that helped keep the art alive, and advance it.
Their knives today are not the same as they were 25 plus years ago.
Randall stopped taking orders, because he had so many.
Not sure if he would be able to fill orders.
Models were very few.

Loveless was one of the first to use modern materials.
154CM. Micarta.

Please remember, this was before the net.
We had to buy books to learn.

 

[Bushmaster7]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

Good series of posts. FYI as well here is a link to a fantastic knifemaker of Japanese style blades who trained there for many years. His name is Murray Carter and his site is below. regards, Dale.

Carter Cutlery

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

A good thread.

TO be truthful and helpful, I would recommend everyone read carefully the article listed out by SHARK 0311. The importance is in the detailed analysis of the corresponding layers.

Again to be truthful and hopefully helpful, it needs to be said that the bowie knife shown is pretty, but the blade reflects what we used to call a "patterner's" blade. In other words, its pretty but the person had no clue that the wrap and layering had to be infinately tighter and "packed" at the blade's edge. Uniform layering, broadly dispered, with no blade pack means that smith was looking for pattern, not purpose. With all due respect, its a poster child of what one does not want if sharpness through layer dispersal is the goal. No harm meant, but that is at the core of what this thread is about. I remember first seeing that article many years ago. Look at the box with the picture of just the SIDE of those blades, THAT is pack.

Hope that doesn't blow the thread apart.

I'll throw up a group of very early and rare Cordovas. One of the early inducties to the Knifemakers Guild, he produced fighting knives that were a favorite of those serving in Rhodesia. The damascus blade was his first attempt at the art and where he had made a masterpiece of form and his grinding (all by hand) had no equal (every blade ground for exact balance) he knew, and I knew....not enough layers, not enough pack....and that was a 300 wrap. Good blade? Magnificent...just not better than the D2s and other tool steels of the period. I too had alot to learn. That was long, long before the astonishing monos available now. By the way, to this day, few big fighters disappear in the air like a Cordova, truly weightless.

 

[Juan Valdez]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

I've read that when studied under a microscope, yes, there is a difference in how today's pattern welds and the old wootz is put together. Regardless, the content of meterials and the heat treating process is what makes the difference in a blades' edge holding ability.

Many folks that I've talked to (and even some "makers" at gun shows and flea markets) are under the impression that you can take a piece of steel, grind it to shape, put a handle on it and sharpen it and it's a "top notch" knife. I strongly disagree.

When I started making a couple of years ago, I really dove into the metalurgy and the heat treating processes for different steels. You can take any of the steels mentioned in this thread and make a bad-ass knife or completely ruin them in the heat treat. I've quenched a lot of steel at different temps just to break it over the anvil and examine the grain. I am fully convinced that the heat treating process is what makes the difference.

However, the introduction of alloys cannot be over-looked. Materials like tungsten and molybdenum make a blade damn tough while special carbides like vanadium reduce the size of the grain.

In the end, the difference in a pattern welded blade (done properly) and a standard blade made from one of the same steels is looks based on what I've learned so far.

 

[shane45]

Re: True Damascus vs Pattern welded steel

Juan , many of the top,top makers I have chatted with about metallurgy seem to me to agree with you.