Hunting & Fishing True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

[Salmo22]

First, let me emphasize that I am not claiming to be an expert. I simply have been wondering about an aspect of hunting recently and wanted to through it out on this board for discussion.

I've watched a ton of hunting DVD's and TV shows over the years. It is my opinion that the majority of animals (from predators to big game) shot on camera do not "drop in their tracks". While I realize that some of the animal's post "hit" movement may be the result of a less than well placed shot or a small caliber weapon that does not hit with enough force, it seems to happen often.

My father raised me to neck shoot all the game I've ever hunted. When I center-punch an animal in the neck it goes straight down like I'd turned the switch off. My dad has killed six big bull elk in his life time and shot all of them in the neck. On every occasion, the elk fell dead door nails in its' tracks. Based on my experience, the neck shot appears to send a tremendous shock wave to the brain and generally breaks the animals neck. The resulting brain and neck damage is typically so severe as to cause instantaneous death. Unlike a heart/lung shot, no amount a adrenaline will overcome a fatal neck shot. How many times have we hunters marveled at an animal with a serious hole in its heart and lungs go running up hill for a hundred yards after getting "tagged" in the "boiler"?

I don't want to sound like some kind of bleeding heart, but I wonder why the focus on shooting game animals through the heart/lungs? Rarely have I seen a heart/lung shot drop an animal in its tracks. 9 times out of ten it makes some sort of "run" before it drops. Frankly, it doesn't seem to be much more effective than a heart/lung archery shot.

I've often wondered if we are doing the sport of hunting a diservice by producing DVD's and TV shows that don't show more "drop-dead" kills? It certainly does not help our cause to have PITA or our non-hunting wives see these animals shot and not go down quickly. When I see a fellow on the Outdoor Channel talk about a "one shot" kill, it typically means he shot the animal once in the heart/lung area and then followed a blood trail to where the deer/elk/moose/etc has expired. My idea of a "one shot" kill means one shot and the animal went straight down dead.

I'm not critcizing anyone and to each hunter his own; however, I've often wondered why we don't employee more neck or even head shots in our hunting? Do we need more practice to have greater confidence in a neck/head shot, or have we simply been conditioned by years of magazine articles and TV shows to always aim for the heart/lungs?

I will be very interested to see how others feel about this.

 

[krink85]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I shoot deer mainly with a bow so its only heart/lung shots there. Where I hunt (Illinois) there is no hunting with center fire. I use a 1187 with a rifled barrel and iron sights. I then shoot at the heart/lung areas as well. I have a larger target and I also know where vital organs are. I haven't studied the neck ever so I am not saying its wrong to shoot there, its just not my preference. I will also admit that I get buck, doe, fawn, and the sound of deer fever. That would make shot placement on smaller targets harder. I also don't mind tracking a deer. I find it a fun and relaxing thing to do after all the buck fever I just experienced and we can pretty much get a 4 wheeler anywhere a deer will go down.

The only thing I would say about any shot taken is that you make a good one. No sense in trying for a shot you are unsure of and sending a animal off with a hole it didn't have before.

 

[Salmo22]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krink85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will also admit that I get buck, doe, fawn, and the sound of deer fever. That would make shot placement on smaller targets harder. I also don't mind tracking a deer. I find it a fun and relaxing thing to do after all the buck fever I just experienced and we can pretty much get a 4 wheeler anywhere a deer will go down.

The only thing I would say about any shot taken is that you make a good one. No sense in trying for a shot you are unsure of and sending a animal off with a hole it didn't have before. </div></div>
Hey Krink:

I hear you loud and clear on buck fever. My last muley was shot after I had been sitting for over 4-hours watching a saddle area where deer were crossing. The minute I saw my buck, my heart rate instantly tripled and I started to hyper-ventilate. Luckily, I made a good shot at 278 yards right through the neck - instant death.

I just wonder why the high-tech rifle/scope combinations we enjoy today and the unbelievable balistic peformance these weapons produce can't kill a big game animal significantly more effectively than an arrow - when both are shot in the heart/lung area.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

IF everyone started taking Head/Neck shots there would be alot more wounded and unrecovered animals out there, Pretty much dead oppisite of your summory.

Neck: In the neck you have a 3" area that incapacitates everything else is tissue, hit one in the throat it will run a mile or 2 and then die.

Head : Brain and stem about 4-5 inches, the rest is bone and cartiladge, hit the mouth, nose, ears, jaw your just going to permanently maim the animal or kill it very slowly and horrificly. Added the fact that over 60 percent of hunters are hunting for both Trophies and Meat the head shot pretty much blows a nice headmount/shouldermount out of the picture.


Best shot is a Heart/Lung combo they are dead within 20-30 seconds even if they run off they are always found as the blood trail is easy to follow. Better shot is possibly a high shoulder shot where you get the spine and lungs both. This shot is always a one shot stop but the amimal probably suffers more then the Heart/Lung combo as he, eventhough paralized has to drown on its own blood.


Think about it, out of the Millions of hunters less than 1 percent could repeat with precision and accuratly make the shots your talking about, the other 99 percent would just make a mess.

 

[fcordrey]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Better shot is possibly a high shoulder shot where you get the spine and lungs both. </div></div>

+1

Every deer I have shot there has dropped in it's tracks . Not even one more step .I have shot them in the neck, head and behind the shoulder for a double lung /heart shot . I still prefer the high shoulder . Kills em dead and you've got 100% recovery !

 

[Guest]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmo22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My father raised me to neck shoot all the game I've ever hunted. When I center-punch an animal in the neck it goes straight down like I'd turned the switch off.</div></div>

Table hunters, hunt an shoot meat differently than "sport" hunters.

99.9% of hunters today are after a wall hanger or photo bragging rights, the meat is secondary, which to me is pure B/S.

 

[montyb]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF everyone started taking Head/Neck shots there would be alot more wounded and unrecovered animals out there, Pretty much dead oppisite of your summory.

Neck: In the neck you have a 3" area that incapacitates everything else is tissue, hit one in the throat it will run a mile or 2 and then die.

Head : Brain and stem about 4-5 inches, the rest is bone and cartiladge, hit the mouth, nose, ears, jaw your just going to permanently maim the animal or kill it very slowly and horrificly. Added the fact that over 60 percent of hunters are hunting for both Trophies and Meat the head shot pretty much blows a nice headmount/shouldermount out of the picture.


Best shot is a Heart/Lung combo they are dead within 20-30 seconds even if they run off they are always found as the blood trail is easy to follow. Better shot is possibly a high shoulder shot where you get the spine and lungs both. This shot is always a one shot stop but the amimal probably suffers more then the Heart/Lung combo as he, eventhough paralized has to drown on its own blood.


Think about it, out of the Millions of hunters less than 1 percent could repeat with precision and accuratly make the shots your talking about, the other 99 percent would just make a mess. </div></div>

i agree 100% with this post. sometimes people will try the low percentage shot thinking that they will either quickly kill the animal or miss completely. well, a miss may break it's jaw leading to the worst death you can offer the animal. i was also raised by an old school meat hunter, but taught not to take low percentage shots.

the heart/lung shot will take out very minimal meat and kill the amimal cleanly. it will not anchor the animal on the spot, so if i am taking a shot on an animal near a property line , deep water, cliff, or other bad place for the animal to be, i will take the high shoulder shot which will anchor the animal.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

gunf,
It is not BS if you did not have the trophy animal hunters. you probably would not have hunting.
There must be an economic value or the pita's people would win.
I do not like the taste of deer, I give my meat away, but I will not stop trophy hunting.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF everyone started taking Head/Neck shots there would be alot more wounded and unrecovered animals out there, Pretty much dead oppisite of your summory.

Neck: In the neck you have a 3" area that incapacitates everything else is tissue, hit one in the throat it will run a mile or 2 and then die.

Head : Brain and stem about 4-5 inches, the rest is bone and cartiladge, hit the mouth, nose, ears, jaw your just going to permanently maim the animal or kill it very slowly and horrificly. Added the fact that over 60 percent of hunters are hunting for both Trophies and Meat the head shot pretty much blows a nice headmount/shouldermount out of the picture.


Best shot is a Heart/Lung combo they are dead within 20-30 seconds even if they run off they are always found as the blood trail is easy to follow. Better shot is possibly a high shoulder shot where you get the spine and lungs both. This shot is always a one shot stop but the amimal probably suffers more then the Heart/Lung combo as he, eventhough paralized has to drown on its own blood.


Think about it, out of the Millions of hunters less than 1 percent could repeat with precision and accuratly make the shots your talking about, the other 99 percent would just make a mess. </div></div>
I+1000000 could not have said it better.

 

[Sendero_Man]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

agreed with George ! great answer.

In all my years of guiding and hunting, I would never tell a client to take a neck shot. Very low success rate and smallest kill zone. The high shoulder shot breaks them down. Period.

 

[JSTARSZ]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

you have got to play the percentages when it comes to hunting. If given the opportunity I always go for the heart/lung combo but I have had to resort to the neck shot because that was all that I had. Where I hunt it is hilly and lots of trees and bushes even in winter. So far, I have never lost a deer - hit some wood. I think you have to ensure that you are a thoughtful hunter and don't lose sight of the end result - harvesting the animal that you are after. I always play it safe to eusure I hti what and where I aim.

 

[Salmo22]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF everyone started taking Head/Neck shots there would be alot more wounded and unrecovered animals out there, Pretty much dead oppisite of your summory.

Neck: In the neck you have a 3" area that incapacitates everything else is tissue, hit one in the throat it will run a mile or 2 and then die.

Head : Brain and stem about 4-5 inches, the rest is bone and cartiladge, hit the mouth, nose, ears, jaw your just going to permanently maim the animal or kill it very slowly and horrificly. Added the fact that over 60 percent of hunters are hunting for both Trophies and Meat the head shot pretty much blows a nice headmount/shouldermount out of the picture.


Best shot is a Heart/Lung combo they are dead within 20-30 seconds even if they run off they are always found as the blood trail is easy to follow. Better shot is possibly a high shoulder shot where you get the spine and lungs both. This shot is always a one shot stop but the amimal probably suffers more then the Heart/Lung combo as he, eventhough paralized has to drown on its own blood.


Think about it, out of the Millions of hunters less than 1 percent could repeat with precision and accuratly make the shots your talking about, the other 99 percent would just make a mess.</div></div>
Dear George:

I appreciate your comments. Let me clarify some of my thoughts.

You produce some of the finest, most accurate and precise rifles on the planet - I hope to have you build me one someday. Your rifles are more than capable of making the type of neck shot I'm suggesting. At the end of the day, it seems we are saying that the majority of hunters are not prepared to make this type of shot. Maybe they simply won't invest the time at the range to hone their shooting skills or maybe they've got the wrong tool for the job. Either way, because we contend that most hunters are <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">not</span></span> capable of a clean neck shot, are these same folks any more prepared to center punch the heart/lung or high shoulder?

It seems to me what we are really supporting is the reality that if the hunter misses the heart/lung area, he/she is likely to hit something in the "body" region and (with some effective tracking) the animal will eventually be found. Maybe I should have done a better job of titling my post? What I am really suggesting is the notion that most hunters need to spend more time at their local ranges fine tuning their shooting skills and developing rifle/load combinations that yeild the greatest accuracy.

I understand the motivation of the trophy hunter and avoiding damage to the mount? Maybe I should have left the head shot out of this discussion - sorry.

Finally, I will respectfully disagree with you on your 3" neck area comment. I have had enough experience with neck shooting both large and small game that I believe the right bullet weight/performance will instantly kill without hitting the spine. It has been my experience that the hydraulic shock wave created by a neck shot with the right bullet will do sufficent brain and spine damage to cause an instant kill. If you are shooting a bullet that does not expand properly for the size of game you are hunting, then you can certainly punch a small hole that will not humanely kill the animal - no don't about it.

I find it interesting that this is a forum that dedicates itself to (among many cool things) a high level of accurate shooting. I've read the posts about how many (if not most) forum members have worked hard and long to develop weapon/ammo combinations that will hit small targets with surgical precision. With all this money and time invested, why do we enter the hunting field and change our thought processes? Don't we trust our weapons or skills?

Just one mans opinion.

Thanks again for the comments - good food for thought.

 

[montyb]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmo22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems to me what we are really supporting is the reality that if the hunter misses the heart/lung area, he/she is likely to hit something in the "body" region and (with some effective tracking) the animal will eventually be found. </div></div>

no, really we are talking about shooting for the 8" kill zone, not the 2"-3" kill zone. we are looking for the shot you can make 100% of the time IN THE FIELD, not one you can usually make on the range.

 

[Cserv]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I do not have near the skill level that alot of the shooter's here posses, but I've never lost a deer to a heart/lung shot or a high shoulder shot(that drops them on the spot). None have traveled more than 20-50yds, and the shot helps bleed them out( at least in my exp.)which helps in the processing for the table. Just my .02

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

High shoulder shot has a much higher kill percentage (heart, shoulder, neck, lungs, spine) than the neck/head shot (brain, artery, spine). I prefer taking the meat off of the neck when i de-bone than the shoulder meat. Its better meat and there is more of it. I think animals that are kept for commercial sales are treated worse than the game i shoot in the woods. Instant incapacitation would be nice but wounding it would be worse. I always choose the high percentage shot.


I spend alot of time doing load developement, practicing at the range, practicing under field conditions, and shooting competitions. I agree that more hunters need to spend time honing their marksmanship skills (i have seen alot of bad shots in the field). But that is exactly WHY i take the high shoulder shot. I feel that responsible ethical hunting means taking the highest percentage shot possible. If i can get prone, inside 500 yards, and take a high shoulder shot i feel very comfortable that i am coming home with meat.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmo22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My father raised me to neck shoot all the game I've ever hunted.

I don't want to sound like some kind of bleeding heart, but I wonder why the focus on shooting game animals through the heart/lungs?

I will be very interested to see how others feel about this.

</div></div>

1. the neck shot is not a high percentage shot for the average or even many proficient shooters. more chance of someone injuring an animal.

2. heart shot - they can't live / go too far if there's no blood pumping
lungs (particularly double lung) can't run if they can't breathe. ever fall on your ass and get the wind knocked out of you? same kind of deal. plus the lungs spurt the red stuff out further and more of it than many other shots, by actually blowing out blood with every breath.

just because you can hit 'em in the neck or even in the hea, doesn't mean you should.

 

[Salmo22]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no, really we are talking about shooting for the 8" kill zone, not the 2"-3" kill zone. we are looking for the shot you can make 100% of the time IN THE FIELD, not one you can usually make on the range. </div></div>
No doubt, the heart/lung area is a larger target than the neck. Do you think it is "buck fever" that causes an accurate range shooter to have difficulty in the field? I often hear of pro golfers who can't take if from the practice range to the course - is this a problem for some in hunting? If it is some type of buck fever, the 8" kill zone can be difficult to hit also - I know from personal experience as a young man many years ago

How do we translate range precision into field accuracy? Or is that even necessary?

 

[Salmo22]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

High shoulder shot has a much higher kill percentage (heart, shoulder, neck, lungs, spine) than the neck/head shot (brain, artery, spine). I prefer taking the meat off of the neck when i de-bone than the shoulder meat. Its better meat and there is more of it. I think animals that are kept for commercial sales are treated worse than the game i shoot in the woods. Instant incapacitation would be nice but wounding it would be worse. I always choose the high percentage shot.


I spend alot of time doing load developement, practicing at the range, practicing under field conditions, and shooting competitions. I agree that more hunters need to spend time honing their marksmanship skills (i have seen alot of bad shots in the field). But that is exactly WHY i take the high shoulder shot. I feel that responsible ethical hunting means taking the highest percentage shot possible. If i can get prone, inside 500 yards, and take a high shoulder shot i feel very comfortable that i am coming home with meat. </div></div>
Great graphics MuleHunter. They really illustrate your point. Your suggestion that the high percentage shot is more ethical is very interesting to me. Because of the very effective kills I've seen via neck shots, I've always thought the opposite. Now you've got me thinking about the high shoulder shot. It appears you could achieve a devistating kill via the high shoulder even if you are off a little one way or another. Bone fragmentation into the vitals, incapacitation of the front legs, spine damage, etc.

Thanks much for this thoughts. Your illustrations really help me see the alternative to a neck shot. BTW, I did not know about the meat on the neck. I'm going to give that a try next time I've got a deer hanging.

Take care.

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

just to throw a wrinkle in the whole mix, I have only lost one deer in 20+ years of killing the tough bastards. It was with a..........shit it was with both shots on the same damn animal!

1st shot 80yrds with .270(hunting amo) high shoulder. Bang down he goes.

while there, he tries to get up. my cosin happened to be with me and has a .223 so......

I put one in the back of the neck 4 inches from the base of the skull at point blank.

Ok now he's dead right, so I put the guns down and take my gear off.

Then that fucker gets up and hawls ass!!!!!!!!

I never found that damn deer.

Probably one in a million but neither shot was a one shot kill, go figure.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

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How do we translate range precision into field accuracy? Or is that even necessary?

could be the buck fever phenomenon, however if one spends the amount of time scouting and doing his / her homework, they are more accustomed to controlling they're emotions better, to reduce the buck fever.

let's put the whole thing in perspective:

you just came home from work, for some reaon you are carrying you run in, your wife is murdered, the cat is molested, lord only knows where the kids are. you see the guy about to jump out the window, you grab your pistol.

are you going to take a neck shot or center mass to the vitals?

i've shot several dozen deer, a few bear, and many other things both with rifle and bow, double lung usually, heart sometimes. never had to take a second round, the only tracking i did was about 120 yards, no wounding losses.

center mass to the vitals takes out doubt.

 

[Salmo22]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">let's put the whole thing in perspective:

you just came home from work, for some reaon you are carrying you run in, your wife is murdered, the cat is molested, lord only knows where the kids are. you see the guy about to jump out the window, you grab your pistol.

are you going to take a neck shot or center mass to the vitals?</div></div>
Interesting scenario TP. After I empty my clip into his center mass, I would reload and put a couple up his arse just to make sure - I wouldn't want him to suffer

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

i don't know if the taxidermist can fix that!

 

[jeffbird]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I've seen a lot of deer shot in the mid- and upper-neck and they drop, but they often continue to flop around which makes me sick to see.

I really prefer a shot that just turns out the lights and they collapse where they stand and do not twitch when they drop.

This is my preferred shot placement unless they are far out and it's windy. The goal is to avoid the shoulder blade and to hit the upper thoracic spine where it joins the neck. I use match bullets fwiw. Sorry I've posted this picture before, but it's handy to illustrate the shot. If it's farther out and windy, then I go high and on the rear curve of the shoulder, which is the same effect, but there is more margin for error in windage.

 

[Sendero_Man]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

high shoulder shot....

115 Dtac MATCH bullet ...

that is right, they kill... and well.

 

[RBros]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

High shoulder shots have always worked for me.....close range to 1170yds, they all have dropped where they were standing. I use match bullets also fwiw. Being a bowhunter also, double lunging is what a person strives for, but high shoulder shots break animals down in a hurry and really does destroy vitals with bone fragments. Just my opinion and what works for me.

 

[Salmo22]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

See, I always learn something in a lively debate. This high shoulder shot looks to kill just as swiftly as my beloved neck shot - thanks for the education.

As a side note, after all my typing on this issue last night, I turned on the TV and watched the movie "Terminator Solution" on my 73" "big screen". It was being shown in HD on HBO. Since the wife is out of town, I turned up the surround sound and had a great time eating popcorn, scratching my nuts and yelling at the TV.

Unfortunately, in one of the first scenes of the movie my long held opinions on the neck/head shot was severly challenged. John Connor was being assualted by a terminator that was missing its lower half. Connor must have shot this sucker 100 times in the head before it died. I'm starting to think that when it comes to a terminator, I should consider a center mass shot instead of the neck/head

 

[psinclair]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

Broadside lung shot with a 30/06, 180gr Accubond. He went less than 75 yards.

High shoulder shot...he went nowhere.

Lunged at 300 yards..

Lunged bull elk..

Wyoming black bear taken broadside through the ribs at 530 meters, he made it maybe 50 after the hit.

I dont advise neck shots on anything. I've seen plenty of botched neck shots that turned into disasters. I'm always leary of animals that drop in their tracks....it doesnt always mean they stay there.

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

PSG that Muley is stupid big, nice job.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

PGS, what was the weight on that black?

 

[psinclair]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I had no way to weigh him as I was 6 miles from the road.

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

A deer that is standing broadside can lift or lower its head fairly quickly making a neck shot even more of a gamble. I hunt deer with a 7mm rem mag and a 168 BTHP through the shoulder has never let me down. Usually they drop in their tracks, but a few have ran 10 yards. The neck shot works and I have taken some does that way, but I usually go for the shoulder shot.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I will have to disagree with the high shoulder shots.
There is an area between the top half of deer that I call no mans land If you hit too far back or just clip lung and do not get spine the animal is gone. I have not had this experience, but I have seen many guys in camps do this. Some time the animal is recovered and some time not.
IMHO. The only way to kill 100% is take out lungs next to shoulder. Yes they will run, but they are dead. They also give a blood trail that a color blind man can follow. Also, use a bigg enough Caliber to Hammer the animal.

 

[bigtater80]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

wow those elk are a couple beauties. I'd give up parts of my anatomy for a shot at one of them. +1 on the shoulder shot. Bigger target is better when you factor in nerves. I missed my first buck completely at less than 50yds when I was a young buck but he stopped at about 275 and a shoulder shot anchored him. The fever is a beast! I got a bud who can punch paper but if its got horns he shoots like shit. This will be my first season in a long time and imma bust shoulders. Gonna leave the neck shots to you guys with ice in your veins.

 

[SavageSlayer]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmo22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It seems to me what we are really supporting is the reality that if the hunter misses the heart/lung area, he/she is likely to hit something in the "body" region and (with some effective tracking) the animal will eventually be found. Maybe I should have done a better job of titling my post? What I am really suggesting is the notion that most hunters need to spend more time at their local ranges fine tuning their shooting skills and developing rifle/load combinations that yeild the greatest accuracy.

</div></div>

This is a nice idea but the reality is most hunters aren't as serious about accuracy as most of us here on the hide. I would venture to say that 60% or more of the people who hunt deer and other big game only pull out thier rifles once or twice a year. Most shoot mass produced off the self ammo and do not reload and are not interested in developing an accurate load for their rifle. Also, most of these hunters are probably content with 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards.

That being said, the heart/lung/shoulder kill zone on a deer is roughly 10 to 12 inches in diameter. That leaves a lot of room for error for the average hunter. We have to also remember that many of these hunters are shooting in areas where a 100 to 150 yard shot would be the limit and be considered a long shot. I would say many hunters are using old rifles handed down to them that are completely stock. The good majority of them 30-30's, 30-06's, and .270's and proabably many with open sights.

I am not excusing anyone to be a "bad shot." I belive as hunters it is our ethical duty to make the best, most accurate, and cleanest shot that you are presented with and if you are not presented with the right shot then you don't shoot. The heart/lungs/shoulder is the largest target and most forgiving on any big game animal in North America and with good reason it is and should be the "go to" shot for most hunters.

 

[Ghogs Nightmare]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I shot my first deer with a neck shot this past season. It was at last light and it stepped out from some thick stuff as I was stepping away to leave for the day. The 168amax did its job tore through the neck like me through a chicken wing and actually hit the spine as well(after passing through, was on a down hill angle). It traveled aproximatley 2ft (standing to ground), it was nice and quick.
.
HOWEVER, I do respect the critters I hunt and dont like to see them suffer. As many folks here I also like to be as accurate as possible. I prefer the heart/lung as I know its a guaranteed kill. The neck/high shoulder has to many "what if" possibilities. So my bullet or arrow will be heading for the H/L given the chance. The initial example only offered the head on shot as it stepped, turned and looked at me..might've been the safety clicking off that gave a hint (didnt ease it off as I usually do.) Well no worries it didnt last to get educated, but it did get refrigerated.
.
SO shoot where is most effective (safe and high probability of kill) is my belief and use enough to be effective.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

Salmo22,
There is a big differance between shooting in prone, or on a bench at paper or steel.
Shooting at an animal that is moving, or has the chance to move is another deal all together..
There is even a differance at where you hunt. ie.. in the woods of the east, In God's country called Texas..) lol...lol.., Out west in the mountains.
These areas also produce differant type of shots. ie... sort 50 yds, 500 yrds, high angle shots. Kneeling, prone, standing. ( truck , Disclaimer***** only where it is allowed.)
There are also differant size animals a Mooses neck is way bigger than a whitetail...A duiker give you a 1" neck shot.
I learned when playing Basketball ( before cigarcop comments, Yes even I did have more than a 2" vertical jump in College.), When on defense look at the body not the head. It is kinda the same with animals. The body will be at differant angle but will typically give you a big area to shoot at. ie... quartering away, or quartering toward you. Take a neck shot and if the deer is looking at you you have 3-4 inches to hit neck bone. If you are off 1/2" you will hit flesh. The animal is gone.
I have only shot a neck shot once, and it was at a moose 628Yrds. I wanted him to go down. I had a great rest and a great rifle. I also new my dope....
To conclude, It is not the fact you do or do not have the ability to shoot the neck but, In the end you want to put the meat on the table. Save the small group or the risky shots for the paper or steel. Here are some of my creatures enjoy.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 17pt">One exception to rule was this animal. I shot him in the heart first, Then the shoulders second, Then at about 3 meters charging in the nose. It did stop him</span>.</span>

 

[rwood]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">agreed with George ! great answer.

In all my years of guiding and hunting, I would never tell a client to take a neck shot. Very low success rate and smallest kill zone. The high shoulder shot breaks them down. Period. </div></div>

Agreed, I've yet to see an animal walk away from that particular shot placement.

 

[mdesign]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

Yep...shooting animals in the neck is a good way to wound or cripple them if anything goes wrong. George had it right as well as all the other experienced guides/hunters that chimed in.

 

[Salmo22]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Salmo22,
There is a big differance between shooting in prone, or on a bench at paper or steel.
Shooting at an animal that is moving, or has the chance to move is another deal all together..
There is even a differance at where you hunt. ie.. in the woods of the east, In God's country called Texas..) lol...lol.., Out west in the mountains.
These areas also produce differant type of shots. ie... sort 50 yds, 500 yrds, high angle shots. Kneeling, prone, standing. ( truck , Disclaimer***** only where it is allowed.)
There are also differant size animals a Mooses neck is way bigger than a whitetail...A duiker give you a 1" neck shot.
I learned when playing Basketball ( before cigarcop comments, Yes even I did have more than a 2" vertical jump in College.), When on defense look at the body not the head. It is kinda the same with animals. The body will be at differant angle but will typically give you a big area to shoot at. ie... quartering away, or quartering toward you. Take a neck shot and if the deer is looking at you you have 3-4 inches to hit neck bone. If you are off 1/2" you will hit flesh. The animal is gone.
I have only shot a neck shot once, and it was at a moose 628Yrds. I wanted him to go down. I had a great rest and a great rifle. I also new my dope....
To conclude, It is not the fact you do or do not have the ability to shoot the neck but, In the end you want to put the meat on the table. Save the small group or the risky shots for the paper or steel. Here are some of my creatures enjoy.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 17pt">One exception to rule was this animal. I shot him in the heart first, Then the shoulders second, Then at about 3 meters charging in the nose. It did stop him</span>.</span>

</div></div>
I sincerely appreciate your comments Thuderbolt68.

That Dall's Sheep and Greater Kudu are the stuff of my dreams - what great trophies. No disrespect to your lion or wildebeest; however, I've got a very soft spot for sheep and kudu.

Although I still love my neck shot, I also think the high shoulder shot is equally effective in the swift kill department.

Thanks for sharing your comments and photos.

 

[dar1246]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I have hunted since I was little. I have shot deer in the high shoulder and they have ran in some rough timber or down some steep hills. Shot placement is to me base on how bad I need to drop the animal. The neck shot is very effective. My first deer at 12 years old was a neck shot. Drop like a rock. I kill it with a 20 gauge slug. There is a lot of things going on in the neck area that is a kill shot.

This shot is not recommend but to prove my point. Here is a bow kill at 30 yards my wife shot. She called and told me where is think she hit it. First thought was damm it> But to my surprise I trail the deer only 100 yards away. It looked like someone took a bucket of blood and just poured it where the deer ran. Remember (don't try this with a bow).

 

[montyb]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There is a lot of things going on in the neck area that is a kill shot.
</div></div>

there is also some stuff going on in there that isn't a kill shot

 

[vman]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

Great read this thread

As always PGS, some mad animals you have taken down mate.

Same goes for you Thunderbolt... however i could not drop a lion myself. Ive got a soft spot for cats.

However if it was "comin straight for us" then thats another story

 

[battson]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

Great thread.

The shouler shot has always worked best for me. I try to break the front lets at the same time, and anchor the thing to the spot.

 

[bigngreen]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

For me it depends on the animal, a deer I'll shoot in a lot more places, like the head, neck and high shoulder because there bones just aren't that heavy. I have had two neck shots fail on mule deer, one lived and he had a scare right in the center of his neck and the other died from a gun shot to the lungs. One the bullet deflected and the other the placement was 1 in low missing the bone, that deer would have died miserably if not for a good second shot, you have a 2-3 in kill zone on a neck shot.

On elk I have tried everything under the sun twice and the only 100% clean kill shots are both lungs or the heart, all else will fail if you shoot enough of them. The high shoulder shot is good if you hit them with the right bullet and do not have any deflection but like the neck shot I think the window is smaller for a good clean kill, I'm personally not good at it and I know it so I don't even take it any more. High shoulder shots to not kill out right though it looks like it does, what does the killing is the blowing up the dorsal vein that lies just under the spine, if you don't blow that you see them get up or try to move in a short time. The only elk I have had to trail for miles or lost was due to a shoulder shot going wrong, I used to see it every year when we shoot elk on the hay fields someone all ways knows better and ends up only breaking a shoulder I end up belly crawling to with in range and finishing an elk for the idiot, now I just refuse to take them, behind the shoulder or find someone else to take you!!

I am technically capable of extremely good precision shots but the deer doesn't know that, they stand at bad angle they move suddenly the wind gusts, that is why the larger, higher percentage kill zone is better not that I can't put it in a smaller area it's that I'm shooting an animal in less than ideal conditions not a stationary target on a nice shooting surface.

Showing a perfect DRT kill on tv is really just a cover story to me, I know of one big time tv show that it took several elk to get their perfect DRT kill for tv, so you see the one perfect shot and think they are elk gods but the back story is they wounded several elk taking low percentage DRT shots not 100% kill shots and guys are taking that as how to do it and when the animal doesn't eat dirt when they do it they just walk away and assume they missed because if they shoot them like the guys on tv they drop.

Lot of good post in this thread, hope I don't mess it up.

 

[maladat]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

Seems like there is a pretty fair consensus already but I'll add my experience.

For deer I shoot a 7mm-08 using the Hornady Light Magnum 139gr SST loading (box says 3000 fps, I'm sure I get less than that out of my hunting rifle, I haven't chrono'd it because I'm not going to take any shots long enough to matter). I have found this combination of relatively high velocity and an expanding bullet that retains mass pretty well to be very effective. I tend to shoot just behind the shoulder at mid-level or slightly lower and mainly take shots from 50-200 yards. I've shot one or two deer a season with this load for the last ten years and I have had exactly one run more than 25 yards (and that one only ran about 100). Mostly they take one or two steps and fall over.

This load tends to turn the lungs to paste - often the heart, too. It causes severe bloodshot in the front shoulder and destroys the rear shoulder if I shoot through the shoulder. This is why I shoot just behind. I have never had a failure to exit and the animals that have taken a short walk leave a nice blood trail from the big exit wound.

I am totally satisfied with the load and the shot placement. It leads to a humane, quick kill and is an easy shot with plenty of margin for a gust of wind or a half step while you're pulling the trigger.

 

[Nosler243Shooter]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I killed 8 deer this past season and 6 were with neck shots. I was using a 243 with 95 grain Nosler ballistic tips. I have been very pleased with it's performance. I killed 2 opening morning. The first was right behind the shoulder and the second was a neck shot. After seeing the results I went with the neck shot till the end of the season when I killed a 9 point. The ones that were shot in the neck did not run. Its all about shot placement and confidence in your ability. It is also frustrating to shoot a buck in the heart or lungs with a 30-06 and see it get up and run off. I have got confidence in a neck shot. My best and most hunted greenfield is only about 50 yards long so a neck shot is not a problem. Also I give most of the deer I kill away so any meat that I can save is a big plus. If neck shots ever start causing me a problem I will change but right now things are doing real good.

 

[EricM40]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I always shoot for the neck, or I don't shoot at all. The heart/lung vitals will do the job, but not instantly. I have never seen an animal shot in the neck get up and run off. There is so much "stuff" packed into the neck area that one shot just takes it down. I saw a deer that got shot with a 300WM on the outskirts of the heart/lung area and it decimated everything in the body cavity, not to mention I had to bring my dog out to find it because it ran so far.

If you practice taking tougher shots from different positions, then you should not have an issue with a neck shot. Also try spending some time in the woods watching animals or hunting another type of game to reduce "buck fever". Once I started hunting pigs I got my breathing under control and while I get excited when I see a deer it is not overwhelming.

If someone shot you in the neck, are you gonna get up and walk away? I say no...

 

[cwshooter]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

i've been head shooting my doe for a number of years. they dont get up.
almost all of the deer that i've chest shot have run 40 yards+. just loose a little rib meat.
shoulder shots put them down hard, but waste too much meat in my opinion.

 

[Tackleberry]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I have made head shots, neck shots and shoulders, all have worked very good. I prefer a magnum caliber and firmly believe that velocity and a heavy bullet make a huge difference. HIgh shoulder always takes out the running gear, always. I have had head shots stand up and take a few steps even with the CPU gone. Necks are very small! High shoulder rules! Back to the very beginning of this post the guys on TV do suck in their shooting skills.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: True "One Shot" Kills - Neck vs. Heart/Lung Shots

I have three deer that were down on impact, eyes open dead. All were neck shots from a 7mm remington mag @ under 170 yards.