Trump cancels pay raises for Fed employees.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wir...ay-raise-due-federal-workers-january-57504058
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wir...ay-raise-due-federal-workers-january-57504058
- Thread starter 2ndamendfan
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Literally people will be dying in the streets because of this fascist move.
I want the wasted money paid to the fbi and deep state over the past 30 years returned. All of it.
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Yep, take that money and buy more ammo with it.
Well fuck. Guess I won’t get mine in January. Sure is nice to see a little bump afterward the holidays though.
You should all quit in protest, the job market is as good as its going to get maybe you gov "workers" need to test the market to see what your skills are really worth in a company that has to turn a profit.....
I am guessing most all of you have liberal arts degrees and would not last 2 weeks flipping burgers with your entitled ass attitudes.
I am guessing most all of you have liberal arts degrees and would not last 2 weeks flipping burgers with your entitled ass attitudes.
What is a pay raise????
You guys get paid????
You guys get paid????
I work with a lot of federal/DoD employees (like, everyday) as a military contractor. I am not happy to see this, but understand why, and agree with the move.
IME, the government workers are a classic example of the Pareto Principle (80/20 rule). I know many .gov/.mil people that work their asses off...but they are the exception, not the norm. Seems like 20% of them do all the work, leaving the other 80% to playing politics and jockeying for their next promotion, all with an eye for an SES position. Fucking hacks, wasting time, money and materials to support their personal agendas rather than focusing on providing capabilities to the warfighters.
At the same time, I see those hard working ones, constantly fighting the politics and bureaucracy to make even a modest advance in capabilities; fighting internally with an anchor around their necks to get shit done. Obviously it pisses me off. Since these guys/gals could easily go somewhere else in the defense or commercial world and make better money, and have a much less stressful work environment.
The federal employment environment needs a drastic overall (like the VA just went through) and a no shit merit based promotion system based on performance results. None of the TIG/TIS bullshit from years past, where you just wait around and get promoted as people retire.
SMDH...fucking 02 thiefs....
IME, the government workers are a classic example of the Pareto Principle (80/20 rule). I know many .gov/.mil people that work their asses off...but they are the exception, not the norm. Seems like 20% of them do all the work, leaving the other 80% to playing politics and jockeying for their next promotion, all with an eye for an SES position. Fucking hacks, wasting time, money and materials to support their personal agendas rather than focusing on providing capabilities to the warfighters.
At the same time, I see those hard working ones, constantly fighting the politics and bureaucracy to make even a modest advance in capabilities; fighting internally with an anchor around their necks to get shit done. Obviously it pisses me off. Since these guys/gals could easily go somewhere else in the defense or commercial world and make better money, and have a much less stressful work environment.
The federal employment environment needs a drastic overall (like the VA just went through) and a no shit merit based promotion system based on performance results. None of the TIG/TIS bullshit from years past, where you just wait around and get promoted as people retire.
SMDH...fucking 02 thiefs....
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Look here Patel, this is an American discussion so see your way out of it. Venezuela awaits your arrival.
Govt workers should have their pay based on Customer (citizen) satisfaction. If this were the case the gov would need to reduce minimum wage. Or gov workers would actually have to do something productive.
I'll bet if you did a actual time at work study they would be working maybe 15% of the time. Or to put it another way they could not survive in the private sector.
I'll bet if you did a actual time at work study they would be working maybe 15% of the time. Or to put it another way they could not survive in the private sector.
Not that I place much faith in any of our government to do the right thing but I think it is a step in the right direction if properly implemented.
My point being and also reinforcing your statement about the 80/20 rule is raises like all other Americans in the real world should be performance based and would help weed out the parasites and nonperformers. So it should in theory if properly implemented benefit those that are not only doing their jobs but excelling at it.
Just a theory though and being government run " I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and tastes like rainbow sherbet "
Did you not read or comprehend the article ?
There is no mention of cutting salaries, though in many cases there should be.
He is just saying that the perpetual cycle of more Gov teet with less performance isn't sustainable.
How would everyone in the private sector like to see these uplifts that Gov workers get implemented accross the board, pretty much all I'm sure but again that's not really sustainable and sounds more like Socialist fairytale bullshit.
@AviCado Ummm...have you seen COLA allowances for DC? Now granted, it's hard to get six digit salaries as a .gov employee (if you don't count COLA and other add-ins), but they are hardly paid poorly for what they do. And many are over paid.
Classic example: I needed to renew my CAC (Computer Access Card). I filled out the form, had my admin send it to the appropriate government sponsor program office and wait for a response. I get a response a WEEK later, that I needed to come down and show approved forms of ID. I drive 35 mins down to the customer office. When I show up, I have to go find one particular individual to show my ID's. Once they looked at them, they shouted over a cube wall for another co-worker who could forward the form (who was out for the day) to the approver. The approver then got the form and selected "approve" which then went into the DEERS system. I then had to wait two days for the DEERS system to probagate the approved doc, and then schedule an appointment to go get my CAC ID. It took two weeks, and four government people to do what a single person could have done in 20 mins. That is what we call "white collar welfare" when we speak of government employees. Performance doesn't matter, as long as they have as many people as they can, since the higher ups are all graded on how many direct reports they have.
What it does, is cost defense contractors time, which then gets billed to the government (we don't get paid as much as the commercial world, but we ain't working for free), and then everyone howls about how much contractors cost. Well, if they didn't have us playing the same bureaucratic bullshit fuck fuck games, we'd cost a lot less, and be a hell of a lot happier to go about our jobs at a lower cost. I mean, we are legally limited in how much profit we can make. What other industry is regulated to no more than an 8% profit? DFAR 5000 needs to be scrapped...
Self licking ice cream cone...
Classic example: I needed to renew my CAC (Computer Access Card). I filled out the form, had my admin send it to the appropriate government sponsor program office and wait for a response. I get a response a WEEK later, that I needed to come down and show approved forms of ID. I drive 35 mins down to the customer office. When I show up, I have to go find one particular individual to show my ID's. Once they looked at them, they shouted over a cube wall for another co-worker who could forward the form (who was out for the day) to the approver. The approver then got the form and selected "approve" which then went into the DEERS system. I then had to wait two days for the DEERS system to probagate the approved doc, and then schedule an appointment to go get my CAC ID. It took two weeks, and four government people to do what a single person could have done in 20 mins. That is what we call "white collar welfare" when we speak of government employees. Performance doesn't matter, as long as they have as many people as they can, since the higher ups are all graded on how many direct reports they have.
What it does, is cost defense contractors time, which then gets billed to the government (we don't get paid as much as the commercial world, but we ain't working for free), and then everyone howls about how much contractors cost. Well, if they didn't have us playing the same bureaucratic bullshit fuck fuck games, we'd cost a lot less, and be a hell of a lot happier to go about our jobs at a lower cost. I mean, we are legally limited in how much profit we can make. What other industry is regulated to no more than an 8% profit? DFAR 5000 needs to be scrapped...
Self licking ice cream cone...
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Exactly maam. Fact is Gov jobs are very lucrative. Not only are the pay and benefits good you don't even have to work. But even more than that you have gov power and can use that power to convert favors to dollars. This is the big money play.
Leave the Police and Mil alone they are the only ones actually risking their lives for us. Oh and they also get the short end of the stick.
When you consider that COLA is not accounted in the reported salaries of government employees, it does matter. It skews the perception that they are grossly underpaid, which they are not. Do they get paid less? Yes. But not by much...
Average federal govt compensation for 2016 was over $127k per employee. They are overpaid. I think they'll be just fine for a year with no raise.
That does include pensions and other benefits, but for most of us private sector workers, that comes out of our normal wages anyways.
https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/federal-worker-pay
That does include pensions and other benefits, but for most of us private sector workers, that comes out of our normal wages anyways.
https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/federal-worker-pay
That's a pretty interesting read...thanks for posting that.
Most important part of the paper IMO:
"In the past, there was a view that it was a privilege for citizens to serve the public in a federal agency, and that federal pay should be fairly modest. Unfortunately, that sort of thinking has gone out the window as the federal compensation advantage has continued to increase."
Did you also see the Messiah name mentioned in there good old Barry did the same thing that Trump is now doing but I bet there wasn't any meltdowns over that.
Not that the CBO is in any way motivated to make the government look good when it comes to pay (yes, read: sarcasm).
As far as the education level of government employees goes, I know a lot of PhD's and MBA's in the government that are classic examples of "people educated beyond their intelligence". ..Says the high school diploma wielding, knuckle dragging grunt (me), that has somehow managed to move beyond what statistics would tell you is achievable without a college piece of paper that hangs on the wall.
Trust me Avi, pay based on education level (in the commercial or non-government world) gets you your first job, and nothing more. Performance, experience and competence determines your height of success (unlike the government) to a much larger degree.
As far as the education level of government employees goes, I know a lot of PhD's and MBA's in the government that are classic examples of "people educated beyond their intelligence". ..Says the high school diploma wielding, knuckle dragging grunt (me), that has somehow managed to move beyond what statistics would tell you is achievable without a college piece of paper that hangs on the wall.
Trust me Avi, pay based on education level (in the commercial or non-government world) gets you your first job, and nothing more. Performance, experience and competence determines your height of success (unlike the government) to a much larger degree.
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Ah yes the CBO, you're talking about the office tasked to make government spending look good right?
Anyways if you look at the citations in the paper, most of the statistical data comes from the government's own numbers.
Is your suggestion govt. employees are overeducated as well? And as a result need to be overcompensated in order to pay off their student loans that were financed by, guess who? Because if that's what your saying I think we agree.
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Active duty pay is merit based. Poor performers don't get promoted. Like any other system' some chaff gets though.
So with all these highly educated people running the Govt why do they do it so badly? They can't figure out how many PHD's to send to change a bulb. So with the committee process and all the brains they figure out it cost's $3428.00 to aquire the new bulb (overhead included). Then another $6784.28 in PHD labor to get it done. That's Govt efficiency.
Avi do you work in Govt?
Do you understand what "COLA" for the military and government is? Hint: It isn't Cost Of Living Adjustment.
Also, please don't tell me you think that compiled numbers can't be calculated to include a bias. ???
No, but for every judge and federal prosecutor there are probably 3-5 more civilian lawyers. Accountants? Have you seen the tax code? Methinks you're logic is flawed and you never have worked for the government...which kind of makes your argument based on theory...or bullshit. Whichever you prefer.
Which kind of proves my point. You have no fucking clue what we're talking about. COLA is a COST Of Living Allowance for those that live in high cost areas. It is NOT counted as part of their base pay, since they could move or be transferred to a lower cost area. Hence it is NOT calculated in the total numbers of salaries in comparison to civilians, and therefore skews the reality of what they actually take home in pay. Ask me how I know...
So, who the fuck is making up numbers now genius boy?
What I'm telling you, and I'll spell it out slowly, is that COLA is a term WIDELY in use within the government and military, that most who work with the government understand (not some obscure meaning not in common usage, though it is apparently not in your egocentric world's usage). And that if CBO omits that on the grounds that it is not part of the base pay scale, than the numbers it puts out (based only on the pay scale) are skewed, since they do not show the ACTUAL take home pay of many government employees (and yes, DC is a high cost area).
So, before you try and claim you have facts, make sure you have ALL the facts. Not just the ones that support your ill informed, misconstrued, and myopic understanding of the inner workings of the government compensation puzzle.
Are you seeing the flaw in your argument yet?
Don't get me wrong, the government employees don't get paid as much as civilians. But they also incur less unemployment risk (like none), have no risk of firing for all but the most egregious violations of ethics, and have to in no way perform at all to get a raise or promotion. Less risk=less reward.
My point is, they do get compensated very well for what most of them do (which is less than stellar work most of the time), but it hurts/screws the good ones that are there for something other than money or power. I can't count how many friends I have that were once .gov and left in frustration (hell, my wife is one of them; the Pentagon is rife with some of these government cretins, and she could only take it about a year after she retired from the military).
So, before you try and claim you have facts, make sure you have ALL the facts. Not just the ones that support your ill informed, misconstrued, and myopic understanding of the inner workings of the government compensation puzzle.
Are you seeing the flaw in your argument yet?
Don't get me wrong, the government employees don't get paid as much as civilians. But they also incur less unemployment risk (like none), have no risk of firing for all but the most egregious violations of ethics, and have to in no way perform at all to get a raise or promotion. Less risk=less reward.
My point is, they do get compensated very well for what most of them do (which is less than stellar work most of the time), but it hurts/screws the good ones that are there for something other than money or power. I can't count how many friends I have that were once .gov and left in frustration (hell, my wife is one of them; the Pentagon is rife with some of these government cretins, and she could only take it about a year after she retired from the military).
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That is just flat wrong.
Wage versus bare wage maybe in some scarce areas but even wrong mostly on that.
People above mentioned pensions and benefits and they are correct.
Warm up your Google Fu and see how many defined benefit pension plans outside of government jobs and unions there are. Damn few and those are being phased out. Why? Returns, longevity and the sequence of returns on investments during withdrawal. Not to mention underfunding during working years.
The corporate employee cannot hope to match the pension even using the same contributions. Just doesn't work. Mathematically or any other way.
Take a worker making 60k. If they get say 60% in pension you come up with 36k. With no COLA, benefits etc it takes 900000 just to provide that over a 30 year period. (Yes, I know you can annuitize it at higher rates but hitting zero is not what pension administrators want).
Raise the highest 5 working years and it goes up significantly.
900 grand. No big deal right? Problem is those plans don't have 900000 allocated for that employee. Most of them are proud to report they're 60% funded. In late 08-09 quite a few systems were below 50%.
Now take that times hundreds of thousands or millions of employees. It's unsustainable long term.
You want to talk about a Ponzi scheme? Shit.
Duplicate that and the amount they pay for benefits in the private sector. Other than very isolated, excellent, generous companies it can't be done.
I wish no one ill nor do I have an axe to grind here.
BUT.....I'm glad he did that.
Nobody goes into federal employment (below SES level with a private sector agenda in their future) to get rich. They do it to make what is across the board known to be a solid job that does not feel the effects of economy flux, that carries excellent benefits for what is often general labor positions, and most of all for the retirement benefits that are largely unmatched outside of the public sector. Pay disparities are a moot point when private sector has to deal with economic downturns, whereas .gov entered into a double digit percentage hiring boom at the last recession. Intangible benefits become very tangible in a recession.
COLA... A very small portion of the AD military receives COLA. The several base closures over the last few decades did away with the majority of bases CONUS that members experienced a need for COLA. OCONUS is a different matter as those postings are for strategic reasons (AK, HI, JP, DE, etc.). Even still, many of those can and should be realigned as well, starting with our bases in Germany and the UK that serve no purpose any longer, other than falling into the old pitfall of "That's just the way we've always done it, so....".
As for the subject at hand, I can't say I totally agree with a pay freeze, as I am a believer in inflation based pay increases, albeit little to nothing more unless market factors require increases to maintain necessary staffing levels. What .gov needs is an across the board hiring freeze for all sub-departments that don't directly relate to public safety or national security, and a huge team of "The two Bobs" to do away with its massive glut of unnecessary employees and gross inefficiencies.
But, if a pay freeze gets government spending a bit under control, I'll consider it a start.
COLA... A very small portion of the AD military receives COLA. The several base closures over the last few decades did away with the majority of bases CONUS that members experienced a need for COLA. OCONUS is a different matter as those postings are for strategic reasons (AK, HI, JP, DE, etc.). Even still, many of those can and should be realigned as well, starting with our bases in Germany and the UK that serve no purpose any longer, other than falling into the old pitfall of "That's just the way we've always done it, so....".
As for the subject at hand, I can't say I totally agree with a pay freeze, as I am a believer in inflation based pay increases, albeit little to nothing more unless market factors require increases to maintain necessary staffing levels. What .gov needs is an across the board hiring freeze for all sub-departments that don't directly relate to public safety or national security, and a huge team of "The two Bobs" to do away with its massive glut of unnecessary employees and gross inefficiencies.
But, if a pay freeze gets government spending a bit under control, I'll consider it a start.
After the CBO factored PPACA and it's impact I wouldn't trust them to figure bus fare.
Politicians quote and use the CBO until it goes against something they want.
They are frequently way,way off in their estimations and by the way, that's what their numbers are; estimates.
You ask others for numbers, you give some.
What factors did they use?
What different variables are in their equation? (Changing one variable changes the entire outcome, change two and your output is bullshit)
Timeline and horizon?
I can go on and on...,
I would add the USPS people, they are probably the hardest working people in government beside a cook in the army.
Sometimes. This year's cola amounts to about 1.5 tanks of fuel per month for an E-4. You drag your snowflake ass back and forth around the world while leaving your family behind. These kids earn every dime they don't get.
...and please don't try to keep up.
Avi the point is if the govt were a private corp they would replace three of those PHD's with one hard working person. Who would get more done for 1/4 the price of three PHD's. Because working for Sam means you don't really have to work. Those three PHD's spend more time justifying their existence than doing anything productive for us.
Never mind that the cost of paying government employees has little to do with the overhead required to employ them. In many instances the buildings, property and infrastructure is completely paid for, since the government owns it. That alone should lower the wrap rate, and therefore the amount paid by tax payers should be lower since the burdening of labor should be much lower. It'd be interesting to see those numbers...
Interesting observation.
I live in the country in rural Arkansas. My mail gets delivered 6 days a wk to my mailbx. I do not want or need my mail delivered daily. Twice a wk would be plenty sufficient. Oh! I have just laid off 2/3 rural mail carriers!! And no one gives a shit. Now do we need to talk about the Corp of Engineers too?? Another epic waste of money!!
Avi this entire conversation is about as productive as a Federal employee. I don't think the lack of a raise will cripple these PHD's. But I do think just the thought of Trump being successful cripples you. Utopia has never and will never exist. You will never lift the poor by bringing down the rich.
Those folks work for us...we set the pay scale. If they don't like it, quit.
Those folks work for us...we set the pay scale. If they don't like it, quit.
D
Deleted member 10043
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A lot if stereotyping and the mistaken belief that a taxpayer actually has some sort of control over an outcome or a set of standards. Government employees are so compartmentalized that each unit is its own little kingdom. Some units are better than others and the good ones are mostly ignored because management is wasting all its time and resources on the bad ones. A taxpayer has no control over the fact that it takes about three years to fire a total fuck up. And that is only if they do everything right. Why? Because management finds it easier to move them up to their own level of incompetence. Thus, the worst government employees are in management. As taxpayers, I wish you all had more control over that.
Hopefully Trump changes that 3 year time frame and fires whole departments en mass.
Sure shit on the niggers. The SES motherfuckers who are the real enemy get their $150+ K a year. Keep fucking with the E-6 in supply and see how that works. Just my observation....
Anyone care to understand or appreciate the process involved to remove a "permanent" position federal government employee for poor performance or incompetence.
It's a huge obstacle for a hiring authority or supervisor...nearly all individual incompetence gets recycled within the government machine.
Until they reform that part of government jobs...the 20% are going to do 80% of the work. The other 80%...will collect checks and benefits and work on thier "career".
It's a huge obstacle for a hiring authority or supervisor...nearly all individual incompetence gets recycled within the government machine.
Until they reform that part of government jobs...the 20% are going to do 80% of the work. The other 80%...will collect checks and benefits and work on thier "career".
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One of the biggest fundamental changes that could reform government efficiency and curb empire building, is how annual funding is accounted for.
Very few government organizations are enabled to "save" money from a previous FY and roll into the current FY. This creates a culture of empire building and justification. Most organizations are spring loaded into growth and expansion of roles or capabilities, instead of focusing on internal efficiency's, nearly every govt org is looking to scrapping to justify it's existence and relevance in order to maintain previous funding levels.
It's punitive to do more with less from FY to FY.
It's a system doomed to a fate of inefficiency.
But we like it that way.....or we'd demand better of our government. Only recently has that movement...of demanding better/more of our government received any visibility or political traction.
Very few government organizations are enabled to "save" money from a previous FY and roll into the current FY. This creates a culture of empire building and justification. Most organizations are spring loaded into growth and expansion of roles or capabilities, instead of focusing on internal efficiency's, nearly every govt org is looking to scrapping to justify it's existence and relevance in order to maintain previous funding levels.
It's punitive to do more with less from FY to FY.
It's a system doomed to a fate of inefficiency.
But we like it that way.....or we'd demand better of our government. Only recently has that movement...of demanding better/more of our government received any visibility or political traction.
The poor preformers and incompetents are the supervisors, if they get caught screwing up
Too bad they just get moved not fired. They don't have to perform, just know who to suck.
That goes for dod contractors as well.
I feel that the only people this will effect that I give a shit about is young sevice members.
Too bad they just get moved not fired. They don't have to perform, just know who to suck.
That goes for dod contractors as well.
I feel that the only people this will effect that I give a shit about is young sevice members.
Cut the budget by % and let the manager figure out who gets paid and who doesn’t. The USPS and the MIL are really the only real essential services provide by the Feedgov, the rest is a massive drin on our resources and a threat to our freedom and Constitution. They look upon the taxpayer as actual tax slaves, they view us in utter contempt. Its time for a tax revolt.
D
Deleted member 10043
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The manager was promoted to his level of incompetence. You really want him making decisions?
Ahhh, the ever endearing Peter Principle. Alive and well within the US government.
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