Try unsupported prone.

[Sterling Shooter]

All,

The proper implemention of the elements and factors of a steady position, it seems to me, cannot be fully recognized when the novice shooter begins his marksmanship journey with a bipod and rear bag. Shooting from the unsupported position will reveal, with practice, the importance for muscular relaxation, bone support, and NPA; as well as the need for consistent stockweld, elbow placement, grip, butt-to-shoulder, and non-firing hand placement. Perhaps some others here have thought about this step to becoming a "good shot" being somewhat overlooked.

 

[jolofree]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Sterling, Unsupported in this case would be with or w/o a loop sling?

 

[Graham]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps some others here have thought about this step to becoming a "good shot" being somewhat overlooked.</div></div>Overlooked by <span style="font-style: italic">whom</span>?

I attended at least two matches this year where at least one of the stages in each match required a version of 'unsupported prone' - meaning lying on the ground and shooting without using the bi-pod as a bi-pod and with the rifle being too low to the ground to permit use of a rear bag.

Just because one does not think something is happening does not mean that it is not happening.

 

[Mactrev]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Started shooting my new AR15 -Rainier Arms RUC about a year ago. This was the 1st rifle I have ever shot. Have around 1,000 rounds through it at my farm and most shots taken are unsupported prone with iron sights only. The other day I picked off 3 golf balls in a row at 25 yards unsupported prone and it made my day . Now only if I can do this at 50 yards .

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trooper #40</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, Unsupported in this case would be with or w/o a loop sling?</div></div>

I'm alluding to shooting without any artificial support, just bone. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps some others here have thought about this step to becoming a "good shot" being somewhat overlooked.</div></div>Overlooked by <span style="font-style: italic">whom</span>?

I attended at least two matches this year where at least one of the stages in each match required a version of 'unsupported prone' - meaning lying on the ground and shooting without using the bi-pod as a bi-pod and with the rifle being too low to the ground to permit use of a rear bag.

Just because one does not think something is happening does not mean that it is not happening. </div></div>

I should have been more articulate in my opening post, I'm suggesting to folks who are just getting into it, in the context of basic marksmanship practice, that the effect of properly or improperly implementing the elements and factors of a steady position from unsupported prone can be easier to recognize than beginning with any artificial supports, which may mask the gross effect.

I think that when a shooter becomes aware of the consequence of improperly implementing the elements and factors of a steady position the shooter will be more cognisant of these elements and factors when using artificial support in addition to bone.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Were skirting the issue. I don't consider a sling as being artificial support.

I also believe that a properly employed sling can make the unsupported prone position as accurate as, or more accurate than, using a bipod or rest, because it reduces the number of components that contribute to recoil induced dispersion.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe Carlos carried either a bipod or a rest in the field. Doesn't seem to have cramped <span style="font-style: italic">his</span> style...

Greg

 

[Graham]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

What was taught as basic riflery after WWII and before Gulf War I is no longer current except in terms of its contribution to the basic building blocks of marksmanship. The emphasis on using a sling to shoot with is now placed on what a sling is best at: Quickly adding stability in the sitting and kneeling positions.

There's nothing wrong with learning any formal target shooting stance or position for sporting purposes. If you shoot in formal NRA disciplines you will be required to adopt that position and you won't be permitted to shoot the stage in any other position.

But as a practical matter, soldiers (and practical precision rifle shooters) no longer sling-up to shoot prone, the same way we no longer cant the body or raise a leg. Technology has improved, tactics have changed, and the discipline has moved forward.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Greg,

I hope this thread does not digress to the virtues of using a sling, but, I agree with all you have said. I'm just attemting to raise awareness for training in the unsupported prone position as a method for understanding the importance of being congnisant for the elements and factors of a steady position. Some folks here have a multitude of questions about rear bags and bipods which overlook, I think, the basic fundementals which may be the basis of their issues.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But as a practical matter, soldiers (and practical precision rifle shooters) no longer sling-up to shoot prone, the same way we no longer cant the body or raise a leg.</div></div>

And over all marksmanship has been going south every since.

 

[Graham]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But as a practical matter, soldiers (and practical precision rifle shooters) no longer sling-up to shoot prone, the same way we no longer cant the body or raise a leg.</div></div>And over all marksmanship has been going south every since. </div></div>LOL! You may be right, but I would argue that because the military trains to the lowest common denominator it has never, at least not since the Civil War, spent a decent amount of time teaching its members marksmanship.

That's one of the reasons the Army Marksmanship Unit exists: Because most soldiers don't know how to shoot and were never correctly taught.

Sterling, don't assume that just because one shoots with a bi-pod and rear bag means the fundamentals go out the window.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But as a practical matter, soldiers (and practical precision rifle shooters) no longer sling-up to shoot prone, the same way we no longer cant the body or raise a leg.</div></div>

And over all marksmanship has been going south every since.</div></div>

Actually everything points to the opposite...

Records are being broke at breakneck speed, accuracy has been extended further,

Now whether that is the system or the shooter, you can debate, but we are doing things that were unheard of before, like hitting man-sized targets consistently beyond 1500m.

What has changed is exactly what Graham said, the way in which we approach it... no longer doing things as they were so many years ago, we have found more practical and more consistent ways of executing the firing task.

Guys can hang onto what was done many years ago, and in fact those who practice it over and it over can make it work. But at the same time you have guys coming into this, for example, straight back and not leg up and canted and are doing better faster.

This change in many opinions, is for the better... to say marksmanship has gone south ever since... well ok, in what way ?

The only way I can see it changing is people trying to "buy" accuracy. We have more people selling guys on the idea you can buy accuracy without the effort, but this has always been around. Still the people that practice and invest their time into marksmanship are doing better than ever before. Just because they choose not to shoot sling unsupported doesn't mean they are forgoing marksmanship, they are just ignoring that position... They have invested in a scope, $300 bipod, etc, so why not learn to shoot that... going backwards as a homage to 1978 doesn't really prove anything today. Takes marksmanship to hit a target beyond 1200m, 1500m, if this the focus, shooting with a sling is of little value.

I am sure in 20 years I will be bitching nobody is dialing their scope, they are pushing a button and the computer is marking the target, doping the wind, and releasing the shot. So at that point we know things have come full circle again.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

I love when SS posts, it is always about 20 years ago and things have changed. Apparently accuracy has gone downhill and is unrecoverable, although we see the records and distances get extended almost daily. I agree that all positions should be understood and practiced, but that does not mean that all will.

 

[Graham]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What has changed is exactly what Graham said, the way in which we approach it... no longer doing things as they were so many years ago, we have found more practical and more consistent ways of executing the firing task... to say marksmanship has gone south ever since... well ok, in what way? </div></div>What I find interesting about the way things are done now is the amount of elitism that has crept into the role of 'trigger-puller'.

For a military that doesn't have permanent all-the-time sniper positions, and which doesn't require years as a rank-and-file sniper before leading a sniper section, what passes for marksmanship in the grand armee is laughable in terms of the number of rounds fired and objective standards of qualification.

At the same time, the Special Forces and Rangers have probably never had it better in terms of access to equipment and to top-level marksmanship training both pre-deployment and otherwise. Like other parts of society that are also infected by business models, the military has evolved into a steep food chain, the experience of which by someone at the bottom bears no relation to the experience of the same organization by someone at the top.

The task of warfighting has also changed: When soldiers prone-out, to shoot back as opposed to simply avoiding a patch of lead-dense air, they do it with a bi-pod and bag.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Big Army is just too big and too fast moving, they don't have the time or the resources to hone the individual soldier's skill... even the AMU classes I believe are like a 20 to 1 instructor ratio, probably more so.

The SOCOM community works marksmanship so much better but they have the money and resources, still, it's one tiny part of the big picture and in many cases, sniping is just a stepping stone. Like you said, not a permanent position.

The foreign units I have worked with, where they have truly professional snipers are so much better informed and prepared for the position. They each have chronographs, computers, etc. They know their system down to the millisecond and the fps... their US counterparts, not so much. Ask a guy what his MV is, and you'd probably get a better answer if you asked him who was on the cover MAXIM last month. They are basically winging a lot of it, and even then will roll the information from one guy to the next. Unless you volunteer the process they will more than likely just skip a few steps to simply put rounds downrange.

But as you said, I have worked with units, that even on their M4s will have Atlas bipods for those times they go prone. But it's not big Army. Heck their slings they carry are not even meant for shooting from, they are carry slings, VTACs mostly, you are not "slinging" up with a VTAC, a hasty slung position at best.

Their schedules just dont' allow it, at least not the line guys.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But as a practical matter, soldiers (and practical precision rifle shooters) no longer sling-up to shoot prone, the same way we no longer cant the body or raise a leg. Technology has improved, tactics have changed, and the discipline has moved forward. </div></div>

Does this include using the 30 round mag of an AR in contact with the ground as "unsupported"?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

If it jams the rifle, that is <span style="font-style: italic">unsupported</span>, if it doesn't jam that is <span style="text-decoration: underline">supported</span>.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually everything points to the opposite...

Records are being broke at breakneck speed, accuracy has been extended further,

Now whether that is the system or the shooter, you can debate, but we are doing things that were unheard of before, like hitting man-sized targets consistently beyond 1500m.</div></div>

I'm not talking about Precision Marksman,Snipers, SDM, I'm talking the average grunt. The marksmanship as a whole has gone down hill.

Look at the difference between the Marines and Army. The Marines stuck with a version of KD qualification, the Army didn't and it shows.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You may be right, but I would argue that because the military trains to the lowest common denominator it has never, at least not since the Civil War, spent a decent amount of time teaching its members marksmanship.</div></div>

I disagree. In 1920 Congress commissioned the (then) DCM (now the CMP) to conduct small arms firing school for civilians at the National Matches.

During WWI Gen Pershing was concerned about the overall poor marksmanship of the American Soldier. He had Col Alexander J. Macnab develop a program of instruction to train our soldiers in Europe.

Prior to Macnab's POI, the average regular Army qualification was:

Expert: 5%
Sharpshooter: 20%
Marksman: 15%
Remainder Unqualified.

After Macnab's POI average qualification changed:

Expert: 25%
Sharpshooter: 40%
Marksman: 30%
Non Quals: 5%

Macnab's program of instruction is nothing more then what we call the Small Arms Firing School, held at the National Matches, and other major CMP games.

Also: After Macnab's PMI was instituted, a regulation was promulgated requiring any company commander who failed to qualify 80% of his company, to write a letter to the commanding general explaining the cause of his failure.

I find it difficult to understand when the CMP with their budget can conduct the SMFSs but the Army can't.

I was a company commander of three different companies. I was held to account for the Height & Weight Standards, and Physical Fitness, but nothing was said about percentages of qualifications, EVEN THOUGH, qualification was don't on pop targets to 300 meters.

I'm convinced if the Army was to devote 10% of the time they devote to PT, to marksmanship, things would be a lot different.

Again, I'm not talking about snipers, SDMs, and the precision marksman and HP shooters out there but the average soldier.

Regardless of what one wishes to think, Sp Ops doesn't win wars. Conventional Forces do.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Azprc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I love when SS posts, it is always about 20 years ago and things have changed. Apparently accuracy has gone downhill and is unrecoverable, although we see the records and distances get extended almost daily. I agree that all positions should be understood and practiced, but that does not mean that all will. </div></div>

20 years ago? If you read my opening post you would not make such a statement; but, I would like to know your view on the value of mastering the prone unsupported position (that means without any artificial supports) before indulging supports including bipods, sandbags, rear bags, slings or other aids. What I perceive, from reading posts here about NPA, bipods, and rear rests, is that novice shooters seem to get wrapped up with these devices without having earlier learned enough about the importance for honoring the elements and factors of a steady position to make the addition of artificial supports beneficial. At some point, I would think, these folks would discover that artificial supports are not a substitute for basic marksmanship development; but, it appears, that is not the case for some; and, for these folks, not realizing the consequence, reaching the highest plateaus of shooting excellence may not be possible.

 

[Graham]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At some point, I would think, these folks would discover that artificial supports are not a substitute for basic marksmanship development; but, others may not realize the consequence, being therefore precluded to a lower plateau of shooting excellence. </div></div>bù guan hei mao bái mao néng zhuo zhe lao shu de jiù shì hao mao.

That's Mandarin (Pinyin) for: Black or white cat matters not as long as it can catch mice.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Well; I'm sure glad to see this topic has not digressed into a dissertation on the value of the sling... LOL!

I'm also way underqualified to be speaking to changing military doctrine. It is what it is.

When we've spoken here about supported prone, I believe we've dealt with it well.

I see it, like SS, as an initial step toward understanding and progressing toward more advanced and effective means of shooting from ground level. Bipod next, rest following. They all have pro's and con's, and as a compromise that fits into a soldier's brand of mobility, the bipod gets my vote. I also recognize LL as the site's preeminent doyen on the subject of employing the bipod.

Whatever went before and whatever follows the now are interesting observations/conjectures, but we speak usefully right now about the here and now.

I think the unsupported prone is useful to know as a fallback technique, and no technique can be effective without at least a basic level of familiarity.

I think the sling provides a useful enhancement.

Personally, before my left shoulder went South, I'd have considered going out in the field without a Garand sling on my rifle to be just slightly less intelligent than going without my boots.

But that's just a 40 year-old sequence of intense learning speaking. These days, the younger among us start their lessons farther along in that sequence, and sling supported positional shooting is only occasionally still part of the lesson plan.

I believe it's disappearance could be hazardous to the overall survivability of the rank and file grunt. The rifle is his (her?) primary implement; picking and choosing how its employment can be effected speaks directly to survivability.

I like my young brethren, I want them properly prepared for their roles.

Greg

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

I am with Graham again here,

Sterling is advocating a "position" and not something attributed to marksmanship that cannot be done in any other "position"

There is no benefit to shooting unsupported prone to a shooting who will then move to supported prone. It's a different animal designed to do the same thing. In fact it will go against the elements of a good position with a bipod. (how, )

With unsupported prone most find being canted, at an angle more comfortable, so they get into that 15 degree position. With a bipod being straight is better, and manages the recoil in a way allowing the shooter to see the results of their shots, even at 100 yards.

Another thing, I never heard of an unsupported shooter managing .25" groups... so how does supported go against marksmanship and accuracy when done properly they are producing groups much more consistent and much smaller ? Take a supported shooter doing it right and there is no group analysis at 100 yards because there is only one hole in the paper. Not so much with sling shooting. Which is why almost everything uses a support except legacy stuff.

People practice sling shooting because they are either going directly in that sport, or they know it will be a legacy skill tested on some level. Usually with Tactical Shooters, the sling shooting legacy stuff is done on 18X30 targets around 400 yards. They sling up for one or two stages, small points stuff and move on. It's the exact same as practicing with the rifle laying on its side.

Being able to shoot with a sling does not mean you have superior marksmanship, just means you practiced that skill above others... because it is a position and not a statement of the fundamentals.

Each person's plateau is different, one can say benchrest is their plateau, they want to shoot a 1/3 MOA group at 1000 yards with a light bench gun. Someone else would say they want to win a Palma Championship or across the course one... just depends on their mindset. So winning at benchrest doesn't mean you need sling skills anymore than winning a Service Rifle Championship means you shoot for score off a bench. they are just different... accuracy is the same, and most people would acknowledge support lends to more (better) accuracy.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

The benefit of learning basic marksmanship from the unsupported prone position, rather than any position using supports, I think would be evident to all; but, it appears, that is not a view of others.

 

[George63]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

the value of mastering the prone unsupported position (that means without any artificial supports) before indulging supports including bipods, sandbags, rear bags, slings or other aids. </div></div>

so what is the basic strategy for this?

I have tried 2 versions, both similar to prone with sling:

1) AR with a 10 rd magazine resting on the forearm/ rearward pressure with both hands

2) bolt gun with internal magazine - very low prone - forestock resting on arm - rearward pressure with trigger hand only

I found both to be noticeably less stable than a loop sling

I have never seen any instruction/ suggestion of technique for this

 

[sinister]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Simply another skill for the entire skill set.

Teach a shooter to shoot strictly from a bipod or ruck and he may not be comfortable shooting from any off- or unprepared firing position. When you are covering others maneuvering, or having to kill a lot of knuckleheads NOW, time is money.

Train on and improve what you suck at. Some will only train what they're GOOD at and will never develop all-around skills. Your skills and capability should prepare you to counter what you think the bad guys' most likely and most dangerous actions will be.

Since many/most on this site are doing it strictly for funsies (and not likely to be shot at) it's amazing which threads and comments can generate an immediate argument drill.

I've hunted and shot both in combat and on service and National Champion teams. There really is no difference -- deliver when called on, no excuses, hit the X or kill the target you're aiming at, dark, light, hot, cold, windy, rainy, whatever -- do your job.

No one cares if you have the nicest bipod or bean bag, but they will damn sure be up your backside if you give the excuse, "I wasn't settled in yet when he ran."

 

[Graham]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Train on and improve what you suck at. Some will only train what they're GOOD at and will never develop all-around skills. </div></div>That's what I need a coach for: To push me to work on and to improve what I am not good at. The marksmanship instructors who have taught me things, like Frank and Jacob, have given me mechanisms with which to understand where my technique was inefficient and to eliminate what I was doing wrong. Those kinds of instructors are happiest when they take a skill that someone sucks at and turn it into one of their strengths.

 

[sinister]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

There are some excellent mental training programs out there as well.

One taught me to think of your lousiest position and re-tune your thinking. Instead of, "I suck at standing," I adjusted to "I LOVE offhand. I want to shoot standing as often as I can so I can be the best at it I can possibly be."

That program included snapping-in every night in coat and glove, at least three 20-shot snap sessions at a scaled target in the kitchen (a trimmed air gun bullseye clipped to a window blind about ten feet away), each snap honestly called -- "Ah hell, a nine at 9." Pretty soon those became 15 to 18 "Called" 10s and Xs.

Payoff was coming back from Iraq and without a whole lot of train-up (a couple of local Matches, the Interservice, and then boom, Camp Perry) shooting a 99 on my feet in the President's Match.

If you don't think it'll make a difference try it with your rifle (700, AI, AR-10, whatever) and then take it to the field and live-fire. Try a position besides bipod and bag or ruck.

If you want to get better at rapid-fire and magazine changes PRACTICE rapid-fire and magazine changes. If you're wedded to a bipod get off the bipod and try something else (shooting sticks or sling). Snapping-in and/or shooting through a scope will tell you a lot about your technique.

If you're a master at all BASIC techniques then post your method here for us to learn -- I always like to shoot better.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Its no problem for a shooter who learns shooting unsupported to lay his rifle on a bench, sandbag, bipod or stump and shoot.

However one trained on bipods, benches, sandbags, etc. can't as easily adapt to other methods.

 

[Jaeger308]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

I would suggest the only rifle marksmanship skill that differs between your topic is bone support. If a shooter is working on their front support skills matrix they would be able to learn everything they need, working unsupported without a sling will not give any advantage to this student and only confuse the positional differences. Should unsupported be trained with and without a sling? I say yes on their own, but in order to make the shooter a more rounded marksman as Sinister eludes too.

Poor marksmanship in the military is a topic that has been beaten more than a red headed step child over the years. The civilian world’s departure from guns and marksmanship is one cause, but also current marksmanship training is improperly handled mostly because of the cost. There still is hope however, my son earned his distinguished rifleman’s badge at the age of 16 legging out with a silver medal at Camp Perry, he shot company high in boot camp and is now serving in the Marine Corps. Another young man I worked with just graduated Parris Island, he also shot company high score. The solution is support youth programs. At this year’s national championship 20% of the CMP field were junior shooters, this is our future.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The solution is support youth programs. At this year’s national championship 20% of the CMP field were junior shooters, this is our future.</div></div>


Best post I've read in a long time.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. Try a position besides bipod and bag or ruck.

If you want to get better at rapid-fire and magazine changes PRACTICE rapid-fire and magazine changes. If you're wedded to a bipod get off the bipod and try something else (shooting sticks or sling). Snapping-in and/or shooting through a scope will tell you a lot about your technique.

If you're a master at all BASIC techniques then post your method here for us to learn -- I always like to shoot better.</div></div>

This is the thing you guys seems to be missing or not paying attention too...

People are shooting from positions other than prone in a lot of these matches, and these are worked on, just not "married to"... nobody is beating the drum that this is the end all be all... But tactical matches are about well rounded problems.

Comes from the, "we only use a sling" land, you feel that is it, except give you guys something that doesn't "conform" to the perfect position and it goes to hell and is all wrong.

Look at the AARs for the matches here, look at the position shot:

Clearly you are not paying any attention

The difference is, we realize the time and limitations to "slinging up" and would rather seek out support when given the time and opportunity.

Sling shooting is one of "many" skills, it is not the only skill worth practicing.

If you don't think guys are practicing alternate positions, slings etc, in the tactical world you are not paying attention and unfortunately because of debates like this we have learned one thing... no one of the biggest advocates of this will come out and "school" us because of one excuse or the other. Yet here are the guys pushing the envelope taking people out of their comfort zone, and still the group steps up.

Come out of your comfort zone instead of the constant advocation that everyone should be following what you do.

 

[bm11]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

I will enter into this debate with less experience than a lot in this thread.

I am all about being a well rounded shooter. I do practice a lot of different positions. However, I tend to see a number of posts by "legacy skill promoters" who spend a lot of time defending bygone skills to make legitimate the amount of time they have spent perfecting them. Why, in a tactical situation, would I spend the amount of time slinging up to develop a less steady position than a bipod that I can drop into and get out of much faster?

Just like milling a target to determine the distance. Yes I can, but much slower and less accurately than I can with a rangefinder.

The odd thing I find about most of the guys arguing about the practicality of shooting with a sling practice it with funny coat and glove on... Which to me is like spending most of your time "practicing" from a bench with a rest.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why, in a tactical situation, would I spend the amount of time slinging up to develop a less steady position than a bipod that I can drop into and get out of much faster?

The odd thing I find about most of the guys arguing about the practicality of shooting with a sling practice it with funny coat and glove on... Which to me is like spending most of your time "practicing" from a bench with a rest.</div></div>

First, if it takes that long for you to sling up, you need a bit of practice. I can certainly sling up a heck of a lot faster then I can get bipods extended.

My father taught me to use a sling long before I ever started using one in competition. Also long before I use a sling in competition I used one in tactical situations (RVN).

No law says you have can't use a sling without a coat and gloves. I don't use either while hunting, (well except when hunting in the mountains, it gets pretty nippy up there at times).

Now I really doubt I'll ever use a rifle in a "tactical" situation again, but I do hunt, and I still use slings. People seem to think that slings are for prone positions only. Not the case, While hunting I find my self shooting Kneeling more then anything else, its fast when you don't have time and it gets you above the grass and sage while antelope hunting.

If you don't think slings are worthwhile, fine, don't use them, I feel the same way about bipods, I would never use bipods in a tactical situation (again not likely to be a choice at my age), suckers almost got me killed one time. Suckers get tangled up in brush & wait-a-minute vines too easy. Even when not extended.

They arn't as slow as many people here seem to indicate. If the sling is set up right, you can have it on in the time it takes you to drop in the kneeling position.

As far as "the old ways" being obsolete, tell that to Gary Anderson, he set the Offhand ISU record in the '70s which no one has broken yet.

Slings aren't for everyone, nor are bipods for everyone.

 

[jolofree]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaeger308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would suggest the only rifle marksmanship skill that differs between your topic is bone support. If a shooter is working on their front support skills matrix they would be able to learn everything they need, working unsupported without a sling will not give any advantage to this student and only confuse the positional differences. Should unsupported be trained with and without a sling? I say yes on their own, but in order to make the shooter a more rounded marksman as Sinister eludes too.

Poor marksmanship in the military is a topic that has been beaten more than a red headed step child over the years. The civilian world’s departure from guns and marksmanship is one cause, but also current marksmanship training is improperly handled mostly because of the cost. There still is hope however, my son earned his distinguished rifleman’s badge at the age of 16 legging out with a silver medal at Camp Perry, he shot company high in boot camp and is now serving in the Marine Corps. Another young man I worked with just graduated Parris Island, he also shot company high score. The solution is support youth programs. At this year’s national championship 20% of the CMP field were junior shooters, this is our future.
</div></div>


big +1 well stated

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Kraig,

Anderson shot in the 50's, 60's and 70's and according to every search I made holds no current record.

In fact checking the NRA high power blog, this past year more than 10 records were set.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Day three. The Third day of NRA's Long Range High Power Rifle Championships. A day that will go down in the record books. For today was a day in which records were set. Records so significant that a few competitors request their targets be brought up from the Pits. Not one record. Not two records. But more then a dozen Long Range Rifle records.
</div></div>

You guys need to emerge from the 70's and get with the times. This was this year and it talks about records from the 90's as well I found references to records set in the early 2000's.

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2012/08/13/N...Perry-Ohio.aspx

The madness occurred when calculating the Herb "Doc" Aiken numbers. The Doc Aiken trophy goes to those with the top Palma rifleman (or woman) from 1,000 yards. Back in 1998, John J. Jackson set the record with a 199-8x. That record fell more then ten times today thanks to Parag Patel, Jon Underwood, Jon Rhynard, Justin Skaret, James Lewis, Owen Henry, Nathaniel Guernsey, Robert Sketetee, Norman Anderson before David Luckman of Great Britain swept in once again to set the bar ever so high at 200-13x.

Next on the block is the Wimbledon Cup. Wimbledon is a slow fire Any rifle match from 1,000 yards. The record was established back in 2004 by Michelle Gallagher. That year, Michelle capped off the match with a solid 200-16x. Unfortunately for Michelle, that record was beaten twice today by the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit. Shane Barnhart registered a 200-17x right before teammate Tyler (Ty) Cooper nailed down a 200-18x. Then things really took off.


Wake and smell the new century.

 

[firesniper27]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

I am interested in some techniques on using a sling insted of a bipod to shoot prone

 

[George63]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: firesniper27</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am interested in some techniques on using a sling insted of a bipod to shoot prone </div></div>

Google RWVA (appleseed) and sign for a shoot - fundamentals / sling / 3 positions

for reasonable $$

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Sterling,

I sense an underlying tone in your statement. You seem to think people are trying to buy accuracy with gadgets rather than learning the basics.

I have no doubt that happens in some small number of cases. But I really think those people are going to follow one of two paths. 1 Give up and do something else when buying accuracy doesn't work. 2 Learn the fundamentals (this includes using bipods or other support) and improving their shooting.

I would argue that the people that give up trying to buy accuracy would suffer the same fate if they were using a sling. They are looking for instant gratification.

As far as practice with a sling, I practice positional with and without a sling, and with and without artificial support. I do this because there are match stages that specifically require it. There are other stages where a combination of sling and barricade might provide a bit of advantage. To me, a sling is just another "tool" for support, and often used in very non-traditional ways.

Good shooting!

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig,

Anderson shot in the 50's, 60's and 70's and according to every search I made holds no current record.

</div></div>

Keep looking, Anderson still holds, or co-holds, at least one National Record. Unless, of course, you are referring only to the National Matches records, which are different. I think you may be mixing up the two.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Are you talking about his 3 position 50 meter score?

Isn't that with .22 ?

Here we are talking about 15+ plus pound bolt rifles, High Power and sling shooting and you all want to change the subject to Olympic 3 position shooting with specialized gear.

I was at least looking at the relevant High Power scores.

Hang on, let me go order a $2700 FWB or $3200 Anschultz 3 position air rifle so I can relate and learn a thing or two about the fundamentals.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Anderson shot international. Small Bore and Center fire (300 Meter).

Not conventional High Power.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

And FYI,

His score is listed as 1182, the current list of record holders shows,

Niccolo Campriani with a record score of 1287 as well a Slovak ryan Oehlers with the same score, despite what his Wiki bio says :

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anderson retired from active international competition after the 1969 World Championships in Barcelona, Spain, where his 50-meter, three-position score of 1182 was the highest score ever fired in international competition. </div></div>

This score no longer appears to be in place by at least 100 points.

I can't find any other reference to one of his records still standing?

There are current list to record holders and he is not there

 

[sinister]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Gary earned Gold in Tokyo (1964) and Mexico City (1968) setting world records in 300-Meter 3-position (centerfire) Free Rifle (any centerfire caliber, as opposed to military rifle which was a 30-caliber service cartridge). It was dropped in the 1970s as an Olympic sport although it is still an active International Military Sports Council (<span style="font-style: italic">Conseil Internationale du Sport Militaire</span>, or CISM) discipline -- Gary's record is locked in perpetuity as it is no longer a contested Olympic event.

Gary was the 1975 and 1976 Camp Perry National (bolt match rifle) Champion and the 1980 NRA National Highpower Long Range Champion.

Currently international military 3-position is standing, kneeling, and prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Shooting - Regulations for 300 Meter Military Rapid Fire Rifle</span>

5.2.3.1 Program

The 300M Military Rapid Fire Rifle-Program consists of a shooting event of 60 competition shots divided into 3 positions of 20 shots each. Each position consists of 2 series of 10 shots and is fired in the following order:

Prone: 2 series of 10 shots each. Each series in 1 minute 30 seconds.
Standing: 2 series of 10 shots each. Each series in 2 minutes.
Kneeling: 2 series of 10 shots each. Each series in 2 minutes.</div></div>

You can have a ten shot or less magazine but you have to shoot all ten rounds in two minutes in standing and kneeling. Standing is fired without a sling.

An out-of-the-box TRG-22 with iron sights is an acceptable CISM-rules rifle.

Trivia: "Mexican Match" came from the Mexico City World Cup games prior to the Mexico City Summer Games where the USAMU shooters pulled the bullets from GI Match and replaced them with Sierra 168 Match Kings -- coining the nickname "Mexican Match" ammo, very close to what is now Federal Gold Medal Match.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

According to Wiki a Hungarian holds the record in the 300m 3 position as it is still shot without the Olympic status.

I still fail to see the point, you're citing Olympic sports and winners as an example as to why you're advocating the use of a sling.

Why not cite Olympic Skeet Shooting Gold Medals ?

Clearly all you've done shown that the earlier statement that accuracy is in decline due to less sling use is wrong, as every example cited shows the records falling not only yearly, but daily during big events.

And honestly I doubt even the best are placing with a box stock TRG. Maybe if we enter the hot tub time machine with it and compete back in 1968. Then I suspect the TRG will give you a shot at qualifying, today, you better sleep with that rifle for about a year first.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling,

I sense an underlying tone in your statement. You seem to think people are trying to buy accuracy with gadgets rather than learning the basics.

I have no doubt that happens in some small number of cases. But I really think those people are going to follow one of two paths. 1 Give up and do something else when buying accuracy doesn't work. 2 Learn the fundamentals (this includes using bipods or other support) and improving their shooting.

I would argue that the people that give up trying to buy accuracy would suffer the same fate if they were using a sling. They are looking for instant gratification.

As far as practice with a sling, I practice positional with and without a sling, and with and without artificial support. I do this because there are match stages that specifically require it. There are other stages where a combination of sling and barricade might provide a bit of advantage. To me, a sling is just another "tool" for support, and often used in very non-traditional ways.

Good shooting!</div></div>

You're partially right about my tone. I see shooters who are not only aid dependent; but, because they began with aids, using them before having grasped how to build a steady position built from bone alone, they do not fully understand the steadiness which is possible from a position built on bone alone; and, without such knowledge, these shooters can not completely grasp how to integrate muscular relaxation, support, and NPA when complementing bone support with artificial supports. In these cases, the artificial aids have only served to thwart marksmanship development. It seems, in some cases, shooters posting here actually have issues which cannot be resolved since their bone and artificial support are in conflict with one another.

 

[bm11]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

I guess I somewhat see the point you are trying to make, sterling, though I'm not sure it's a valid argument. I started learning with a bipod and a rear bag, not a sling, and I would say I don't think my marksmanship suffered too much from it. I have made a cold bore hit on a man size target on my first try ever shooting at that distance (Frank was there, it was at Gunsite in October) and went on to make either first or second round hits all the way out to 2200 yards. It has been said that if you have an issue with fundamentals, it will show up at that distance, turns out I don't? I guess it's because I didn't use a bipod as a crutch, I still focused on building solid fundamentals, I paid attention during training, and I put my time in dry firing. Last time out shooting I made three for three called head shots at 948 yards on a BDS Snipershide target, not a super windy day but I was holding a half to a full mil of wind.

Point being, I'm certainly not the best this site has to offer, but I know for a fact from what I see day in and day out at the range I am MUCH better than the average shooter, and I learned most of it while prone off a bipod. I do practice other positions and I am about 95% on a 5" target while seated at 100 yards, no sling. Probably would be better if I practiced it more, but it seems to me like a different skill set that hasn't suffered too much from prone practice, in fact I would say that the confidence I have learned from being able to shoot consistanly very accurately has given me a clear mindset to be able to analyze better what goes wrong when I do miss.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you're citing Olympic sports and winners as an example as to why you're advocating the use of a sling.</div></div>

No, I'm citing Olympic Rifle shooting and pure Marksmanship Fundamentals.

Something that's needed with any shooting venue. If you get the fundamentals down with ISU fundamentals you can shoot anything.

 

[bm11]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Well, I think it is safe to say if nothing else that we agree without learning and practicing the fundamentals of shooting prone with a sling, no one is competing at a high level in slung rifle competitions.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Interesting urinating match here. Not sure why anyone would say shooting with a sling is useless, not needed, or any of that jazz. What I am sensing is a lot of uneasiness of the idea of using a sling vs dropping a rifle on a rest or bipod, etc. What I do know is that my 11 yr old son can put his rifle on a bipod or rest and hang with the grown men shooting F class matches. Has he mastered it, no, but neither have I, but even in his first match he more than held his own. He cant, however, sling up and shoot irons. He hasnt gotten those fundamentals down yet, and its going to be a while, a good while, I think.

No reason to be scared of the sling gentlemen, it doesnt bite. Yeah, its a bit more difficult to shoot that way, but if you know what you are doing you can outshoot the folks on the rests/bipod.


Now, if you dont want to use a sling and want to use an aid to hold your rifle, by all means, do so, but suggesting the sling is outdated, outmoded, or useless would be a mistake and just plain wrong.

Oh, and Kraig, Gary did, in fact, shoot conventional high power, as pointed out. He also still co-holds the offhand, 20 shot at 200 yard record. Carl tied it in 2011...was pulling the target next to his when he did it.

John

 

[Graham]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No reason to be scared of the sling gentlemen, it doesnt bite. Yeah, its a bit more difficult to shoot that way, but if you know what you are doing you can outshoot the folks on the rests/bipod.</div></div>First of all, the OP asked that this Thread not devolve into a battle over the merits of the sling. Secondly, what you are saying makes no sense. If it did you would see Benchrest shooters and PRS guys slung-up instead of using rests and bi-pods. Think about it....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems, in some cases, shooters posting here actually have issues which cannot be resolved since their bone and artificial support are in conflict with one another.</div></div>That's opinion only: There's no evidence of that.

Besides, if your 'bone and artificial support are in conflict with one another' you're doing it wrong. That means there's a shooter issue to be corrected by an instructor, not a flaw in the method.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see shooters who are not only aid dependent; but, <span style="font-style: italic">because they began with aids, using them before having grasped how to build a steady position built from bone alone, they do not fully understand the steadiness which is possible from a position built on bone alone; and, without such knowledge, these shooters can not completely grasp how to integrate muscular relaxation, support, and NPA when complementing bone support with artificial supports</span>. In these cases, <span style="text-decoration: underline">the artificial aids have only served to thwart marksmanship development.

</span> </div></div>Your conclusion I have underlined. It is based entirely on your assumption, which I put in italics.

You conclude that that because shooters don't ('fully') understand how to build a steady position 'from bone alone' they therefore can't achieve an NPA and relax when using a bi-pod. I don't see that.

I can come to any conclusion I want provided that I base it on the correct assumption for that conclusion. But where is the evidence that what you say is happening is indeed happening in real life?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

Mudcat you're part of the problem and we clearly said sling use is practiced and used, heck I even provided pictures for the thick headed.

Find one line where anyone said sling shooting is useless? Outdated, well you can debate that considering most slings used by the military are no longer designed with shooting in mind beyond the hasty.

However, show me where it is written any marksmanship fundamental is tied directly to shooting with a sling as Kraig stated.

It's like saying in order to learn follow through you have to shoot a flintlock

As if you can't practice and hone the fundamentals without a sling?

It's a position, not a fundamental.

Sounds like a similar line of bullshit the Palma guys give the FClass crowd because they use a scope or rest. And believe me I have heard that line of crap first hand. Still one could argue the FClass target has gotten smaller over the years, so.