Trying to make sense of all the different load development methods.

[Overclok79]

Hello,

I'm about to start load development for the first time with my 6.5 CM precision rifle. I've got enough components to load 1,000 rds of the following:

• Once fired Hornady Brass (leftover from factory ELD match)
• 140 ELD-M Bullets
• H4350
• Federal 210M

Going off whats in the Hornady manual:

I was planning on starting at 39.7 grs and work up in 0.2 gr increments to the max charge of 41.5 gr. To get more data, I was planning on loading 5 shots per charge weight for a total of 50 rounds. Its seems very popular to go way over this max charge weight but I'm going to play it safe. With 5 shot groups I can get a good look at group size and SD for each charge weight.

The starting overall length has been confusing me. Some people seem to chase the lands, others do not. I was thinking of going off the Hornady manual and load to a COAL of 2.800". Then after I find a charge weight that groups well with a low SD, I can fiddle around with the seating depth until I find something I am happy with. There's an overwhelming amount of information out there and I'm just looking to see if this method seems sane. I was originally going to do the 10 shot velocity ladder, but I don't feel like that gives me enough data.

I've got all of the components but I still have yet to buy a press and dies. Since anything from Forster is impossible to find, I was thinking a good 'ol RCBS Rock Chucker with Hornady match bushing dies. It also seems worth it to me to do a Lock'n Load conversion right off the bat.

 

[nn8734]

Hello,

I'm about to start load development for the first time with my 6.5 CM precision rifle. I've got enough components to load 1,000 rds of the following:

• Once fired Hornady Brass (leftover from factory ELD match)
• 140 ELD-M Bullets
• H4350
• Federal 210M

Going off whats in the Hornady manual:

I was planning on starting at 39.7 grs and work up in 0.2 gr increments to the max charge of 41.5 gr. To get more data, I was planning on loading 5 shots per charge weight for a total of 50 rounds. Its seems very popular to go way over this max charge weight but I'm going to play it safe. With 5 shot groups I can get a good look at group size and SD for each charge weight.

The starting overall length has been confusing me. Some people seem to chase the lands, others do not. I was thinking of going off the Hornady manual and load to a COAL of 2.800". Then after I find a charge weight that groups well with a low SD, I can fiddle around with the seating depth until I find something I am happy with. There's an overwhelming amount of information out there and I'm just looking to see if this method seems sane. I was originally going to do the 10 shot velocity ladder, but I don't feel like that gives me enough data.

I've got all of the components but I still have yet to buy a press and dies. Since anything from Forster is impossible to find, I was thinking a good 'ol RCBS Rock Chucker with Hornady match bushing dies. It also seems worth it to me to do a Lock'n Load conversion right off the bat.

Just do a 3-shot OCW over your chrono. Instructions are here.

monitoring for over-pressure: measure one round using a dial caliper or 1” micrometer right above the extractor groove at each charge weight before firing and take the same measurement afterwards then calculate the incremental expansion. I use a guideline of .002 expansion for my rifles as the pressure threshold. If you are running a tight match chamber you may want to use .001 or even .0005.

Physical signs of over pressure include sticky bolt/hard bolt lift, ejector impressions on brass, flattened primers, etc. Ideally, you will find an “accuracy node” at a charge weight and muzzle velocity a few tenths of a grain below your rifle’s pressure threshold with your combo of bullet, brass, powder, primer. This may or may not be below “book max”. In other words, don’t be too conservative with your charge weights. most of my loads are a little beyond most book maximums but are safe in each of my respective rifles.

Find your lands using an overall length tool with a bullet comparator along with your dial calipers. I use the Hornady OAL gauge kit with their Bushing set for measuring shoulder bump/sizing die nd then in conjunction with a Sinclair bullet comparator for measuring case head to Ogive. You will need this anyway to play with the seating depth. I’m assuming you already have these tools...if not they aren’t too expensive.

Overall length (case head to bullet tip) is only important if you need to ensure the rounds will fit in the magazineusually not an issue with bolt guns.

Edit to say I always start .030 off the lands and go from there unless I’m running a pure VLD bullet. Then I like starting at the lands.

 

[Overclok79]

Just do a 3-shot OCW over your chrono. Instructions are here.

monitoring for over-pressure: measure one round using a dial caliper or 1” micrometer right above the extractor groove at each charge weight before firing and take the same measurement afterwards then calculate the incremental expansion. I use a guideline of .002 expansion for my rifles as the pressure threshold. If you are running a tight match chamber you may want to use .001 or even .0005.

Physical signs of over pressure include sticky bolt/hard bolt lift, ejector impressions on brass, flattened primers, etc. Ideally, you will find an “accuracy node” at a charge weight and muzzle velocity a few tenths of a grain below your rifle’s pressure threshold with your combo of bullet, brass, powder, primer. This may or may not be below “book max”. In other words, don’t be too conservative with your charge weights. most of my loads are a little beyond most book maximums but are safe in each of my respective rifles.

Find your lands using an overall length tool with a bullet comparator along with your dial calipers. I use the Hornady OAL gauge kit with their Bushing set for measuring shoulder bump/sizing die nd then in conjunction with a Sinclair bullet comparator for measuring case head to Ogive. You will need this anyway to play with the seating depth. I’m assuming you already have these tools...if not they aren’t too expensive.

Overall length (case head to bullet tip) is only important if you need to ensure the rounds will fit in the magazineusually not an issue with bolt guns.

Edit to say I always start .030 off the lands and go from there unless I’m running a pure VLD bullet. Then I like starting at the lands.

I'll give 0.030" a whirl. I've got the hornady comparator for measuring the OGIVE and shoulder. I was planning on using this method to find my lands:



So expansion greater than 0.002" would be a sign of pressure? My rifle has a mechanical ejector so I can't look for marks from a traditional R700 plunger. I have also noticed at the few matches I've shot that a lot of guys are running loads that crater their primers.

 

[kindabitey]

If it's a factory R700 bolt, that hasn't had the firing pin hole bushed, cratered primers aren't unusual. In most every other action, I would consider
it a first sign of pressure.

 

[nn8734]

I'll give 0.030" a whirl. I've got the hornady comparator for measuring the OGIVE and shoulder. I was planning on using this method to find my lands:



So expansion greater than 0.002" would be a sign of pressure? My rifle has a mechanical ejector so I can't look for marks from a traditional R700 plunger. I have also noticed at the few matches I've shot that a lot of guys are running loads that crater their primers.

It depends on your rifle but .002 is a good guideline to start with. However if you notice sticky bolt or other physical signs at say, .001 then you know .0005 is likely your pressure threshold with .001 being a tad too much pressure. That’s why I like to record that measurement for each charge weight.

The nice thing with bolt guns is you likely won’t see a steep rise in pressure per marginal charge weight increase (marginal meaning one more increment of .2 or .3) it usually builds more gradual. Your gun won’t blow up at 41.6g if it functioned and ejected normally at 41.4g. Semi autos are more sensitive to incremental charge weight increases.

Some will run pressure loads if overall it’s safe and gives them optimal performance. Basically they are trading off longer run barrel and brass life for a more potent recipe for the moment by running it at the ragged edge.

 

[Overclok79]

Yah. I'm willing to play it safe with charge weight to get better brass life. 99% of my shooting is at a max of 600 yards so I don't need crazy speed. When I built this gun I was dumb and went with a 22" medium palma. I'm only about a 1/3 the way through its life, but I'll definitely being going with a 26" MTU next time around.

 

[supercorndogs]

Its a 6.5 Creed in Hornady brass with 140s. Some where in-between 41.4 and 41.9 is going to be your low node. There is a ton of data out there on the combo you want to run.

 

[Brettmparker1]

Its a 6.5 Creed in Hornady brass with 140s. Some where in-between 41.4 and 41.9 is going to be your low node. There is a ton of data out there on the combo you want to run.

What he said. I ran your exact combo and landed at 42.1 gn. 2.820 coal (mag length) speed was 2750s if I remember right

 

[Overclok79]

Its a 6.5 Creed in Hornady brass with 140s. Some where in-between 41.4 and 41.9 is going to be your low node. There is a ton of data out there on the combo you want to run.

I've seen its very common to run a grain or two over the manual's max charge spec. I'm little worried running over max charge weight as I am just starting out. Should I start off with a 1 shot per charge weight to look for pressure signs and then do a 3 or 5 shot per charge ladder to find a good speed node?

What he said. I ran your exact combo and landed at 42.1 gn. 2.820 coal (mag length) speed was 2750s if I remember right

What kind of SD's where you getting? I'm worried the Hornady brass is going to be the weak link.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I've seen its very common to run a grain or two over the manual's max charge spec. I'm little worried running over max charge weight as I am just starting out. Should I start off with a 1 shot per charge weight to look for pressure signs and then do a 3 or 5 shot per charge ladder to find a good speed node?

That's up to you, and how many range trips you can make, balanced against how willing you are to break down multiple rounds if they're too hot. I like to know what charge ranges are 'acceptable' in my gun, along with how those chrono out - so I load one per charge at first now. If you can't get the speed you want before max, it would be a waste to continue with that powder / bullet / primer combo. After that, you can come back and nail down a good range with 5 round strings.

Next time I may do the Litz load development from No BS BC, it sounds like a whole lot less work.

 

[nn8734]

I've seen its very common to run a grain or two over the manual's max charge spec. I'm little worried running over max charge weight as I am just starting out. Should I start off with a 1 shot per charge weight to look for pressure signs and then do a 3 or 5 shot per charge ladder to find a good speed node?

I know you quoted SuperCDs here’s my take: a sample of one is insufficient to decide or act upon.

It’s not uncommon to have one or two rounds at a given charge exhibit no pressure then your next round show minor signs (slightly hard bolt lift, cratering primer, etc). if you follow my above instructions, you will encounter pressure signs well in advance before you do any damage to anything and learn where your rifle’s pressure threshold is on the charge weight curve.

 

[Overclok79]

I know you quoted SuperCDs here’s my take: a sample of one is insufficient to decide or act upon.

It’s not uncommon to have one or two rounds at a given charge exhibit no pressure then your next round show minor signs (slightly hard bolt lift, cratering primer, etc). if you follow my above instructions, you will encounter pressure signs well in advance before you do any damage to anything and learn where your rifle’s pressure threshold is on the charge weight curve.

Thanks for the advice. I agree. I don't feel like I can trust data from a single sample. I feel like doing 5 shots per charge weight and having more data will save me time in the long run. Since it appears to be the thing to do, I guess I will carefully load a grain over the hornady manual. Interestingly enough the Hodgon's manual tops out at 40 gr with a 140gr bullet. The manuals seen very very conservative. I have never seen anyone post a load that light. Should I stick to 0.2 gr increments and go from 40.7 to 42.5? Would 0.3 gr be too course?

 

[nn8734]

Thanks for the advice. I agree. I don't feel like I can trust data from a single sample. I feel like doing 5 shots per charge weight and having more data will save me time in the long run. Since it appears to be the thing to do, I guess I will carefully load a grain over the hornady manual. Interestingly enough the Hodgon's manual tops out at 40 gr with a 140gr bullet. The manuals seen very very conservative. I have never seen anyone post a load that light. Should I stick to 0.2 gr increments and go from 40.7 to 42.5? Would 0.3 gr be too course?

Stick to .2, it’s the right amount of granularity IMO. Reloading manuals are as much influenced by lawyers (and for good reason) as they are by hand loaders and engineers. You will be fine. As a new Reloader, It’s more important to get your process and procedures dialed in so that your data is actionable. Check out Ultimate Reloader, Johnnys Reloading Bench on YouTube. Lots of good info, particularly on the 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[supercorndogs]

As a new reloader starting out and wanting to learn the process it would probably be helpful to go with a well documented process, and not grab a little from here and little from there. This is an often misused, misquoted, and misunderstood process. Its a long read but worth the time IMO.

OCW instructions - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

Dan Newberry OCW or Optimal Charge Weight Load Development method or system for handloading, reloading, bullets, brass, powder, primers, accurate handloads.

optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

 

[Brettmparker1]

I've seen its very common to run a grain or two over the manual's max charge spec. I'm little worried running over max charge weight as I am just starting out. Should I start off with a 1 shot per charge weight to look for pressure signs and then do a 3 or 5 shot per charge ladder to find a good speed node?



What kind of SD's where you getting? I'm worried the Hornady brass is going to be the weak link.

I've seen its very common to run a grain or two over the manual's max charge spec. I'm little worried running over max charge weight as I am just starting out. Should I start off with a 1 shot per charge weight to look for pressure signs and then do a 3 or 5 shot per charge ladder to find a good speed node?



What kind of SD's where you getting? I'm worried the Hornady brass is going to be the

Usually ran 8-12 range. Hornady brass isn’t bad brass it isn’t as good as some others but I wouldn’t worry about it it’s all how you prep. I will say though that if this is ammo for the 600 yard area your sd really doesn’t have to be single digit, but it’s nice when it is. I have some factory ammo in bulk that I regularly go to 1000 yards and sometimes farther and the sd is like 20-25 and I’m still able to get on a 12-20 inch plate. I know I’m being a blasphemer here but getting really hung up on that number can make you crazy. Just my thoughts

 

[Overclok79]

Stick to .2, it’s the right amount of granularity IMO. Reloading manuals are as much influenced by lawyers (and for good reason) as they are by hand loaders and engineers. You will be fine. As a new Reloader, It’s more important to get your process and procedures dialed in so that your data is actionable. Check out Ultimate Reloader, Johnnys Reloading Bench on YouTube. Lots of good info, particularly on the 6.5 creedmoor.

Yup. Those two channels have been a great help. I assume they always stay under the manuals spec for the same legal reasons.

Usually ran 8-12 range. Hornady brass isn’t bad brass it isn’t as good as some others but I wouldn’t worry about it it’s all how you prep. I will say though that if this is ammo for the 600 yard area your sd really doesn’t have to be single digit, but it’s nice when it is. I have some factory ammo in bulk that I regularly go to 1000 yards and sometimes farther and the sd is like 20-25 and I’m still able to get on a 12-20 inch plate. I know I’m being a blasphemer here but getting really hung up on that number can make you crazy. Just my thoughts

I would be stoked with a 8-12 SD. A 10 shot sample of Factory 147 gr ELD match had a SD of 11 through my rifle and that ammo out preforms me. If my handloads are at least as good as that I will be happy.

 

[Jordanwickham]

My low node is 41.9 gr H4350 Lapua brass 205m 140 Berger Hybrid.
Between Berger Hybrid and ELDMs my nodes were .1 different.
ELDM 41.8/42.6
Berger 41.9/42.7
Don't go after the 42 loads since you don't know where your pressure is and it's pretty hot