How frequently do you guys turn the necks on your brass? Is there a acceptable tolerance for neck thickness?
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Re: turning necks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I turn all mine to .0133, some get turned all the way around, some barely get touched, most is just a skim or 50-75% </div></div>
Same here. I use a Redding Competition neck die. If the necks are uneven, the round will have runout by definition.
Neck turning is really not that bad. I'm in the middle of 350 7-08 Win. brass sized to .260 as we speak... Lapua brass is too expensive to lose at matches.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I turn all mine to .0133, some get turned all the way around, some barely get touched, most is just a skim or 50-75% </div></div>
Same here. I use a Redding Competition neck die. If the necks are uneven, the round will have runout by definition.
Neck turning is really not that bad. I'm in the middle of 350 7-08 Win. brass sized to .260 as we speak... Lapua brass is too expensive to lose at matches.
John
Re: turning necks?
Never
Never
Re: turning necks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never </div></div>
Not by any means questioning your methods but why not? Trying to educate myself on the pros and cons
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never </div></div>
Not by any means questioning your methods but why not? Trying to educate myself on the pros and cons
Re: turning necks?
Grif turning necks is not a waste of time, but it is very time consuming, it is not required for this game, I started doing it because I had some brass that no matter what I did runout was there, so I finally bought a 21st Century Shooting turner, runout went away for the most part, then I noticed my groups shrank. I don't know what level of reloading your at, neck turning is an advanced procedure, I would advise against it for stock chambered rifle, I would advise against it for 308.
Grif turning necks is not a waste of time, but it is very time consuming, it is not required for this game, I started doing it because I had some brass that no matter what I did runout was there, so I finally bought a 21st Century Shooting turner, runout went away for the most part, then I noticed my groups shrank. I don't know what level of reloading your at, neck turning is an advanced procedure, I would advise against it for stock chambered rifle, I would advise against it for 308.
Re: turning necks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Neck turning is really not that bad. I'm in the middle of 350 7-08 Win. brass sized to .260 as we speak... Lapua brass is too expensive to lose at matches.
John </div></div>
The money saved from using Win 7-08 in my 260 over Lapua paid for my turner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Neck turning is really not that bad. I'm in the middle of 350 7-08 Win. brass sized to .260 as we speak... Lapua brass is too expensive to lose at matches.
John </div></div>
The money saved from using Win 7-08 in my 260 over Lapua paid for my turner.
Re: turning necks?
With a SAMMI spec chamber it is not necessary and excellent accuracy can be achieved with unturned brass.Factory chambers especially may already have excess clearance so turning just makes a loose fit looser such that any improvement in neck tension uniformity is offset by the loose fit.Even in long range benchrest guns,there are shooters with no turn chambers who get extremely good accuracy,but they are usually using top quality brass.
In tight chambered guns where neck turning is required in order to get the round to chamber,the usual practice is to thin the neck until there is at least .002 clearance. In other words in a .294 chamber ,the loaded round would measure .292 .Plenty of shooters think a little more clearance is good.I usually aim for .003-.004.
A little skimming of the brass probably never hurts,it is just a judgement call as to whether it is worth the effort.I often do turn the brass just to feel like I have done every thing I can to prevent that flier.You can get an approximation of how tight your chamber is by measuring the outside of your fired brass.It will have some spring back and will often be about .002 less than the actual chamber size. If you have several thousandths of clearance,I doubt neck turning is worth it.
With a SAMMI spec chamber it is not necessary and excellent accuracy can be achieved with unturned brass.Factory chambers especially may already have excess clearance so turning just makes a loose fit looser such that any improvement in neck tension uniformity is offset by the loose fit.Even in long range benchrest guns,there are shooters with no turn chambers who get extremely good accuracy,but they are usually using top quality brass.
In tight chambered guns where neck turning is required in order to get the round to chamber,the usual practice is to thin the neck until there is at least .002 clearance. In other words in a .294 chamber ,the loaded round would measure .292 .Plenty of shooters think a little more clearance is good.I usually aim for .003-.004.
A little skimming of the brass probably never hurts,it is just a judgement call as to whether it is worth the effort.I often do turn the brass just to feel like I have done every thing I can to prevent that flier.You can get an approximation of how tight your chamber is by measuring the outside of your fired brass.It will have some spring back and will often be about .002 less than the actual chamber size. If you have several thousandths of clearance,I doubt neck turning is worth it.
Re: turning necks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdmartin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In tight chambered guns where neck turning is required in order to get the round to chamber,the usual practice is to thin the neck until there is at least .002 clearance. In other words in a .294 chamber ,the loaded round would measure .292 .Plenty of shooters think a little more clearance is good.I usually aim for .003-.004. </div></div>
When I was reading up on it, I found alot of guys would shoot for 0.0007 - 0.001 per side. If the chamber dimension was 0.338, they would shoot for a loaded diameter from 0.3366 - 0.336. I have a 0.338 neck that I turn the brass for a loaded diameter of 0.336. When I measure my brass after firing, it has a dimension of 0.336. I run them through a 0.335 bushing and load them again. I shouldn't have to anneal the necks and the brass should last near forever as long as the primer pockets hold up.
I turn once to initially chamber and then I turn them again after firing the first time to clean them up after fire forming. I agree, if you aren't going to run a tight neck chamber (which you don't need for a tactical gun) then you don't NEED to turn necks.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdmartin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In tight chambered guns where neck turning is required in order to get the round to chamber,the usual practice is to thin the neck until there is at least .002 clearance. In other words in a .294 chamber ,the loaded round would measure .292 .Plenty of shooters think a little more clearance is good.I usually aim for .003-.004. </div></div>
When I was reading up on it, I found alot of guys would shoot for 0.0007 - 0.001 per side. If the chamber dimension was 0.338, they would shoot for a loaded diameter from 0.3366 - 0.336. I have a 0.338 neck that I turn the brass for a loaded diameter of 0.336. When I measure my brass after firing, it has a dimension of 0.336. I run them through a 0.335 bushing and load them again. I shouldn't have to anneal the necks and the brass should last near forever as long as the primer pockets hold up.
I turn once to initially chamber and then I turn them again after firing the first time to clean them up after fire forming. I agree, if you aren't going to run a tight neck chamber (which you don't need for a tactical gun) then you don't NEED to turn necks.
Re: turning necks?
Question for 427Cobra --- you advise against neck turning for a stock chambered rifle, and for the .308. I have been considering this for my .308 loads, so could you please help me understand why you advise against it. Thanks.
Bob
Question for 427Cobra --- you advise against neck turning for a stock chambered rifle, and for the .308. I have been considering this for my .308 loads, so could you please help me understand why you advise against it. Thanks.
Bob
Re: turning necks?
I shoot a custom .308 in F Class and I neck turn all my Lapua brass. I minimally skim cut all necks to the same spec.
Neck turning gives reduced runout and consistent neck tension. These two variables make a difference in any rifle's accuracy.
I shoot a custom .308 in F Class and I neck turn all my Lapua brass. I minimally skim cut all necks to the same spec.
Neck turning gives reduced runout and consistent neck tension. These two variables make a difference in any rifle's accuracy.
Re: turning necks?
Thanks Leaddog. That is consistent with my thinking, but I would like to hear any and all arguments against.
Thanks Leaddog. That is consistent with my thinking, but I would like to hear any and all arguments against.
Re: turning necks?
For what we do, turning necks is not necessary.
Tactical precision shooting is about addressing the issues that matter to practical accuracy and ignoring the ones that don't:
Is humidity important? Yes. Does it make a difference in discernable POI at under 1000 yards? No.
Does spin drift have an effect? Yes. Does the effect matter when you don't have time to pull the trigger slowly or can't pull the tigger properly? Probably not.
Is an MOA scope adjustment 'finer' than a Mil adjustment? Sure. Does it matter on target when you can't hold the difference? No.
If you buy good brass, what is the difference in accuracy between a neck-turned round versus one that is simply FL sized and loaded? I don't know. But what I do know is that, even assuming that there is an accuracy improvement, if I want to take advantage of it I had better start paying attention to the temperature of my barrel at each shot.
Because, when compared to the POI shifts caused by differences in the execution of the fundamentals, the change in POI on steel between 45.0 grains and 45.1 grains of powder can't be isolated between the beginning and the end of a rapid 15-round string in a stage. Therefore I need to spend my time training instead of neck-turning my brass.
Besides, we don't run tight-neck chambers so what's even the theoretical advantage to doing it?
For what we do, turning necks is not necessary.
Tactical precision shooting is about addressing the issues that matter to practical accuracy and ignoring the ones that don't:
Is humidity important? Yes. Does it make a difference in discernable POI at under 1000 yards? No.
Does spin drift have an effect? Yes. Does the effect matter when you don't have time to pull the trigger slowly or can't pull the tigger properly? Probably not.
Is an MOA scope adjustment 'finer' than a Mil adjustment? Sure. Does it matter on target when you can't hold the difference? No.
If you buy good brass, what is the difference in accuracy between a neck-turned round versus one that is simply FL sized and loaded? I don't know. But what I do know is that, even assuming that there is an accuracy improvement, if I want to take advantage of it I had better start paying attention to the temperature of my barrel at each shot.
Because, when compared to the POI shifts caused by differences in the execution of the fundamentals, the change in POI on steel between 45.0 grains and 45.1 grains of powder can't be isolated between the beginning and the end of a rapid 15-round string in a stage. Therefore I need to spend my time training instead of neck-turning my brass.
Besides, we don't run tight-neck chambers so what's even the theoretical advantage to doing it?
Re: turning necks?
I prep brass (308,260,300wm,9mm,357) polish,size,trim,clean pockets on rifle stuff. Like any hobby you take it to the limits you feel you need. I mostly shoot steel tactical matches (mostly gasgun) so i loose brass in the sagebrush. If my game was F-class or Benchrest i may feel the need to test case capasity, turn necks, check bullet runout, yada, yada, yada..
And i feel the time is better spent apeasing my groupies on the Hide.
I prep brass (308,260,300wm,9mm,357) polish,size,trim,clean pockets on rifle stuff. Like any hobby you take it to the limits you feel you need. I mostly shoot steel tactical matches (mostly gasgun) so i loose brass in the sagebrush. If my game was F-class or Benchrest i may feel the need to test case capasity, turn necks, check bullet runout, yada, yada, yada..
And i feel the time is better spent apeasing my groupies on the Hide.
Re: turning necks?
if your case neck OD expands more then .004 you should not be neck turning. The additional case neck expansion from turning cases down negatively offsets any improvements of runout.
I ran some tests on my pressure trace machine and that's what i found out. The unturned cases , with more runout , out-preformed the turned cases that had less runout. The results were obvious. I shot 20 rounds of both neck turned and non neck turned cases. The chamber i tested is .005 larger then the OD of my loaded rounds. I havn't tested a .003 tight neck chamber , so i can't say for sure, the tightest i've tested is .005.
if your case neck OD expands more then .004 you should not be neck turning. The additional case neck expansion from turning cases down negatively offsets any improvements of runout.
I ran some tests on my pressure trace machine and that's what i found out. The unturned cases , with more runout , out-preformed the turned cases that had less runout. The results were obvious. I shot 20 rounds of both neck turned and non neck turned cases. The chamber i tested is .005 larger then the OD of my loaded rounds. I havn't tested a .003 tight neck chamber , so i can't say for sure, the tightest i've tested is .005.
Re: turning necks?
Thanks guys,
A lot of great info there. I'm shooting .308 in a mostly factory gun and I am happy with the results I've been getting but I always wonder if I'm missing steps or overlooking things that could net even better results.
Thanks guys,
A lot of great info there. I'm shooting .308 in a mostly factory gun and I am happy with the results I've been getting but I always wonder if I'm missing steps or overlooking things that could net even better results.
Re: turning necks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Squarenut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question for 427Cobra --- you advise against neck turning for a stock chambered rifle, and for the .308. I have been considering this for my .308 loads, so could you please help me understand why you advise against it. Thanks.
Bob </div></div>
Way too much neck clearance, my PSS fired brass measured .344, loaded round measured .332-.333, now turn that brass and your looking at up to .013 expansion with Winchester brass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Squarenut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question for 427Cobra --- you advise against neck turning for a stock chambered rifle, and for the .308. I have been considering this for my .308 loads, so could you please help me understand why you advise against it. Thanks.
Bob </div></div>
Way too much neck clearance, my PSS fired brass measured .344, loaded round measured .332-.333, now turn that brass and your looking at up to .013 expansion with Winchester brass.
Re: turning necks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdmartin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In tight chambered guns where neck turning is required in order to get the round to chamber,the usual practice is to thin the neck until there is at least .002 clearance. In other words in a .294 chamber ,the loaded round would measure .292 .Plenty of shooters think a little more clearance is good.I usually aim for .003-.004. </div></div>
When I was reading up on it, I found alot of guys would shoot for 0.0007 - 0.001 per side. If the chamber dimension was 0.338, they would shoot for a loaded diameter from 0.3366 - 0.336. I have a 0.338 neck that I turn the brass for a loaded diameter of 0.336. When I measure my brass after firing, it has a dimension of 0.336. I run them through a 0.335 bushing and load them again. I shouldn't have to anneal the necks and the brass should last near forever as long as the primer pockets hold up.
I turn once to initially chamber and then I turn them again after firing the first time to clean them up after fire forming. I agree, if you aren't going to run a tight neck chamber (which you don't need for a tactical gun) then you don't NEED to turn necks. </div></div>
I agree that about .001 per side is probably the most common clearance shot in tight necked bench rest guns.My practices changed toward a little more clearance after going through Jack Neary's videos on tuning for accuracy.In these videos he is addressing point blank benchrest shooters but I think the principles apply to accurate rifles in general.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZWvn68bRU
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdmartin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In tight chambered guns where neck turning is required in order to get the round to chamber,the usual practice is to thin the neck until there is at least .002 clearance. In other words in a .294 chamber ,the loaded round would measure .292 .Plenty of shooters think a little more clearance is good.I usually aim for .003-.004. </div></div>
When I was reading up on it, I found alot of guys would shoot for 0.0007 - 0.001 per side. If the chamber dimension was 0.338, they would shoot for a loaded diameter from 0.3366 - 0.336. I have a 0.338 neck that I turn the brass for a loaded diameter of 0.336. When I measure my brass after firing, it has a dimension of 0.336. I run them through a 0.335 bushing and load them again. I shouldn't have to anneal the necks and the brass should last near forever as long as the primer pockets hold up.
I turn once to initially chamber and then I turn them again after firing the first time to clean them up after fire forming. I agree, if you aren't going to run a tight neck chamber (which you don't need for a tactical gun) then you don't NEED to turn necks. </div></div>
I agree that about .001 per side is probably the most common clearance shot in tight necked bench rest guns.My practices changed toward a little more clearance after going through Jack Neary's videos on tuning for accuracy.In these videos he is addressing point blank benchrest shooters but I think the principles apply to accurate rifles in general.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZWvn68bRU
Re: turning necks?
For a stock chambered rifle running WCC brass, it absolutely doesn't make sense to neck turn. WCC is very thin. Federal, Lapua, and Lake City are all pretty thick brass and you can get away with skim turning them and still having reasonable neck clearance.
I wouldn't turn Federal brass unless I were running very light loads. Why? Not enough firings until you get loose primer pockets.
I look at brass a little different than most people. A lot of people will say that brass is the most expensive component in reloading for rifle... and under that justification buy cheaper brass. It all depends on how many firings you are getting. If you tend to lose all your brass in matches after 3 - 4 firings, yeah, brass is really expensive. If you are getting 8 - 10 firings or more, brass is the cheapest component except for maybe primers.
I view neck turning the same way. Is it time consuming? Yes... when you do it. But it only needs to be done once or twice (for extra credit) during the life of the case. I get 12 + firings, so I will spend far more time on other processing steps... cleaning, charging, and seating, then I ever will on turning necks. It takes me about a minute and a half for me to turn a neck including running through an expander mandrel and lubing. And I turn my cases manually.
It took me about a week spending two hours a night to turn 500 cases... yeah, that sucked at the time... but that was a year ago and I am still shooting the same batch of brass.
I figure it takes me 4 minutes a case per firing to reload all in... I am very slow. In the life of a case, I will spend at least 4 minutes X 10 firings = 40 minutes reloading that case. A minute and a half in 40 minutes of reloading is insignificant to me. People are just bothered by the fact that this time expenditure is all up front, just like the cost of a case.
That said... for folks who are using gas guns and getting 3 - 4 firings, or guys who are not getting that many firings because they are either losing brass or are loading excessively hot, neck turning is probably not worth the time and energy.
For a stock chambered rifle running WCC brass, it absolutely doesn't make sense to neck turn. WCC is very thin. Federal, Lapua, and Lake City are all pretty thick brass and you can get away with skim turning them and still having reasonable neck clearance.
I wouldn't turn Federal brass unless I were running very light loads. Why? Not enough firings until you get loose primer pockets.
I look at brass a little different than most people. A lot of people will say that brass is the most expensive component in reloading for rifle... and under that justification buy cheaper brass. It all depends on how many firings you are getting. If you tend to lose all your brass in matches after 3 - 4 firings, yeah, brass is really expensive. If you are getting 8 - 10 firings or more, brass is the cheapest component except for maybe primers.
I view neck turning the same way. Is it time consuming? Yes... when you do it. But it only needs to be done once or twice (for extra credit) during the life of the case. I get 12 + firings, so I will spend far more time on other processing steps... cleaning, charging, and seating, then I ever will on turning necks. It takes me about a minute and a half for me to turn a neck including running through an expander mandrel and lubing. And I turn my cases manually.
It took me about a week spending two hours a night to turn 500 cases... yeah, that sucked at the time... but that was a year ago and I am still shooting the same batch of brass.
I figure it takes me 4 minutes a case per firing to reload all in... I am very slow. In the life of a case, I will spend at least 4 minutes X 10 firings = 40 minutes reloading that case. A minute and a half in 40 minutes of reloading is insignificant to me. People are just bothered by the fact that this time expenditure is all up front, just like the cost of a case.
That said... for folks who are using gas guns and getting 3 - 4 firings, or guys who are not getting that many firings because they are either losing brass or are loading excessively hot, neck turning is probably not worth the time and energy.
Re: turning necks?
Graham, I'm with you 100%!
When you can shoot bugholes at 200 yards with non-prepped 1969 IVI headstamp NATO brass, complete with off center flash holes, varying in OAL by over .020", you really start wondering WTF you were doing, spending all that time "prepping" brass.
Why? Because the "benchresters" do. Well, they also clean their bore after every shot or two, and fellas at my club will LITERALLY shoot a 5 round group with ONE FRICKIN CASE! Hell, I've seen a guy fire 5, 5 shot groups, loading that same case for every shot.
My point is, we're not benchresters, and we're not retired, so just load some frickin ammo and shoot, already!
I'm starting to warm up to Lowlights philosophy of having some disdain for reloading!
At the mammoth challenge, the overall winning team was using M118LR. Lake city brass, unprepped, metered charges, no seating depth tuning, no neck turning!
I guess you have to ask yourself if you shoot so you can reload, or if you reliad so you can shoot...?
Another thing: You'll rethink your brass choice and prep level when you go to a match and don't have the time/ability to get your brass back.
Graham, I'm with you 100%!
When you can shoot bugholes at 200 yards with non-prepped 1969 IVI headstamp NATO brass, complete with off center flash holes, varying in OAL by over .020", you really start wondering WTF you were doing, spending all that time "prepping" brass.
Why? Because the "benchresters" do. Well, they also clean their bore after every shot or two, and fellas at my club will LITERALLY shoot a 5 round group with ONE FRICKIN CASE! Hell, I've seen a guy fire 5, 5 shot groups, loading that same case for every shot.
My point is, we're not benchresters, and we're not retired, so just load some frickin ammo and shoot, already!
I'm starting to warm up to Lowlights philosophy of having some disdain for reloading!
At the mammoth challenge, the overall winning team was using M118LR. Lake city brass, unprepped, metered charges, no seating depth tuning, no neck turning!
I guess you have to ask yourself if you shoot so you can reload, or if you reliad so you can shoot...?
Another thing: You'll rethink your brass choice and prep level when you go to a match and don't have the time/ability to get your brass back.
Re: turning necks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why? Because the "benchresters" do. Well, they also clean their bore after every shot or two, and fellas at my club will LITERALLY shoot a 5 round group with ONE FRICKIN CASE! Hell, I've seen a guy fire 5, 5 shot groups, loading that same case for every shot.
</div></div>
I disagree that folks here are trying to mimic benchresters for accuracy. For one thing... benchresters always meter their charges. It is long range folks who weigh. Benchresters use flat-based bullets. Long range folks use boat tails. Benchresters bring a press to the range and charge and seat that day. Long range folks spend time developing a load and then stay with it.
If anything, people here are mimicking what the "F-classers" are doing as techniques such as annealing and neck turning are becoming more prevalent in F-class.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why? Because the "benchresters" do. Well, they also clean their bore after every shot or two, and fellas at my club will LITERALLY shoot a 5 round group with ONE FRICKIN CASE! Hell, I've seen a guy fire 5, 5 shot groups, loading that same case for every shot.
</div></div>
I disagree that folks here are trying to mimic benchresters for accuracy. For one thing... benchresters always meter their charges. It is long range folks who weigh. Benchresters use flat-based bullets. Long range folks use boat tails. Benchresters bring a press to the range and charge and seat that day. Long range folks spend time developing a load and then stay with it.
If anything, people here are mimicking what the "F-classers" are doing as techniques such as annealing and neck turning are becoming more prevalent in F-class.
Re: turning necks?
Some do..some don't.I would, if I was neck sizing with a bushing die.( I use the Lee collect neck)Some do it because they have a tight chamber.If you do, it's done only one time.Some long range shooter sware by it,while some short range shooter say it makes NO differents.Your choice . Good reloading !!!
Some do..some don't.I would, if I was neck sizing with a bushing die.( I use the Lee collect neck)Some do it because they have a tight chamber.If you do, it's done only one time.Some long range shooter sware by it,while some short range shooter say it makes NO differents.Your choice . Good reloading !!!
