Gunsmithing Two Custom Sniper Rifle Builds (modern and vintage)

[Son of Dorn]

Hi everyone,

Both are about custom sniper builds I want to make sometime in the future, one "vintage" and one a "modern update" to the old-school rifle.
I'm gonna list out what I want, or what I think I want, components-wise and am looking for suggestions and/or help with improving the builds.

I want to preface this by saying I'm not any sort of professional, or even an amateur, sniper. I want to build rifles that I can practice with, train with, hunt with, and enjoy, based on my particular wants.

Modern Build

Calibre: .300 Win-Mag (considering .338 Lap-Mag)
Action: Defiance Machine "Deviant Hunter" or "Deviant Tactical" (heavy tang)
Bolt options: Defiance handle, L or XL tactical knob, CRF nose, 3-pos safety
Feed system: Detachable mag (AICS pattern)
Trigger: ???
Barrel: M40 profile (24", fluted)
Muzzle: Threaded
Muzzle device: SEI Vortex (if usable)
Stock/Chassis: McMillan A1, A3, or A3-5 (clamp-bar cheekpiece)
Scope: ???

At the moment, that's all I've got. I'd love to use a classic Arctic Warfare chassis but really just for the "cool" factor; a plain McMillan stock is good enough for me. Open to any and all suggestions and help starting now!


Vintage Build

I want to build a vintage-style rifle that I can practice with, train with, hunt with, and enjoy, based on my particular wants. For this rifle, I want to build something that a sniper would have had during the 1960s through 1980s; it's more or less a fantasy build and while it might take design cues from official military arms, it's not a direct clone of anything.

Calibre: Considered .30-06 but strongly leaning towards .300 H&H
Action: Pre-64 Winchester M70 (or another Mauser-style action)
Feed system: Fixed internal magazine
Trigger: Pre-64 Winchester if I use that action
Barrel: M40 profile (24")
Muzzle: Crowned (maybe threaded for a suppressor or muzzle device)
Muzzle device: ???
Stock/Chassis: Wood, cheek rest
Scope: M40 3-9x or similar (original or copy)

At the moment, that's what I have in mind as a base. Open to any and all suggestions and help starting now!

 

[RTH1800]

70 target straight profile is the most logical. Might consider a regular 70 target rifle. It will be clip slotted and have the correct barrel. Drop in a standard 70 stock and done. Not sure why you are mixing an M40 scope into the 70 project but it will work.

 

[Son of Dorn]

70 target straight profile is the most logical. Might consider a regular 70 target rifle. It will be clip slotted and have the correct barrel. Drop in a standard 70 stock and done. Not sure why you are mixing an M40 scope into the 70 project but it will work.

I just happen to like the M40 scope but any similar 3-9x scope from the period will work. A few of the USMC M70s were, unless I'm mistaken, fitted with similar ones instead of the giant Unertls during Vietnam but since I'm not directly copying the USMC build, I wanted to do something a little bit different (up to and including the .300 win-mag).

 

[RTH1800]

Sounds good. Just curious. If you go with a 70 action it will be easier and likely cheaper to find a magnum action for the magnum build. Might take a bit longer to source but you will end up with a better build rather than opening up a standard action.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Sounds good. Just curious. If you go with a 70 action it will be easier and likely cheaper to find a magnum action for the magnum build. Might take a bit longer to source but you will end up with a better build rather than opening up a standard action.

Yeah, that's the issue if I do want to go with .300 W-M. The website I was looking at for a complete action didn't have any magnum ones available, only piecemeal parts. But I'm not sold on it, although it'd be an excellent choice for a mercenary and/or hunter in the African continent per the idea behind this build.

 

[Spblademaker]

I’m not versed in the tactically cool verbiage and vernacular, as “mercenary and/or hunter build.” Please educate me on the subject.

 

[Dewey7271]

Yep. Little confused by that myself.
Care to elaborate @Son of Dorn ?

 

[Son of Dorn]

I’m not versed in the tactically cool verbiage and vernacular, as “mercenary and/or hunter build. Please educate me on the subject.

Oh it's exactly what it says on the tin. A rifle that might have been used by a mercenary and/or big game hunter in Africa (as well as the Middle East and the Indian/Indochinese subcontinent) during the 1960s through 1980s. A weapon that would've equally been at home putting a bullet through someone waving an AK-47 around in a combat situation and through an eland or sambar in a sporting one. .30-06 would get the job done but .300 Win-Mag would be better against larger animals or at longer ranges.

 

[Spblademaker]

@Son of Dorn Your ingredients list looks fine. Stick with 06 and rock on. What timespan are you thinking for completion? Are you doing the actual work or having someone else do it?

 

[QuickNDirty]

Maybe a 375 Mercenary chambering. Making it a Mercenary’s Mercenary Rifle? ?

A true merc wouldn't settle for anything less than a 1 caliber rifle.

Like a 1.0x150 or so. That ought to fuck just about everything up.

 

[Son of Dorn]

@Son of Dorn Your ingredients list looks fine. Stick with 06 and rock on. What timespan are you thinking for completion? Are you doing the actual work or having someone else do it?

No estimate for timespan, I have a couple of other projects ahead of this one; a couple years down the road at the earliest but I wanted to get some feedback on setup first. And no, I'd be having a professional do the work. I might get my gunsmithing license between now and then, though, and do some of it myself, but I'd prefer someone with more experience in precision rifles to work on at least part of it.

 

[Spblademaker]

No estimate for timespan, I have a couple of other projects ahead of this one; a couple years down the road at the earliest but I wanted to get some feedback on setup first. And no, I'd be having a professional do the work. I might get my gunsmithing license between now and then, though, and do some of it myself, but I'd prefer someone with more experience in precision rifles to work on at least part of it.

A couple of years?? Holy cow man. Half these guys have one foot in the grave and can’t wait that long for pics. ?

 

[Son of Dorn]

A couple of years?? Holy cow man. Half these guys have one foot in the grave and can’t wait that long for pics. ?

Such are the joys of (relative) youth, eh? Well I could push the sniper rifle ahead of the FAL project since I already have my M14E2 and don't *really* need another 7.62 battle rifle (that's a debate for another time)... It all depends on my work/living situation in the near future. I got plenty more hardware for pics and other posts, though, if some of the older-timers around here are so hungry for new material!

 

[Spblademaker]

Wouldnt an FAL sniper fit this bill of an African merc/hunter as well?

 

[Son of Dorn]

Wouldnt an FAL sniper fit this bill of an African merc/hunter as well?

Well as a matter of fact, it would, especially since it would be based on the ones used by a certain country beginning with R whose soldiers wore shorts. But I was going to do a para-stocked rifle and find a Trilux sight for it, so not really a true sniper. More of a DMR.

 

[Spblademaker]

8mm Egyptian. African mercs, African guns.

 

[buffalowinter]

My Winchester M70 in 30-06, Bartlein barrel, pillar bedded, custom cerakote, limited edition anodized Redfield 3x-9x. Based on what Carlos Hathcock considered the ideal sniper rifle in the book "Carlos Hathcock, White Feather".

 

[Son of Dorn]

My Winchester M70 in 30-06, Bartlein barrel, pillar bedded, custom cerakote, limited edition anodized Redfield 3x-9x. Based on what Carlos Hathcock considered the ideal sniper rifle in the book "Carlos Hathcock, White Feather".

View attachment 7120564

Very lovely. A similar setup or one like it in .300 Win-Mag is what I'm interested in doing.

 

[CMP70306]

Technically the .300 H&H or Weatherby would be the more period correct cartridge as the Win Mag was the new kid on the block in the 60’s. However for practicality sake the Win Mag is far more available in this day.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Technically the .300 H&H or Weatherby would be the more period correct cartridge as the Win Mag was the new kid on the block in the 60’s. However for practicality sake the Win Mag is far more available in this day.

True. And the H&H isn't necessarily off the table, either. Would cost a lot more to feed and I might have a harder time sourcing everything I'd need but in terms of period correctness, it's an option if I didn't want to go with the most practical .30-06 option. And nothing does say "big game rifle" quite like Holland & Holland.

 

[Dewey7271]

Here you go
Pre 64s
https://pre64win.com/collections/rifles

Nice 300 H & H here
http://daverifflegunsales.com/winchester/winchester_70

 

[Son of Dorn]

Here you go
Pre 64s
https://pre64win.com/collections/rifles

Nice 300 H & H here
http://daverifflegunsales.com/winchester/winchester_70

Thanks. I was browsing the Pre-64 site just now, and unfortunately the H&H is listed as sold. But as I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is a bit of a future project. As much as I'd like to snatch up everything I can, no-can-do right now. Just have to hope for the future.

 

[sandwarrior]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/SAFN_right.jpg/800px-SAFN_right.jpg

FN-49 set up as a sniper.

 

[Son of Dorn]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/SAFN_right.jpg/800px-SAFN_right.jpg

FN-49 set up as a sniper.

Nice. I rather prefer my M14, though, if given the choice. Somewhere in the thread there's a picture of a guy with a modified Lee-Enfield. I have a sporterized No.4 Mk1 that I might like to either turn into a L42A1 clone or do something like that to, but cartridge options are limited. Would have to either stick with .303 Brit or go down to .308 Win.

 

[buffalowinter]

My MAS 49/56 MSE replica that I built. Original scope, butt extension and cheekpiece. Buttplate and stock are copies.

The MSE (Modified St Etienne) version of the MAS 49-56 was developed specifically for international competition shooting by French military teams. The standard MAS 49-56 service rifle was much more of a combat weapon than a target rifle, and the MSE improved several of its shortcomings in that arena. Most significantly, it added a longer stock and a proper pistol grip to improve handling. The MSE also has a substantially improved trigger and iron sights with much finer adjustments that the standard rifle. These elements were combined as a kit of upgrade parts to be dropped onto a regular 49-56; the MSE was not made as a complete new rifle. Only some 900 were originally made, and they are often faked today.

 

[Son of Dorn]

My MAS 49/56 MSE replica that I built. Original scope, butt extension and cheekpiece. Buttplate and stock are copies.

The MSE (Modified St Etienne) version of the MAS 49-56 was developed specifically for international competition shooting by French military teams. The standard MAS 49-56 service rifle was much more of a combat weapon than a target rifle, and the MSE improved several of its shortcomings in that arena. Most significantly, it added a longer stock and a proper pistol grip to improve handling. The MSE also has a substantially improved trigger and iron sights with much finer adjustments that the standard rifle. These elements were combined as a kit of upgrade parts to be dropped onto a regular 49-56; the MSE was not made as a complete new rifle. Only some 900 were originally made, and they are often faked today.

View attachment 7120747


View attachment 7120749

View attachment 7120750

View attachment 7120751


View attachment 7120753

Oh I like that! Same reason I put an M14E2 stock on my own all-USGI-but-the-receiver rifle; full pistol grip just handled better.

 

[Veer_G]

Let's say, then, in reality, with geographic parameters stretching from Africa to Southeast Asia, temporal parameters from the mid-40s to the mid-70s, and no clear preference for bolt or semi, that the OP is fishing for suggestions like a blind man in a dark room. Given what he himself has suggested, I submit that this isn't even properly a thread about a sniper rifle, let alone a DMR.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Let's say, then, in reality, with geographic parameters stretching from Africa to Southeast Asia, temporal parameters from the mid-40s to the mid-70s, and no clear preference for bolt or semi, that the OP is fishing for suggestions like a blind man in a dark room. Given what he himself has suggested, I submit that this isn't even properly a thread about a sniper rifle, let alone a DMR.

My original post specified the time period of the 1960s through 1980s, not 1940s through 1970s. I specified a pre-64 Winchester M70 or similar Mauser-based action (I prefer CRF), which can only mean a bolt-action weapon and can't possibly refer to a semi-auto in the slightest *unless* you count that abominable Mauser semi-and-bolt-action G41 rifle. I'm aware that the Pre-64 action was discontinued, but that doesn't mean it would be completely out of use and like I said, I prefer CRF or else I'd have selected a higher-powered Remington 700 or even a post-64 M70 and been done with it. And since people got all bent out of shape, or seemed to, at the parameter of Africa, I opened them up a little to include other tropical and subtropical environments where long-range fire is still viable. If you want me to say that I want a rifle that can put a bullet through someone's pupil and not even brush the eye socket at 2000yds, I cannot physically shoot that well and I probably never will, not even when they come out with publicly-available laser guns. If you want me to say I'm looking to build a MOA or sub-MOA rifle at 1000yds to 1200yds at *best*, based on my "ingredients list", I can do that. And if you want me to edit my original post, I can do that too. So how about less piss-taking and more suggestions as to how I can improve my parameters and my original post?

The inclusion of semi-auto weapons, such as the FN-49 or BuffaloWinter's MAS49, while appreciated from my standpoint of general firearms interest, was the work of other people and unrelated to the actual point of this thread. I simply made mention of what I liked in comparison to those offerings when it came to semi-autos, such as the FAL project I have slated for the future and the M14 clone I already own.

 

[Random Guy]

Based on the initial post and description of a pre 64 Model 70 with vintage 3-9x scope and another post reiterating the desire for a 300 Win Mag pre-64, I think what you want is obvious. A 300 WinMag pre 64 hunting rifle with a vintage 3-9x scope. I see two challenges and I have 2 suggestions.

Challenge 1. The 300 WinMag came out in 1963, and the last year of the pre-64 was obviously 1963. So finding an original pre-64 with original 300 WinMag barrel is a huge challenge as it’s a rare combo.

Challenge 2. Due to rarity of a 1963 Model 70 in 300 WinMag, the price will be quite high. I’d guess $2500 plus.

Option 1: Religiously watch all the auction sites for a pre-64 that was rebarreled by a former owner into 300 WinMag. They exist and won’t be quite as pricey, but will sell somewhat quickly. Here’s a 1961 presumably rebarreled in 300 WinMag:

Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action in Desirable .300 Win Mag | Rock Island Auction

www.rockislandauction.com

Option 2: Buy a worn out pre-64 in 30-06 or 270 and have it rebarreled with a Douglas 24” ‘medium-heavy’ 30 caliber barrel blank and have your gunsmith chamber it for 300 WinMag. The only caveat is opening up the bolt face for the belted magnum cartridge head. I assume that can be done but not sure with the pre-64 bolt or maybe the 300 H&H (on edit) bolt can be modified?

Add a period correct Redfield 3-9x scope and you’re done. A lot of rifles for sale will come with the scope mount and often a vintage scope too. Here’s such an example with a Leupold scope, not sure about price but this looks like what you describe:

Winchester Model 70 300 Win mag, Pre-64 : 926571585

Buy a Winchester Model 70 300 Win mag, Pre-64 control feedclaw extractor, orginal stock bluing in very goo for sale by Legendary Guns on GunsAmerica.com the best online marketplace for buying and selling semi auto pistols, firearms, accessories, and collectibles : 926571585

www.gunsamerica.com

Save up about $2200 to $2500 and actively watch the auction sights. My 2cts.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Based on the initial post and description of a pre 64 Model 70 with vintage 3-9x scope and another post reiterating the desire for a 300 Win Mag pre-64, I think what you want is obvious. I see two challenges and I have 2 suggestions.

Challenge 1. The 300 WinMag came out in 1963, and the last year of the pre-64 was obviously 1963. So finding an original pre-64 with original 300 WinMag is a huge challenge as it’s a rare combo.

Challenge 2. Due to rarity of a 1963 Model 70 in 300 WinMag, the price will be quite high. I’d guess $2500 plus.

Option 1: Religiously watch all the auction sites for a pre-64 that was rebarreled by a former owner into 300 WinMag. They exist and won’t be quite as pricey, but will sell somewhat quickly. Here’s a 1961 presumably rebarreled in 300 WinMag:

Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action in Desirable .300 Win Mag | Rock Island Auction

www.rockislandauction.com

Option 2: Buy a worn out pre-64 in 30-06 or 270 and have it rebarreled with a Douglas 24” ‘medium-heavy’ 30 caliber barrel blank and have your gunsmith chamber it for 300 WinMag. The only caveat is opening up the bolt face for the belted magnum cartridge head. I assume that can be done but not sure with the pre-64 bolt or maybe the 375 H&H bolt can be modified?

Add a period correct Redfield 3-9x scope and your done. A lot of rifles for sale will come with the scope mount and often a vintage scope too. Here’s such an example with a Leupold scope, not sure about price but this looks like what you describe:

Winchester Model 70 300 Win mag, Pre-64 : 926571585

Buy a Winchester Model 70 300 Win mag, Pre-64 control feedclaw extractor, orginal stock bluing in very goo for sale by Legendary Guns on GunsAmerica.com the best online marketplace for buying and selling semi auto pistols, firearms, accessories, and collectibles : 926571585

www.gunsamerica.com

Save up about $2200 to $2500 and actively watch the auction sights. My 2cts.

Thanks. Someone suggested .300 H&H Magnum instead of the Winchester, and I'm more inclined to go with that as it's a more "period correct" choice, albeit a much more expensive one. As far as finding pre-64 actions, I know of a few sites including one that specializes in nothing but pre-64 Winchester parts, including complete actions and they do advertise having some in .300 Win-Mag available, and I'm sure there are others. In fact I might know one that has a period scope mount installed for .300 H&H Magnum; my main issue is simply funding at the moment, as it always is. I have all the time in the world but time isn't money in this case!

 

[Random Guy]

Here's my Vietnam era replica of a USMC M70 sniper rifle with 10X Unertl scope (30-06 with medium-heavy Douglas barrel)

Inspiration for my project was this famous picture of USMC sniper in Vietnam.

And here is one in color (Sporter stock enlarged for medium-heavy barrel)

 

[Son of Dorn]

Here's my Vietnam era replica of a USMC M70 sniper rifle with 10X Unertl scope

View attachment 7121120
Famous picture of USMC sniper in Vietnam
View attachment 7121121

I've always liked the *look* of the Unertl but also always wondered if it wasn't a pain in the ass having a scope that long. I've read they were somewhat fragile, too, but they must've been sturdy enough to last a World War and then some, right?

 

[Random Guy]

They were too fragile for combat conditions, esp in the pacific, and had issues in Vietnam too, but that's what they had, so they used them. Its a primitive scope, but good for CMP vintage sniper rifles matches at 300 and 600 yards.

One of my shooting buddies had a pre-64 built with a heavy 26" Douglas barrel, routed Sporter stock, a vintage Redfield 3-9x scope, and an improvised cheek pad on the Sporter stock. It shot well at a Quantico vintage match a couple of years ago. Its a bit heavy, but a good USMC replica build...

The 'original' post-WWII M70 sniper was this privately owned bull barrel M70 taken to Korea by Capt Brophy. Has a 10X large objective Unertl. He did 1000 yard engagements with it, which was considered phenomenal at the time, as maximum sniping effectiveness was considered 600 yards. Barrel is the heavy 28 inch bull barrel.

 

[sandwarrior]

I've always liked the *look* of the Unertl but also always wondered if it wasn't a pain in the ass having a scope that long. I've read they were somewhat fragile, too, but they must've been sturdy enough to last a World War and then some, right?

The Unertl is sturdier than it looks. However, it also helps to have a shooter who is cognizant of its physical limitations.

Something to be said for what Random guy posted. The 30-06 is no slouch. And, with modern high BC bullets it can hit as accurately at distance as a .300 can.

It would not have been uncommon for any kind of “spook” who had a cover as a big game hunter to be carrying a 30-06 bolt action. Easily a 1k rifle in the right hands.

The thing with the .300 mags over he 30-06 is all they added was a lot of recoil and some extra energy down range. Due to the stubbiest of .30 cal bullets back in the day, they didn’t add a whole lot more range. In todays world where we now have efficient bullets, a 30-06 would easily keep up with .300 mag. loads of yesteryear. Any long action of the day could handle a good 30-06 load.

 

[CMP70306]

They were too fragile for combat conditions, esp in the pacific, and had issues in Vietnam too, but that's what they had, so they used them. Its a primitive scope, but good for CMP vintage sniper rifles matches at 300 and 600 yards.

My shooting buddy had pre-64 built with a heavy 26" Douglas barrel, routed Sporter stock, and a vintage 3-9x scope, and an improvised cheek pad on the Sporter stock. It shot well at a Quantico vintage match a couple of years ago. Its a bit heavy, but a good USMC replica build...

View attachment 7121130

The 'original' post-war M70 sniper was this privately owned bull barrel M70 taken to Korea by Capt Brophy. Has a 10X large objective Unertl. He did 1000 yard engagement with it. Barrel is the 'heavy" 28 inch version, sometimes called the "elephant barrel" due to size.

If I remember reading correctly many of the complaints in the pacific were with the Winchester A5 scope which they also referred to as the Unertl since they looked similar. However the Winchester was far inferior to the Unertl but with no distinction made the brass assumed they were talking about the actual Unertls which led to their poor reputation in WW2.

As for Capt Brophy’s rifle it was most likely a Bull gun in 30-06, the rare caliber of a rare model with only 844 made compared to the 1862 made in .300 H&H. I have one of the Bull Guns in .300 H&H topped with a 15x Ultra Varmint, since the book Point of Impact (which the movie Shooter was based on) is what got me into long range shooting I figured it was only fitting to pick one up since that was the first place I learned about the Pre-64 Model 70.

 

[Son of Dorn]

The Unertl is sturdier than it looks. However, it also helps to have a shooter who is cognizant of its physical limitations.

Something to be said for what Random guy posted. The 30-06 is no slouch. And, with modern high BC bullets it can hit as accurately at distance as a .300 can.

It would not have been uncommon for any kind of “spook” who had a cover as a big game hunter to be carrying a 30-06 bolt action. Easily a 1k rifle in the right hands.

The thing with the .300 mags over he 30-06 is all they added was a lot of recoil and some extra energy down range. Due to the stubbiest of .30 cal bullets back in the day, they didn’t add a whole lot more range. In todays world where we now have efficient bullets, a 30-06 would easily keep up with .300 mag. loads of yesteryear. Any long action of the day could handle a good 30-06 load.

I agree the .30-06 is no slouch and I've seen load data that lets it push close enough to the .300 Win-Mag; I recall reading that Hemingway managed to take down a rhino with a .30-06 and certainly it's had a long and happy life taking down game of varying size across the globe. But in fairness, there's just a little bit of an allure using a belted magnum round, and against some game even the slightest amount of extra power can make the difference. And, hypothetically speaking, wouldn't that extra power downrange translate better in the burgeoning age of personal armor and kevlar, for a military or "company" man (alluding to your mention of a "spook" undercover? I am not completely sold on the prospect of using a magnum cartridge; .30-06 is easily the cheapest and most practical option, but a magnum, specifically the .300 H&H Magnum, does appeal to me if only for some variety among the mil-standard cartridges most of my gun rack uses.

For scopes, yeah, like I said, the Unertl must've been at least sturdy enough to withstand the rigors of the war even if they weren't the best optic ever made, and I can't imagine that Indochina was any better on them than the Pacific Theater was. At least they weren't as bad as the 2.2/2.75x ones the Army put on their M1903A4s. But their biggest limitations imo, the fixed magnification and sheer size, is why I want to use a 3-9x. BuffaloWinter's example of his Hathcock-inspired rifle, Winchester but with a Redfield scope, is quite close to what I'd like to build; the main difference is I'm still tempted by the magnum calibre instead of the .30-06.

 

[Random Guy]

I think the issue with both Winchester A5 and Unertl scopes was very poor water sealing. Same applied to the little M73B1 as well. Rain water and condensation inside the scope was a real issue...after all this is way before Nitrogen injection and rubber seals were introduced in 1930/40s era scopes. Coated lens came out in the 1950s which helped regarding scope brightness.

IMO, the best military scope of WWII was probably the British scopes on the No 4 T sniper rifles. They were purpose built for combat conditions and I think designed and tested on the Bren light machine gun. The US scopes were commercial units adopted for military service, and too fragile overall.

Anyhow, nice Bull rifle CMP70306! I’d really like to own one in 30-06 - but as you noted they are rare and very expensive. A replica of Brophys M70 bull rifle in 30-06 would be a unique piece...

 

[sandwarrior]

I agree the .30-06 is no slouch and I've seen load data that lets it push close enough to the .300 Win-Mag; I recall reading that Hemingway managed to take down a rhino with a .30-06 and certainly it's had a long and happy life taking down game of varying size across the globe. But in fairness, there's just a little bit of an allure using a belted magnum round, and against some game even the slightest amount of extra power can make the difference. And, hypothetically speaking, wouldn't that extra power downrange translate better in the burgeoning age of personal armor and kevlar, for a military or "company" man (alluding to your mention of a "spook" undercover? I am not completely sold on the prospect of using a magnum cartridge; .30-06 is easily the cheapest and most practical option, but a magnum, specifically the .300 H&H Magnum, does appeal to me if only for some variety among the mil-standard cartridges most of my gun rack uses.

For scopes, yeah, like I said, the Unertl must've been at least sturdy enough to withstand the rigors of the war even if they weren't the best optic ever made, and I can't imagine that Indochina was any better on them than the Pacific Theater was. At least they weren't as bad as the 2.2/2.75x ones the Army put on their M1903A4s. But their biggest limitations imo, the fixed magnification and sheer size, is why I want to use a 3-9x. BuffaloWinter's example of his Hathcock-inspired rifle, Winchester but with a Redfield scope, is quite close to what I'd like to build; the main difference is I'm still tempted by the magnum calibre instead of the .30-06.

Yes, Hemingway far and away preferred his custom 30-06 (Griffen & Howe) to anything else. He took all of the big five with it. Before him, W.D. "Karamojo" Bell took literally everything with both the 7x57 and 6.5x54. Both of which are less powerful than the 30-06 at the muzzle. What I'm talking about is comparing new bullets to the old bullets. Use the same bullet, though, and push it faster out of a .300 mag., and you always have more performance than the 30-06. It just depends on how nostalgic you want to keep the rifle.

Said in a different way, you are going to have enough power with an '06 or any .300 mag out to 1k. If you feel you need more energy get the mag.

One other notable that is/was very popular in Africa was the Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 6.5x54. Light, easy recoil and a great deal of penetration when it hit. Bell killed elephants with it, but gave up on it when he couldn't get reliable ammunition and went back to the 7x57. You'll find though the only thing less than a .375 full power magnum you can hunt dangerous game anymore is the 9.3x62. and, you have to get a waiver for that if they do give you one.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Yes, Hemingway far and away preferred his custom 30-06 (Griffen & Howe) to anything else. He took all of the big five with it. Before him, W.D. "Karamojo" Bell took literally everything with both the 7x57 and 6.5x54. Both of which are less powerful than the 30-06 at the muzzle. What I'm talking about is comparing new bullets to the old bullets. Use the same bullet, though, and push it faster out of a .300 mag., and you always have more performance than the 30-06. It just depends on how nostalgic you want to keep the rifle.

Said in a different way, you are going to have enough power with an '06 or any .300 mag out to 1k. If you feel you need more energy get the mag.

One other notable that is/was very popular in Africa was the Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 6.5x54. Light, easy recoil and a great deal of penetration when it hit. Bell killed elephants with it, but gave up on it when he couldn't get reliable ammunition and went back to the 7x57. You'll find though the only thing less than a .375 full power magnum you can hunt dangerous game anymore is the 9.3x62. and, you have to get a waiver for that if they do give you one.

Well, in fairness, I don't exactly plan on hunting "dangerous game" (although that term is relative since I expect a suitably pissed-off moose will trample you just as thoroughly as a cape buffalo would, and for the literary-inclined it has a double meaning well in keeping with the nature of this website's theme). Were I ever to fulfill my dream of a hunting trip to Africa, I'd settle quite happily for some nice herbivorous antelope or wildebeest; I don't think I could bring myself to shoot a lion in cold blood, for example. Staying in the USA, moose or elk would do me just fine, with bison being an outlier.

When it comes to nostalgia, that describes most of my gun rack, haha. .303 Brit, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, 7.62R, .45-70 Gov't, 6.5x55 Swede, all are present on there in all their steel-and-wood glory. But when it comes to this particular rifle, I think that I'd be better off with a magnum round, and a .300 H&H would still keep it pretty nostalgic. Regardless of how close I could load a modern .30-06 to a .300 Win-Mag, I think I'd prefer to have the extra power of a Magnum available and not necessarily need it rather than needing it and not having it if it really mattered.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Well in seriousness... this rifle was built for the OP’s purpose. It has taken a Cape buffalo and a bison.

.416 Taylor on a Mauser action. Mannlicher stock, butter knife handle. Prewar German Kahles On QD mounts and express sights.

It is everything an old Africa hand would want. As it was built by one.

And, yes, this is the one I used on my Bison a couple of years ago. Wherever those
Pix went...

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Then there is this one that I bought in Alaska about 2000 when I was up there. Old guide gun. Lots of scars. It finished off a lot of brown bears and took more than a few outright. I got my moose with it in 2004.

03 Springfield in .458 Magnum. Open sights. Fajen stock. Smooth as butter to cycle.

Punishing with 500 grain Barnes solids. But loaded down to a .45/70 charge, it is a big soft pussycat as all that weight absorbs the recoil very nicely.

This gun would be 100 Percent at home in Africa.

Sirhr

 

[Son of Dorn]

Well in seriousness... this rifle was built for the OP’s purpose. It has taken a Cape buffalo and a bison.

.416 Taylor on a Mauser action. Mannlicher stock, butter knife handle. Prewar German Kahles On QD mounts and express sights.

It is everything an old Africa hand would want. As it was built by one.

And, yes, this is the one I used on my Bison a couple of years ago. Wherever those
Pix went...

View attachment 7121776View attachment 7121777

Sirhr

Then there is this one that I bought in Alaska about 2000 when I was up there. Old guide gun. Lots of scars. It finished off a lot of brown bears and took more than a few outright. I got my moose with it in 2004.

03 Springfield in .458 Magnum. Open sights. Fajen stock. Smooth as butter to cycle.

View attachment 7121783

View attachment 7121784

Punishing with 500 grain Barnes solids. But loaded down to a .45/70 charge, it is a big soft pussycat as all that weight absorbs the recoil very nicely.

This gun would be 100 Percent at home in Africa.

Sirhr

Hi Sirhr. Those are both beautiful rifles. If I go with a Pre-64 as I'm inclined to do, the .416 is out since it wasn't invented until the '70s; the .458 would be period-OK and more than suitable for Africa as you say, but I think that I really want to stick to a .308" bullet, at least for the rifle I have in mind here, so I'm still leaning towards .300 H&H after some consideration. It might not be the most perfect of cartridges but I think it would get the job done and not leave me wanting against most game, and as I mentioned to another poster it'd be easier to load down to a lighter charge as opposed to loading up a .30-06 as I'd originally considered. .458 might just be a little overkill and while I heartily support heavy firepower, I just don't think it's the best choice of calibre.

As a couple of side notes related solely to your rifles, you mention loading your .458 down to a .45-70 charge; d'you know how that compares to a proper .45-70? Obviously a .45-70 Gov't can handle American bison or there would be more of the critters around, so is there any particular advantage in using a lower-charged .458 if you were just going after a bison? And as far as your actions go, one is a Mauser and one's a Springfield, right? Which of the two do you feel is the more comfortable? I've got a Kar98k and a M1903A3 in my collection and I find I like my Mauser more. Not quite as smooth as my M91/30 but smoother than the '03A3.

Son of Dorn

 

[308pirate]

Well I apologize. That was never my intention. If you'd prefer I edit my post, I can do that. But I'm legitimately asking for help with an old-fashioned rifle build here, I'm not trying to piss anyone off or make people concerned.

Don't do any of that. If any of your posts was a problem, a moderators would have told you so by now.

Veer isn't a moderator...............

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Sirhr. Those are both beautiful rifles. If I go with a Pre-64 as I'm inclined to do, the .416 is out since it wasn't invented until the '70s; the .458 would be period-OK and more than suitable for Africa as you say, but I think that I really want to stick to a .308" bullet, at least for the rifle I have in mind here, so I'm still leaning towards .300 H&H after some consideration. It might not be the most perfect of cartridges but I think it would get the job done and not leave me wanting against most game, and as I mentioned to another poster it'd be easier to load down to a lighter charge as opposed to loading up a .30-06 as I'd originally considered. .458 might just be a little overkill and while I heartily support heavy firepower, I just don't think it's the best choice of calibre.

As a couple of side notes related solely to your rifles, you mention loading your .458 down to a .45-70 charge; d'you know how that compares to a proper .45-70? Obviously a .45-70 Gov't can handle American bison or there would be more of the critters around, so is there any particular advantage in using a lower-charged .458 if you were just going after a bison? And as far as your actions go, one is a Mauser and one's a Springfield, right? Which of the two do you feel is the more comfortable? I've got a Kar98k and a M1903A3 in my collection and I find I like my Mauser more. Not quite as smooth as my M91/30 but smoother than the '03A3.

Son of Dorn

Both actions are superb.

So is the actual .45/70 built on an Enfield .303 action that I deer hunt every fall in Ohio with. That action was used because it feeds a rimmed cartridge effectively and smoothly.

The .458 when loaded to .45/70 charge is... a .45/70. Just happens to be in a .458 belted magnum case. It is ok for bison but on a modern hunt, more power and range is better. In the old days waste was profligate and no one cared how many ran off and died. Today, you will have to work hard to stalk within range and use a .45/70 to ensure you re not chasing a wounded animal for hours. If you are going to hunt, something with more ability to shoot flat and give you some range is a good idea.

Just a bit of background on African hunters... most could not and did not buy expensive rifles in fancy pukka calibers from Knightsbridge gun shops. Professional hunters used what they could get, often just .303s that we’re cheap, reliable and ammo was free or nearly so. The books romanticize the rifles of the few or the gunwriters who wax on about calibers and guns from H&H and Rigbys. They are very nice, but are what lord Blivetsphinchter would bring in his luggage. Not what a hand-to-mouth guide could ever afford.

Keep in mind that more elephants and rhinos have been killed with AK-47s than all other fancy African guns combined.

So your quest is largely to build a rifle that is a fantasy to begin with. So build what you want... but as for historically correct, good luck. Historically correct is most likely an SMLE maybe cut down with a hacksaw and a rasp.

As for the .416 Taylor... it is a .416 Rigby, but is based on a shorter case to fit in standard long actions of the 1970s. Based on a .458 magnum case, it allows the ballistics of the excellent .416 To be used in off the rack 700 and 70 actions.

If you are going to build some kind of Africa gun, I would give the nod to the Mauser. As for the .300 H&H it is small but plenty for anything in North America short of a Bison or a brown Bear. And if you are a good, unflappable shot, those too. Brass expensive... recoil rather harsh. Bullet rather small and light for modern hunt and some guides may want a >.30 cal rifle. As along as you are going to build something expensive and rare... and have to buy custom brass anyway, I’d go for a .375, .416 or .450 vintage cartridge and then load two loads... a low power load for thin skinned game and for the huge number of rounds you will shoot to get proficient with your new rifle before hunting things that trample and gore you. And a high power lid to shoot the things that trample and gore you. The .375 and .450 class guns are ideal for this because bullets, barrels and load data from lighter cartridges are widely available. The .416... not so much.

I’d probably go with the .375 H&H as the best middle ground. You can load full power or use .375 Jdj loads for a lighter more manageable plinking round. And have a perfect compromise between massive pumpkin-slinger and an over-charged .30-06.

Also don’t forget some of the euro loadings
Like 9.3x75R, made for the cape guns and drilling’s that were favored by the German and Dutch hunters.

Lots Of choices... lots of options. These guns were mostly fantasy pieces even when new, so build what you want, it won’t be wrong. Because everything back then was bespoke. Or cobbled together.

My .458 from Alaska is far more ”authentic” than my Selous/Capsticl/Roark-inspired Taylor... because it is the real deal. Home built and crude... cost me $375 when I bought it. Ugly works.

Sirhr

 

[Tucker301]

Consolidated, cleaned up and moved. You're welcome.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Consolidated, cleaned up and moved. You're welcome.

Thank you.

 

[Fig]

You can't "murder" an animal, or kill one "in cold blood"; not a mouse , not a lion. Animals do not understand the difference between good and evil, are not responsible for their actions, and are therefore innocent. This means, in fact, they cannot have "rights", so no "rights" can be violated when you kill one.

Just some fun facts for ya. Don't mean to get in the way of your....

 

[Son of Dorn]

Both actions are superb.

So is the actual .45/70 built on an Enfield .303 action that I deer hunt every fall in Ohio with. That action was used because it feeds a rimmed cartridge effectively and smoothly.

The .458 when loaded to .45/70 charge is... a .45/70. Just happens to be in a .458 belted magnum case. It is ok for bison but on a modern hunt, more power and range is better. In the old days waste was profligate and no one cared how many ran off and died. Today, you will have to work hard to stalk within range and use a .45/70 to ensure you re not chasing a wounded animal for hours. If you are going to hunt, something with more ability to shoot flat and give you some range is a good idea.

Just a bit of background on African hunters... most could not and did not buy expensive rifles in fancy pukka calibers from Knightsbridge gun shops. Professional hunters used what they could get, often just .303s that we’re cheap, reliable and ammo was free or nearly so. The books romanticize the rifles of the few or the gunwriters who wax on about calibers and guns from H&H and Rigbys. They are very nice, but are what lord Blivetsphinchter would bring in his luggage. Not what a hand-to-mouth guide could ever afford.

Keep in mind that more elephants and rhinos have been killed with AK-47s than all other fancy African guns combined.

So your quest is largely to build a rifle that is a fantasy to begin with. So build what you want... but as for historically correct, good luck. Historically correct is most likely an SMLE maybe cut down with a hacksaw and a rasp.

As for the .416 Taylor... it is a .416 Rigby, but is based on a shorter case to fit in standard long actions of the 1970s. Based on a .458 magnum case, it allows the ballistics of the excellent .416 To be used in off the rack 700 and 70 actions.

If you are going to build some kind of Africa gun, I would give the nod to the Mauser. As for the .300 H&H it is small but plenty for anything in North America short of a Bison or a brown Bear. And if you are a good, unflappable shot, those too. Brass expensive... recoil rather harsh. Bullet rather small and light for modern hunt and some guides may want a >.30 cal rifle. As along as you are going to build something expensive and rare... and have to buy custom brass anyway, I’d go for a .375, .416 or .450 vintage cartridge and then load two loads... a low power load for thin skinned game and for the huge number of rounds you will shoot to get proficient with your new rifle before hunting things that trample and gore you. And a high power lid to shoot the things that trample and gore you. The .375 and .450 class guns are ideal for this because bullets, barrels and load data from lighter cartridges are widely available. The .416... not so much.

I’d probably go with the .375 H&H as the best middle ground. You can load full power or use .375 Jdj loads for a lighter more manageable plinking round. And have a perfect compromise between massive pumpkin-slinger and an over-charged .30-06.

Also don’t forget some of the euro loadings
Like 9.3x75R, made for the cape guns and drilling’s that were favored by the German and Dutch hunters.

Lots Of choices... lots of options. These guns were mostly fantasy pieces even when new, so build what you want, it won’t be wrong. Because everything back then was bespoke. Or cobbled together.

My .458 from Alaska is far more ”authentic” than my Selous/Capsticl/Roark-inspired Taylor... because it is the real deal. Home built and crude... cost me $375 when I bought it. Ugly works.

Sirhr

Ugly definitely works. Whoever sporterized my 1903A3 did not care about pretty. Chopped the military stock (a pity, it *was* a type "C" and those are harder to find), kept the original barrel (rough as old asphalt on the outside) and pinned a weight/sleeve over the muzzle, put a pair of Unertl-type scope mounts on it, didn't worry about the parkerizing wearing off... But it works. Not so well without a scope or irons, but it *functions*. So while I want a nice handsome rifle, if it looks like the work of a Khyber Pass amateur (polite term), that's A-OK with me as long as it doesn't function like one.

The intention of this gun is to build a sniper rifle first and a hunting rifle second, but since I have absolutely zero intention of going out and using it for the former, its actual use is going to be for the latter and for putting holes into paper, haha. So I'm going at it with that in mind; if I wanted to build a pure hunting rifle or a dedicated buffalo/bear gun, I'd absolutely go with a big-bore "put a inch-and-a-half hole through anything that moves" cartridge and use that paired with, say, my .303 Lee-Enfield sporter against anything short of, well, an elephant or rhino (neither of which I'm especially inclined to shoot at anyway, make of that what you will). As a result, what this rifle will most resemble is the Carlos Hathcock-inspired rifle that BuffaloWinter showed some pics of earlier in the thread; that is, a CRF Mauser-type action probably without irons, a straight taper contour, a 3-9x Redfield or similar, and in my case chambered in a magnum calibre, as opposed to either of your pieces. I had been giving .300 H&H some serious thought, I'll also happily give your suggestion of .375 some too, since I do agree with your points on it being the best middle ground. But something bigger than those, I feel would be too much in this rifle.

Re: Mauser vs Springfield vs Winchester (or anything else), again I lean towards Winchester if only because it's a receiver/bolt made for the cartridge in mind (whether it's .300 or .375) and I wouldn't need to muck about with altering the bolt or anything like that. But that said, if I were to narrow it down between two choices (if, say, Winchester dried up as an option), I do really like the Mauser; maybe I just lucked out with getting a particularly smooth milsurp but I love my Kar98k's feel more than any of my boltguns aside from the M91/30 I mentioned. Finding another inexpensive milsurp Mauser to work on would pose little difficulty and it would lend some Old World class to anything (and fit with my other sporterized milsurps); I believe Parker-Hale was using surplus Mauser actions in some of their rifles at the time.

 

[Iamero]

I vote you kill two birds with one stone and buy mine haha ? Win 70, claw extractor, MTU 27” in a mcmillan A5.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

So first... we don’t build sniper rifles around here. Unless we are snipers. And if you don’t have a hogs tooth or serious schools behind you, best to simply talk about a precision rifle or a rifle... you will get trolled if you go all snipery.

Second is that the two are pretty much mutually exclusive. A big game rifle has little or no bearing on even a vintage military sniper build. Or even one used in Africa.

So with that in mind, I would drop the H&H and similar game cartridges and run with .30-06 or 8mm or something that was used Ww2 and found it’s way into Africa because that was where everything ended up eventually. Well, and VN and Afghanistan... but that’s a different story.

Lots of good info on Vintage about the various old platforms and configurations and options.

But I think you are trying to build two rifles... and Buffalowinter has about the closest thing to what you might find in Africa in the golden age of the Mercenary. But then Again... I’ve never once heard of the merc groups using sniper tactics. They were primarily heavy hitters, small arms and shock factor. Not a chess game of a sniper war. Again, probably happened. But not really their SOP.

Cheers, Sirhr

PS. Don’t ignore the old Ross! Very heavy use in WW 1 as sniper rifles and then sold as Ross Sporters in .303 and .280 in the inter wa period. Read McBride rifleman went to war.