U.S. Army's Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW)

[Woodland_Wolf_M81]

I don't think any new details were released as it seems all the details are under NDA, but Textron did partner up with Tactical Rifleman to basically create a promo video that was released today. At least it is nice to see it in action as I believe most, if not all, of the past media on Textron's offering was still images.

 

[_Windrider_]

I can’t fucking stand “tactical rifleman”. I hate the way he talks

 

[RTV]

I'm still hoping that someone can create a semi auto bullpup with sub moa accuracy.

GD seems to be my only hope at the moment lol

 

[GUNNER10]

The Next gen test could go one of two ways.

Sig will win as its the closest to an actually working platform, or the vendors will be able to take everything that they learned, refine their systems and come back when big Army decides to do the super next gen test 18 to 24 months from the current test end date.

you have an aviation firm and an aerospace defense firm that submitted overcomplex designs and a gun manufacture that submitted a scale up version of their comercial mcx and said, lets operate at 90,0000 PSI.

I like the the concept of the Sig .277 fury, but its going to take sig at least 5 years how to tie everything together

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Don’t forget about the FN HAMR

@THEIS can you share any news sir?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

FN Down-Selected to Produce Two Prototype Options for U.S. Army Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle Program | FN® Firearms

FN DOWN-SELECTED TO PRODUCE TWO PROTOTYPE OPTIONS FOR U.S. ARMY NEXT GENERATION SQUAD AUTOMATIC RIFLE PROGRAM (McLean, VA – July 16, 2018) FN America, LLC is pleased to announce that the company has been awarded contracts to produce two prototypes under the Prototype Opportunity Notice (PON) 1...

fnamerica.com

 

[_Windrider_]

The ammo is what’s interesting to me. Aren’t they going to be using the polymer cased ammo from true velocity?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

The ammo is what’s interesting to me. Aren’t they going to be using the polymer cased ammo from true velocity?

Depends who wins
Sig using steel based brass case IIRC. Hopefully @THEIS can weigh in with the latest. I believe he said Sig wasn’t doing so great IIRC but I could be wrong

 

[RyanScott]

The driver behind this is that GEN Milley wants to defeat foreign body armor with a bullet that is steel based to avoid the cost and strategic availability limitations of tungsten. I think this is a mistake, personally.

 

[RTV]

The driver behind this is that GEN Milley wants to defeat foreign body armor with a bullet that is steel based to avoid the cost and strategic availability limitations of tungsten. I think this is a mistake, personally.

sounds like a reasonable objective to me.

whats your reasoning for not liking it.

 

[RyanScott]

The guns are significantly heavier and the ammunition is larger than if not also heavier than 5.56. They recoil more also. Kn return your get the ability to penetrate a roughly 11x13 plate on a persons chest. Which is a small fraction of the places someone can be shot. So in the conflicts where you most need ammunition to have a small cube you’ve gone back to battle rifles.

 

[_Windrider_]

The guns are significantly heavier and the ammunition is larger than if not also heavier than 5.56. They recoil more also. Kn return your get the ability to penetrate a roughly 11x13 plate on a persons chest. Which is a small fraction of the places someone can be shot. So in the conflicts where you most need ammunition to have a small cube you’ve gone back to battle rifles.

That’s why I thought they went with polymer cased ammo

True Velocity Delivers Next Gen 6.8mm Ammunition to US Army

True Velocity officials confirmed recently that the Texas-based technology company delivered more than 170k rounds of its 6.8mm ammunition to the U.S. Army

www.ammoland.com

 

[Constructor]

The guns are significantly heavier and the ammunition is larger than if not also heavier than 5.56. They recoil more also. Kn return your get the ability to penetrate a roughly 11x13 plate on a persons chest. Which is a small fraction of the places someone can be shot. So in the conflicts where you most need ammunition to have a small cube you’ve gone back to battle rifles.

At the moment many in Astan are using a 308 because they need more range in that conflict. This new thing will be lighter than a 308, if they go back to the jungles there will always be a trillion AR15s and ammo to use.
Cris Murray has been pushing for a lighter MG for as long as I have known him. His 7mm UIAC would have been perfect but you know how it is trying to sell something to the government if it isn't their idea.

 

[RyanScott]

That’s why I thought they went with polymer cased ammo

True Velocity Delivers Next Gen 6.8mm Ammunition to US Army

True Velocity officials confirmed recently that the Texas-based technology company delivered more than 170k rounds of its 6.8mm ammunition to the U.S. Army

www.ammoland.com

That’s cool and all but a heavier bullet more than replaces the reduced case weight.

At the moment many in Astan are using a 308 because they need more range in that conflict. This new thing will be lighter than a 308, if they go back to the jungles there will always be a trillion AR15s and ammo to use.
Cris Murray has been pushing for a lighter MG for as long as I have known him. His 7mm UIAC would have been perfect but you know how it is trying to sell something to the government if it isn't their idea.

The Army doesn’t have a training program for long range shooting outside of SOF and snipers. Instead soldiers are trained to reserve their aMunition fir the 300m pop up target in case they need a follow up shot after missing a closer target. That’s a more pressing problem than engaging near peer enemies in body armor.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I have doubts about this. 6.5 Grendel should have been the new choice, if any. I'll believe in this 6.8 schtuff when I see it being issued.

Greg

 

[RyanScott]

6.5G is heavy, has limited penetration in some targets and has no notable advantages at close range.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Here are a couple things to consider in regards to the NGSW stuff.
1. Everything we see about it is based purely on a PPON (Prototype Project Opportunity Notice, not an actual solicitation and tender for said NGSW.
2. The expected Prototype OTA period of performance is up to 8 years with delivery of weapons and ammunition expected within 27 months after award. The Prototype OTAs were awarded on 29 August 2019.
3. All 3 of those were given signed contracts to provide NOTHING more than a prototype within the OTA timeframe.
4. There are major issues in the ammunition performance desires of these prototypes.

They are NO WHERE near giving anyone the NGSW contract since they have not even written a solicitation and tender proposal. They will utilize results and failures of the prototypes to draft an official tender request MAYBE....or they just close it up when they realize they do not need complete new weapon systems to accomplish the mission of the NGSW. They just need to change projectiles in current ammuntion.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[RyanScott]

Closing that capabilities gap will make the training gap worse, and cause physical and logistical fatigue more quickly than existing weapons system.

 

[RyanScott]

That’s assuming that what is essentially a 16” 270WSM is a step forward.

It does make sense on belts so there is that.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Is the new FN Mk 48 Mod 2 in 6.5 Creed being used at all overseas?

Also I wonder whatever happened to the LWMMG or whatever its called, the .338 Norma Machine Gun..?

Personally IMO Im with @RyanScott I think the 5.56 does just fine for a primary weapon out to 500-600yd and allows for a ton of ammo to be carried. Afghanistan is a unique environment and it seems our military leaders dont expect the next battlefield to be the same. If we want better long range marksmanship, I think we should look at training first.
In the cutting edge units, they've gone to shorter/lighter weapons as much as possible eg: Mk 18's, 10" HK416's, 14.5" M4 URGI, 14.5" and 16" SR25's, HK CSASS, shorty Mk 46's and Mk 48's, etc.
Btw, have any of yall tried the new M855A1 or M80A1 rounds yet? Thoughts?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

URGI still hasn't been fielded.

Are you sure about that? Thats definitely news to me. Arfcom has a thread on the URGI, Combat Diver is a frequent posting member there who is a special forces armorer and has posted several pics of URGI's in the field. Geissele rail, Daniel Defense 14.5" mid length gas barrel, etc.

14.5" Upper Receiver Group, Improved- NSN 1005-01-671-3911

Heres an operator's URGI posted from just a few days ago...??

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Another operator's URGI overseas..

Are you thinking of a different rifle? Im 99.9% sure the M4 URGI is currently in USASOC hands and has largely replaced the M4 block 2 with DD RIS II rail..

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

.

 

[Woodland_Wolf_M81]

Personally IMO Im with @RyanScott I think the 5.56 does just fine for a primary weapon out to 500-600yd and allows for a ton of ammo to be carried.

In the cutting edge units, they've gone to shorter/lighter weapons as much as possible eg: Mk 18's, 10" HK416's, 14.5" M4 URGI, 14.5" and 16" SR25's, HK CSASS, shorty Mk 46's and Mk 48's, etc.

Seems like the M4 and M249 will continue on for the foreseeable future. This was one of the questions that TFB posed to Lt. Col. Jason Bohannon (Product Manager – Next Generation Weapons)and Matthew Walker (Capabilities Developer, Soldier Lethality Cross Functional Team at U.S. Army Futures Command).


TFB: What is the expected role of the M4 after NGSW weapons begin to be fielded? Will it fill an M1 Carbine-esque echelon role or gradually be phased out entirely?

Walker: “Vietnam was the last time we really had the separation of weapon types between the Close Combat Forces. While most engagements are somewhere between 150 and 250 meters, there’s really not a lot of long range shots. But there is a need, in our view, for the close combat Infantryman to have a weapon that affords him the capability specifically against near-peer threats to still reach out and touch somebody at range. The M4 will remain in the force in Brigade Combat Teams. The NGSW-AR will replace the M249s in the [Squad Automatic Weapon] role, but the 249s in the LMG role – those will stay in light machine gun roles where they’re equipped with a longer barrel, etc.”

Exclusive Interview with US Army Next Generation Squad Weapon Program Leaders

Nearly a year ago the US Army awarded three OTA contracts as part of its Next Generation Squad Weapon program. TFB had the pleasure of speaking with Lt. Col. Jason Bohannon, PM - Next Generation Weapons, and Matthew Walker, Capabilities Developer, Soldier Lethality Cross Functional Team about...

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[RyanScott]

That’s bizarre. Should be the other way around.

 

[Unknown]

Something I don't understand. They showed and talked about careless ammo, yet the guns they fired seemed to all be ejecting brass cartridge cases.

 

[RyanScott]

It’s not caseless it’s cased telescopic. The bullet resides inside a plastic case.

 

[Zoomie]

We've always cycled in new weapons, and occasionally new calibers. That's just wisdom. But the recent advances in both munitions and armor add more complexities, and thus more urgency to the development of weapons better suited to meet the evolving near-peer threats.

In these times, you don't fight tomorrow's war with the last one's weapons.

 

[TheGerman]

I can’t fucking stand “tactical rifleman”. I hate the way he talks

It's Kaaaaaeeeerllll.

I like him. Only thing that gave me a seizure was when I saw what his plate carrier looked like.

I'm now also saddened by KaaaaaeeeRRrrlll's choice of military UTV.

 

[Makinchips208]

Any updates to this subject in the past year? I don’t see where a decision has been made for selection yet.
Is it thread necromancy if it’s over a year old?

 

[357Max]