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K-Bars  Ultralight self defense blade for female runner

jbell

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  • Jan 16, 2010
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    I am researching and will be purchasing a knife for my daughter to carry on her while running. She puts a lot of miles in mostly on trails so it needs to be light weight, have a secure carry system (that will not flop around and irritate / chafe her), be easy to access and deploy, can be carried under clothing. I am not looking for a “combat knife” that is capable of killing someone, rather something that can effectively deter an attack and create space / an opportunity to get away.

    I just wanted to reach out and see what I am missing in my search. Thank you
     

    sirhrmechanic

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    HFB pneumo spike. Weighs nothing. Penetrates anything. No slashing or knife- fighting involved. Poke, wiggle, attacker bleeds out internally. Peritonitis is another nice side benefit for low strikes.

    7716D3C3-20CC-482F-AFA3-205DDF133C33.jpeg

    Cheap to buy. Easy to conceal. Easy to learn. It’s the American Express of EDC. Don’t leave home without it.

    Sirhr
     

    sirhrmechanic

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    HFB pneumo spike. Weighs nothing. Penetrates anything. No slashing or knife- fighting involved. Poke, wiggle, attacker bleeds out internally. Peritonitis is another nice side benefit for low strikes.

    View attachment 7569005
    Cheap to buy. Easy to conceal. Easy to learn. It’s the American Express of EDC. Don’t leave home without it.

    Sirhr
    Also great for corn on the cob, fondue, roasting marshmallows, tires on assholes in cars parked in handicapped zones, cleaning under fingernails, you name it! Sirhr
     

    ma smith

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    What kind of altercation are you envisioning while trail running? I'd probably focus on communications like best possible cellphone coverage or sat-coms etc vs something like a knife which is only useful in last meter engagments. By then you are in a physical altercation and will want/need 3rd party help.
     

    huntingthem

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    Price point?

    Auto or manual?

    Pocket carry or sheath?

    Also have you considered non lethal before lethal comes out?

    I carry this before the guns and knives come out https://foxlabs.com/

    Is a Lady J frame out of the question?

    Does she even have knife training?

    Is she capable of taking a life?

    She breaks out a knife and the assailant breaks out a gun then what?

    A Knife is doing nothing to a rabid dog or critter before it gets you first either...........

    She needs to realize kill or be killed and a knife is only useful when hand to hand while a sidearm she can maintain her distance and still kill.
     
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    ma smith

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    Yea ATT, Verizon or Smith & Wesson, that's a tuffy........
    OP's not looking for standoff weapon like smith and wesson, he's looking for ultralikght knife worn under clothing. Its not coming out until the engagement is underway. But any engagement serious enought deploy the threat of lethal force, while at the same time gives you enough time to develop the knife as a deterrent, IMHO you might as well already call the police/rangers etc...because you'll need it....eg to secure your egress...if not simply for the immediate situation.
     
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    gac700

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    I bike ride great trails through our state with a friend. Personally, I don’t believe a lone woman should run or bike trails. I feel the same way for my friend and I.

    For women, it is purely a safety issue. She needs to carry if personal safety is the ultimate goal.

    My friend is old enough to be my dad. You never know when a tire is going to pop, someone bites the dirt, wind starts howling, weather, etc., and we ride a flat trail.

    I’m just not a fan of seeing women running or biking alone, but the same thing goes for dudes. One is none, two is one.

    I’d look at a Smith&Wesson Airweight with a quality laser grip and the knife Sihr suggested. I am going to buy that hog-sticker to pair with the gun.
     

    Sgtsideways

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    Maybe OC spray might be the better alternative. I look at it as bringing a knife to a gun fight with attackers who are pretty well rehearsed in their trade. Is she mature enough to have a small concealed auto?
    I know this depends on the state laws and the level of maturity, but having known a survivor, the psychological effects can be devastating. She wishes she had the maximum advantage in looking back at what happened. Has attempted suicide on numerous occasions and been in and out of psych wards.
    There used to be knives that could be concealed in the hair and there are ones that can be hung around the neck.
     

    rth1800

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    Any of the medium sized skeleton type knives. Reece, Buck, etc. wear on neck in Kydex sheath. Get razor sharp and use for nothing else.
    A Randall triathlon is superb if budget allows it and you can find one. The sheath it comes with is leather and slightly bulky but custom Kydex is an option.
     
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    powdahound76

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    "stay home, dont live life due to fear" is all I read in that. I have a pretty daughter. that sure isn't what I teach her.
    I used to backpack up remote places in AK solo for 7+ days at a time. in coastal grizzly country. Good decision making goes miles and miles. Human predators are way different for sure. Still not gonna hide at home only using the treadmill or the track at school.

    @jbell - I believe yours are too young to legally carry a pistol concealed in your AO?
    I dont disagree that a lightweight revolver is a good option in a belly band. paired with a blade of some sort and pepper spray would be good.
    LCR for me based on ease of finding when I needed for an exceptional price and much easier to shoot well than the Smith LW revolvers (trigger).

    and I do think that without some formal stabby stabby training for an edged rig, that HFB spike might be about perfect.

    I do carry a ZT folder with titanium handle as well as the LCR. Not a tack knife, but sharp, easy to deploy quick, and light enough its not in the way. more because I dont like to be anywhere without a knife than its usefulness in a fight, but it would work.

    AND THIS: if she is out on trails a lot, does she wear headphones?
    I know a friend who used to. She is the standard CO mountain hottie, very fit, looks darn good in shorts or running tights, runs a lot and ended up dealing with a couple creeps on trails (in a pretty crowded open space in the metro area). Said she didn't notice the dudes either catching up to her or meeting her and turning around to follow her.
    She is no stranger to dudes flirting. She said these guys got close and then were up in her space very fast and weren't keen on giving her space when she kept backing away till the pepper spray was visible.
    She had on head phones and couldn't hear their steps approaching from the rear. Now if she runs trails, she runs headphone free.
     

    huntingthem

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    OP's not looking for standoff weapon like smith and wesson, he's looking for ultralikght knife worn under clothing. Its not coming out until the engagement is underway. But any engagement serious enought deploy the threat of lethal force, while at the same time gives you enough time to develop the knife as a deterrent, IMHO you might as well already call the police/rangers etc...because you'll need it....eg to secure your egress...if not simply for the immediate situation.
    Nobody can put a price on their kid and maybe the OP just hasn't thought the whole scenario out yet and he's tunnel visioned on only one thing happening.

    Why do people always think it just going to be one person on one person?

    What about multiple assailants? What about wildlife showing how wild it can get? Rabid animals? Pack of Pits?

    What's a knife and cell phone going to do?

    See it ALL THE TIME in these parts and in any town anywhere, here come ANOTHER pack of dogs

    Just a few links but they are ENDLESS around here

    Knife and cell ain't doing a darn thing but providing a false sense of security.




     
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    Longshot231

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    Take a look at push daggers. I would stay away from the Benchmade knives on this page. It would take some skill to use those blades.

    The push dagger doesn't need to be very big. When held in the hand, she can make a fist around it. She can punch with it. If the attacker tries to block her punch he would, more than likely, get cut. Getting cut can take the fight out of most people.

    If you get her a push dagger, tell her not to try a swing or round house type of punch. Tell her to jab with the knife. It's pretty easy to block a swing without getting cut compared to a jab. Even if she only succeeds in making a cut on the attacker's arms or hands it could buy her enough time to run away.

    Also check with the knife laws in your state. Some states have come around to making it easier and legal for people to carry knives which main purpose is a weapon. Other states still have knife laws that are worse than some gun laws.


    For some reason, some folks don't like Cold Steel knives. I like them. The little fat guy gets laughed at for some of his videos. However, I learned a long time ago, don't underestimate the little fat guys.


     
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    SRPowah

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    What kind of altercation are you envisioning while trail running? I'd probably focus on communications like best possible cellphone coverage or sat-coms etc vs something like a knife which is only useful in last meter engagments. By then you are in a physical altercation and will want/need 3rd party help.
    Have you tried calling the cops on a sat-phone while having a man tackle you? lol Focusing on a tool to end the physical altercation should come before a tool that relies on the altercation being temporarily over.

    In Illinois, we had guys hop out of vans to try and grab female runners. Phone ain't gonna help you unless you want to stop every time you see a larger suv/van and pre-emptively call 911.
     

    mcameron

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    this little thing is handy, can tie it into shoe laces or just wear it around your neck

    cold steels delta dart is also pretty handy and light weight
     
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    ma smith

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    Have you tried calling the cops on a sat-phone while having a man tackle you? lol Focusing on a tool to end the physical altercation should come before a tool that relies on the altercation being temporarily over.

    In Illinois, we had guys hop out of vans to try and grab female runners. Phone ain't gonna help you unless you want to stop every time you see a larger suv/van and pre-emptively call 911.
    Ambush style attack there is no use of a concealed knife as a deterrent. Just like a mountain lion coming over the back shoulder.

    As others have also pointed out, IMHO a bad person isn't going to necessarily engage in some kind of arms lenth standoff.

    That being said, the OP may have different scenarios in mind...eg like creeps trying to "chat up" as a way to get close, etc...in the latter case, displaying a weapon makes more sense.

    At least it does if you think you can de-escalate the altercatin and safeley egress the area.

    But IMHO any kind of altercation in a remote area, combined with any element of suprise, etc I'd want help on the way.

    Because the exit route might not be secure and both parties need to escape at that point.

    If the victim and the attacker (or plural) are trying to exit the same route, its not necessarily a safe situation after the altercation either... eg going back to a parking lot along a long access trail.

    Hope that makes more sense.

    PS -- OP I'm not trying to be a "no fun" panic kind of person, just thinking thru the situation that you expect sometimes is a useful exercise. Best of luck whatever you choose.
     
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    diverdon

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    The daughter may not by old enuf to carry a hand gun in her state. I just wonder if she could be persuaded to take up a martial art. If you have a BJJ, Judo, Karate club near by take her for a few lessons, if she likes it a lot of options open up.

    If edged weapons are a key part of your plan and you can find someone to teach some Escrima/Arnis that would be ideal.

    My eight year old daughter started in a Karate dojo at four. She is now a first que Brown belt. At our school Escrima is done three days a month and BJJ four days per month. The rest of the days are Karate. Too points Ide like to make.

    First if my daughter can get her hands on a knife or a stick very few adults could control her. Second, though it's gone out of fashion, I like Karate as the first in the mix because of the emphasis on staying on your feet and fighting back to your feet when knocked down. When you are on your feet you have more opportunity to run away. It's good to know how to pull guard but it's a hard position to scoot off from.

    Boxing or Muah Thai would work too if you have a gym nearby.

    I'm just trying to share the thought that weapons work better for people who know how to fight.

    The other half of the equation is situational awareness. The right mindset let's people see and avoid trouble before it touches them. I never let my kids use head phones in public. Hear the world around you. Keep the phone in your pocket. Learn to read people and situations.

    Scattered thoughts sorry.
     

    ForgeValley

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  • Jan 22, 2018
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    Hey jbell,

    Spent a lifetime on the trails, running, hiking, and riding. I've thought a lot about self defense in the backcountry, not just in an academic way. The answer for me and my daughters always ended up being a smallish 9mm handgun carried in a way that could be tolerated. It's easier to carry hiking or riding than running. I've done it running with a Hill People Gear snubby kit bag. Totally get the difference in anatomy for that particular solution however. Something like this might work.



    I know you asked about edged weapons and I respect that. Maybe your daughter is not old enough to carry a handgun, maybe not willing, or not legal where she is running (although if a handgun is not legal, a concealed edged weapon of the kind discussed probably isn't either). Whatever the reason, please get her training on whatever you decide on.

    And in my opinion, a small, lightweight edged weapon against multiple assailants, or critters, or a truly determined large male, is a distant second choice.
     

    502Chevelle

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    Interesting how people will recommend getting a sat phone to carry with you while you go for a run. When you get assaulted call the cops and wait 10 minutes for them to get there. It really chaps my ass when I read such nonsense. To the OP, go look at the Enyo by Spartan blades. It is very small, very sharp, and can take care of business if the need arises. I have one, and it is small and concealable. It is easy to deploy. Highly recommended.
     

    jbell

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  • Jan 16, 2010
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    First off thank you for all the replies! I completely understand all the points of view mentioned here. Maybe I should give a little more detail:

    My daughter is 16 and is one of the fastest high school XC females in the state. She is training with a professional coach (not her HS coach) & has been since her freshman year. That is to say she isn’t just out for a casual trail run or fitness run, depending on the session it could be a very intense run. So weight and comfort is a priority. With maintaining a very high GPA and training at such a high level she truly does not have time to start training BJJ (which we have looked into extensively). I have been training both of my daughters since they were 7-8 years old in situational awareness, self defense, having E&E plans in place and updating them as terrain and situations change, basically how to stay out of a bad situation. In my humble opinion there are several layers of ”personal protection“ in place. This would merely be a last result option if a person is somehow to make contact and grab on to create separation for her to haul ass, I am quite confident that she could out run pretty much anyone especially when the adrenaline kicks in. I am not looking for a stand your ground and fight kind of weapon. Personally I am opposed to any form of OC spray, I am very familiar with it’s pros and cons. I am a fan of a small light handgun but being 16 the legal issues are too high risk for a very low percentage of need, but in a few years of course.

    Again think of a tool that is #1 safe and secure to run at a very high level with safety, no need in creating a problem. With the ability to create separation as a last resort. Thanks again everyone!
     

    jbell

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    I do like that Enyo! And I am going through the endless amount of push blades.

    oh, price is no option but she is very good at loosing everything so...
     
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    Odysseus1911

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    To the OP: you've received some great suggestions, but some may not be useable based on laws in your AO or personal considerations. Also, I think we're all dumber for having heard the continued suggestion that a sat phone is the answer (for reasons obvious to everyone in the room except the guy who keeps suggesting it). It would help if we knew specifics of your daughter's situation.

    How old is she?

    Where she runs, is it legal to carry a concealed handgun?

    Is it legal to carry a concealed edged weapon, if so, what length is allowed?

    On a scale of 1 to 10 (in a life-threatening confrontation) what do you estimate the amount of fight in her is? This is the most relevant question of all, because the mind/mindset is the either the greatest weapon or the greatest handicap a person has. There are instances of gun-carrying women who were attacked and couldn't pull the trigger and paid dearly as a result. There are unarmed women who were attacked who had so much fight in them that their attacker fled bloody with them still trying to tear a strip out of them. If she freezes or crumples at confrontation, a weapon isn't going to help; she's going to require another person to defend her.
     

    2aBaCa

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    HFB pneumo spike. Weighs nothing. Penetrates anything. No slashing or knife- fighting involved. Poke, wiggle, attacker bleeds out internally. Peritonitis is another nice side benefit for low strikes.

    View attachment 7569005
    Cheap to buy. Easy to conceal. Easy to learn. It’s the American Express of EDC. Don’t leave home without it.

    Sirhr
    HFB and cheap to buy dont belong in the same post.
     

    ma smith

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    Interesting how people will recommend getting a sat phone to carry with you while you go for a run. When you get assaulted call the cops and wait 10 minutes for them to get there. It really chaps my ass when I read such nonsense. To the OP, go look at the Enyo by Spartan blades. It is very small, very sharp, and can take care of business if the need arises. I have one, and it is small and concealable. It is easy to deploy. Highly recommended.
    If you've spent any time in the BC in the past 10 years, sat-coms are not necessarily phones. And not every altercation needs to be engaged. Again, if you are deploying lethal force in the BC you are already in a shit-ton of trouble. If you think its good idea to be alone in this situation you're not thinking clearly.

    If that kid gets injured trying to fist-fight, knife-fight, or martial-arts there way out of a truly dangerous situation, they then also become a sitting duck...and all it takes is a rock to the head, a sprained ankle, or slip and fall, etc to make this kind of altercation even sketchier.

    The concept is to buy time, not to fight every battle in the moment.

    These things let you text from your phone without cell service and engage emergency services with your GPS location.

    Again, I'm not saying don't consider a weapon, don't consider a standoff weapon, etc. I am saying carefully think thru the lilkely engagement scenarios and think about complete survivability of avoiding/surviving/and getting home safely.
     

    ForgeValley

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    Couple of thoughts jbell.

    I truly wonder if the local DA would see a difference in a 16 year old carrying an illegal push dagger or other edged weapon vs an illegal handgun? How do they view carry vs actually having to using in self defense? Knife laws are a crazy mish mash of state and local laws.

    And just food for thought, in 20 years of trail running I have injured myself probably half a dozen times badly enough (rolled ankles, broken toes) that I wasn't breaking contact with anyone.

    Just some more thoughts, no easy answers especially for a minor. When mine were that young the answer was bearspray. 😀

    Edited to add... Include mtn biking wrecks and that number is closer to a dozen... Broken ribs, collarbone, wrist. 😂
     
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    jbell

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    Oh, a few more thoughts:

    No folders or any complicated retention system, this has to be gross motor skills only. If you have ever been in a real bad situation then you will understand. This will be something we WILL train with in all kind of scenarios. Both my daughters have all kinds of fight in them and I am continually reinforcing in them the absolute necessity for violence of action. Hopefully we will never really know, but we are preparing as best as possible.

    As far as the phone thing and getting help, those contingencies are in place well before this would come in to play.
     

    jbell

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    My main concern with any sort of spray is the complexity of getting it deployed without disabling yourself: wind, orientation, extreme close proximity of the perp. That is a lot of things to consider when you will not have the presence of mind to do so.
     
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    W54/XM-388

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    There seems to be some unspoken assumption that the potential attacker won't be armed themselves?
    Getting into a knife fight when there isn't an ambulance handy to get the "winner" to surgery could be a bit more challenging.
     
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    tag2601

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    be the OP just hasn't thought the whole scenario out yet and he's tunnel visioned on only one thing happening.

    Why do people always think it just going to be one person on one person?

    What about multiple assailants? What about wildlife showing how wild it can get? Rabid animals? Pack of Pits?

    What's a knife and cell phone going to do?

    See it ALL THE TIME in these parts and in any town anywhere, here come ANOTHER pack of dogs

    Just a few links but they are ENDLESS around here

    Knife and cell ain't doing a darn thing but providing a false sense of security.
     

    SMC21

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    Not a huge fan of Gerber, but I like this for light, easy to carry, quick access, likely jurisdictionally legal and fits in the hand well.

    Ghost Strike

    resource_gerberamericas_30-001005.ashx
     

    Odysseus1911

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    Oh, a few more thoughts:

    No folders or any complicated retention system, this has to be gross motor skills only. If you have ever been in a real bad situation then you will understand. This will be something we WILL train with in all kind of scenarios. Both my daughters have all kinds of fight in them and I am continually reinforcing in them the absolute necessity for violence of action. Hopefully we will never really know, but we are preparing as best as possible.

    As far as the phone thing and getting help, those contingencies are in place well before this would come in to play.
    I agree. No folders.

    My wife is a life-long XC runner and was in the top 10 in our state in high school. After discussing this with her, she said a long blade like a pneumo spike is a no go for XC because your whole body is flexing and bending as you negotiate uneven terrain at speed. We think a push dagger is the answer.
     
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    Leftie

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    I'm going to take a different perspective here than some of the posts, because from my experience, once a person (or multiple persons) determined in doing you harm commit to closing distance with you, your possibility of avoiding a confrontation outside of a binary choice between using force or vigorously creating distance, time, and signature (raising living hell to the extent that an attacker will perceive a greater chance of being "caught") narrows with every inch of ground that you give. With that in mind, I really think that, for most people, situational awareness is the most important component that, while it isn't as sexy as a carry gun or new knife, will consistently save your hide anywhere in the world.

    Spotting Danger Before it Spots You by Gary Queensbury is a really, really good book on the subject, and honestly addresses how to begin to cultivate situational awareness. I say "begin to cultivate" because situational awareness is an art form that requires dedication and being "on" and "tuned in" to your environment and baselines therein more so than anything else. It's one of the greatest soft skills you can acquire, and one that I think should really be a beginning point for all self-defense/martial arts conversations, as "not being there" because you proactively saw the pattern and acted upon it will solve your problem 100% of the time, every time, outside of missing cues or being properly ambushed by a well-practiced and resourced adversary. The other "pink-squishy" component that is important is a willingness to accept violence and the consequences therein for all parties.

    Violence changes people, and it's easy to say that you're capable of it when you don't have experience in dealing with the consequences; sad to say, but everyone has at least one person who loved them enough to nurture them to the point where they are in life - when violence becomes an answer to a specific problem, it's crucial to know what you are capable of, and that you unquestionably accept the responsibility of your actions: if you don't, it will haunt you and eat away at your quality of life and well-being from that moment onward, and also cause untold anguish in unexpected ways, years later. I can't emphasize this component enough.

    I absolutely advocate for self-defense training and knowing how to skillfully use bare-handed techniques, as well as knives, sticks, and firearms for personal protection, but I really do believe that situational awareness is THE underlying component. I've gotten my ass handed to me and put in reactive mode by not identifying and acting on what should have been obvious to be before things turned into fights.

    Given what the OP just posted, I tend to recommend a few things generally for "urban trails"

    Since the person in question is not lawfully allowed to carry a gun yet, optimizing the following things will likely help them:
    Situational awareness, great cardio, and a carry solution for hydration, communication, illumination, a space blanket, and a pointy solution are likely the best combination of barebones things that will help solve problems from 6AM to 8PM on trails in a residential or suburban area.

    Regarding communication: if there is good cell coverage, then a cell phone with a charged battery is more than sufficient - I would go and dry run the trail to understand the comms footprint. Remember that anything outside of being across the street from a squad car means that comms brings resources measured in multiple minutes following an incident... I've provided initial care for around 7 hours on a ridgeline while waiting for a SAR team to arrive in order to extract someone who was injured in an extremely well-resourced national park, within 6 miles of a trailhead. The ONLY way that this happened was through a direct initiation of the EMS system by me via cell phone - I asked a number of passers-by to also get help when they reached a park ranger or a trailhead, and nothing happened. That being said, there are some advantages and disadvantages to other types of comms. A note on satcom: learn how satellite phones work, and buy from a reputable company with a decent constellation if you are intent on using it. They are bulky, expensive, and do not work like a regular cell phone; unless you really need the niche services that they provide, I wouldn't go this route. Also, I really prefer running with either one headphone in if I have to, or using a bone-conduction headset to preserve situational awareness if I actually need music or an audio book.

    Regarding the actual edged solution: I stay away from folders that don't have a "wave" style opening device, and really prefer fixed blades with extremely grippy handles: chances are that, if you are deploying a knife for use, you're already in reactive, gross motor-skill land and you are well into your adrenaline-dump. In that case, the simpler to deploy, the better. Push daggers can be highly illegal depending on the locality, but certain pick-like tools are not and are inexpensive, easily modified, and extremely quick to put into the fight when carried correctly. Ask many people who have spent extensive time abroad, and they will likely tell you that a screwdriver that has been modified is a horrifyingly efficient problem solver when used right, and a usable sheath can be constructed pretty simply. It's also extremely cheap by comparison to other options. A carry solution for any solution should be built around the clothing worn: I'm a huge fan of Discreet Carry Concepts clips (in fact, I won't shut up about them because I like them so much) because their performance is unrivaled when it comes to actually carrying anything on a belt. I would seriously check them out. The other suggestion for @jbell would be to try out different carry solutions to include placement, cant, and accessibility - this was a game-changer for me, as I evolved different setups to suit what I needed them for, and trained around the principles to deploy them efficiently. It's definitely a journey with no "canned" solution that fits everyone.

    My advice changes somewhat depending on if the running environment is a city, suburb, rural, or remote environment, with the constant emphasis being placed on situational awareness and proper mindset.
     

    2aBaCa

    Humans are amusing
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    Minuteman
    Jan 27, 2019
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    Behind enemy lines Northern Commiefornia
    16yr old daughter? Theres only one option. Dual ninja swords.
    840059_DoubleNinjaSword_CUP15.jpg



    Jokes aside. Is it deterant in the case of a confrontation or effective defense in an altercation?

    Are tasers out of the equation?

    Are we narrowing it down to bladed or pointed weapons? Is she trained? If not she should at least have some basics.

    If going this route I would lean towards a self defense spike or simply a small auto OTF pocket knife like the mini infidel.


    HFB are at the pinnacle and are wickedly intimidating. A little bulkier.
    KNIVES-HALFFACE-REVIEW-02.jpg

    Or
    Self_Defense_Claw_01.jpg

    aliuminum-self-defense-weapons-safety-for.jpg


    Or if shes open to the midevil warrior princess thing.

    b554fcd25d743db2b8fa2b32c4bab5da.jpg



    As stated above the best defense is to avoid the scenario altogether. Unfortunately to do this she has to put more thought into daily routines than most.
     

    Wyfox

    Gun Snob
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    Minuteman
  • May 24, 2012
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    This and the trainer blade and help her train with it. The link has a short video on deploying and using it as a defensive tool.

     

    Evintos

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    Sep 19, 2008
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    One thing to consider is what your daughter naturally does to strike someone with her fist. Is she a natural puncher or does she use a hammer fist. Women tend to naturally use hammer fist strikes, men tend to punch. Push dagger/punch daggers aren't a great choice if she won't train to throw a punch.

    If she won't train to deploy folders, stick with fixed blades. I recommend something along the lines of a https://www.crkt.com/obake.html or any of the previously mentioned dagger and spike styles that facilitate an reverse grip/ice pick grip (stuff with relatively straight blades, narrow, stabbing optimized rather than slashing).

    Of course consider legalities in your area regarding daggers, length, etc.
     
    Last edited:

    Leftie

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    Apr 26, 2019
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    This and the trainer blade and help her train with it. The link has a short video on deploying and using it as a defensive tool.

    The SOCP Mini is a fantastic carry at 12 o'clock for running. The full-length SOCP is good, but can interfere with a running stride, and doesn't have the little leather pad, which makes a huge difference on bare skin.

    While I'm not a huge fan of closed-rings (research what a de-gloving is... not for the faint of heart) in certain violently aggressive applications, this blade is a really solid option. The SOCP-Rescue is great as well.

    Another seemingly decent option that I've been evaluating for personal use is the Dynamis SMR blade (I picked up a trainer to try out)... I like the "hook tail" design a lot for gross motor skills - it's faster into play in a reverse grip when properly oriented than accessing a ring (which is universally ambidextrous but harder to "find" with a single hand when engaged, I've found)- such as what's on the SOCP. The jury is still out in my book on the SMR, but I do like it as a very lightweight, useful blade when you need "a blade".
     

    Anb618

    I Know My Rights...
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    Dec 18, 2017
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    For a cheap and concealable knife, the KaBar TDI is just about impossible to beat. I can’t believe no one has recommended it yet.

    Your most important requirement seems (to me) to be comfort during dynamic movement. If you buy her a knife she can feel digging into her while running, she’ll never wear the damn thing. The blade-to-handle transitioning curved shape of the TDI fits very comfortably over the hip bone in appendix carry, or identically in a reverse grip position in SOB carry. With a little sharpening, it’s a very competent last ditch weapon that rides comfortably and hides well even in tight fitting athletic clothing. At $40, cant be beat.
     
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    mkollman74

    Quo Vadis?
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  • Nov 5, 2009
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    "stay home, dont live life due to fear" is all I read in that. I have a pretty daughter. that sure isn't what I teach her.
    I used to backpack up remote places in AK solo for 7+ days at a time. in coastal grizzly country. Good decision making goes miles and miles. Human predators are way different for sure. Still not gonna hide at home only using the treadmill or the track at school.

    @jbell - I believe yours are too young to legally carry a pistol concealed in your AO?
    I dont disagree that a lightweight revolver is a good option in a belly band. paired with a blade of some sort and pepper spray would be good.
    LCR for me based on ease of finding when I needed for an exceptional price and much easier to shoot well than the Smith LW revolvers (trigger).

    and I do think that without some formal stabby stabby training for an edged rig, that HFB spike might be about perfect.

    I do carry a ZT folder with titanium handle as well as the LCR. Not a tack knife, but sharp, easy to deploy quick, and light enough its not in the way. more because I dont like to be anywhere without a knife than its usefulness in a fight, but it would work.

    AND THIS: if she is out on trails a lot, does she wear headphones?
    I know a friend who used to. She is the standard CO mountain hottie, very fit, looks darn good in shorts or running tights, runs a lot and ended up dealing with a couple creeps on trails (in a pretty crowded open space in the metro area). Said she didn't notice the dudes either catching up to her or meeting her and turning around to follow her.
    She is no stranger to dudes flirting. She said these guys got close and then were up in her space very fast and weren't keen on giving her space when she kept backing away till the pepper spray was visible.
    She had on head phones and couldn't hear their steps approaching from the rear. Now if she runs trails, she runs headphone free
    This☝️, or use bone conduction headphones.
     

    jbell

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  • Jan 16, 2010
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    I'm going to take a different perspective here than some of the posts, because from my experience, once a person (or multiple persons) determined in doing you harm commit to closing distance with you, your possibility of avoiding a confrontation outside of a binary choice between using force or vigorously creating distance, time, and signature (raising living hell to the extent that an attacker will perceive a greater chance of being "caught") narrows with every inch of ground that you give. With that in mind, I really think that, for most people, situational awareness is the most important component that, while it isn't as sexy as a carry gun or new knife, will consistently save your hide anywhere in the world.

    Spotting Danger Before it Spots You by Gary Queensbury is a really, really good book on the subject, and honestly addresses how to begin to cultivate situational awareness. I say "begin to cultivate" because situational awareness is an art form that requires dedication and being "on" and "tuned in" to your environment and baselines therein more so than anything else. It's one of the greatest soft skills you can acquire, and one that I think should really be a beginning point for all self-defense/martial arts conversations, as "not being there" because you proactively saw the pattern and acted upon it will solve your problem 100% of the time, every time, outside of missing cues or being properly ambushed by a well-practiced and resourced adversary. The other "pink-squishy" component that is important is a willingness to accept violence and the consequences therein for all parties.

    Violence changes people, and it's easy to say that you're capable of it when you don't have experience in dealing with the consequences; sad to say, but everyone has at least one person who loved them enough to nurture them to the point where they are in life - when violence becomes an answer to a specific problem, it's crucial to know what you are capable of, and that you unquestionably accept the responsibility of your actions: if you don't, it will haunt you and eat away at your quality of life and well-being from that moment onward, and also cause untold anguish in unexpected ways, years later. I can't emphasize this component enough.

    I absolutely advocate for self-defense training and knowing how to skillfully use bare-handed techniques, as well as knives, sticks, and firearms for personal protection, but I really do believe that situational awareness is THE underlying component. I've gotten my ass handed to me and put in reactive mode by not identifying and acting on what should have been obvious to be before things turned into fights.

    Given what the OP just posted, I tend to recommend a few things generally for "urban trails"

    Since the person in question is not lawfully allowed to carry a gun yet, optimizing the following things will likely help them:
    Situational awareness, great cardio, and a carry solution for hydration, communication, illumination, a space blanket, and a pointy solution are likely the best combination of barebones things that will help solve problems from 6AM to 8PM on trails in a residential or suburban area.

    Regarding communication: if there is good cell coverage, then a cell phone with a charged battery is more than sufficient - I would go and dry run the trail to understand the comms footprint. Remember that anything outside of being across the street from a squad car means that comms brings resources measured in multiple minutes following an incident... I've provided initial care for around 7 hours on a ridgeline while waiting for a SAR team to arrive in order to extract someone who was injured in an extremely well-resourced national park, within 6 miles of a trailhead. The ONLY way that this happened was through a direct initiation of the EMS system by me via cell phone - I asked a number of passers-by to also get help when they reached a park ranger or a trailhead, and nothing happened. That being said, there are some advantages and disadvantages to other types of comms. A note on satcom: learn how satellite phones work, and buy from a reputable company with a decent constellation if you are intent on using it. They are bulky, expensive, and do not work like a regular cell phone; unless you really need the niche services that they provide, I wouldn't go this route. Also, I really prefer running with either one headphone in if I have to, or using a bone-conduction headset to preserve situational awareness if I actually need music or an audio book.

    Regarding the actual edged solution: I stay away from folders that don't have a "wave" style opening device, and really prefer fixed blades with extremely grippy handles: chances are that, if you are deploying a knife for use, you're already in reactive, gross motor-skill land and you are well into your adrenaline-dump. In that case, the simpler to deploy, the better. Push daggers can be highly illegal depending on the locality, but certain pick-like tools are not and are inexpensive, easily modified, and extremely quick to put into the fight when carried correctly. Ask many people who have spent extensive time abroad, and they will likely tell you that a screwdriver that has been modified is a horrifyingly efficient problem solver when used right, and a usable sheath can be constructed pretty simply. It's also extremely cheap by comparison to other options. A carry solution for any solution should be built around the clothing worn: I'm a huge fan of Discreet Carry Concepts clips (in fact, I won't shut up about them because I like them so much) because their performance is unrivaled when it comes to actually carrying anything on a belt. I would seriously check them out. The other suggestion for @jbell would be to try out different carry solutions to include placement, cant, and accessibility - this was a game-changer for me, as I evolved different setups to suit what I needed them for, and trained around the principles to deploy them efficiently. It's definitely a journey with no "canned" solution that fits everyone.

    My advice changes somewhat depending on if the running environment is a city, suburb, rural, or remote environment, with the constant emphasis being placed on situational awareness and proper mindset.
    This really mirrors what the girls and I have been working on for years. I agree and preach that if you stay out of trouble your rarely ever in trouble but on the off chance I want them to have options.
     
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    Dolomite_Supafly

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    Mar 15, 2009
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    What kind of altercation are you envisioning while trail running? I'd probably focus on communications like best possible cellphone coverage or sat-coms etc vs something like a knife which is only useful in last meter engagments. By then you are in a physical altercation and will want/need 3rd party help.
    People get attacked all the time without warning. Hard to make that call when you have been sucker punched. Women get raped and it would be far easier to use a hidden knife to jab an attacker than it would to get a phone out and make a call while actively being attacked, and that is if you have service in the area. And say you do manage to contact 911, do you think the attacker is just going to stop doing what they are doing because you called 911? NO!

    Another MAJOR consideration in this discussion is how fast help can get to you. In remote areas it can be hours, hell about any jurisdiction has a response time in minutes. And most fights are over before help ever arrives. A minute long fight is a LONG fight for the average person. My county is long and narrow. It takes an officer well over an hour to respond from one end to the other going as fast as they safely can. So I am responsible for myself until they do arrive.

    And even if you do manage to call 911 a lot of times they need a physical location to reference. If you are in a remote area "I'm in the woods" isn't going to cut it. But even so you need to be able to protect yourself until help arrives.

    A cell phone gets help moving but it doesn't protect you.
     
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    nagantguy

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    Aug 28, 2020
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    Not a huge fan of Gerber, but I like this for light, easy to carry, quick access, likely jurisdictionally legal and fits in the hand well.

    Ghost Strike

    resource_gerberamericas_30-001005.ashx
    The Gerber Ghost Strike was one suggestion I was going to make; the other is the Camillus Titanum. Me and the wife both run a lot a do so armed with ECD and blade, cause when you need a knife nothing else will work. Both are easy to carry very light weight have nice grips and both are very sharper cause a dull one is useless. The Camillus Ti isn’t expensive at all and I was skeptical but one of the sharpest and easily sharpenable knives I have ever owned and kydex sheath comes with reversible clip, or holes to strap to forearm ankle ect or war as neck knife. Great option and cheap
    Enough that if lost or “disposed” of its easily replaced.
     

    mcameron

    Two Star General
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  • Nov 17, 2011
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    The daughter may not by old enuf to carry a hand gun in her state. I just wonder if she could be persuaded to take up a martial art. If you have a BJJ, Judo, Karate club near by take her for a few lessons, if she likes it a lot of options open up.

    If edged weapons are a key part of your plan and you can find someone to teach some Escrima/Arnis that would be ideal.

    My eight year old daughter started in a Karate dojo at four. She is now a first que Brown belt. At our school Escrima is done three days a month and BJJ four days per month. The rest of the days are Karate. Too points Ide like to make.

    First if my daughter can get her hands on a knife or a stick very few adults could control her. Second, though it's gone out of fashion, I like Karate as the first in the mix because of the emphasis on staying on your feet and fighting back to your feet when knocked down. When you are on your feet you have more opportunity to run away. It's good to know how to pull guard but it's a hard position to scoot off from.

    Boxing or Muah Thai would work too if you have a gym nearby.

    I'm just trying to share the thought that weapons work better for people who know how to fight.

    The other half of the equation is situational awareness. The right mindset let's people see and avoid trouble before it touches them. I never let my kids use head phones in public. Hear the world around you. Keep the phone in your pocket. Learn to read people and situations.

    Scattered thoughts sorry.
    i am going to tell you something you dont want to hear......but yes.....yes they can.

    1) most martial arts suck...karate sucks...judo sucks...muah thai sucks...thai chi sucks...TKD sucks....escrima sucks

    when you look at the realm of professional (non-disciplinary specific) fighters......they are learning BJJ, Krav, and boxing


    2) size/ strength matters....men by and large are genetically stronger and larger than women.....and even in martial arts that claim "size doesnt matter" like judo and Bjj......size fucking matters.....thats the reason why professional fighters are sorted by weight class, and not by "rank"......and its also why men dont fight women.

    a competent mid level male fighter in nearly every discipline will handily beat the shit out of the top women fighters......no contest......same goes for weight, you can take a 100lb BJJ black belt and put him against a 240lb BJJ purple belt......and they are going to be scraping that 100lb guy off the mat.

    when i was training in BJJ, there were 5' blue and purple rank women that simply could not execute the throws on me...technically everything they were doing was perfect...but the only way they could throw me was if i "assisted"......if i put up even a tiny bit of resistance, they just sat there dry humping me....martial arts are not magic, physics still apply.

    im not saying its a bad thing for women to train in martial arts......they just need to have a realistic expectation of what they can actually do, and what martial arts makes them think they can do.

    i see this all the time in training....especially doing full contact weapons retention training.....more often than not the guy coming in whos been training in some form of martial arts gets a wake up call when he gets thrown around like a rag doll by a guy whos been in construction for 20 yrs.