Sidearms & Scatterguns Underwood 357 Sig 65gr Xtreme Defender Chrono Test
- Thread starter MontanaMarine
- Start date
Solid copper at 2200+ might be good at penetrating certain things, if you get my drift.
Probably not the best load for digging deep, but they seem to handily meet the FBI protocols for penetration.
Anyhoo, I'm not here to argue terminal/wound ballistics. I have been curious how fast these things would actually go from the 6" barrel. Now I know. I figured it was worth sharing.
I generally lean toward the heavier end of the bullet sprctrum. My daily carry is Glock 17 or 19, loaded up with the Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P.
Anyhoo, I'm not here to argue terminal/wound ballistics. I have been curious how fast these things would actually go from the 6" barrel. Now I know. I figured it was worth sharing.
I generally lean toward the heavier end of the bullet sprctrum. My daily carry is Glock 17 or 19, loaded up with the Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P.
Concur with that choice. That's exactly what I stuff in my CZ P-07.
If you have seen the gelatin tests with those bullets, you may be surprised. 2256 fps with a 65 grain, and you are in the ar pistol range with better wound performance. The below link is only at 1400fps, 2250 would be interesting to see.
gel test
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I ran it through quickload at 40ksi for a 20" 357SIG PC carbine: 2636fps with accurate No.5.
Here's some 9x19 AR carbine launching them at 2100 through gel ( of some sort). Seems to go straight enough.
Here's some 9x19 AR carbine launching them at 2100 through gel ( of some sort). Seems to go straight enough.
The chance of a major LE specing in expensive (but quality) Underwood ammo is slim to none. Is it a gimmick or does it actually work, that is a good question. It is however one of the best barrier blind ammo out there. Did pick up some 9mm +P+ and plan on on adding a few to my mag in case the bad guy is behind light cover or otherwise protected.
Best barrier blind? I hope there's credible testing (not some self-licking ice cream cone) to fall back on that.
I'm not going to waste even one cent on some specialty, borderline gimmick, ammo from an unknown maker with zero track record of making duty-worthy ammunition for an event that is even less likely than me having to point a handgun at someone in anger in the first place.
The one I choose to defend myself with is one of the FBI's approved duty loads (Hornady Critical Duty 135 +P). That's going to have to do for me.
So why am I commenting? Because this place has recently been filled with noobs many of whom know no better and I think they deserve to hear an alternative point of view.
No problem, I actually value other people's opinions. I carry Golden saber 124s in my carry gun, but having something with more punch is an option.
I wouldn't feel doubtful about carrying the +P or +P+ Xtreme Defender in my 9mm, either the 65gr or 90gr. The reason I do not, is more to do with cost than anything else.
Historically I've always liked heavy for caliber. 147gr XTP was my carry ammo for many years. A couple years back I decided to go with the Hornady 135gr +P, so that's actually a 'light' bullet.....to my brain....grin.
As far as barriers go, bullet deformation and point clogging are things that don't really apply to the Lehigh bullet. Deflection?...I don't know much about that aspect.
Anyways, these bullets have been around now for several years, I'm just now dabbling in them.
I've watched many of Nieto's(?) vids over on AP2020 channel. He's put them through their paces from 9mm up to 350 Legend at over 3000 fps. Fucking wicked.
Historically I've always liked heavy for caliber. 147gr XTP was my carry ammo for many years. A couple years back I decided to go with the Hornady 135gr +P, so that's actually a 'light' bullet.....to my brain....grin.
As far as barriers go, bullet deformation and point clogging are things that don't really apply to the Lehigh bullet. Deflection?...I don't know much about that aspect.
Anyways, these bullets have been around now for several years, I'm just now dabbling in them.
I've watched many of Nieto's(?) vids over on AP2020 channel. He's put them through their paces from 9mm up to 350 Legend at over 3000 fps. Fucking wicked.
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I'm only about an hour from you, and I used to carry the Underwood 10mm Extreme Penetrator in the woods. It is a super accurate loading, but eventually I realized that if a griz is coming up, I prefer 44 mag hard cast. Just more data on it being effective. Underwood makes very consistent ammo, though. I wouldn't shy away from them based on the brand. That is to say that I would trust their gold dot loaded ammo as much as I would Speer's. Don't think there is much of a need for +p+ though.
LOL says the guy with a join date of 2017 that doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground, in a thread started by someone with a join date of 2001, literally the year SH started.
You really never even think before those dick beaters start strumming away on the keyboard, do you?
Those Underwood loadings and those extreme bullets are very good and do exactly what they claim. You sound like a poor that’s offended by the mere existence of a premium product that they can’t afford.
Using forum signup dates to decide who knows what confirms what I thought of you.
Underwood a premium product? LOL that's a good one.
Montanamarine is very knowledgeable.
I’ll take your assessment of underwood (that you’ve probably never fired a single round of) with a grain of salt considering that you carry hornady ammo.
As a long-time .357 Sig fan/owner, I'm always curious and excited to see and hear about new .357 Sig stuff. This cartridge has pretty much been tossed by the wayside due to pop-culture demands for other options. I wish more companies offered .357 Sig ammo, and cheap plinking ammo, but nobody does. It actually takes LESS steps to load .357 Sig ammo, than it does straight-wall (.40,10mm, 45) or tapered (9mm) cases. Other than brass being expensive, you would think someone out there would make cheap plinking ammo, or maybe even some cheap high-quality remanufactured bulk range ammo? If someone did, they could make a killing...Because more owners would be out shooting their .357 Sigs.
I love my Glock 31C, but I've considered buying a threaded .40 cal barrel, and a threaded 9mm conversion barrel and some Glock 17 mags just so I can affordably shoot the handgun, and also, because 9mm is pretty affordable, and suppressed 9mm is noticeably quieter than .45. or .40. I would love to see what a suppressed .357 Sig would sound like with full-velcity ammo. Might make a nice hunting setup.
I love my Glock 31C, but I've considered buying a threaded .40 cal barrel, and a threaded 9mm conversion barrel and some Glock 17 mags just so I can affordably shoot the handgun, and also, because 9mm is pretty affordable, and suppressed 9mm is noticeably quieter than .45. or .40. I would love to see what a suppressed .357 Sig would sound like with full-velcity ammo. Might make a nice hunting setup.
Hard to believe we've been here darn near 20 years.....in four months I'll be hitting 60 years old.....holy hell......grin
308 Pirate doesn't know me at all, nor do I know him. I haven't really been posting much since he has joined.
I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, though. Actually been doing this for a little while.
I happen to remain a fan of the 308 myself. Here's some 308 goodness of mine that 308 Pirate likely hasn't seen .
A fresh paint job on one of the 308s,
Handloaded 215gr Berger
Taking a couple pokes at 1800 yards. Direct hold with 22.8 mils dialed. Crappy vid quality, old camera, probably 10 years ago. It's short and sweet though.
I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, though. Actually been doing this for a little while.
I happen to remain a fan of the 308 myself. Here's some 308 goodness of mine that 308 Pirate likely hasn't seen .
A fresh paint job on one of the 308s,
Handloaded 215gr Berger
Taking a couple pokes at 1800 yards. Direct hold with 22.8 mils dialed. Crappy vid quality, old camera, probably 10 years ago. It's short and sweet though.
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The chronograph results is pretty interesting. The fluted bullet design itself doesn't interest me in the slightest but what it could eventually lead to is development of other effective higher velocity pistol bullet designs (reliable fragmenting or expanding).
I'm thinking more in terms of something like 75gr Speer Gold Dot (good barrier performance) out of a 11.5" AR and equivalent velocity (around 2300fps) but in a 9mm design for a G19 pistol.
It'd be interesting to see if the development of future pistol ammo trends towards small bore, low grain weight pushed at high velocity vs larger bore, heavier grain weight pushed at slower velocity.
I'm thinking more in terms of something like 75gr Speer Gold Dot (good barrier performance) out of a 11.5" AR and equivalent velocity (around 2300fps) but in a 9mm design for a G19 pistol.
It'd be interesting to see if the development of future pistol ammo trends towards small bore, low grain weight pushed at high velocity vs larger bore, heavier grain weight pushed at slower velocity.
From doing a bit of light barrier testing:
If you want the most penetration get the midrange to heavy Underwood +P+ Extreme Penetrators.
This is especially true if you want it to go through a barrier and then still carry significant energy on the other side.
The +P+ Extreme Defenders are designed more to have good results on stuff without a hard barrier in front of them.
The light ones can get through barriers, but they tend to not carry as much energy past the initial barrier.
Surprisingly, their .45 ACP +P Extreme Penetrators out of a full sized pistol actually have some pretty good penetration on hard barriers and carry energy well past that.
That being said, if you move up to a .44 Magnum pistol with a long barrel shooting their +P+ stuff, it's a whole different level of penetration and energy, even compared to hot 10mm or .45 super.
If you want the most penetration get the midrange to heavy Underwood +P+ Extreme Penetrators.
This is especially true if you want it to go through a barrier and then still carry significant energy on the other side.
The +P+ Extreme Defenders are designed more to have good results on stuff without a hard barrier in front of them.
The light ones can get through barriers, but they tend to not carry as much energy past the initial barrier.
Surprisingly, their .45 ACP +P Extreme Penetrators out of a full sized pistol actually have some pretty good penetration on hard barriers and carry energy well past that.
That being said, if you move up to a .44 Magnum pistol with a long barrel shooting their +P+ stuff, it's a whole different level of penetration and energy, even compared to hot 10mm or .45 super.
You could do a bit of your own testing.
Try things like:
Multiple 1/10th mild steel sheets stacked in a rig with 1" space between each of them
Commercial door that has thin steel on 2 sides with insulation inside and then a target behind that.
Car door with the glass window inside of it.
Open car window with a IIIA vest hanging over it
IIIA vest with clay behind it
Hornady Critical Duty +P rounds are excellent and I carry them.
However I also carry Underwood Extreme Penetrators.
If you try some of the above tests and some others yourself, you may come to the same conclusion that others have come to, in that the Underwood Extreme Penetrators in the heavy +P+ loads have significantly more punch through and energy than the Critical Duty stuff.
That being said, the Critical Duty stuff is probably better suited to being your first line carry ammo due to it's construction and purpose.
The Extreme Penetrators might provide too much penetration against targets without a significant barrier you have to punch through and you would need to be very careful about what was behind your target.
FWIW, I carry Xtreme Penetrator +P because the thing I’m most likely to run into is a momma bear while hunting, and even though there’s an exemption carved out I’d rather not have the lead ammo discussion in California with the game warden.
308 Pirate doesn't know me at all, nor do I know him. I haven't really been posting much since he has joined.
I didn't just just fall off the turnip truck, though. Actually been doing this for a little while.
I happen to remain a fan of the 308 myself. Here's some 308 goodness of mine that 308 Pirate likely hasn't seen .
A fresh paint job on one of the 308s,
Handloaded 215gr Berger
Taking a couple pokes at 1800 yards. Direct hold with 22.8 mils dialed. Crappy vid quality, old camera, probably 10 years ago. It's short and sweet though.
Good to see a familiar face from several other forums (LRH/LRO) that I've been banned from for stating my personal opinions that Admins/owners didn't agree with. I knew your name sounded familiar. But now I remember who you are.
As for me, I agree! .308 Win and .260 Rem are where it's at for me. I don't need some reheated leftover renamed wildcat PRC, ARC, FART to be cool and get the job done.
Mudrunner, I like the midsize rounds, 308 and 30-06 are my precision rifles (still).
Wasn't so long ago a guy would get chastised for talking/sharing anything shooting the 308 past 1000 yards....it was 'arrogant'....lol.
Now that the 'Hail Mary' shot has been legitimized as long range fun by the Overlords with the 50lb 375 UberDooper Magnums firing 2+ miles, it's safe for 308 ELR shooters to speak up.....just not too loudly...….grin.
Wasn't so long ago a guy would get chastised for talking/sharing anything shooting the 308 past 1000 yards....it was 'arrogant'....lol.
Now that the 'Hail Mary' shot has been legitimized as long range fun by the Overlords with the 50lb 375 UberDooper Magnums firing 2+ miles, it's safe for 308 ELR shooters to speak up.....just not too loudly...….grin.
Yep, I remember those days... Hell, it doesn't even seem that long ago. 
You know, maybe that Underwood ammo does all that. Maybe it doesn't. I'm not interested in finding out because those tests simulate situations that
- almost one one could ever justify in court if it ever came to that and/or
- are so unbelieveably remote that they may as well be fantasy
I'll stick to handgun ammo that has been vetted by organizations that a) have the expertise and protocols to test ammo correctly and b) have no vested interest in the results.
I'm fairly mainstream in my carry ammo.
Sometimes being a gun enthusiast just leads one into trying out new stuff to satisfy curiosity.
On the other hand, body armor is becoming more common among many, including the criminals/anarchists. Probably not a high risk here in rural Montana, but who knows what is coming down the pike.
Sometimes being a gun enthusiast just leads one into trying out new stuff to satisfy curiosity.
On the other hand, body armor is becoming more common among many, including the criminals/anarchists. Probably not a high risk here in rural Montana, but who knows what is coming down the pike.
You do realize that the swiss special forces uses the .357 Sig, and so do some agents in the FBI and CIA. So, your argument about it being "vetted by organizations that have the expertise to test oddball cartridges correctly" are completely idiotic. But go right ahead and keep delusionally-pretending that your 9mm is the hype...
Yep, it's an oddball and completely obscure...Nobody with half a brain would EVER use .357 Sig..........
.357 SIG - Wikipedia
The newer SIG Sauer P229 in .357 SIG has been adopted for use by agents and officers of the following national and state law enforcement organizations (LEO):
- United States Secret Service[3][34][failed verification]
- Federal Air Marshals[3]
- Bureau of Industry and Security[citation needed]
- Delaware State Police[3][35]
- Montana Highway Patrol[36]
- Texas Ranger Division[37]
- Virginia State Police[3]
Both the New Mexico State Police[39][failed verification] and the North Carolina State Highway Patrol use SIG Sauer P229s chambered in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Herculaneum (Missouri) Police Department uses the P229 and P226 in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Coral Springs Police Department in Florida uses the Sig P226 and P229 Enhanced Elite pistols chambered in .357 SIG.[40][failed verification] The Orlando Police Department uses the SIG Sauer P229 in .357 SIG.[41][better source needed] In July 2014 it was announced that the North Carolina State Highway Patrol will equip its 1,600 officers with the SIG Sauer P226 in .357 SIG.[42]
Ottawa, Kansas Police Department carried the Glock 31 .357 SIG, but has since moved to the Glock 17 GEN 4 9mm.[43][44]
Chanute, Kansas Police Department issued the SIG Sauer P229 chambered in the caliber.
In 2003 the Pennsylvania Game Commission began issuing its Game Wardens Glock 31 gen3 pistols chambered in .357 SIG, but in late 2019 will be transitioning to Glock 31 gen4 chambered in the same caliber.
You do realize that the swiss special forces uses the .357 Sig, and so do some agents in the FBI and CIA. So, your argument about it being "vetted by organizations that have the expertise to test oddball cartridges correctly" are completely idiotic. But go right ahead and keep delusionally-pretending that your 9mm is the hype...
Yep, it's an oddball and completely obscure...Nobody with half a brain would EVER use .357 Sig..........
.357 SIG - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The newer SIG Sauer P229 in .357 SIG has been adopted for use by agents and officers of the following national and state law enforcement organizations (LEO):
The Tennessee Highway Patrol currently[when?] issues the Glock 31 pistol chambered in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Mississippi Highway Patrol issues the Glock 31 Gen4 in .357 SIG.[38] The Bedford Heights Police Department in Ohio has issued the gen3 Glock 31/32/33 since 2008 and are currently testing gen4 Glock 31s. The Eutawville Police Department in South Carolina issues the Glock 31 in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Elloree Police Department in South Carolina also issues the Glock 31 in .357 SIG, and the Madison Police Department in Madison, WV issues the Glock 32 in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Gouverneur Police Department in New York issues the Glock 32.[citation needed] The Oklahoma Highway Patrol and Rhode Island State Police issue the SIG Sauer P226 in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Paramus Police Department in New Jersey also issues the SIG P229 in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The West Grove Borough Police Department, West Grove PA, also carry the SIG Sauer P229 in the .357 SIG caliber.[citation needed]
- United States Secret Service[3][34][failed verification]
- Federal Air Marshals[3]
- Bureau of Industry and Security[citation needed]
- Delaware State Police[3][35]
- Montana Highway Patrol[36]
- Texas Ranger Division[37]
- Virginia State Police[3]
Both the New Mexico State Police[39][failed verification] and the North Carolina State Highway Patrol use SIG Sauer P229s chambered in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Herculaneum (Missouri) Police Department uses the P229 and P226 in .357 SIG.[citation needed] The Coral Springs Police Department in Florida uses the Sig P226 and P229 Enhanced Elite pistols chambered in .357 SIG.[40][failed verification] The Orlando Police Department uses the SIG Sauer P229 in .357 SIG.[41][better source needed] In July 2014 it was announced that the North Carolina State Highway Patrol will equip its 1,600 officers with the SIG Sauer P226 in .357 SIG.[42]
Ottawa, Kansas Police Department carried the Glock 31 .357 SIG, but has since moved to the Glock 17 GEN 4 9mm.[43][44]
Chanute, Kansas Police Department issued the SIG Sauer P229 chambered in the caliber.
In 2003 the Pennsylvania Game Commission began issuing its Game Wardens Glock 31 gen3 pistols chambered in .357 SIG, but in late 2019 will be transitioning to Glock 31 gen4 chambered in the same caliber.
I'm talking about this particular load, not the cartridge itself.
Let me know when you're going to USPSA nationals. Would love to see your handgun shooting prowess in person.
In that case, then yeah I agree, that particular load is probably not as scientifically proven as the other loads are. With the "oddball" comment I usually hear that about the cartridge itself, and hell, most folks don't even know it exists. So, it's all good. I thought you were talking about the .357 Sig itself.
Did you know if you shoot someone with a .25 Auto, they might notice, and get mad?
Really? I would suggest you conduct your own "meat" target test with beef and or pork bones ,leather,and a beef heart or any other"meat". Then find a car windshield and perhaps a door. Oh...I am sorry,you were referring to "two legged vermin" Maybe even a car full of "gang type" vermin that are wasting our precious oxygen because they are still breathing.
Again?I am a 53yr. old ballistic/gun geek.
I know how hard new things are to accept. Perhaps you would like the 90grn. Version of this projectile. 1550fps for 4.5 inch 9mm barrels.
Yes it is the future. What does your 135grn. criticle duty have left after passing through barriers? Please invest in your own testing and research. Becoming emotionally invested in your "favorite carry round" is counter productive.
Listen dumbshit, when the FBI (which actually approved the Hornady CD 135 +P as a duty round) takes your ballistics research seriously then so will I
Until then you can fuck right off.
1. As a civilian and military combat trauma surgeon no one, if they survive, every complains about the caliber they have been shot with. (sorry mom, she said never finish a sentence with a preposition).
2.Shooting hanging meat.......few historical firearm caliber experiments more interesting then the Thompson-LaGarde report on1911.
3. I really like the .357 Sig in vetted LE rounds.
4. Hippocratic Oath required American enemies were treated better than their own country would offer; this one lived to fight another day.
2.Shooting hanging meat.......few historical firearm caliber experiments more interesting then the Thompson-LaGarde report on1911.
3. I really like the .357 Sig in vetted LE rounds.
4. Hippocratic Oath required American enemies were treated better than their own country would offer; this one lived to fight another day.
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I find the new loads interesting. As technology and ballistics evolve what we consider the norm will definitely evolve. I definitely see monolithic projectiles are the future.
With a loose read of this thread I find the lack of open-mindedness of some folks to be appalling. "I don't like something 'cause I don't like something" sure seems like a crappy way to go about life.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Chastising someone because the are using new school stuff is messed up for sure. I’m sure you see the same thing in regards to 3D printing.
I did the first few years. Switchview specifically throwing a ton of social media shade on printed throw levers. Guess who now has a "Sportsman" line of printed throw levers modeled after mine? LOL
I'll repeat what I said before in case you missed it
Seriously, you guys who love these oddball rounds for even more oddball occasions have it it. They are not mainstream for a reason.
I'll stick to handgun ammo that has been vetted by organizations that a) have the expertise and protocols to test ammo correctly and b) have no vested interest in the results.
Wow, the FBI has agenda other than "what really works the best" Are you not
X military? You should know better.
As for your lack of vocabulary, I can only pity your ignorance and stubbornness.
Trusting the FBI is retarded. They choose ammo and firearms based on the lowest common denominator(and cost). So,unless you are a 100lb. female
agent,sitting at a computer all day; grow up and stop acting like one!
X military? You should know better.
As for your lack of vocabulary, I can only pity your ignorance and stubbornness.
Trusting the FBI is retarded. They choose ammo and firearms based on the lowest common denominator(and cost). So,unless you are a 100lb. female
agent,sitting at a computer all day; grow up and stop acting like one!
Did you not get the memo that I don't care about your stupid gimmick ammo and your opinions?
GFY
By the way, nice use of the quote feature..............LOL
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