Unplugged Phone rollout - I need tech nerd input

[Terry Cross]

Looking for input from any of you nerds that have tech experience in the phone/internet/cell/data security lanes.

A couple of buds pointed me to this new phone rollout. Link: https://www.unplugged.com/

Runs on an Android framework but without GMS and other tools that enable snooping. Kill switch that disconnects the battery from the electronics and a "wipe" feature. Everything outbound is encrypted. Several other features that are aimed at security. I already run Android / Samsung so even I might be comfortable with normal use of the Unplugged phone.

During some of my caveman level internet searches, I found this segment of a Shawn Ryan interview with Erik Prince. They discuss the new Unplugged phone rollout from 1:00 to about 1:08.
Link:


Regarding privacy/security, does this have merit?
What am I not seeing?

Thanks in advance for any constructive input or cautions.

T.

.

 

[kindabitey]

The only thing that looks sketchy to me is the fact it's 100% pre-order and production won't begin until they sell 6000 units. Seems to me they don't have the capital. Or they're confidence is low enough to not risk the available cash on hand, but are more than willing to risk customer funds.

 

[MK20]

Keep in mind that having such a phone will sometimes flag people to look at you harder than they otherwise would.

You basically can rely on getting lost in the sea of normies, or rely on being the oddball with more robust security measures.

 

[Charmingmander]

I don't see any reason to buy this when you can accomplish the same thing by buying a secondhand Google Pixel model and installing GrapheneOS.

Bare in mind that if your banking app etc requires a SafetyNet check (Googles operating system tampering/modification check) and if you fail it (you generally will with custom ROMs like the phone you linked if they don't use Google services) then it won't work. It depends heavily on what you use for apps. Google Maps barely works on degoogled phones, for example, since it can only pull location from GPS for example.

The outbound encrypted messaging is accomplished with a bunch of different messaging services. Signal is the easiest to use. SMS is not encrypted and never will be. Technically iMessage and Google's RCS messaging are both encrypted but trusting either to not be able to read the messages is naive.

When it comes to the whole degoogled phone or using stock Apple vs stock Google etc you really have to analyze what your threat model is. If you just want to minimize ad tracking and privacy features you can accomplish this with a stock Apple device or Googled Android with some settings changes, behavior changes and being more strict with what apps/services you use.


If you wanted to hide yourself better you'd buy a secondhand Pixel with Monero and before connecting it to your wifi you'd install GrapheneOS. You would never log in to any Google service like YouTube with that phone. You would run a VPN on it from the first moment it connects to the net. You would only use a SIM card paid by cash on a prepaid service. And you would never give the number to any person or service that you couldn't audit yourself. But on top of all that, you would at the same time have to completely change your behavior on any other device too.

 

[BurtG]

Keep in mind that having such a phone will sometimes flag people to look at you harder than they otherwise would.

You basically can rely on getting lost in the sea of normies, or rely on being the oddball with more robust security measures.

Yeah.

I’d bet people that have these phones get extra Stasi scrutiny.

And I’m sure they have back doors / a way to spy

 

[Terry Cross]

The only thing that looks sketchy to me is the fact it's 100% pre-order and production won't begin until they sell 6000 units. Seems to me they don't have the capital. Or they're confidence is low enough to not risk the available cash on hand, but are more than willing to risk customer funds.

I did have the same thought cross my mind. For sure I would not be an early adopter JIC.

.

 

[Terry Cross]

Keep in mind that having such a phone will sometimes flag people to look at you harder than they otherwise would.

Not sure they could look at me any harder. LOL.

.

 

[eprom]

As a disclaimer, I work in the cyber-security industry as a penetration tester, developer, security researcher, whatevertherfuckyouwanttocallit. It's always good that have such enterprise, especially because the market is dominated by a few companies. We all know what their policies are, and how seriously they consider their customer's privacy and rights.

Can't tell much about the technical aspects because there is virtually nothing available yet. If they succeed though, that could be a viable commercial alternative. Still, if you take your security and privacy *very* seriously, you have to take a lot of care and measures, that far exceed the simple use of a 'secured' phone and a commercial, probably closed source proprietary software suite.

I don't have all the details, but it looks like already there is a lot of flaws. First and foremost, the phone is probably made of thousands of proprietary components, chipsets, controllers that are made by the exact same companies that sells for Apple, Samsung and the like. These components, nobody really knows how they work internally. Then, the cellular 5G controllers, they all have management parts that the operators can control without you even noticing it. Even if you could turn them off, if you want to do something with your phone, you will have to activate them anyway.

Then the shipped softwares are probably built with toolchains that are developed without the same scrutiny and attentions to detail. A single hole in a library that is used to run an app (e,g. a messenger) could leak your information or void some of the security measures like end-to-end encryption. And what they even use to generate the random numbers to feed the encryption algorithms ? The CPU's (P)RNG that nobody knows how they works?

You see guys where I am getting at... There is way too much complexity and layers to peel off to understand if it's really viable and if it could potentially increase your current security posture. I would bet that if it's really getting traction, the .gov will seriously look at it and find a way. If you want to protect yourself from organized crime, yea that could be interesting, and it *may* make their life a little harder.

My 2 cents..

 

[Charmingmander]

Yeah.

I’d bet people that have these phones get extra Stasi scrutiny.

And I’m sure they have back doors / a way to spy

The prevailing theory for device security is that you should assume there is a hardware backdoor into any device sold in the US that could be exploited by state level actors. Whether or not that is really true is up to you to decide. The only real way is completely minimizing your fingerprint being on the device. If no one knows it's YOU using it, they can't specifically try to target you using the device as their vector.

Again, it's all about your threat model. If you are just joe blow, there is no harm in removing as much spying and tracking from your device as possible. If any of us were serious about it, we wouldn't post on a clear net forum like this one lol.

 

[Charmingmander]

As a disclaimer, I work in the cyber-security industry as a penetration tester, developer, security researcher, whatevertherfuckyouwanttocallit. It's always good that have such enterprise, especially because the market is dominated by a few companies. We all know what their policies are, and how seriously they consider their customer's privacy and rights.

Can't tell much about the technical aspects because there is virtually nothing available yet. If they succeed though, that could be a viable commercial alternative. Still, if you take your security and privacy *very* seriously, you have to take a lot of care and measures, that far exceed the simple use of a 'secured' phone and a commercial, probably closed source proprietary software suite.

I don't have all the details, but it looks like already there is a lot of flaws. First and foremost, the phone is probably made of thousands of proprietary components, chipsets, controllers that are made by the exact same companies that sells for Apple, Samsung and the like. These components, nobody really knows how they works internally. Then, the cellular 5G controllers, they all have management parts that the operators can control without you even noticing it. Even if you could turn them off, if you want to do something with your phone, you will have to activate them anyway.

Then the shipped softwares are probably built with toolchains that are developed without the same scrutiny and attentions to detail. A single hole in a library that is used to run an app (e,g. a messenger) could leak your information or void all the security measures like end-to-end encryption. And what they even use to generate the random numbers to feed the encryption algorithms ? The CPU's (P)RNG that nobody knows how they works?

You see guys where I am getting at... There is way too much complexity and layers to peel off to understand if it's really viable and if it could potentially increase your current security posture. If would bet that if it's really getting traction, the .gov will seriously look at it and find a way. If you want to protect yourself from organized crime, yea that could be interesting, and it *may* make their life a little harder.

My 2 cents..

And this is what I hadn't gotten into yet. The hardware and how it talks to every component on the device, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

To their credit, I think Apple for the most part is better than Google for the day to day user just because of how they handle your personal data (much of your stuff is either held encrypted on iCloud servers or it stays entirely on your device and they don't access it). But then Apple also wants to do shit like scan your photos for CSAM which is sketchy regardless of the method they want to use (check sums).

It's a wash honestly.

 

[eprom]

I also forgot to mention that on the paper, the apple devices are relatively well designed and secure. The issues is when politics comes in the way and punch holes exactly when they see it fit.

BTW I posted the above before reading the previous post, and I just re-join what Charmingmander said

 

[Charmingmander]

I also forgot to mention that on the paper, the apple devices are relatively well designed and secure. The issues is when politics comes in the way and punch holes exactly when they see it fit.

This here. I don't like them from a political or ethics standpoint. Their software stack is good. Their devices are powerful if fragile. But I think overall they are better stock for stock. Especially for the normies lol.

 

[kenny1773]

I have a simple answer, don't have a phone

 

[Charmingmander]

I have a simple answer, don't have a phone

I used to work with a guy who refused to get a cellphone. The higher ups hated him for it because they couldn't call him for overtime lol.

 

[kindabitey]

I have a simple answer, don't have a phone

60% of the time I don't, mostly because I forgot where I left it.

 

[W54/XM-388]

@Terry Cross

A couple little things:
Your cell phone carrier can still track you very well anytime you are using it as a phone.
All your major apps that will run on Android can't be trusted to not be sending some kind of data back somewhere.

This is a pretty nice option here:

Purism– Librem 5

Introducing the – Librem 5 by Purism

puri.sm

I ordered one and it took about 3 years before they finally started producing it, but it was well built, works well and is sturdy.
However you are not going to be able to run all the popular spyware apps on it because in runs a custom encrypted Linux based OS.
They aren't cheap, but part of that is probably because they are not being subsidized by selling all your information.

If you really want to play with it, PM me and I'll work out sending the one I have to you for you to try.

 

[Terry Cross]

@Terry Cross

A couple little things:
Your cell phone carrier can still track you very well anytime you are using it as a phone.
All your major apps that will run on Android can't be trusted to not be sending some kind of data back somewhere.

This is a pretty nice option here:

Purism– Librem 5

Introducing the – Librem 5 by Purism

puri.sm

I ordered one and it took about 3 years before they finally started producing it, but it was well built, works well and is sturdy.
However you are not going to be able to run all the popular spyware apps on it because in runs a custom encrypted Linux based OS.
They aren't cheap, but part of that is probably because they are not being subsidized by selling all your information.

If you really want to play with it, PM me and I'll work out sending the one I have to you for you to try.

Tracking on all the above.
Thanks for sharing the other info and offer. I really appreciate it.

.

 

[Short-bus]

I don't see any reason to buy this when you can accomplish the same thing by buying a secondhand Google Pixel model and installing GrapheneOS.

Bare in mind that if your banking app etc requires a SafetyNet check (Googles operating system tampering/modification check) and if you fail it (you generally will with custom ROMs like the phone you linked if they don't use Google services) then it won't work. It depends heavily on what you use for apps. Google Maps barely works on degoogled phones, for example, since it can only pull location from GPS for example.

The outbound encrypted messaging is accomplished with a bunch of different messaging services. Signal is the easiest to use. SMS is not encrypted and never will be. Technically iMessage and Google's RCS messaging are both encrypted but trusting either to not be able to read the messages is naive.

When it comes to the whole degoogled phone or using stock Apple vs stock Google etc you really have to analyze what your threat model is. If you just want to minimize ad tracking and privacy features you can accomplish this with a stock Apple device or Googled Android with some settings changes, behavior changes and being more strict with what apps/services you use.


If you wanted to hide yourself better you'd buy a secondhand Pixel with Monero and before connecting it to your wifi you'd install GrapheneOS. You would never log in to any Google service like YouTube with that phone. You would run a VPN on it from the first moment it connects to the net. You would only use a SIM card paid by cash on a prepaid service. And you would never give the number to any person or service that you couldn't audit yourself. But on top of all that, you would at the same time have to completely change your behavior on any other device too.

Signal has been infiltrated by the fedbois, and there's a backdoor for them to view messages, it's not truly secure anymore. I can't recall if it was revealed during the Rittenhouse trial, or one of the Jan 6 trials, but signal is most definately not secure from fedggots seeing your messages.

Branden

 

[HeavyAssault]

1) Use any cell phone, they know.
2) Don't want them to know, don't use a cell phone.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

I have a simple answer, don't have a phone

That opens the door to the question "Why do you have a cell phone" ?

I functioned well, covered a lot of ground, made a lot of money during the 60's, 70' and 80's without a cell phone. Much of that time was in construction and the oil patch. My first was a truck mounted monster, behind the seat, rotary dial. Had to go through a South Louisiana, off shore operator. Cost was about $400 for the unit and $5 / minute to talk. Those were short conversations, unlike today. In those days it was "just business". If I got myself in a jam, I had to get myself out of that jam. Call it self reliant, independent or having a Plan B at all times.

Today's society is just the polar opposite. It's a big psych op. People now depend on that cell phone. There are few independent thinkers. Every day there is video of a person dying while trying to capture some event that they should be running away from. People run off the road into a river and grab their cell phone to make a call rather than GTF out of a sinking car. Time and time again. When the SHTF the cell off switch will be the first to be pulled, long before the grid is shut down. Look at current world events.

Of those you know, how many can go for 7 days without a cell phone......

Why do you have a cell phone ?

 

[pmclaine]

I’d consider it comes loaded with hidden child porn accessible to the FBI guys that installed it.

Unless you are making it in your own garage big Fed is not going to let it happen and be built to keep them out.

 

[Tokay444]

A buddy of mine got burned on a similar pitch. Paid and never produced.

 

[n2ishun]

A while back there was a *ultra secure* phone targeted to corporate heads, drug dealers, thugs....you know, people that look for an ultra secure way of communications.

Only problem..
It was a complete sting operation.
Every person that had one of those phones was pretty much busted with recordings of every text, every call, every email, etc.

Just ask yourself this.
Does it use standard cellphone towers ?
There ya go.
Every cell tower is connected to the internet.
And that internet....

Goes......thru.......here

Utah Data Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BigPrince]

Not worth your time or money. This isn't the first rodeo in this space. See SilentCircle Blackphone for example. Think I have that brick around here somewhere from when we tried them during international trips to study some precursor attacks in eastern europe years ago.

 

[kenny1773]

Why do you have a cell phone ?

no real reason, just so that people can reach me if they need me (wife, kids, employer) as you said, we all lived for decades without cell phones and we were fine.

One day I will toss it in the air and shoot it like a clay pigeon...

When I am retired, others can call my land line and leave a message on a cassette tape based recording device and maybe I will get back to them (if I feel like it). I am done with instant access (and yes I still have a cassette answering machine sitting in a box somewhere)

 

[Short-bus]

I don't remember what podcast I heard it on, maybe Shawn Ryan, doesn't matter, but what was said was that the burner phones, prepaid phones purchasable in walmart, target, ect, are the best means of having a phone, and conducting questionable business, and it being very difficult to trace to you. The trick is, you pay cash, disguise your appearance when purchasing, and as soon as the minutes run out, you toss the phone, and start with a new one.

Branden

EDit to add: In this day and age, you can completely cover your face, and wear rubber gloves, and not a single person will bat an eye at that anymore after covid.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I don't remember what podcast I heard it on, maybe Shawn Ryan, doesn't matter, but what was said was that the burner phones, prepaid phones purchasable in walmart, target, ect, are the best means of having a phone, and conducting questionable business, and it being very difficult to trace to you. The trick is, you pay cash, disguise your appearance when purchasing, and as soon as the minutes run out, you toss the phone, and start with a new one.

Branden

EDit to add: In this day and age, you can completely cover your face, and wear rubber gloves, and not a single person will bat an eye at that anymore after covid.

Big data and voice recognition and machine learning have made that "burner phones" thing a lot less helpful than folks once thought it was.
Are you using the phones in around the same place?
Does your voice sound the same?
Are you calling similar numbers?
Do you buy the phones at the same stores?
Are you carrying the phones around the same places?

Also "somebody" is probably keeping pretty much all the important tracking bits of data from everything near forever, so folks might be surprised.

 

[kenny1773]

Did you drive 500 miles away to another state to buy the burner phone and put it in a faraday cage for the drive home?

Do you have the burner phone turned on at your house or regular place of residence?

Some of you need to stop wasting so much brain power on this, you are going to hurt yourself

its simple, as I said above

Don't have a fucking phone

 

[Franko]

Decide who you are afraid of. If you are afraid of a three letter agency don't own anything electronic and live in a shed in the woods like Ted Kaczynski. If you are worried about garden variety threats (e.g., criminals) then just buy an iPhone; nothing else is as secure. If you are just worried about privacy while using your smartphone use fewer features or even go all the way and use a dumbphone.

 

[Clearlight]

I suggest having a chat with some of your clients, particularly addressing where and what the risk is from. Someone will ‘know a guy’. As suggested in above posts, anything connecting to a tower is generally open to the top end of the signals food chain.

EDIT: One of your good guys may be able to suggest a satellite only, call and text only encrypted service.

 

[eprom]

You can go a long way down that rabbit hole... What is funny is a lot of ISIS piece of shit got killed with their hand on a prepaid phone. It will become harder and harder to resist having a smartphone. I am confident they will make sure you won't be able to live without one.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

You can go a long way down that rabbit hole... What is funny is a lot of ISIS piece of shit got killed with their hand on a prepaid phone. It will become harder and harder to resist having a smartphone. I am confident they will make sure you won't be able to live without one.

Closer by the day:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,