F T/R Competition Upgrading my rig for F-class

[SomeOtherGuy]

I've been shooting F-Class at 600 yards for the last 6 1/2 years whenever I have time, which is typically only 2-3 times a year. So far I have only used .308 rifles, including my FN SPRA1, a Howa Varmint 20, and a Savage 10 with 26" barrel and B&C stock. Lately I seem to be the only person shooting a .308 and I'm looking to upgrade my caliber and rifle. So:

1) Is there any reason 6.5 Creedmoor with a 24" barrel would not be a good choice?

2) I've been happy with aluminum bedded fiberglass stocks (B&C, McMillan or HS Precision) but chassis systems are really common now. Any reason I wouldn't want to use something like the KRG Bravo or MDT Oryx chassis? Does the chassis have any benefits for practical accuracy?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mxridr]

I shoot my 6.5 creedmoor in f class. I prefer a bedded A5 but that is just me. 6.5 creedmoor is a great all around caliber. Good for prs too.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

No, and no.

OTOH, I have been a .260 shooter for going on two decades, and see no reason to switch now, and; aside from the cool factor, there is no reason to assume that a properly bedded traditional stock has suddenly ceased to function in a functional and accurate manner.

A lot of what folks do regarding rifles and competition is driven by marketing and cool factor. While I make no effort to stand in the way of modern commerce; I have long been forced to be more sensible and less compulsive in my own commerce, in no small way because of the liltingly hypnotic call of SWMBO.

If it works, use it, either way.

Greg

 

[Rondogg]

I've been shooting F-Class at 600 yards for the last 6 1/2 years whenever I have time, which is typically only 2-3 times a year. So far I have only used .308 rifles, including my FN SPRA1, a Howa Varmint 20, and a Savage 10 with 26" barrel and B&C stock. Lately I seem to be the only person shooting a .308 and I'm looking to upgrade my caliber and rifle. So:

1) Is there any reason 6.5 Creedmoor with a 24" barrel would not be a good choice?

2) I've been happy with aluminum bedded fiberglass stocks (B&C, McMillan or HS Precision) but chassis systems are really common now. Any reason I wouldn't want to use something like the KRG Bravo or MDT Oryx chassis? Does the chassis have any benefits for practical accuracy?

Thanks in advance.

If your happy with the 308 round, and you shoot 600yds, I see no reason to go 6.5. The 308 barrel will outlast the 6.5 by year's. Shoot what you are comfortable with.

 

[goosed]

I've been shooting F-Class at 600 yards for the last 6 1/2 years whenever I have time, which is typically only 2-3 times a year. So far I have only used .308 rifles, including my FN SPRA1, a Howa Varmint 20, and a Savage 10 with 26" barrel and B&C stock. Lately I seem to be the only person shooting a .308 and I'm looking to upgrade my caliber and rifle. So:

1) Is there any reason 6.5 Creedmoor with a 24" barrel would not be a good choice?

2) I've been happy with aluminum bedded fiberglass stocks (B&C, McMillan or HS Precision) but chassis systems are really common now. Any reason I wouldn't want to use something like the KRG Bravo or MDT Oryx chassis? Does the chassis have any benefits for practical accuracy?

Thanks in advance.

You're the only one using 308? That can't possibly be true...

Almost everyone shooting F-TR is using a 308... Maybe you mean you're the only one shooting F-open with a 308?

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

You're the only one using 308? That can't possibly be true...

Almost everyone shooting F-TR is using a 308... Maybe you mean you're the only one shooting F-open with a 308?

Through 2014 I was shooting near metro Detroit and a few others were doing F-TR and using .308, but the majority were doing F-open. I moved after 2014 and am now in a fairly rural area with only one F-class option within a 4+ hour drive. They follow NRA rules but don't strongly differentiate F-TR vs. open. There a few serious and skilled guys shooting either 6.5-284 or .300 Win Mag in custom rifles with massive 28-30" barrels and scoring well. The rest are less serious (and with two exceptions less skilled) but still shooting various calibers other than .308 or .223. I don't know any other regular there shooting a TR-qualifying caliber.

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

If your happy with the 308 round, and you shoot 600yds, I see no reason to go 6.5. The 308 barrel will outlast the 6.5 by year's. Shoot what you are comfortable with.

Two facts I should have mentioned: I only use commercial ammo (lack time/dedication to reload) and I'm not shooting enough that barrel life is a huge issue. I'm also looking only at actions that have prefit barrel options, so future replacement should by DIY and just the $400-500 cost of the barrel.

With that said, I don't think I'm happy with .308 any more. Recoil isn't that high but it gets tedious after 60+ shots. I've been using FGMM, 168 in my 1/12 rifle and 175 in my 1/10. I won't claim to be super skilled but variable wind is my biggest source of error right now at 600 yards known distance. I'm scoring as well with my .308 as many of the local competitors who are shooting flatter/higher BC rounds, which makes me think that the .308 ballistics are holding me back... and because F-TR is not treated like a separate class here, I don't get to win my class, I just finish midpack among the overall group.

After looking around I identified the flattest, least wind-drifting .308 factory ammo as Hornady Superformance Match ELD, with a 168gr .523 BC at 2840fps. Per two ballistic calculators it does pretty well at 600, but various 6.5 CM loads do equally well with slightly lower MV but higher BC, and a few of them have noticeably less wind drift, the Hornady 147 ELD in particular. I was about to order a few cases of the Hornady Superformance Match ELD 168 and stay with 308, but I don't have any yet, and I'm looking at buying a new rifle anyway. With that ammo at 1.40/rd and various match grade 6.5 CM at 1.20-1.30/rd, I'm questioning the logic of sticking with a more drifting round that has more recoil and costs more.

I've been eyeing 6.5 CM for a few years but I wanted to make sure it was going to see widespread use and not become another orphaned proprietary cartridge. As far as I can tell 6.5 CM is pretty mainstream as of 2019 with all the major US ammo companies making ammo for it and most or all of the bolt-action rifle makers offering multiple models in it.

I really don't need this change, but I kinda want to do it, and am simply looking for any issues or anything I might have missed. Remember that I'm not reloading so some other good options like .260 Rem, 6.5x47 Lapua and 7mm-08 aren't as practical as 6.5 CM, 6 CM, and .308. And I'm not looking as seriously at 6 CM because of the barrel life issue and more limited ammo options. Understanding that barrel life varies, what I've read here and elsewhere suggests my .308s might have an accurate life of 4000-5000rds, a 6.5 CM might be around 3000-3500, and a 6.0 CM might be closer to 1800.

Also, while I have no options beyond 600 yards anywhere local, in 1-2 years I'm hoping to take a 1000 yard course at some place like the Michigan Training Center or NRA Whittington Center. In .308 the Superformance ELD would probably do OK at 1000, but there are several 6.5 CM options that look like they would do better.

The whole point of this is to see if I'm making a mistake before I spend the money, so tell me if I am.

 

[Macca]

My club is primarily a service rifle club,but we do hold a few ftr shoots during the year.
We’re pretty casual,but we do grade scores according to class.
Take yesterday for example,
We had a 600 hundred shoot with a super x (3” x ring in the x ring which counted as a double x),the 4 highest scores went from 200.21 down to 199.14.
The calibre’s for the top 4 were in descending order:260 Rem,6.5x47,6.5 CM & 6BR.
F Standard highest score was 189.2.
I was in the same boat as you shooting .308 & got sick of the middling scores.I could’ve kept up with the f standard shooters but wanted to nail that x ring as often as I could.
LOL,maybe I shouldn’t have bothered as I still come 4th in f open.
Try the new ammo,if it doesn’t live up to expectations,buy a 6.5 CM.

 

[goosed]

Ok, that makes sense if your club doesn't separate TR and open.

Hornady 168 isn't bad, but I think you might be able to find even less wind drift. Federal 185 juggernauts work well in most rifles and take your g1 BC up to .552(going off memory, double check?).

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole Berger 200.20x ammo ratchets BC way up into the .64's, but it also cost more than most. Before you buy cases of it be aware most guys in my area seem to have trouble getting these to group at distance without barrels cut to "2013 F-TR" reamer type specs.

None of the above addresses the "tedious" recoil though. If you really don't care about barrel life I would go a step further and look into the 6mm crredmoor. It can hang with or beat the 6.5mm's and the recoil will feel like mouse farts compared to the 308's. Factory target ammo isn't quite as prevalent as 6.5, but there are still lots of good options with Federal using the 105 Berger Hybrid and 107 Seirra matchking. Hornady also has their 108 eld's. No experience with Hornady black box or eld-x. HSM, Seirra and Berger all make 6mm target ammo as well, but I'm not sold that they're worth the additional cost unless your rifle doesn't like Federal or Hornady.

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

F Standard highest score was 189.2.
I was in the same boat as you shooting .308 & got sick of the middling scores.I could’ve kept up with the f standard shooters but wanted to nail that x ring as often as I could.
LOL,maybe I shouldn’t have bothered as I still come 4th in f open.
Try the new ammo,if it doesn’t live up to expectations,buy a 6.5 CM.

Thanks. And yeah, I won't suddenly be #1 given the regular competition, but I'd rather not be so low. I score 187 fairly often with my 308's but haven't broken that for a full 20-round set, although I did manage 96 over a 10-round portion one time. But our range is fairly windy and most others are shooting much higher BC ammo. All it really does for me is help me determine my actual skill, but that's probably enough justification for me.

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

Hornady 168 isn't bad, but I think you might be able to find even less wind drift. Federal 185 juggernauts work well in most rifles and take your g1 BC up to .552(going off memory, double check?).

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole Berger 200.20x ammo ratchets BC way up into the .64's, but it also cost more than most. Before you buy cases of it be aware most guys in my area seem to have trouble getting these to group at distance without barrels cut to "2013 F-TR" reamer type specs.

The FGMM 185gr would give me about the same wind drift as ELD Superformance - in fact very slightly more, looking at about 0.3 MOA more drift at 600 yards assuming a 10mph, right-angle crosswind and my local conditions. The substantially lower muzzle velocity offsets the higher BC. I've also modeled the 208gr AMAX with similar results. Haven't looked into the 200gr Berger but once things require special chamber dimensions it's probably beyond what I want to spend time and money on, especially when so many 6.5 ammo options equal or beat these without fancy requirements. I'm also not sure that those 200-208gr long bullets will stabilize in a 1/10 twist barrel at my conditions (1100ft elevation, relatively low temperatures) and realistic muzzle velocities. It might be different, maybe, if I was going to use a 30" barrel and assume warm conditions... our May match (first of the season) includes snow about one in four years.

Appreciate all the replies and I think I've sold myself on 6.5 CM. Will take another look at 6.0 CM. Any other comments on chassis vs. fiberglass stocks, or is it purely what one likes? Even in F-open I'll probably use a bipod rather than a rest.

 

[goosed]

The FGMM 185gr would give me about the same wind drift as ELD Superformance - in fact very slightly more, looking at about 0.3 MOA more drift at 600 yards assuming a 10mph, right-angle crosswind and my local conditions. The substantially lower muzzle velocity offsets the higher BC. I've also modeled the 208gr AMAX with similar results. Haven't looked into the 200gr Berger but once things require special chamber dimensions it's probably beyond what I want to spend time and money on, especially when so many 6.5 ammo options equal or beat these without fancy requirements. I'm also not sure that those 200-208gr long bullets will stabilize in a 1/10 twist barrel at my conditions (1100ft elevation, relatively low temperatures) and realistic muzzle velocities. It might be different, maybe, if I was going to use a 30" barrel and assume warm conditions... our May match (first of the season) includes snow about one in four years.

Appreciate all the replies and I think I've sold myself on 6.5 CM. Will take another look at 6.0 CM. Any other comments on chassis vs. fiberglass stocks, or is it purely what one likes? Even in F-open I'll probably use a bipod rather than a rest.

Since you're running a bi-pod, chassis vs stock is purely preference.

Just like whether you like to do fine elevation adjustment up front with your bi-pod(my preference) or in the rear with the toe and rabbit.

If you switch to a front rest it's a different story. Front rest bag to stock fit is crucial. There are a few chassis systems that can be adapted, but the slick fore end stocks simply work better imo.

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

Minor update: I shot a recent match using the same FN SPR .308, but with a new bipod (Sinclair Tactical), a better rear bag, and using Hornady 168gr ELD-Match Superformance for the first string. I liked the bipod and bag. The ELD-Match shot horribly, just wildly all over the target, with a 20-shot score of 151. That is by far my worst score ever in F-class. Three years ago our May match was in an active snowstorm with visibility often impaired and gusty 20mph winds, and despite all that I shot strings of 175 and 177.

I went back to my standard FGMM 168gr Sierra for the second string and got a 186, which I don't like but is slightly above my average score. Weather and shooting conditions were unchanged so I think it's fair to say the ELD-Match ammo was the issue for first string. I'm going to try that same ammo in a completely different rifle (Howa 1500) to see if it might be just what the rifle likes/dislikes, or if the batch of ammo is bad.

I ordered some of the Federal GM Berger 185gr ammo at the same time, so I will try that at some point. The nearest club with F-class only has three matches a year and I have no other convenient way to shoot 600 yards, so it may be a while before I get to try it beyond 200 yards.

 

[Dstoenner]

We had a 600 hundred shoot with a super x (3” x ring in the x ring which counted as a double x)

That doesn’t make sense. An F-Class taget at 600 has a 6 inch 10 ring with a 3 inch X ring. Then was the super X 1.5 inches?

David

 

[Macca]

We’re primarily a service rifle club & not f class.
We’re probably just catching up with the rest of the world.
I’ll take some measurements next time i’m In the target shed.

 

[memilanuk]

It'd better say 'MR-1F' in the corner of the repair centers, or your F-class shooters are getting the short end of the stick i.e. scores can't be submitted, etc.

 

[rhsc]

Minor update: I shot a recent match using the same FN SPR .308, but with a new bipod (Sinclair Tactical), a better rear bag, and using Hornady 168gr ELD-Match Superformance for the first string. I liked the bipod and bag. The ELD-Match shot horribly, just wildly all over the target, with a 20-shot score of 151. That is by far my worst score ever in F-class. Three years ago our May match was in an active snowstorm with visibility often impaired and gusty 20mph winds, and despite all that I shot strings of 175 and 177.

I went back to my standard FGMM 168gr Sierra for the second string and got a 186, which I don't like but is slightly above my average score. Weather and shooting conditions were unchanged so I think it's fair to say the ELD-Match ammo was the issue for first string. I'm going to try that same ammo in a completely different rifle (Howa 1500) to see if it might be just what the rifle likes/dislikes, or if the batch of ammo is bad.

I had much the same experience with 178gr Superformance “Match” ammo. Shot four 5-shot groups (patterns really) that were between 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 inches at 100 yards. Two different lot numbers performed equally bad. Just to be sure nothing was off with my rifle or scope, I loaded up some 175gr FGMM and put 5 rounds into a group measuring .46”. Set up my chronograph and the Superformance showed an ES of 160 fps for a string of 10 rounds.

I've read reports where some shooters have found that Superformance gets erratic when the ambient temp climbs much above 80 degrees, but my range session occurred between 68 and 70 degrees and I let the barrel cool off between groups. Hands down, it's the worst performing .308 ammo I've ever tried.

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

Thanks, that is helpful info. I will know more when I try the same ammo in another known-good rifle, ASAP.

I realize "match ammo" doesn't have a defined and verifiable meaning, but I think any knowledgeable person would agree that 2.5 MOA in a rifle that can do .5 MOA (yours), or 3.5 MOA in a rifle that can do sub-MOA (my SPR), is not "match grade." It is slowly dawning on me that even FGMM might be holding me back a bit, but it's obviously far ahead of this Hornady. I've tried Norma, Nosler and Prvi 168gr "Match" in various rifles, with the first two seeming about as good as FGMM and Prvi, not surprisingly, somewhat behind. But even the Prvi will shoot 1" 100 yard groups in two of my rifles that like it. It does require more elevation at 600 yards though, indicating either lower BC or lower MV, or both.

 

[rhsc]

That particular .308 (an 18" Ruger Scout rifle oddly enough) really likes 168 and 175 FGMM. Most other ammo groups @ 1-1/2" on average, which is OK for what is basically a hunting carbine. I'm not the greatest shooter by any means, but the day I tested the Superformance I knew I was "on". I was rested, relaxed, my technique felt good and my eyes weren't giving me problems as often happens. External conditions were great too. It was such a let-down that the Hornady ammo performed so poorly.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

If you're going to handload 308, try a clone of the 168gr FGMM.

I use:

Starline 308 brass, large primer pocket.
CCI BR-2/CCI-200 primer.
Sierra 168SMK 2.810" OAL.
43.5gr IMR-4064.

This is the load specified by Zediker for the M-14/M1a, except, that he uses either LC or IMI brass, with his preference being the IMI. This is significant because the MilSpec brass has a noticeably smaller capacity. So start low, watch for the best node, pay attention to fired case pressure indications, and work up. The 43.5gr charge corresponds to a LOT of internet "confirmations" from pull-down FGMM.

In fact, almost all of the components are my own choice, not Zediker's; but times have changed somewhat and I developed preferences.

Go figure...

I use this load in my 20" PA-10 and 24" Savage 11VT...

I have shot the 260 since 2001 and have a firm commitment. My 260 started as a factory 24" 10FP .260, then over time evolved into a custom, using a factory pillar bedded McM A3 Tactical, SSS Trigger, and 28" L-W Savage Varmint Contour SAAMI .260 SS barrel.

I stuck with the 260 for a practical reason; my brass is easy to find even in a drought, since I can also use .243 and 7-08 and simply resize the neck. She does an easy (I.e., not max load) 2850fps with the 140gr-range bullets.

Last time I shot in the SWN was 2016, and shot F-T/R MR600 using a box-stock 24" Savage 11VT .223 with HDY 75gr HPBT handloads. It got there, and held the 8 and better.

Greg