US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

[ranger1183]

Laser guided smart munition rifle anyone?

US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

25mm dual warhead smart ammunition. Whats not to like?

 

[Joeyhotfizzle]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

Pretty cool man... I think I've seen that space gun looking one on Future Weapons.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

They're really trying to salvage what they can from OICW.

 

[BillCominos]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

I like! But, it's kind of a stretch to call it "smart" when it employs an area burst.... Still provides our guys with a pretty kick ass new tool!!

 

[Chui]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

14 lbs. though...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

OICW's 20mm distance fused explosive round was/is worth the whole budget all by itself. Crafting a delivery system that isn't a boat anchor is the remaining challenge.

Reminds me of <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Aliens</span></span>; dynamite infantry technology; and that combination air/ground delivery vehicle didn't suck, either...

Greg

 

[sinister]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">25mm dual warhead smart ammunition. Whats not to like?</div></div>

$25 a round -- how much ammo will Joe get to shoot per year?

Knucklehead in a crowd or alleyway in a souk -- you pull the trigger and kill how many noncombatants?

What kind of ranges will you be able to fire and maneuver on? You aren't going to be able to rush and dash on anything contaminated with sensitized, fused explosive duds.

 

[todg]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

Old news. The XM-25 was split off from the XM-29 for independent development some time ago. The caliber has been upped to 25mm because 20mm was deemed to have too few fragments.

As far as the new 50 cal, that's the XM-307/312 IIRC, which was testing a couple of years ago.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

I will believe it when it hits the battlefield.

It's all vaporware until it gets into Private Snuffy's hands.

 

[todg]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What kind of ranges will you be able to fire and maneuver on? You aren't going to be able to rush and dash on anything contaminated with sensitized, fused explosive duds. </div></div>

The latest plan is to use a flechette round for short range fire and maneuver. The weapon becomes a 25mm, 300 meter + shotgun. Bursting munitions for use against intermediate targets, or targets behind cover.

It's embryonic technology, but the conventional rifle has reached apex. The ACR program demonstrated that little or nothing can be done to improve the basic rifle's hit probability, and about the only thing that would was to employ explosive projectiles.

The XM-29 was split into the XM-8 and XM-25 for continued development, with the hope that eventually the two could be reunited into a package of manageable weight.

The concept is hardly new, and is a direct descendent of SPIW and ACR. We are poised at a transition similar to when the gun replaced the bow. Initially, the bow was superior (at least up until the Napoleonic wars), but the gun required far less training.

The XM-25 is the first step in a completely new direction. It's going to take a lot of time and money to supplant the rifle. When it does, dumb slug throwers will probably be considered as primitive as we consider the bow and arrow.

YMMV

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

We used 12ga flechette rounds and 105mm Beehive flechette rounds in 'Nam. Our LVTH6 vehicle mounted a 105 howitzer in a turret, with an autoloader for the second shot. That's one mighty big full auto shotgun for two rounds, boys and girls. A half dozen of those, plus two Engineer LVTE1 line charge vehicles on the line, one volley, and NVA mass attacks (Qua Viet, 1967) just melted away back into the bush.

Greg

 

[WillAdams]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

The problem with flechette rounds in less than 90mm size cannister is oft times the target didn't even know it was hit UNLESS you nailed the CNS. Those little nails zip right through with little or no shock value. Maybe if they used lead nails that would transfer some energy into target ?

WTF do I know ? I'll defer to people in the know like Sinister. Maybe DARPA could develop an "Anti-stupid" pill and we could test it on demoncraps ?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

The flechettes were not a show stopper, although getting caught up close could be a bit like tripping into a wood chipper, them and the three guys in back of them.

Their value(?) was in tagging the BG's with something that slowly developed from discomfort, to incapacitation, to DOA. It was the gift that kept on giving.

Didn't add much to the body count, not right there, but give 'em a day or two, and the BG's would expire right in the arms of their, whatever... Really screwed with their morale.

BTW, the darts in the 12ga were smaller in length and diameter than the ones in the beehive.

Greg

 

[Phil1]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunTech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Old news. The XM-25 was split off from the XM-29 for independent development some time ago. The caliber has been upped to 25mm because 20mm was deemed to have too few fragments.

As far as the new 50 cal, that's the XM-307/312 IIRC, which was testing a couple of years ago. </div></div>

+1 US Army keeps trying to kill any expensive fixes to the M-16..M-4 rifle upgrade program but political pressures keep coming back to some kind of upgrade to a 45 year old weapon(m-16 adopted 1964).

This story details recent US Army and Marine evaulations for upgrades and replacements including 20-25mm projectiles: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

And this outlines what is the best option(discussed above) for a low cost upgrade IMO: http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm

 

[Former0302]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapons

Good point about cost of training...but my bet is that practice rounds would be considerably cheaper (sorta like the 40MM practice grenades for the M203).

Knuckleheads in crowds...luckily that weapon system also has a 5.56mm rifle. That or have a Designated Marksman take them out. You make a great point though about unintended collateral damage in the fog of war (oh shit....didn't see those kids around the corner). How is that different than the risk of collateral damage when tossing baseball grenades or lobbing mortars onto BGs though?

Fire and Manuever courses...my bet is that they'd create a practice round that spits deadly orange dust or something. But valid point, could complicate training ranges and safety procedures.

 

[Red_SC]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The flechettes were not a show stopper, although getting caught up close could be a bit like tripping into a wood chipper, them and the three guys in back of them.
</div></div>

How much penetration did you get from them? At a class a couple of years ago, we shot different materials with many different firearms, including one guy who had some fletchette rounds for his 12 gauge. They failed to penetrate a single layer of drywall at fairly close or moderate distances. Were the ones used overseas more effective?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: US Army Unveils Two Lighter, More Lethal Weapo

At about 7yd, they usually went clean through, but at that range, it was really more of a pulping effect than individual penetrations. Our ammo was full length brass.

Further out, recovered bodies showed tiny pinpricks, and no exits.

The three guys bit refers to folks in front of a howie.

Greg