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Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
I'll second that.
I'll second that.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
I did some hide searches as well as regular good searches and couldn't find it either.
I did some hide searches as well as regular good searches and couldn't find it either.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
Not yet, but thanks for the offer. I bought a set during the GB a few months ago, but haven't needed to use them until now, or next week anyway. I'm familiar with normal dies, but was just looking for a supplement to the instructions that came with them. I recall seeing something here about the same time I got them that was pretty well written / thought-out. Damned if I can find it tho.
I'll likely be back if I hit something that doesn't make sense.
-Slice
Not yet, but thanks for the offer. I bought a set during the GB a few months ago, but haven't needed to use them until now, or next week anyway. I'm familiar with normal dies, but was just looking for a supplement to the instructions that came with them. I recall seeing something here about the same time I got them that was pretty well written / thought-out. Damned if I can find it tho.
I'll likely be back if I hit something that doesn't make sense.
-Slice
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
I don't know what kind of dies you got, either neck only of full length. But personally I prefer the F/L dies. I usually measure the loaded round and get the TiN bushings for -.001", -.002", and -.003" That way if I want to change neck tension or use a different name brand of brass I usually have the bushings on hand to do what I want.
Like stated above, let someone here know what problem you have when you hit one. You'll probably get a dozen answers on how to fix it. If you want to email me directly I'll do my best to help. I'm not on here as much as I once was.
I don't know what kind of dies you got, either neck only of full length. But personally I prefer the F/L dies. I usually measure the loaded round and get the TiN bushings for -.001", -.002", and -.003" That way if I want to change neck tension or use a different name brand of brass I usually have the bushings on hand to do what I want.
Like stated above, let someone here know what problem you have when you hit one. You'll probably get a dozen answers on how to fix it. If you want to email me directly I'll do my best to help. I'm not on here as much as I once was.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
+1 on the F/L Type S with a few TIN bushing.
I would add a set of Competition Shell Holder to simplify the bump of the shoulder.
+1 on the F/L Type S with a few TIN bushing.
I would add a set of Competition Shell Holder to simplify the bump of the shoulder.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
Thanks Vic. I got a set of 308 and 223 F/L dies w/ the Ti bushings -.002 and -.003 from a loaded round I had. I have a pile of unfired LC Match brass I'm about to start working on. I also got the competition shell holder set for both.
Hopefully its a non-issue, but you know how well written some of the directions for these things can be.
Thanks all.
-Slice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know what kind of dies you got, either neck only of full length. But personally I prefer the F/L dies. I usually measure the loaded round and get the TiN bushings for -.001", -.002", and -.003" That way if I want to change neck tension or use a different name brand of brass I usually have the bushings on hand to do what I want.
Like stated above, let someone here know what problem you have when you hit one. You'll probably get a dozen answers on how to fix it. If you want to email me directly I'll do my best to help. I'm not on here as much as I once was.</div></div>
Thanks Vic. I got a set of 308 and 223 F/L dies w/ the Ti bushings -.002 and -.003 from a loaded round I had. I have a pile of unfired LC Match brass I'm about to start working on. I also got the competition shell holder set for both.
Hopefully its a non-issue, but you know how well written some of the directions for these things can be.
Thanks all.
-Slice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know what kind of dies you got, either neck only of full length. But personally I prefer the F/L dies. I usually measure the loaded round and get the TiN bushings for -.001", -.002", and -.003" That way if I want to change neck tension or use a different name brand of brass I usually have the bushings on hand to do what I want.
Like stated above, let someone here know what problem you have when you hit one. You'll probably get a dozen answers on how to fix it. If you want to email me directly I'll do my best to help. I'm not on here as much as I once was.</div></div>
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like stated above, let someone here know what problem you have when you hit one. You'll probably get a dozen answers on how to fix it. If you want to email me directly I'll do my best to help. I'm not on here as much as I once was. </div></div>
If you have a problem let me know. My regular email is in my profile.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like stated above, let someone here know what problem you have when you hit one. You'll probably get a dozen answers on how to fix it. If you want to email me directly I'll do my best to help. I'm not on here as much as I once was. </div></div>
If you have a problem let me know. My regular email is in my profile.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
After screwing around with this die for a little while, I do have a question. I didn't have the expander ball in, just the decapping pin. It didn't seem to make a lot of sense to have it in there, doesn't it negate what the bushing just did for me, passing through the case mouth again after the bushing has "smushed" it?
I have a couple of case mouths that don't appear perfectly round. Can I count on the bushing to fix this for me? or, should I put the expander back on, size, then take it out and size again?
Or, should I just leave the ball on? Maybe I'm not understanding something correctly?
Thanks guys,
-Slice
After screwing around with this die for a little while, I do have a question. I didn't have the expander ball in, just the decapping pin. It didn't seem to make a lot of sense to have it in there, doesn't it negate what the bushing just did for me, passing through the case mouth again after the bushing has "smushed" it?
I have a couple of case mouths that don't appear perfectly round. Can I count on the bushing to fix this for me? or, should I put the expander back on, size, then take it out and size again?
Or, should I just leave the ball on? Maybe I'm not understanding something correctly?
Thanks guys,
-Slice
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HomeSlice</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a couple of case mouths that don't appear perfectly round. Can I count on the bushing to fix this for me? or, should I put the expander back on, size, then take it out and size again?</div></div>The function of the expander ball is to bring the inside diameter of the case neck to the correct diameter. This is a must for gas gun brass with dented necks.
With the expander ball in a FL die sizes the neck two different ways two different times: When the outside diameter of the neck gets swaged the expander ball rounds out from the inside prior to and after neck sizing by the bushing.
If you don't use an expander ball, but your neck wall thickness is all over the map, then the inside of the neck won't be round but the outside will appear to be round. The problem is that with the expander ball in the opposite happens. And it gets worse the thicker the walls of your brass.
Check the runout on your cases both ways and see which one gives better results.
If the expander ball is grabbing the cases you might want to polish it up a bit. Other then that, if you use the expander ball make sure it is centered in the die.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HomeSlice</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a couple of case mouths that don't appear perfectly round. Can I count on the bushing to fix this for me? or, should I put the expander back on, size, then take it out and size again?</div></div>The function of the expander ball is to bring the inside diameter of the case neck to the correct diameter. This is a must for gas gun brass with dented necks.
With the expander ball in a FL die sizes the neck two different ways two different times: When the outside diameter of the neck gets swaged the expander ball rounds out from the inside prior to and after neck sizing by the bushing.
If you don't use an expander ball, but your neck wall thickness is all over the map, then the inside of the neck won't be round but the outside will appear to be round. The problem is that with the expander ball in the opposite happens. And it gets worse the thicker the walls of your brass.
Check the runout on your cases both ways and see which one gives better results.
If the expander ball is grabbing the cases you might want to polish it up a bit. Other then that, if you use the expander ball make sure it is centered in the die.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJ Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run the expander!!! </div></div>I don't disagree, but without us knowing anything about his rifle or his brass it would be helpful to know your thoughts on why.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJ Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run the expander!!! </div></div>I don't disagree, but without us knowing anything about his rifle or his brass it would be helpful to know your thoughts on why.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
If you have chosen the bushing correctly, you need no expander ball. If you need the expander ball, a) you have not chosen the bushing correctly, b) you loose the concentricity that bushing dies provide.
The key is finding the right bushing.
If you have chosen the bushing correctly, you need no expander ball. If you need the expander ball, a) you have not chosen the bushing correctly, b) you loose the concentricity that bushing dies provide.
The key is finding the right bushing.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HomeSlice</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A few months ago somebody did a pretty good write-up on using these dies. Could someone repost that link? I can't seem to find it anywhere w/ search...
Thanks,
-Slice
</div></div>
First of all good choice... if your using Lapua brass then I would recommend not using the ball
I take Butch's and clean out the oil on the threads and inside as well
take your LOADED round and measure ....in fact measure a bunch and check your numbers then subtract .002 and that is your bushing size you need to use
the beauty is you can see what neck tension your load likes ie go .003 or turn a wilson bushing upside down and you get 1/2 thou changes so you could go 1.5 thou neck tension ...usually 2 thou neck tension is good
set the die up if your using a f/l bushing die to give the right amount of bump on your shoulder and then your good to go
the manual that comes with each set is great and so is the customer service at Redding if you need help as well
good luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HomeSlice</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A few months ago somebody did a pretty good write-up on using these dies. Could someone repost that link? I can't seem to find it anywhere w/ search...
Thanks,
-Slice
</div></div>
First of all good choice... if your using Lapua brass then I would recommend not using the ball
I take Butch's and clean out the oil on the threads and inside as well
take your LOADED round and measure ....in fact measure a bunch and check your numbers then subtract .002 and that is your bushing size you need to use
the beauty is you can see what neck tension your load likes ie go .003 or turn a wilson bushing upside down and you get 1/2 thou changes so you could go 1.5 thou neck tension ...usually 2 thou neck tension is good
set the die up if your using a f/l bushing die to give the right amount of bump on your shoulder and then your good to go
the manual that comes with each set is great and so is the customer service at Redding if you need help as well
good luck
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
The expander balls are typically .001" or .002" less than the bullet diameter.
The Bushing is typically .001" or .002" less than the desired neck outside diameter.
The limit elastic deformation and beginning of plastic deformation of a neck diameter is typically .001" or .002".
Normal full length sizer die necks are typically .005" to .006" smaller than they need to be.
The real expander ball damage to accuracy starts when the expander ball goes into a neck and passes through to the case body. Then the full length sizing die makes the inside of the neck .008" smaller than the bullet. The die neck withdraws, the neck relaxes to .006" smaller than the bullet, the expander ball pulls through the neck expanding it to .001" less than the bullet diameters. The expander ball leaves the neck, and the neck relaxes back to .003" less than the bullet diameters. The expander ball, when pulling through the neck was pulling co-axially, but the shell holder was not. The neck, when changing diameters, was changing the direction the neck points by .004". The case is loaded with a powder, primer and a bullet. The bullet is pointed in the same crooked direction as the neck. The center of gravity of the bullet enters the bore off the center of the bore. The gun is fired and the rifling spins the bullet. The bullet center of gravity is being spun off the center of the bore. When the bullet escapes at the muzzle, centrifugal force throws the bullet in a direction off the center line of the bore. A generation ago, the US army and NRA calculated the effect of bullet tilt on accuracy and verified the math, up to 2moa error with 30 cal bullets tilted up to .004". Beyond that, the chamber bent the neck and bullet to .004" straightness.
What does it all mean?
If you have the right bushing, the expander ball does nothing to change the neck diameter, and with low neck pulling forces, probably does not bend the neck either, so there may be no degradation to accuracy. I load 60 different cartridges, and don't use and expander ball on any of them. I don't want to take the risk.
My Sinclair concentricity gauge arrived in a box that included a note like a fortune cookie. It said ~ "You will probably find the expander ball is the source of the problem."~
The expander balls are typically .001" or .002" less than the bullet diameter.
The Bushing is typically .001" or .002" less than the desired neck outside diameter.
The limit elastic deformation and beginning of plastic deformation of a neck diameter is typically .001" or .002".
Normal full length sizer die necks are typically .005" to .006" smaller than they need to be.
The real expander ball damage to accuracy starts when the expander ball goes into a neck and passes through to the case body. Then the full length sizing die makes the inside of the neck .008" smaller than the bullet. The die neck withdraws, the neck relaxes to .006" smaller than the bullet, the expander ball pulls through the neck expanding it to .001" less than the bullet diameters. The expander ball leaves the neck, and the neck relaxes back to .003" less than the bullet diameters. The expander ball, when pulling through the neck was pulling co-axially, but the shell holder was not. The neck, when changing diameters, was changing the direction the neck points by .004". The case is loaded with a powder, primer and a bullet. The bullet is pointed in the same crooked direction as the neck. The center of gravity of the bullet enters the bore off the center of the bore. The gun is fired and the rifling spins the bullet. The bullet center of gravity is being spun off the center of the bore. When the bullet escapes at the muzzle, centrifugal force throws the bullet in a direction off the center line of the bore. A generation ago, the US army and NRA calculated the effect of bullet tilt on accuracy and verified the math, up to 2moa error with 30 cal bullets tilted up to .004". Beyond that, the chamber bent the neck and bullet to .004" straightness.
What does it all mean?
If you have the right bushing, the expander ball does nothing to change the neck diameter, and with low neck pulling forces, probably does not bend the neck either, so there may be no degradation to accuracy. I load 60 different cartridges, and don't use and expander ball on any of them. I don't want to take the risk.
My Sinclair concentricity gauge arrived in a box that included a note like a fortune cookie. It said ~ "You will probably find the expander ball is the source of the problem."~
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
Thanks guys. The brass is LC 94 Match. Most of it is unfired. It's not the best stuff, but I have 2K of them, so I sure don't want to toss it.
There's a few that the mouth doen't look perfectly round, which is what got me thinking. The bushing I have is .334 (also have a .335). I do have a free floating carbide expander that I can use. I didn't think to measure the ball diameter, I'll do that tonight.
Next tension is tight enough to hold a bullet in place if I put moderate pressure against the tip using the wood loading bench.
I'm leaning towards using the ball, at least on the brass that looks "funny", but it seems like the normal use of it is debatable. I don't have any type of concentricity gauges.
The 50 or so rounds I've loaded so far using this brass don't have any visible runout, from eyeballing rolling them across the bench. So far, however, I've tossed the ones that don't look good into a coffee can until I decide what to do with them.
Thanks for the input so far.
-Slice
Thanks guys. The brass is LC 94 Match. Most of it is unfired. It's not the best stuff, but I have 2K of them, so I sure don't want to toss it.
There's a few that the mouth doen't look perfectly round, which is what got me thinking. The bushing I have is .334 (also have a .335). I do have a free floating carbide expander that I can use. I didn't think to measure the ball diameter, I'll do that tonight.
Next tension is tight enough to hold a bullet in place if I put moderate pressure against the tip using the wood loading bench.
I'm leaning towards using the ball, at least on the brass that looks "funny", but it seems like the normal use of it is debatable. I don't have any type of concentricity gauges.
The 50 or so rounds I've loaded so far using this brass don't have any visible runout, from eyeballing rolling them across the bench. So far, however, I've tossed the ones that don't look good into a coffee can until I decide what to do with them.
Thanks for the input so far.
-Slice
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
Use the FL die to partial size the neck with the bushing you prefer, for any brass you've fired in your chamber. Maybe set the die up with a spacer under the lock ring so that when you need to FL size, you just remove the spacer...
All the concentricity in the world won't matter if your chamber and barrel aren't in perfect alignment. Might try making a habit of orienting your cases with mfr name up, that way you eliminate one variable.
Might try polishing your expander ball also, or chuck the rod in a drill and use some abrasive to reduce the OD a bit. Tighten your decap rod when the decap pin is still in the flash hole. Expander ball might be problematic, but so could a cockeyed decap pin....
Sinclair used to sell a reloaders handbook. Worth finding a copy...
Use the FL die to partial size the neck with the bushing you prefer, for any brass you've fired in your chamber. Maybe set the die up with a spacer under the lock ring so that when you need to FL size, you just remove the spacer...
All the concentricity in the world won't matter if your chamber and barrel aren't in perfect alignment. Might try making a habit of orienting your cases with mfr name up, that way you eliminate one variable.
Might try polishing your expander ball also, or chuck the rod in a drill and use some abrasive to reduce the OD a bit. Tighten your decap rod when the decap pin is still in the flash hole. Expander ball might be problematic, but so could a cockeyed decap pin....
Sinclair used to sell a reloaders handbook. Worth finding a copy...
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All the concentricity in the world won't matter if your chamber and barrel aren't in perfect alignment.
</div></div>
I have been truing actions and dialing in barrels for a decade.
The wake up call was when I cut the threads off a 7mmRemMag Rem700 take off barrel.
I used a cut off tool in the lathe that left a burr that I did not de burr.
I cut the 98 Mauser threads and put in the 7mmRemMag reamer.
It got off center 0.005" and wobbled that much all the rway to headspacing. It never straightened out. The chamber measured .005" run out relative to the lathe when the chamber was done.
I have $35 + action + recoil pad +scope bases into that rifle.
It averages .75" at 100 yards.
It took me a while to figure out how it could shoot so well, when I have proven to myself how important it is to have concentric ammo.
It turns out that eccentric ammo enters the chamber with random rotational orientation.
But the off center chamber always has the same orientation.
So while eccentric ammo gets the bullet center of gravity off the bore center [and centrifugal force from bullet spin flings the bullets off the bore line at bullet escapement from the muzzle in randomly different directions], the off center chamber flings bullets off center into the same little hole in the target every time.
What does it all mean, Mommy?
Ammo concentricity is much more important than chamber concentricity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All the concentricity in the world won't matter if your chamber and barrel aren't in perfect alignment.
</div></div>
I have been truing actions and dialing in barrels for a decade.
The wake up call was when I cut the threads off a 7mmRemMag Rem700 take off barrel.
I used a cut off tool in the lathe that left a burr that I did not de burr.
I cut the 98 Mauser threads and put in the 7mmRemMag reamer.
It got off center 0.005" and wobbled that much all the rway to headspacing. It never straightened out. The chamber measured .005" run out relative to the lathe when the chamber was done.
I have $35 + action + recoil pad +scope bases into that rifle.
It averages .75" at 100 yards.
It took me a while to figure out how it could shoot so well, when I have proven to myself how important it is to have concentric ammo.
It turns out that eccentric ammo enters the chamber with random rotational orientation.
But the off center chamber always has the same orientation.
So while eccentric ammo gets the bullet center of gravity off the bore center [and centrifugal force from bullet spin flings the bullets off the bore line at bullet escapement from the muzzle in randomly different directions], the off center chamber flings bullets off center into the same little hole in the target every time.
What does it all mean, Mommy?
Ammo concentricity is much more important than chamber concentricity.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
I also use the Redding type-S bushing dies. I FL size and I do not use the expander ball unless a neck is dinged. Otherwise the expander just works the brass more and cause run out issues with no benefit.
I also use the Redding type-S bushing dies. I FL size and I do not use the expander ball unless a neck is dinged. Otherwise the expander just works the brass more and cause run out issues with no benefit.
Re: Using Redding type-S bushing dies
Try the carbide expander ball.
It is "floating" so it self centers and being carbide has minimal drag.
The trick is usaully finding someone that has them in stock.
Try the carbide expander ball.
It is "floating" so it self centers and being carbide has minimal drag.
The trick is usaully finding someone that has them in stock.
