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USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

BasraBoy

BasraBoy

Gunny Sergeant
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Mar 29, 2008
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Dark Side of the Moon
I know both the British and Germans did specify groupling capabilities when selecting rifles for conversion to sniper variants.

Does anybody know if the USMC had or published any formal accuracy tests/requirements for the M1903A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle?

If so, where can these be found or can you give a link to where they could be found?

I can only find specifications for the NM rifles (even that does not specify a performance requirement -only dimensions and characteristics).
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

I know the current USMC requirement is 1 MOA or less.

During WW1, WW2, and Korea the USMC sniper programs were all ended once the wars were over.

Not much help but you will be looking for a specific sniper program during a certain time frame.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

I found this, i hope it helps.


"USMC M1903-A1/Unertl
Unlike the US Army, the USMC had a standard issue sniper rifle at the start of hostilities in WWII, it was a M1903/Lyman 5A (5x), which was adopted (with the Winchester A5 Telescope) during WWI. After there was a push to standardize sniper equipment, the Marine Corps Equipment Board did an extensive study of optics under field conditions and recommended a scope of about 8x, with an objective lens of about one and half inches, a medium fine crosshair reticle, and double micrometer quarter minute click mounts. They specifically cited a 8x target scope made by John Unertl as being the best they found. They also recommended the scope be mounted on a Winchester M70 target rifle, but the USMC decided on the M1903 based on favorable accuracy comparisons between specially selected M1903's and the M70. So the M1903-A1 mounted with the Unertl 8x became the "sniping standard" in the USMC.
The M1903-A1/Unertl was tested and at 600 yards and with M72 Match ammo would group 3.5 inches (.58 MOA, wow!!!) but match ammo was about impossible to come by during the war, so most snipers had to settle with M2 Ball ammo, which was till respectable with groups coming in at 7.5" at 600 yards (1.25 MOA). The M1903-A1/Unertl was used by the USMC through out WWII, along with the M1903-A4. The -A1/Unertl also saw use during the Korean war, with USMC snipers registering a number of kills out to 1000 yards. Like the M1903-A4 the M1903-A1/Unertl was a lethal system in the hands of a properly trained sniper during WWII and Korea."
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found this, i hope it helps.


"USMC M1903-A1/Unertl
Unlike the US Army, the USMC had a standard issue sniper rifle at the start of hostilities in WWII, it was a M1903/Lyman 5A (5x), which was adopted (with the Winchester A5 Telescope) during WWI. After there was a push to standardize sniper equipment, the Marine Corps Equipment Board did an extensive study of optics under field conditions and recommended a scope of about 8x, with an objective lens of about one and half inches, a medium fine crosshair reticle, and double micrometer quarter minute click mounts. They specifically cited a 8x target scope made by John Unertl as being the best they found. They also recommended the scope be mounted on a Winchester M70 target rifle, but the USMC decided on the M1903 based on favorable accuracy comparisons between specially selected M1903's and the M70. So the M1903-A1 mounted with the Unertl 8x became the "sniping standard" in the USMC.
The M1903-A1/Unertl was tested and at 600 yards and with M72 Match ammo would group 3.5 inches (.58 MOA, wow!!!) but match ammo was about impossible to come by during the war, so most snipers had to settle with M2 Ball ammo, which was till respectable with groups coming in at 7.5" at 600 yards (1.25 MOA). The M1903-A1/Unertl was used by the USMC through out WWII, along with the M1903-A4. The -A1/Unertl also saw use during the Korean war, with USMC snipers registering a number of kills out to 1000 yards. Like the M1903-A4 the M1903-A1/Unertl was a lethal system in the hands of a properly trained sniper during WWII and Korea."

</div></div>

Where did this come from?

Very interesting.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

Thanks for the help so far.

AMTeam4 - I'd be looking for WW2 test requirements

armydog - I seem to remember seeing that somewhere, but can't remember where. It would be great to confirm where the original source material for this came from.

Just for reference, I am building up a 1903 to USMC 1941 Sniper Rifle specs using a genuine USMC x8 Unertl.

With all the two projects projects I've done so far (98k and No4), I've started with a donor rifle that was proven to shoot to the required wartime standard - no point in doing these things if the rifle isn't a shooter (they're used regularly and are no wall hangers).

Springfields are pretty rare over this side of the water.

I've found one that is very close in serial number to the documented USMC M1903/1941 SR conversions (around 1938 manufacture). It has been arsenal refinished and the bore is in great shape. I've dug up the correct NM buttplate and modified handguard.

We're testing it for accuracy this Sunday so it would be good to know what the benchmark is.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

I have shot much of the old ammo and I doubt it matters what you shoot it in, accuracy is not going to match our modern standards. If using modern ammo, most any rifle will outshoot the old ammo. JMO
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

rth1800 - I take your point re: standards of modern ammo. Understood.

But we're talking about 70+ year old rifles - the key to the test is to prove that the donor rifle can still turn in the appropriate performance in it's current condition without the need for major repairs/rebarreling and additional expense.

if it can't, it is better to move on and find a rifle that can.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

BasraBoy, I have a real 03A1/41 rifle and some M2 ball ammo. next time I head to the range I can try it out for you. I also have some 1950's M72 I can run through it.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

I'll try to get to the range this Sunday morning and post results for you.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

Emilio, if you can shoot at 100yds, that wouldbe perfect as this is the max. ranger we can shoot at the range where we will test.

Look forward to seeing your results.

Thanks again!
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found this, i hope it helps.


"USMC M1903-A1/Unertl
Unlike the US Army, the USMC had a standard issue sniper rifle at the start of hostilities in WWII, it was a M1903/Lyman 5A (5x), which was adopted (with the Winchester A5 Telescope) during WWI. After there was a push to standardize sniper equipment, the Marine Corps Equipment Board did an extensive study of optics under field conditions and recommended a scope of about 8x, with an objective lens of about one and half inches, a medium fine crosshair reticle, and double micrometer quarter minute click mounts. They specifically cited a 8x target scope made by John Unertl as being the best they found. They also recommended the scope be mounted on a Winchester M70 target rifle, but the USMC decided on the M1903 based on favorable accuracy comparisons between specially selected M1903's and the M70. So the M1903-A1 mounted with the Unertl 8x became the "sniping standard" in the USMC.
The M1903-A1/Unertl was tested and at 600 yards and with M72 Match ammo would group 3.5 inches (.58 MOA, wow!!!) but match ammo was about impossible to come by during the war, so most snipers had to settle with M2 Ball ammo, which was till respectable with groups coming in at 7.5" at 600 yards (1.25 MOA). The M1903-A1/Unertl was used by the USMC through out WWII, along with the M1903-A4. The -A1/Unertl also saw use during the Korean war, with USMC snipers registering a number of kills out to 1000 yards. Like the M1903-A4 the M1903-A1/Unertl was a lethal system in the hands of a properly trained sniper during WWII and Korea."

</div></div>

Where did this come from?

Very interesting. </div></div>
I found it doing a Google search on Sniper Central Form.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

Just came back from the range. I shot two groups of 1943 dated M2 ball. At 100 yards it grouped just over 1.35" 1945 dated AP rounds grouped 1.25" and 1965 dated M72 match grouped just over .75 moa. i don't think that is too bad from a 1944 dated barrel on a 1934 dated action.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

emilio, George - thanks for the info.

We shot the 1903 over iron sights today at 100yds and it was holding 1" groups using some IMI 150gr 30-06 that Paul had.

Apart from a couple of minor worn parts issues and a sloppy trigger it looks like it could be a pretty good starting point.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

1MOA is pretty reasonable and if that's your starting point with arguably FAR from the best ammo available, then I'd say that you have an excellent rifle to build on for your clone/reproduction rifle.

Looking forward to seeing your progress along the way with this project!
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

Pgs 513 to 516 of Brophy's "The Springfield 1903 Rifle" have some good information for you. All the USMC 1903 Sniper Rifles were made at the S. Broad Street, Philadelphia Pa. Marine Depot (not the Navy Yard!). The Officers and men who made them were the same ones as made the USMC 1903A1 National match rifles for the Corps, and used that as the starting point. They had all the parts, tools, and skills to do it at least as well as Springfield Armory (or better).
The Marine 1903 would have a NM rear sight, a professionally modified front handguard, a US Marine Match style front sight blade and ring, It would have had a Star-Guaged barrel for sure, but that doesn't mean accuracy. it just means it was inspected with the guage and marked as such. They really weren't any more or less accurate than a standard barrel. They were just the ones picked for QA. All the 1903 barrels were notoriously accurate, eben the 2 groove 1303A3 ones. The USMC marked barrels occasionally seen around were made during WW II as replacement barrels by Sedgley. they were never part of the Sniper program and most were sold unused as surplus after the war. All seem to be dated 1944. You will also need to find a "C" type 1903 stock with the proper cartoches. Good luck with that. You will have to settle for a reproduction. There are guys who have the stamps and will put them on a stock for you if you send it to them, for a price.
Finding a genuine Star guaged barrel will be a hunt too, especially if tyou want one in good condition. New/Old stock wis unattainable at any price. They got used up long ago.
I aw one at a gun show about 12 years ago for sale at just over $5,000. On examination it really seemed correct in all aspects, from the star gauge mark on the front of the barrel, to the front and rear sights, the USMC marked scope, the stock, bolt, and barrel, as well as the serial # being in the correct range.
I should have bought it. It would be worth over twice that now, easy. If it was put together by somebody he sure knew what he was doing and went to a lot of effort and expense to get it right.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

donttrytorun - thanks, some great information there.

As you say there is plenty of information available from many sources re: the spec of NM rifles and characteristics of the USMC 1941 SR.

NM specs seem to be "limited" to dimensions and tolerances of the bore, grooves and headspace and other modifications. A great place to start to assess the condition of a barrel these days, but no guarantee of accuracy.

As I understand, conformity to spec is what the star-gauge signified - not actual performance.

Unlike German and British wartime selection of rifles for conversion to sniper specification, although I've found confirmation that the USMC did conduct accuracy tests for selection, what exactly those tests were and what consituted a "pass" remains uncertain.

Re: this project - I agree that finding 100% correct parts will be next to impossible and realistically, if that were the aim, then I'd probably do better to try to buy a genuine example (if I were ever able to find one in the UK or from a US seller/source willing to export).

But I don't have the funds for that and using an important/rare/valuable piece of firearms history regularly has cetain unavoidable risks attached.

I must state that the objective of the project is not to fake a rifle in order to fool collectors and fleece the unsuspecting/misinfomed. Paul goes to great lengths to ensure that the rifles cannot be sold on later as originals.

The aim is to create a replica that closely matches the performance and experience of the originals, using original vintage parts where possible, practical and financially viable.

However. as with my last two projects, I have to accept that there will be a certain amount of reproduction parts required (so far just the scope blocks and screws on the M1903).

I have already been very lucky to find not only a genuine USMC x8 Unertl with the screw-in lens covers, but also a mint condition 12/1" NM buttplate and a genuine USMC modified handguard. Frankly, that is already better than I had hoped for.....

As with my Mauser and Enfield clones, the objective is to find a donor rifle that is in top condition and (more importantly) shoots at least as well as an original might have been expected to perform back in the day.

This way Paul (my smith) can create a rifle that is to all intents and purposes a faithful reproduction of the original that will perform as an original would have done and will be an interesting and unusual rifle to own (and also retain a major percentage of it's costs as a resale value when I no longer have a need for it).

ORD - yes, sure....I'll keep everyone posted on progress. Just as a taster of what we want to achieve, this is Paul's website and he wrote up an article on the conversion he did on my No4:

http://www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk/

Click on the appropriate Technical Note on the left hand menu.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This way Paul (my smith) can create a rifle that is to all intents and purposes a faithful reproduction of the original that will perform as an original would have done and will be an interesting and unusual rifle to own (and also retain a major percentage of it's costs as a resale value when I no longer have a need for it).
</div></div>

I like old WWII era rifles as well (who doesent!), and have restored one to mint condition. Shoots nicely!

Still, I wouldnt see original spec (dimensions) but modern barrel as problem. They did make match grade barrels then too, as well as damn accurate rifles. Give old warhorse a fair chance- with new barrel if you cant find fresh original.

Just my 0.02
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This way Paul (my smith) can create a rifle that is to all intents and purposes a faithful reproduction of the original that will perform as an original would have done and will be an interesting and unusual rifle to own (and also retain a major percentage of it's costs as a resale value when I no longer have a need for it).
</div></div>

I like old WWII era rifles as well (who doesent!), and have restored one to mint condition. Shoots nicely!

Still, I wouldnt see original spec (dimensions) but modern barrel as problem. They did make match grade barrels then too, as well as damn accurate rifles. Give old warhorse a fair chance- with new barrel if you cant find fresh original.

Just my 0.02 </div></div>

I hear you....but my preference would be to have as much of the rifle original as possible.

Good condition rifles with original barrels that still shoot well and have plenty of life left in them are still out there....they just need finding and checking.

Given the quality of the two rifles we've found, I think we're a long way from having to settle for a shot out or buggered up original that needs a virtual rebuild to make it viable as the starting point for this project.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

Good condition 03's are around, and to be honest most of the guys who bought them back in the 30's and 50's are dead or dying, and their heirs don't have much interest.
i got a 03 about 12 years ago with a 2/18 barrel date and a Ser# to match that approx date of manufacture, that is just above the ones that are considered unsafe due to the case hardening issues. It is all milled parts, and everything is blued. The walnut furniture has a reddish hue to it. I took it to a guy who deals with old US rifles extensively and he gauged the bore. It is 8.5+ on a scale of 10. no pitting. Straight stock. No cartouches. No star gauge mark.
I got it because it very well could have been a Marine's rifle at Bellau Wood. Shoots great, once I found the right front sight blade for the front. Then I got hold of a fat USMC match style front blade and large hood and had to go back to the range. I filed the front down very carefully until it was the correct height for the rear sight scale, and then touched up the top with blue/black. Using the aperture it gave me one foot groups at 600, the farthest I went.
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

All of the 1903's used by the Marine Corp. snipers where either 1903A1 national match rifles or where built to NM specs. like was described earlier. Not just the spec. of the barrel and headspace. but trigger pull weight set, and stock properly fitted to the gun etc...as well. Then the Unertl was fit to them. I rebuilt a 1903 Springfield so it's like a USMC Model 1941 sniper rifle. With three differences. We made and I installed a new barrel and the type c stock I had was cracked in two places so I glass bedded it. I also installed a headless type NM cocking piece (normal USMC ones had the standard type cocking piece.

With my handloads it was consistently grouping around 1/3moa. Depending on the lot of M72 match ammo it will shoot that ammo right around 3/4moa.

GA Precision did the cerakote finishing work for me.

I'll dig up the specs. at home tonight about what a 03 NM match gun was expected to shoot for accuracy requirements before it left Springfield Armory. It's in Brophy's book.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

Frank, thanks.

I've gone back and looked at the NM chapter in Brophy (perhaps I had been concentrating too much on searching the USMC related chapters for this info?).

It mentions average group size of 3.5" with 2" - 2.5" not uncommon (p194). So 1MOA - 1.25MOA with 1.75MOA average.

It would be good to know if this is the figure that USMC looked for.

I'm pretty happy with the 1MOA (shot of a portable table and bag) that we got out of the rifle we'll use - given the IMI ammo, unpolished trigger and worn worm gear on the rear sight, I'm feeling pretty good about the prospects.

Replacement worm gear is on the way.

Here's a pic of the rifle in it's current state:

feb-stock-pt2-015.jpg


As we move on, I'll put a thread together with more details

 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

Man, I love those 1903's

Frank bring the 03 to the F Class Nationals and you will probably have a gang beat you up and take it. LOL Just kidding
 
Re: USMC accuracy tests/requirements?

I also did some digging in my books at home.

One text I found said that the NM 03's the actions where bedded into the stocks. Also some of the targets shown in Brophy's book of NM 03's showed around 2 moa goups but the targets shown there was righting on them and said that they where shot with standard ball ammo and not match ammo. One of the type B match rifle targets said it was shot with match ammo.

Also my gun I did pick up a NS bolt and added that when I re barreled it. I modified the hand guard. Also I picked up an original set of scope bases. Those are not repos. The original ones had a small hole on one side for the Win. A5 scope mounts. I also added a Timney trigger to my gun.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
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