Night Vision Value of an unused unlocked Raptor?
- Thread starter STI 45
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Great question and one I've been curious about lately. Historically these FP unlocked raptars were going in the $5k range and my opinion is they are still worthy of that premium. There still isn't anything on the market that rivals their capability. The purchaser just has to understand they are taking a bit of a risk given the unit will likely be locked if they have to send it in for repair work.
For $7500 you can get an s/es, which is way more than $1500 better than an unlocked Raptar which really is only a moderately good FP illuminator. And you get factory service.
There's nothing illegal about it so I don't see how. That said, may want to at least know that whoever gets it understands what it can do if aimed at a person or car, and most definitely the serious trouble that can be had if it was directed at aircraft. I would think anyone here that's an active member would fit that description.
To see both the possible pitfalls and the potentials of such an endeavor you ought to search/find old threads in the NV section here on the Hide relating to this subject. Some vendor was offering "unlocking" services on said product, which pissed off another vendor who turned them into the manufacturer who then started legal action against the first one, etc.
Drama, yes but unfortunately the NV industry is full of it...
But the important point for you the buyer is there is good info in those threads relating to making the decision of going that route or not. Wade through the BS in those threads to see if that course of action is right for you or not.
If I was in the market for or considering that product I would definitely read those threads for a lot of helpful info.
Drama, yes but unfortunately the NV industry is full of it...
But the important point for you the buyer is there is good info in those threads relating to making the decision of going that route or not. Wade through the BS in those threads to see if that course of action is right for you or not.
If I was in the market for or considering that product I would definitely read those threads for a lot of helpful info.
And no one has produced any evidence that the 2nd vendor was involved in contacting anyone that I have seen. Happy to be corrected if anyone has anything other than innuendo and bs. It isn’t as if the vendor doing the unlocking was being discrete about anything. It was pretty out there.
the bottom line is if you buy it unlocked then you definitely have a warranty issue--IF you ever need it. But it certainly is not worth what you paid-atleast in my mind.
And the vendor issue is not important here. Bottom line is number one got turned in and slapped on the wrist, and made a lot of money.
And the vendor issue is not important here. Bottom line is number one got turned in and slapped on the wrist, and made a lot of money.
My unlocked RAPTAR cost me $4,300 and my Kestrel Elite which is night and day easier to use than the S/ES cost me $600 for a total of savings of $2,600 as compared to the S/ES plus I have range cards and wind reading capability.
The Kestrel in night mode has a larger screen and navigating through the menus is a lot easier IMHO. Add the FP lasers and FP illuminator, which BLOWS AWAY the one on the S/ES, and it is a no brainer. The fact that the S/ES has an illuminator is comical...it is useless. Therefore, you need a real illuminator plus the S/ES which is going to push the cost to more than $7,500. The integration of ballistics attached to a 1970s display is also kind of ridiculous. The only advantage of the S/ES is the TRAC IR capability but then you need an optic that can take advantage of that capability.
Nothing is perfect...The warranty issue is not really an issue. If it fails under warranty, WILCOX has to repair it but will turn it back to ES mode. So what. The LRF is still better than anything out there other than a Vectronix which is a shit ton more money. I had a SilencerCo RADIUS and a Terrapin X and this LRF blows both away in speed and ability to produce good readings in all conditions on small targets. I think it is worth the original cost of the locked unit. So I would be out the unlocking fee...big deal. If it fails out of warranty, the cost of repair would be high enough where I would toss it and buy whatever is new on the market.
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No and anyone that tells you otherwise is full of shit. The only issue is that it is an ITAR controlled item so there needs to be some caution with who you sell it to and some paperwork that needs to be signed.
What people don't seem to understand is Wilcox's real issue which was that a vendor got a hold of a dongle that could unlock the unit and he was using it in an unauthorized manner which COULD be illegal. That is the issue. There is no illegality associated with possessing such a unit. The unit is properly designated as a ClassIIIb unit and that is the ONLY requirement per CFR and FDA regulations
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At 4300 it is fine. At 6000 it is ridiculous.
As far as the rest, I have a UTC xii, so I can use the cable, but even without the TracIr, I find the s/es setup much better than rangefinder plus kestrel. To each his own. The illuminator is only OK on the unlocked Raptar, though I believe the S has a very good illuminator in comparison. Haven't seen one. I much prefer illumination coming from an angle anyway, at least when there is another person around.
I do agree with you that nobody is getting sued over a Raptar.
The S is 100mw and is perfectly clean from edge to edge. The S ES is laughable when it comes to IR, but the range finder and AB still make it worth it in my book. It’s a very handy tool no doubt.
Originally there were two high power models, one at 50mW and one at 80mW specifically for the illuminator. The 80mW version was discontinued some time ago and Wilcox has only been selling the 50mW version for the past few years.
I agree the S illuminator is pretty clean and 50mW is plenty for >1k yards (1k is the furthest I have made shots with it, but it can definitely go much further). I also find integrated AB much more convenient then a kestrel and LRF.
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You've shot 1000 yards at night using NV and the WILCOX IR Illuminator? That is impressive.
What did you use for optical setup? I would assume a day scope with NV clip on?
What about wind?
I would love an integrated solution but I also want FP IR versus a separate unit. If I could find an RAPTAR S for sale, I would go that route
I was using a Tangent Theta 5-25x and stock PVS-27. It was super calm and only dialed 0.9mil for wind, most of which was from the PVS-27 collimation.
The reason a FP Raptar isn’t the end all is it should always be pointed where your zeroed reticle points, that way you have confidence in what you range. So as soon as you dial in your solution, your illuminator isn’t pointed at your target. If you want to illuminate your target, you need to widen the beam of the illuminator to cover that difference. As I said the 50mW illuminator can do this fine, it’s just not ideal.
That said I wouldn’t hesitate to use a eye safe Raptar and a secondary FP laser. Ideally I would pick an illuminator with tool less adjustment like a LA5 or DBAL A2, that way you can easily adjust the beam to where you dial your scope.
If your reticle allows, you can compensate for where the Raptar is zeroed. Dial up, hold under. This would assume everything is tracking together and the Raptar doesn’t have a cant to it in reference to the scope. Alternatively, a hold over reticle such as a Horus or similar, can be advantageous.
I have a pvs24-LR that I intend to use for long range at night. What illuminator would be best? The d-bal A2? I don't know which FP illuminator would work best for being able to illuminate my target with a dialed scope.
Got a LS 3x18x44, cnvd-LR and the DBAL 2A works great and use a LUNA IR.
Not into shooting much out past 6/800 as that is all I have and only 300 on live targets as that is about it for positive ID.
Shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor, most of the time
Not into shooting much out past 6/800 as that is all I have and only 300 on live targets as that is about it for positive ID.
Shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor, most of the time
There is a very reasonably priced LA-5 for sale in the exchange.
If I hadn’t just bought another PVS-14, it would be mine.
DBAL-A2 or LA5 would work fine and both have tool less adjustment. Neither have super clean illuminators, but still work fine. DBAL-D2 has good range too, but no adjustment for the illuminator so better on a spotter. The LUNA is also impressive considering the price.
False.
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True.
The raptar would have made a better tool with tool less zero adjustment on the illuminator. This is a big deal on systems like the LA-5 when paired with long range optics use for night festivities.
One of the reasons why the Atilla is still one of the very best clip on illuminators.
I would do an d2 over an a2
Unfortunately that sticker does not represent the actual power of the illuminator. I have the same exact sticker on mine and it is for sure a 50mW model. So I think Wilcox uses it as a generic laser safety CYA label, and/or they are adding the IR pointer and illuminator numbers together to get a total output. This is in contrast to the PEQ-15 series where the sticker is different for the PEQ-15, LA5, and UHP. So unless you can find a spec sheet from Wilcox showing a 100mW illuminator, my earlier statement is still true.
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Just lobbed a Q into Wilcox to get to the bottom of it. You might be onto something, and my curiosity is taking over.
I would find it difficult to believe that Wilcox is using a generic label.
The labeling rules are defined by FDA rules for laser safety designation. I would have to refer to the documents to get an accurate answer as I haven't read them in a while.
The labeling rules are defined by FDA rules for laser safety designation. I would have to refer to the documents to get an accurate answer as I haven't read them in a while.
Ahhh crap…
I’ll chime-in.
The 100mW label on the “full power” Raptar-S indeed *IS* an actual 100mW. I have both FP Raptar-S units and have/had a couple of different unlocked 50mW non-S units. I compared them in a post last year. The 100mW labeled unit is definitely more powerful when both are set to maximum output — they’re very clearly not the same.
That said, I’ve “heard” the label *might* be the laser diode rating and not necessarily the actual output rating. The outputs on both the Rap-S and Raid-X are physically labeled at 100mW and, at least visually, look identical when set to a similar circumference/focus/width for all practical purposes. Without actual test measuring equipment, it is nearly impossible to reliably tell the difference between 80mW and 100mW output, but you CAN clearly see the difference between the 50/100mW labeled units.
The one thing I can say is that when directly comparing the Raid-X (100mW labeled) and the NGAL (80mW labeled), the RAID illuminator is slightly better/brighter and is more uniform — but that can’t necessarily be attributed exclusively to their rated outputs.
ETA: The discrepancies could boil down to something as simple as Wilcox marketing and documentation not having direct contact with engineering and manufacturing and getting their info through intermediaries.
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Welcome back.
i believe the only way to know for sure is to send all of that gear to me
and I will evaluate it and POSSIBLY send it back with any comments I can recall.
SF
and I will evaluate it and POSSIBLY send it back with any comments I can recall.
SF
Night Vision - Utc-X , Raptar S, Tracir
Looking to sell package. excellent condition Utc X Demo (legit) hi power Raptar S Tracir cable. 26k obo
www.snipershide.com
False.
I just got an email from Chuck at Wilcox who confirmed both the illuminator and laser are 80mw. 100mw would have been sweet though.
?
Did he tell you why every Rap-S (and Raid-X) has a label on the unit stating 100mW?
Interesting. Was Chuck specific about which model? There was a G03 high power model which was 80mW, but they only sell the G01 now which is claimed to be 50mW. Also, are you sure about the pointer being 80mW? That doesn’t align with any marketing documents or the user manual. Even between the G01 and G03 the pointer is stated as being 50mW.
As mentioned earlier, there was a 80mW S produced at some point, so that could explain why your S looks brighter then a unlocked non-S. Is yours a model G03?
Like I said earlier, I wouldn’t be surprised if the 100mW label is referring to the pointer and illuminator combined, especially since they are co-aligned.
@Capt_Right @TheHorta
he didn’t say why it has a 100mw label, and I didn’t ask. The fact that the IR laser is also 80mw is impressive.
he didn’t say why it has a 100mw label, and I didn’t ask. The fact that the IR laser is also 80mw is impressive.
This!
Both of my Rap-S’s are G01 — including the one with a 09/2020 MFG date. The older one is 11/2015 MFG
Both say 100mW on the IR laser label.
They’re both noticeably brighter than both of the 50mW non-S unlocked Raps. I’m not that impressed with the 50mW output.
