Varget kernels

[flysolo]

Used up all my older Varget and cracked a new 8lb the other day and the kernel shape and length are all over the place.

Contacted Hodgdon, said they use a new process to cut the powder and that this was normal and beneficial to the burn.
Maybe I’ve been under a rock?

This is maybe half the oddballs from a single 24g drop.

 

[CheapBasterd]

I don’t believe that it’s beneficial to burn.
If they have mixed size kernels like that I would expect them to say “shake well before use”.
I would expect those different sizes kernels will settle/separate from larger kernels.

Now I gotta go check my stash…

 

[biffj]

Just shoot and and see. If its bad then bitch out Hodgdon, if it works you're good. Not much good to worry until you've actually tried using it.

Frank

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Been shooting H4831 for many years which also comes in H4831SC (Short cut) and the burn rate is the same regardless of the size of the kernels, although the SC usually meters a little better.

 

[supercorndogs]

It looks like it would be ebfificial to metering...if they were all that size.

My first instinct said shoot it and see.

My second says Hodgdon probably knows. And the only way to prove them wrong would be to shoot it.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Doesn’t kernel size relate to pressure at different points in the barrel?

Maybe they mean smaller “grains” present more surface area and contribute to a more even steady burn with the same or better pressure? Same powder charge by weight, but more individual pieces with more surface area?

I’m a legal retard so maybe I’m having a moment?

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Doesn’t kernel size relate to pressure at different points in the barrel?

Maybe they mean smaller “grains” present more surface area and contribute to a more even steady burn with the same or better pressure? Same powder charge by weight, but more individual pieces with more surface area?

I’m a legal retard so maybe I’m having a moment?

I gave an example of the same powder in two different size kernels and it has same velocity and prints same on target. IMO as long as the powder is completely/mostly burnt before it leaves the barrel it doesn't care what the size of the kernel was.

 

[flysolo]

Definitely going to shoot it.

The settling/even distribution argument makes sense to me. How could that not cause variation? Bottom of the container could be 90% small kernels. That would be a hell of a lot more surface area exposed.

 

[M4orturnate]

Won't make a difference. I had a jug with huge kernals like a half inch long and curly. Crazy size differences and it didn't change anything from the previous jug. Similar speeds and sds

 

[CheapBasterd]

a half inch long and curly.

You need to keep the lid on the jug man...

 

[flysolo]

Won't make a difference. I had a jug with huge kernals like a half inch long and curly. Crazy size differences and it didn't change anything from the previous jug. Similar speeds and sds

No shit?! Crazy. Good to hear.

 

[M4orturnate]

No shit?! Crazy. Good to hear.

Yep tried to find the pic but I must have deleted it. Went thru 3 jugs in my 6br last year and the only time the speed changed is when I switched barrels. Idk how but it works

 

[jzerfoss]

Looks like SW Precision powder. My IP Trickler did not like the size inconsistencies.

 

[M4orturnate]

Found the pic

 

[flysolo]

Did you have to chop it up on a mirror with your credit card so it would fit in the case?

 

[M4orturnate]

Did you have to chop it up on a mirror with your credit card so it would fit in the case?

Those were what was left out of my hopper after loading 300 rounds for a match. They wouldn't fit thru the trickle.

 

[sinister]

Varget and a bunch of other different Hodgdon powders are actually produced in Australia by Thales - Australian Defense Industries.

A number of years ago ADI built another powder line to replace the original, older line that I am assuming needed replacing or would have been kept in-place as one of two production lines.

My understanding (from Ozzies) was the second line was coming along nicely but had some bugs -- nothing insurmountable but still not corrected. Some bean counter exec made the decision to close the original line to reduce cost-debt before all the bugs in the new line had been worked out.

The new line caught fire with extensive damage at about the same time as the Wu-Flu and the West Coast port stoppages -- why there was and is a shortage of Varget, Retumbo, H-1000, and IMR 8208 BR to this day. They only ship to the states once or twice a year.

For education and entertainment:

 

[rweaver00geo]

the color doesnt even look right

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I have an 8-pound jug of Varget purchased October 2022. Its kernels look like OP's photo, albeit with fewer of the really small ones. I'm only about halfway through that jug. I would expect larger kernels to work their way to the top as the container is handled, so it may well be the proportion of small kernels will increase.

I have no experience with Varget other than with this single container.

 

[OREGUN]

Varget is terribly inconsistent and meters poorly. Pm me for the address. I’ll take care of it for you.

 

[flysolo]

Just an update on this post. This powder lot yielded a loss of 75 fps and increased SD's by over 200%. I've tested it well. Hodgdon politely told me to go pound sand, I didn't expect any different. I've had to make adjustments for lot changes, but this is pretty much back to the drawing board.

Noveske stainless 18.5
LC 12-14
CCI 400
Hornady 75 hpbtm
24.0 varget
COAL- 2.260
AVG SD- 9.0
AVG V- 2705fps
.5 MOA @ 100y, held MOA out to 600y

current results with the identical set up:
AVG SD- 22.0
AVG V- 2630fps
.8 MOA@ 100y, 2 MOA at 600y



Loaded 5 each of the new powder at 24.5g (left) and 25.0g (right) both of which would have shown some pressure signs previously. Nothing to see here.
24.5g- 2667fps SD- 21.5
25.0g- 2744fps SD-21.7
both grouped over an inch

Here's the lot #

 

[RegionRat]

I'm a little surprised they didn't ask you to return at least a sample of what you reported. Did they at least look at your photos?

 

[flysolo]

I'm a little surprised they didn't ask you to return at least a sample of what you reported. Did they at least look at your photos?

They did initially ask for pics, at the time I hadn’t tested any so I sent the irregular grain pics and lot number.
I replied to them with these results after testing and they blamed it on moisture content of the powder.

 

[lash]

Well, to be fair, moisture content does have a correlation to burn rate. That has been measurably established.

It has also been shown that powder stored inside with a low humidity will eventually stabilize at that humidity level, even in a closed container.

 

[Lightning8]

New kernel sizing justifies the Varget price increases (joke)

 

[flysolo]

Well, to be fair, moisture content does have a correlation to burn rate. That has been measurably established.

It has also been shown that powder stored inside with a low humidity will eventually stabilize at that humidity level, even in a closed container.

Absolutely, showcasing a lack of QC on Hodgdon's part.

 

[M4orturnate]

Absolutely, showcasing a lack of QC on Hodgdon's part.

All hodgdon does is rebrand it. They don't make it

 

[FuhQ]

Just checked the most recent 10 lbs. crate of Varget I ordered late last year, and the lot number looks to be after your's, if you go by the last 4 digit code. Also, none of mine have the digital code scan thing on them... So, not sure if it was made before yours, or what's going on. Here's a few pics of the kernels from this lot number, and they look like all the Varget I've used before, but overall they maybe slightly smaller in size, which will be nice to fit in smaller cases like the 6 ARC, where room is extremely limited.

 

[RegionRat]

They did initially ask for pics, at the time I hadn’t tested any so I sent the irregular grain pics and lot number.
I replied to them with these results after testing and they blamed it on moisture content of the powder.

I see. So then that suggests the next move would be to get that powder spread open and exposed to near 50% RH and see if there is any improvement?

I find it hard to explain the shift you reported up above, but that would move the gameboard forward and tend to either support or refute the water content issue.

Your average went from 2705 to 2630 and that is a lot to explain for what is supposed to be a temp stable powder. You would have to have exposed it to a fairly humid condition to slow it down that far, but it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. It also doesn't explain what appears to be "crumbs" of powder instead of uniform kernels does it?

Good luck and in for the range report if you re-test.

 

[lash]

Absolutely, showcasing a lack of QC on Hodgdon's part.

Not at all. How do you figure?

 

[flysolo]

Here's the previous lot that I was working with. Thought I used them all, gladly I was wrong. It is fresh (within the last year) sealed, stored well, which should negate any possibility of human error on my part. Uniform kernels that we've all seen a million times.

 

[flysolo]

Here's a little metal capped blast from the past. Been open for at least 14 years, probably more like 18, moved across the country a few times. I'll load a few up and see how they compare.

FuhQ those are damn good photos, is that your phone?

 

[sinister]

I've been shooting Varget in 5.56 and 7.62 since 1999.

Lot-to-lot velocities vary enough that it pays to buy an 8-pound jug to keep your loads consistent (as opposed to velocity changes between various 1-pound cans loading cartridges over several years).

Reinforcing the standard recommendation in loading manuals to try to stick to components from known lots.

 

[FuhQ]

Yep tried to find the pic but I must have deleted it. Went thru 3 jugs in my 6br last year and the only time the speed changed is when I switched barrels. Idk how but it works

I can echo this... I use A LOT of Varget, and have for 15+ years, from MANY different lots, even mixed a few 1 lb'ers together when you get near the end of one, and not quite enough to do anything with. Mix it with the next jug and shake it around thoroughly. And I've never changed my load recipe in any of my rifles and they all shot the exact same, provided I do my part.

 

[flysolo]

I can echo this... I use A LOT of Varget, and have for 15+ years, from MANY different lots, even mixed a few 1 lb'ers together when you get near the end of one, and not quite enough to do anything with. Mix it with the next jug and shake it around thoroughly. And I've never changed my load recipe in any of my rifles and they all shot the exact same, provided I do my part.

That's been my experience up until now. Varget hasn't been a high volume powder for me but I've been using it in some quantity since the mid 2000's, I'd estimate that I've burned 50-60 pounds of the stuff. This is the first time I've ever seen the ugly kernels. Aesthetics aside, I'm seeing poor performance from this lot. Are they connected? I'm not sure.

I've done some digging, talked to a few old timers I trust that said suck it up and move on. It happens, rarely, one said he's seen a full 100fps swing more than once. Chris Way said the same on a podcast I caught the other day.

I might keep playing with it, worst case it goes into carbine ammo, no big deal. Really just a heads up at this point, this lot is giving me fits, YMMV.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

The lot number is 1 number off from yours and I have the familiar kernels from varget. It's strange to see but yea...8lbers are the way.

 

[lash]

That's been my experience up until now. Varget hasn't been a high volume powder for me but I've been using it in some quantity since the mid 2000's, I'd estimate that I've burned 50-60 pounds of the stuff. This is the first time I've ever seen the ugly kernels. Aesthetics aside, I'm seeing poor performance from this lot. Are they connected? I'm not sure.

I've done some digging, talked to a few old timers I trust that said suck it up and move on. It happens, rarely, one said he's seen a full 100fps swing more than once. Chris Way said the same on a podcast I caught the other day.

I might keep playing with it, worst case it goes into carbine ammo, no big deal. Really just a heads up at this point, this lot is giving me fits, YMMV.

While I am also in the camp of shit happens and suck it up, it’s looking more and more like you ended up with the dregs from something and Hodgden reps should at least acknowledge that, if nothing else.

 

[sinister]

While I am also in the camp of shit happens and suck it up, it’s looking more and more like you ended up with the dregs from something and Hodgden reps should at least acknowledge that, if nothing else.

To my understanding, Hodgden does NOT manufacture -- they market, bottle, label, sell, and ship, but they do not own nor operate a powder factory.

 

[lash]

To my understanding, Hodgden does NOT manufacture -- they market, bottle, label, sell, and ship, but they do not own nor operate a powder factory.

That’s true, but acknowledging that something is wrong isn’t an onus that only falls on the manufacturer.