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Varget weight for SPS Tactical

TAC308

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 22, 2010
110
0
49
Smyrna, GA
Guys,

I'm running a SPS Tactical in .308 and reloading with 175 Sierra Match Kings and Varget powder.

I'd like to know what powder weight would be a good starting point, and what those of you with the same rifle found to be the best powder weight for accuracy.

Thanks!
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

Using Winchester brass, I started my testing between 43.7g and 45.5g. I ultimately settled on 44.6 grains

untitled.jpg



<span style="font-weight: bold">OCW - round 1</span>
Picture003-2.jpg



<span style="font-weight: bold">OCW - round 2</span> (44.6 grains chosen)
Picture035.jpg
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

glock24. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. What does ES stand for?
2. What does OCW stand for?
3. At what distance was this test performed?
4. It appears that the 45.2 gr had a closer pattern than the 44.6 based on OCW round 1. So, what made you decided on the 44.6?

Thanks man!

P.S. - I'm using once fired Winchester brass and CCI 200 primers (if that matters at all)...
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

ES is Extreme Spread, or the highest recorded velocity minus the lowest velocity. The lower the ES, the less vertical dispersion you'll get downrange on those long shots.

OCW is Optimal Charge Weight. This is the powder charge that gives the most consistent point of impact with minor variations in charge weight, case capacity, and seating depth.

OCW tests are done by most shooters at 100 yards. That helps to reduce errors in the groups from environmental effects or shooter induced errors.

Group size is irrelevant during the OCW test. What you are looking for is a consistent point of impact of the center of the group over a range of charge weights. If you look at the 44.9gr and 45.5gr charge weights, you'll see the POI shift from the 45.2gr group. Most likely that load would shoot great, but would be finicky as hell about minor variations in temperature, case capacity, or charge weight. I'll take a load that will shoot .5-.75" with a charge weight variation of +/- .1gr in any conditions over a load that will shoot in the .3's or.4's but has to be absolutely perfect and goes to crap if it isn't.
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAC308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">glock24. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. What does ES stand for?
2. What does OCW stand for?
3. At what distance was this test performed?
4. It appears that the 45.2 gr had a closer pattern than the 44.6 based on OCW round 1. So, what made you decided on the 44.6?

Thanks man!

P.S. - I'm using once fired Winchester brass and CCI 200 primers (if that matters at all)... </div></div>

LOL! Good questions, although you have a lot more reading to do before you get started. I will try to send you in the right direction.

1. ES stands for extreme spread. It is simply the difference between the fastest and slowest velocity. Assuming your chrono is accurate, getting this number as small as possible means better long-range repeatability. Primer brand and neck tension are the bigger factors in small ES numbers.


2. Ah, OCW! It stands for optimum charge weight. It is a testing technique that attempts to study the time it takes for the bullet to exit the muzzle. The optimum time for this to occur is when the muzzle is the calmest, in reference to waves of vibrations that begin in the barrel the moment the primer is struck. Below is an excerpt, but definitely read this

<span style="font-style: italic">Engineer Chris Long's model of barrel behavior suggests (simply put, and in part) that the initial shock wave, generated by the powder
charge's ignition, travels at the speed of sound in steel (about 18.000 fps) from the chamber to the muzzle, then back, in a repeated pattern. When this wave is present at the muzzle, there is naturally much turbulence and obturation of the "roundness" of the bore at the muzzle. However, when this main shock wave has reverberated back to the
chamber end, the muzzle is relatively stable. This window of opportunity, according to Chris, is the best time for the bullet to exit the muzzle. The barrel is basically straight, and relatively calm.</span>


3. My testing above was done at 100 meters, BUT your final load should be verified at 300 meters or longer before calling it your final load.


4. Per my partial answer to question #2, what I'm looking for is a velocity range that has the most stable point of impact (POI). Forget about group size for a moment, and concentrate on <span style="text-decoration: underline">the location</span> of the group in relationship to the target square. See how the group is always around 5 o' clock between 44.3g and 44.9g? This means that despite small velocity changes, the bullets always go to the same spot on the target. Compare this to the 45.2g test. See how it is wandering around when compared to 44.9g and 45.5g? Finding a stable POI is the big clue that bullets in this speed range are leaving the muzzle when it has little to no vibrations.

I chose 44.6g because it is the dead center of this stable POI range. By doing so, I now have the same POI, even if I happen to charge a case a little high or a little low, or if I'm shooting in extremely hot or cold weather. Once my OCW is selected, group size can then be reduced through primer selection, neck tension, and bullet seating depth. In my second test, see how much bullet seating depth can affect accuracy?

Good luck with your testing. You're headed down the right path. We're here if you need us.

 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

You numbers for Winchester cases, 44.0gr of Varget and 175 SMKs match my initial chrono numbers almost exactly. However, now that I have about 500 rounds through the rifle, the 44.0 is shooting at 2550. It sped up 70 fps as the barrel broke in.

Also, I did a ladder test with Lapua brass. What I found was at 43.5 grains and up the rifle would not send the bullet any faster. I went up to 45.0 gr.

My rifle also shoots 155 Scenars well out to 1000. They are running 2680 and they shoot a lot flatter than the 175 SMKs. The 175 SMKs appear to be more stable in the transonic region though.
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

Thank you glock24 for the education. Everything you stated makes perfect sense to me and is much appreciated!

Question - are the bullet seating depth numbers written in your OCW round 2 test based on maximum OAL of 2.800?
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAC308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you glock24 for the education. Everything you stated makes perfect sense to me and is much appreciated!

Question - are the bullet seating depth numbers written in your OCW round 2 test based on maximum OAL of 2.800?

</div></div>

Happy to help, although it was this forum specifically that educated me a few years ago. There's good stuff here!

The seating depth measurements I wrote down are just my short-hand notation because I measure my COAL with a comparator

Translating those numbers into actual COAL, the -015" group is around a 2.821" COAL. I would recommend you start your testing at your maximum magazine length (assuming you're not touching the lands) and then seat the bullet deeper in subsequent tests.

 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

using WIN brass, Start around 43gr. You will probably end up somewhere between 43 & 45gr.

My load....
WIN Prepped Brass
Wolf LR Magnum Primers
175 SMK or 178 AMAX
45gr Varget

Always start low and work up, different guns and chambers will have different pressure signs.

YMMV
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Happy to help, although it was this forum specifically that educated me a few years ago. There's good stuff here!

The seating depth measurements I wrote down are just my short-hand notation because I measure my COAL with a comparator

Translating those numbers into actual COAL, the -015" group is around a 2.821" COAL. I would recommend you start your testing at your maximum magazine length (assuming you're not touching the lands) and then seat the bullet deeper in subsequent tests.

</div></div>

Uh oh... my head is starting to spin!

How do I use a comparator? I watched a quick video on YouTube, but I still don't understand what it does? Do I need a OAL gauge?

Sorry... I'm new to all this...
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

LOL!

Measuring loaded cartridges from the rim of the case to the tip of the bullet is problematic. Variation in tip dimension and quality between even 50 bullets in the same box can lead to measurement differences. As a precision hand-loader, this will drive you crazy.

A comparator allows you to measure from the rim of the case to the ogive of the bullet. The ogive of the bullet is located further back from the tip, but before the side walls of the bullet (where the rifling touches the bullet)

bullet2.jpg


Taking measurements from rim to ogive is much more accurate and repeatable because bullet manufacturers do a better job in this area of the bullet. This is also the area that actually touches your seater plug in your seater die. Unfortunately the use of a comparator creates COALs that are meaningless to other shooters, unless of course both are using the same comparator.

You don't need an OAL gauge, just a comparator and a good set of calipers.

 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You don't need an OAL gauge, just a comparator and a good set of calipers.

</div></div>

Okay... I've got calipers and I can buy a comparator...

But, how do I find out how much free bore I have without a OAL gauge?
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAC308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So let me get this straight...

The Ogive is the area of the bullet that actually contacts the rifling (first). So, taking a measurement from this area back to the case rim is the COAL.

Am I close? </div></div>

Not quite.

Any published COAL will always be from the case rim to the very tip of the bullet. This dimension is still important because of magazine box dimensions. It also lets all reloaders "speak the same language".

The reason comparators are used is because it allows a more accurate and repeatable dimension when adjusting seating depth of the bullet. As a precision reloader, you might want to make seating depth adjustments down to 0.001" or 0.002". A comparator allows you to measure these small changes in seating depth.

For example, I grabbed five loaded rounds and measured them from the case rim to the tip of the bullet;

2.8225"
2.8221"
2.8255"
2.8155"
2.8175"

Now suppose I wanted to seat the bullet deeper by 0.005". There's just no way I can do it based on the variation in measurements. And it is all because of the variation in bullet tip. Take a look at your box of bullets, and you quickly understand how different they are, especially an open-tip design such a Sierra.

In short, a comparator simply allows you to measure seating depth as accurately as possible. Is this critical when adjusting seating dies, and also measuring a rifle's chamber




 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAC308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Okay... I've got calipers and I can buy a comparator...

But, how do I find out how much free bore I have without a OAL gauge? </div></div>

What I do is take an unprimed case, and load a bullet into the case at a very long dimension. Let's say 2.95". Then what I'll do is mark the entire bullet wall and ogive with a permanent black marker, or some blue or red machinist fluid. Once the ink is try, chamber the round in your rifle. What will most likely happen is that it won't chamber, or it will chamber very hard. This is because the bullet is actually engaging the rifling.

Upon removal of the loaded round, the bullet will have 5 tiny, shiny marks in the ink spaced evenly around the diameter. These marks are the rifling touching the bullet.

Record the length with a comparator, clean the bullet with alcohol, and start the process again with a bullet that has been seated 0.005" deeper. Keep recording the length as you go.

Sooner or later, you will see the rifling marks disappear. This is the point at which the bullet is just shy of touching the rifling, and this dimension is your maximum free-bore length. I record this dimension, and call it my "zero" dimension. I then load all my test bullets to shorter lengths. I personally never want to get into the rifling with my hand-loads. Some guys do it however, and some bullets actually require it to shoot their best.

In your specific case (factory Remington 700), there is an almost 100% chance your magazine box is shorter than your chamber. In other words, you won't be able to load rounds long enough to touch your rifling. This isn't true with all rifles and calibers however, so it is good idea so know your free-bore.

Lastly, if you're more comfortable going the OAL gauge route, you certainly can. I used to have one, but I found it to be clumsy. I like seeing the rifling marks on my bullets rather than trusting the gauge.

 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

So, in order to get maximum accuracy I will have to load rounds longer than the magazine will allow to fit? That sucks!

Does it matter than I'm using a McRees Precision stock with (5) round magazine?
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

My once fired cases don't have enough neck tension to hold the bullet. So, I'll go ahead and size one and seat a bullet at the longer length you recommended...

Question - it appears on the other rounds that I've loaded that the back of the bullet it being "peeled." I understood this to be due to too much of a step in re-sizing the neck at one time and thus the cases were being over-sized. So, I made (2) steps in the resizing process but it still looks like this is happening... Do I need to lube the inside of the case neck?

And we digress! But, your helping me out tremendously and I very much appreciate your help!
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAC308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, in order to get maximum accuracy I will have to load rounds longer than the magazine will allow to fit? That sucks!

</div></div>

Absolutely not. Loading bullets shorter than the chamber length is called "jumping the bullet". Many bullets don't mind a little jump from the cartridge to the rifling. The trick is finding the best jump. This is done after finding the OCW.

In my original example, my bullets are jumping 0.015" from the case to the chamber. No accuracy problems at all. In fact, I had worse accuracy when I moved closer. You don't need to load close to the lands to enjoy excellent accuracy.

In general, any non-VLD bullet can be jumped without problems. Stay away from Berger VLDs and the Hornady A-Max, and you'll be fine. Sierra Match Kings and Hornady HPBTs are among the favorites here.

 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAC308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My once fired cases don't have enough neck tension to hold the bullet. So, I'll go ahead and size one and seat a bullet at the longer length you recommended...

Question - it appears on the other rounds that I've loaded that the back of the bullet it being "peeled." I understood this to be due to too much of a step in re-sizing the neck at one time and thus the cases were being over-sized. So, I made (2) steps in the resizing process but it still looks like this is happening... Do I need to lube the inside of the case neck?

And we digress! But, your helping me out tremendously and I very much appreciate your help! </div></div>

It looks like you can reload faster than I can type!

My guess is that your "peeling brass" problem is due to either too small of a resized neck, or because you forgot to chamfer the case mouth. Try chamfering the mouth before loading your bullets and see what happens

 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It looks like you can reload faster than I can type!

My guess is that your "peeling brass" problem is due to either too small of a resized neck, or because you forgot to chamfer the case mouth. Try chamfering the mouth before loading your bullets and see what happens

</div></div>

LOL! Sorry, I can type 90 wpm...

I'll try chamfering the inside of the neck. Thanks for the tip!
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
</div></div>

In my original example, my bullets are jumping 0.015" from the case to the chamber. No accuracy problems at all. In fact, I had worse accuracy when I moved closer. You don't need to load close to the lands to enjoy excellent accuracy.

[/quote]

That's good news since my magazine will allow a 2.821 OAL!
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

glock24 - if you're also using 175 SMK why can't you give me your OAL dimension via the comparator so that I can set my bullets at the same length? Or, do you think our chambers are different (you're shooting a SPS Tactical too right?)?
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

With that specific Sinclair International comparator (there are many others), my final OAL dimension is 3.1525". Again, this corresponds to a real COAL of around 2.82"
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAC308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">glock24 - if you're also using 175 SMK why can't you give me your OAL dimension via the comparator so that I can set my bullets at the same length? Or, do you think our chambers are different (you're shooting a SPS Tactical too right?)? </div></div>


that wont work either. yes your chamber will be slightly different that his.

you wont be able to transfer his comparator length into a COAL length.

i have an sps tac, and dont have a comparator.

what i did was measure the length of 10 or so bullets and chose the longest one.

i then seated that one the longest i could that would still fit feed from the magazine.

for me that is 2.833. So now i dont touch my seating die. I seat all my bullets based on that first

im getting some good groups with that length.

once i get a comparator, i will experiment with seating deeper, but for now im happy
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With that specific Sinclair International comparator (there are many others), my final OAL dimension is 3.1525". Again, this corresponds to a real COAL of around 2.82" </div></div>

Thanks.

I ordered a Hornady comparator and OAL gauge. And I'm going to try your marker trick just to see how close the OAL gauge is...

I will report back soon! Thanks for all the help guys!
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

Since I also have an SPS Tactical, I did some measuring on mine too. I too came up with 2.830" as the max that would fit in the mag. I have played with different COALs going from 2.800 to 2.900 with 175 SMKs and it frankly did not matter with this rifle. On my rifle I came up with ~2.950" (I have the exact figure written down somewhere) to seat in the lands. I wasn't sure that would even load as there was only about .030" of bearing surface in the case neck at that point.

I've been loading my 175 SMKs at 2.235" using a Hornaday comparator. That's about 2.825" OAL on average. I've been playing with some 155 Scenars; however, seated to the same length with the comparitor, the OAL is2.870". I seated them .025" shorter with the comparitor and they were still 2.840" OAL average.

Apparently Remington makes most of their over the counter guns with a long throat. My dimentions came out exactly the same at the OP in this 1000 yards with an SPS Tactical thread.
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skigolfmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since I also have an SPS Tactical, I did some measuring on mine too. I too came up with 2.830" as the max that would fit in the mag. I have played with different COALs going from 2.800 to 2.900 with 175 SMKs and it frankly did not matter with this rifle. On my rifle I came up with ~2.950" (I have the exact figure written down somewhere) to seat in the lands. I wasn't sure that would even load as there was only about .030" of bearing surface in the case neck at that point.

I've been loading my 175 SMKs at 2.235" using a Hornaday comparator. That's about 2.825" OAL on average. I've been playing with some 155 Scenars; however, seated to the same length with the comparitor, the OAL is2.870". I seated them .025" shorter with the comparitor and they were still 2.840" OAL average.

Apparently Remington makes most of their over the counter guns with a long throat. My dimentions came out exactly the same at the OP in this 1000 yards with an SPS Tactical thread. </div></div>

+1!

I installed my Hornady OAL gauge tonight and found that my chamber is 2.942!

So, I either need to modify the action to accept a longer load (and Type 2 magazine) or I just need to not worry about it...

Decisions........
 
Re: Varget weight for SPS Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Biner626</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't worry about it. Just Shoot them at book length. </div></div>

Trust me, I've considered it!

I'll probably just set to magazine length of ~ 2.850 (Alpha Type 1) and let 'em fly...