Yesterday me and a freind were shooting at the range in the most variable wind conditions I have ever shot in. 10-15 mph - not sustanded, from 6 oclock to 3-9 oclock and everything else in between. There were no lulls to speak of just a different varient from a different direction. We were not adjusting dope for the wind just the elevation, working on using the scopes hash marks for windage. My question: Is there a practical application for this type of shooting in such various wind conditions changing minute to minute - sometimes even shot to shot. I felt at times yesterday that we were just spinning our wheels not really accompling anything. My main reasoning is when I shoot and miss and tried to make the proper adjustments the wind I was shooting in has changed to a differnt value from a different direction. Just looking for some input...
Advanced Marksmanship Variable Wind
- Thread starter jac74
- Start date
Re: Variable Wind
Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think.
Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think.
Re: Variable Wind
I guess I've been spoiled living here in Fla, most of the time there is very little wind. I've also changed my mind set on "good or bad" shooting days. I'd see it was going to be windy and not go shoot, now I just go no matter the weather.
I guess I've been spoiled living here in Fla, most of the time there is very little wind. I've also changed my mind set on "good or bad" shooting days. I'd see it was going to be windy and not go shoot, now I just go no matter the weather.
Re: Variable Wind
I also have read up on shooting in the wind and I have personally never shot when the wind was consistent. I shoot my 308 about 500yds in a narrow pasture and wind swirls. I have started to set up numerous wind flags and most of the time they all dont point the same direction at the same time. I have learned to wait til the wind flags all read the same direction and hold off on windage. Its a crapshoot.
I also have read up on shooting in the wind and I have personally never shot when the wind was consistent. I shoot my 308 about 500yds in a narrow pasture and wind swirls. I have started to set up numerous wind flags and most of the time they all dont point the same direction at the same time. I have learned to wait til the wind flags all read the same direction and hold off on windage. Its a crapshoot.
Re: Variable Wind
As I've said many a time, "Only a pig can see the wind."
Old saying, don't know where it came from, but pretty damned true.
Thing about wind, you can have your shot all set up and then, POOF!!! the wind stops blowing.
Needless to say, I'm not the resident expert on wind on this site, but I've been shooting a long time . . . even back in the dark ages berfore multi-plex reticles, much less MIL and MOA reticles.
My general approach is to take what I feel to be the "average" velocity/relative angle of the wind between here and there and just go with it because no matter how good ya are, it's gonna change.
I've hit, I've missed, but that's just the nature of shooting.
As I've said many a time, "Only a pig can see the wind."
Old saying, don't know where it came from, but pretty damned true.
Thing about wind, you can have your shot all set up and then, POOF!!! the wind stops blowing.
Needless to say, I'm not the resident expert on wind on this site, but I've been shooting a long time . . . even back in the dark ages berfore multi-plex reticles, much less MIL and MOA reticles.
My general approach is to take what I feel to be the "average" velocity/relative angle of the wind between here and there and just go with it because no matter how good ya are, it's gonna change.
I've hit, I've missed, but that's just the nature of shooting.
Re: Variable Wind
one area we shoot the wind at the gun is almost always opposite of what you should shoot because of the terrain it is really hard to accept that here the wind is 3oclock at the target its 3oclock but everywhere in between its 9oclock. Totally a terrain induced illusion gets first timers everytime
still gets me too often, makes a real accurate wind call tough.
Really gets you on calmer days when there's no wind at the gun and a mysterious 1-2moa drift for no apparent reason.
Reading the wind on a nice fairly flat range is a whole lot easier than shooting in the hills or canyons.
one area we shoot the wind at the gun is almost always opposite of what you should shoot because of the terrain it is really hard to accept that here the wind is 3oclock at the target its 3oclock but everywhere in between its 9oclock. Totally a terrain induced illusion gets first timers everytime
still gets me too often, makes a real accurate wind call tough.
Really gets you on calmer days when there's no wind at the gun and a mysterious 1-2moa drift for no apparent reason.
Reading the wind on a nice fairly flat range is a whole lot easier than shooting in the hills or canyons.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jac74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ot. I felt at times yesterday that we were just spinning our wheels not really accompling anything. My main reasoning is when I shoot and miss and tried to make the proper adjustments the wind I was shooting in has changed to a differnt value from a different direction. Just looking for some input... </div></div>
Believe it or don't, if you were paying attention to what was going on when you were shooting and you made notes in your log book about what you observed, what worked, what didn't, what you were thinking, and how well what you were thinking jived with reality - you made real progress. You'll make even more if it rattles around in your head until you shoot again.
Secondly, usually - but not always, (esp if you are just In front of / or in a storm) wind runs on a cycle. Determining the characteristics of the cycle and being able to spot where you are in the cycle is a major advantage. On that note, while you can see the effect of wind on vegitation, IMHO the greatest advantage to that end is to be able to hear the wind. This is but one area where a can is an advantage.
Good luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jac74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ot. I felt at times yesterday that we were just spinning our wheels not really accompling anything. My main reasoning is when I shoot and miss and tried to make the proper adjustments the wind I was shooting in has changed to a differnt value from a different direction. Just looking for some input... </div></div>
Believe it or don't, if you were paying attention to what was going on when you were shooting and you made notes in your log book about what you observed, what worked, what didn't, what you were thinking, and how well what you were thinking jived with reality - you made real progress. You'll make even more if it rattles around in your head until you shoot again.
Secondly, usually - but not always, (esp if you are just In front of / or in a storm) wind runs on a cycle. Determining the characteristics of the cycle and being able to spot where you are in the cycle is a major advantage. On that note, while you can see the effect of wind on vegitation, IMHO the greatest advantage to that end is to be able to hear the wind. This is but one area where a can is an advantage.
Good luck
Re: Variable Wind
You had too much information. Next time get a spotting scope and turn the focus knob about 1/4 turn counter clock wise from target. The target will still be sharp enough; but, now you will see mid range mirage. It will indicate velocity and direction; plus, when using the spotting scope, you do not need to contemplate full or half value wind. Make favors based on this wind that you actually see at mid range. Generally, by favoring it's not too difficult to keep up with changing conditions and be able to shoot while a particular condition prevails.
You had too much information. Next time get a spotting scope and turn the focus knob about 1/4 turn counter clock wise from target. The target will still be sharp enough; but, now you will see mid range mirage. It will indicate velocity and direction; plus, when using the spotting scope, you do not need to contemplate full or half value wind. Make favors based on this wind that you actually see at mid range. Generally, by favoring it's not too difficult to keep up with changing conditions and be able to shoot while a particular condition prevails.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich</div></div>
Appraising wind value by its effects is O.K.; but, if you've got a spotting scope it becomes real easy to favor for what's actually out there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich</div></div>
Appraising wind value by its effects is O.K.; but, if you've got a spotting scope it becomes real easy to favor for what's actually out there.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jac74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yesterday me and a freind were shooting at the range in the most variable wind conditions I have ever shot in. 10-15 mph - not sustanded, from 6 oclock to 3-9 oclock and everything else in between. There were no lulls to speak of just a different varient from a different direction. We were not adjusting dope for the wind just the elevation, working on using the scopes hash marks for windage. My question: Is there a practical application for this type of shooting in such various wind conditions changing minute to minute - sometimes even shot to shot. I felt at times yesterday that we were just spinning our wheels not really accompling anything. My main reasoning is when I shoot and miss and tried to make the proper adjustments the wind I was shooting in has changed to a differnt value from a different direction. Just looking for some input... </div></div>
Sounds like we're neighbors jac. I'd say that it depends on where you shoot. Practically every range in N FL has a different "personality" or "prevailing" wind. Meaning that while it may change constantly there WILL be a pattern to some degree that you can capitalize on. People think its easy shooting here but its rare that the wind is steady, and intermittent/variable winds are common and extremely difficult to shoot in.
Best advice I can give you is to practice the hell out of calling your shots. This will help you see your splash when you miss and you will miss. I shoot at Bradford every weekend out to 850 and there are no steady winds there, plus your shooting in a tree-lined lane so in addition to the prevailing crosswind out of the 10 o'clock, you get a downdraft effect when it drops off the treetops into the lane.
Once I make my wind call I'll dial in only half of the correction I think I need for the strongest wind value. What this does is ensures that when the wind is blowing my rounds hit the right 1/3 of the plate. When it stops my rounds will hit the left 1/3. The end result is that all of my rounds will hit. Another plus to this method is that it reduces the amount I need to hold by 50% and I often only need only a slight "favor" one side or the other if wind strength increase beyond what I dialed or if wind starts/stops.
I won't tell you that this is the right way to deal with intermittent winds but I will say that its very effective from my experience shooting in N FL. Try to determnine winds aloft around 2/3 down range. For example shooting at 850 at Bradford its more important to determine winds at the treetops at around 600 yards, than it is to determine winds at your position or at the target when the round is "in the lane". This is not a hard/fast rule but remember...we're dealing trees which can steer the wind. When the wind is in my face at 12 o'clock, I know that there's a wind aloft from 10 oclock often at double the speed I feel at my position.
In the end there are almost no hard/fast rules other than learn terrain and its effect on the wind and learn the personality of the range...it has one even when the winds are swirling. Another tip is get a good set of binocs...they give you more of a 3D view verses the tunnel vision effect of a spotter and its easier to see subtle movement of things like trees, leaves, grass, etc.
All that and I pretty much second what everyone else has said.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jac74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yesterday me and a freind were shooting at the range in the most variable wind conditions I have ever shot in. 10-15 mph - not sustanded, from 6 oclock to 3-9 oclock and everything else in between. There were no lulls to speak of just a different varient from a different direction. We were not adjusting dope for the wind just the elevation, working on using the scopes hash marks for windage. My question: Is there a practical application for this type of shooting in such various wind conditions changing minute to minute - sometimes even shot to shot. I felt at times yesterday that we were just spinning our wheels not really accompling anything. My main reasoning is when I shoot and miss and tried to make the proper adjustments the wind I was shooting in has changed to a differnt value from a different direction. Just looking for some input... </div></div>
Sounds like we're neighbors jac. I'd say that it depends on where you shoot. Practically every range in N FL has a different "personality" or "prevailing" wind. Meaning that while it may change constantly there WILL be a pattern to some degree that you can capitalize on. People think its easy shooting here but its rare that the wind is steady, and intermittent/variable winds are common and extremely difficult to shoot in.
Best advice I can give you is to practice the hell out of calling your shots. This will help you see your splash when you miss and you will miss. I shoot at Bradford every weekend out to 850 and there are no steady winds there, plus your shooting in a tree-lined lane so in addition to the prevailing crosswind out of the 10 o'clock, you get a downdraft effect when it drops off the treetops into the lane.
Once I make my wind call I'll dial in only half of the correction I think I need for the strongest wind value. What this does is ensures that when the wind is blowing my rounds hit the right 1/3 of the plate. When it stops my rounds will hit the left 1/3. The end result is that all of my rounds will hit. Another plus to this method is that it reduces the amount I need to hold by 50% and I often only need only a slight "favor" one side or the other if wind strength increase beyond what I dialed or if wind starts/stops.
I won't tell you that this is the right way to deal with intermittent winds but I will say that its very effective from my experience shooting in N FL. Try to determnine winds aloft around 2/3 down range. For example shooting at 850 at Bradford its more important to determine winds at the treetops at around 600 yards, than it is to determine winds at your position or at the target when the round is "in the lane". This is not a hard/fast rule but remember...we're dealing trees which can steer the wind. When the wind is in my face at 12 o'clock, I know that there's a wind aloft from 10 oclock often at double the speed I feel at my position.
In the end there are almost no hard/fast rules other than learn terrain and its effect on the wind and learn the personality of the range...it has one even when the winds are swirling. Another tip is get a good set of binocs...they give you more of a 3D view verses the tunnel vision effect of a spotter and its easier to see subtle movement of things like trees, leaves, grass, etc.
All that and I pretty much second what everyone else has said.
Re: Variable Wind
Why not just get a spotting scope to see mirage, then, you won't need to resort to tricks, like the one you suggested, which assures less than the best results, instead you'd have good hits for every shot. For NRA LR your technique would not be useful at all.
Why not just get a spotting scope to see mirage, then, you won't need to resort to tricks, like the one you suggested, which assures less than the best results, instead you'd have good hits for every shot. For NRA LR your technique would not be useful at all.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just get a spotting scope to see mirage, then, you won't need to resort to tricks, like the one you suggested, which assures less than the best results, instead you'd have good hits for every shot. For NRA LR your technique would not be useful at all. </div></div>
Because we don't all have Sterling Shooter or Lowlight level skills (yet) and you have to start somewhere. If there was a one-sized-fits all approach to dealing with wind we'd all be champions. A "technique" that you promote is just that, a technique which may not work for everyone or work at every range. I'm not promoting gospel here....school me then...I'm all ears my friend.
As for mirage...its worthless when its not there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just get a spotting scope to see mirage, then, you won't need to resort to tricks, like the one you suggested, which assures less than the best results, instead you'd have good hits for every shot. For NRA LR your technique would not be useful at all. </div></div>
Because we don't all have Sterling Shooter or Lowlight level skills (yet) and you have to start somewhere. If there was a one-sized-fits all approach to dealing with wind we'd all be champions. A "technique" that you promote is just that, a technique which may not work for everyone or work at every range. I'm not promoting gospel here....school me then...I'm all ears my friend.
As for mirage...its worthless when its not there.
Re: Variable Wind
All I can add is that you don't learn how to shoot the wind by staying home when things get genuinely breezy. Nobody can teach someone else how to swim by telling them about it. You have to dive in, get wet, and work at it until it makes good sense.
With mirage, I'm at the point that when I see it, I take it on principle that today is just bound to be another 'learning day'.
The most encouraging thing I can say is that with experience, it can get a lot better.
Greg
All I can add is that you don't learn how to shoot the wind by staying home when things get genuinely breezy. Nobody can teach someone else how to swim by telling them about it. You have to dive in, get wet, and work at it until it makes good sense.
With mirage, I'm at the point that when I see it, I take it on principle that today is just bound to be another 'learning day'.
The most encouraging thing I can say is that with experience, it can get a lot better.
Greg
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I can add is that you don't learn how to shoot the wind by staying home when things get genuinely breezy. Nobody can teach someone else how to swim by telling them about it. You have to dive in, get wet, and work at it until it makes good sense.
With mirage, I'm at the point that when I see it, I take it on principle that today is just bound to be another 'learning day'.
The most encouraging thing I can say is that with experience, it can get a lot better.
Greg </div></div>
Best advice here. Shoot and learn and be careful not to buy into any one technique...sometimes it takes different aproaches depending on what you're doing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I can add is that you don't learn how to shoot the wind by staying home when things get genuinely breezy. Nobody can teach someone else how to swim by telling them about it. You have to dive in, get wet, and work at it until it makes good sense.
With mirage, I'm at the point that when I see it, I take it on principle that today is just bound to be another 'learning day'.
The most encouraging thing I can say is that with experience, it can get a lot better.
Greg </div></div>
Best advice here. Shoot and learn and be careful not to buy into any one technique...sometimes it takes different aproaches depending on what you're doing.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just get a spotting scope to see mirage, then, you won't need to resort to tricks, like the one you suggested, which assures less than the best results, instead you'd have good hits for every shot. For NRA LR your technique would not be useful at all. </div></div>
Because we don't all have Sterling Shooter or Lowlight level skills (yet) and you have to start somewhere. If there was a one-sized-fits all approach to dealing with wind we'd all be champions. A "technique" that you promote is just that, a technique which may not work for everyone or work at every range. I'm not promoting gospel here....school me then...I'm all ears my friend.
As for mirage...its worthless when its not there.</div></div>
The proper start is to understand the the effects of wind, that's to say, what it looks and feels like. For example, if it's raising dust and moving loose paper wind is in the range of 8 to 12 MPH. Other effects can be used to measure wind up to about 15 MPH. But the preferred method of wind estimation is using optics to see mirage. Instead of using your own notions you might want to try out the methods that champions use. I doubt you will however. You seem more interested in proving you can shoot rather than learning how to shoot. At any rate, your technique is nonsense. It promotes error in volume on the promise the wind might change during a string of fire where any change would still assure a hit. A shooter taking this advice would get better hits just chasing his spotter. One thing for sure, expressing your notions about how you do it reveals you don't know how to do it. You'd be wise to listen to those who indeed know how to do it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just get a spotting scope to see mirage, then, you won't need to resort to tricks, like the one you suggested, which assures less than the best results, instead you'd have good hits for every shot. For NRA LR your technique would not be useful at all. </div></div>
Because we don't all have Sterling Shooter or Lowlight level skills (yet) and you have to start somewhere. If there was a one-sized-fits all approach to dealing with wind we'd all be champions. A "technique" that you promote is just that, a technique which may not work for everyone or work at every range. I'm not promoting gospel here....school me then...I'm all ears my friend.
As for mirage...its worthless when its not there.</div></div>
The proper start is to understand the the effects of wind, that's to say, what it looks and feels like. For example, if it's raising dust and moving loose paper wind is in the range of 8 to 12 MPH. Other effects can be used to measure wind up to about 15 MPH. But the preferred method of wind estimation is using optics to see mirage. Instead of using your own notions you might want to try out the methods that champions use. I doubt you will however. You seem more interested in proving you can shoot rather than learning how to shoot. At any rate, your technique is nonsense. It promotes error in volume on the promise the wind might change during a string of fire where any change would still assure a hit. A shooter taking this advice would get better hits just chasing his spotter. One thing for sure, expressing your notions about how you do it reveals you don't know how to do it. You'd be wise to listen to those who indeed know how to do it.
Re: Variable Wind
I do not know him personally, but if someone is doubting Sterling Shooter's advice, just look up what it takes to earn these levels and you'll change your opinion.
NRA LR High Master
Distinguished Rifleman
And yes, we all had to start somewhere, but a big part of that was usually getting advice from better shooters at higher levels of expertise.
I do not know him personally, but if someone is doubting Sterling Shooter's advice, just look up what it takes to earn these levels and you'll change your opinion.
NRA LR High Master
Distinguished Rifleman
And yes, we all had to start somewhere, but a big part of that was usually getting advice from better shooters at higher levels of expertise.
Re: Variable Wind
What do you do Sterling Shooter when your in open grassy land land without flags , no mirage , no paper or dust blowing around on a range with multiple entry point of wind and low hills to boot .This is when your multiple wind reading shills come into question as you must also know the effects of wind on land contour , trees and grass .
I have a competition next month out to 1100 yards where the wind might come from what appears to be 9pm but also straight up my arse 6pm through the enterance of the valley were in for a good few hundred yards and then changes again out toward the end of the valley as the hills turn into the lower part of a saddle -no flags -no mirage in the morning -really hard for a first round hit and certainly luck on my behalf more than math if I achieve that hit at 1km. I have read Jim Owens book"Reading the Wind and Coaching Techniques" I was going to bring it today to work as I am sure he says he doesnt judge wind speed per se' with mirage only wind changes in pressure on a trevelling projectiles path for his scope correction .
One can only apply ones technique and hope for a good out come or if ones tecnique was perfect one would constantly be world champ wouldnt one lol
What do you do Sterling Shooter when your in open grassy land land without flags , no mirage , no paper or dust blowing around on a range with multiple entry point of wind and low hills to boot .This is when your multiple wind reading shills come into question as you must also know the effects of wind on land contour , trees and grass .
I have a competition next month out to 1100 yards where the wind might come from what appears to be 9pm but also straight up my arse 6pm through the enterance of the valley were in for a good few hundred yards and then changes again out toward the end of the valley as the hills turn into the lower part of a saddle -no flags -no mirage in the morning -really hard for a first round hit and certainly luck on my behalf more than math if I achieve that hit at 1km. I have read Jim Owens book"Reading the Wind and Coaching Techniques" I was going to bring it today to work as I am sure he says he doesnt judge wind speed per se' with mirage only wind changes in pressure on a trevelling projectiles path for his scope correction .
One can only apply ones technique and hope for a good out come or if ones tecnique was perfect one would constantly be world champ wouldnt one lol
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instead of using your own notions you might want to try out the methods that champions use. I doubt you will however. You seem more interested in proving you can shoot rather than learning how to shoot. At any rate, your technique is nonsense. It promotes error in volume on the promise the wind might change during a string of fire where any change would still assure a hit. A shooter taking this advice would get better hits just chasing his spotter. One thing for sure, expressing your notions about how you do it reveals you don't know how to do it. You'd be wise to listen to those who indeed know how to do it. </div></div>
You know Sterling...you are one of a select few that I actually so listen to. I know the dedication it takes to hone a skill to perfection as you did. However your comments cross a line with me and I may be done listening. I don't know what I said that you perceived to be an attack but I can assure you that I did no such thing. You attacked me.
Maybe you don't like me (how can I possibly go on...get in line
Maybe you didn't get your morning coffee...couldn't say. I merely offered to the OP a method or technique that works in many situations that I face but of course that's nonsense to you.
As nonsensical as the apples to oranges comparison of trying to hit an approximately 6'x6' target with a dot the size of a dishwasher verses an 18" plate that may be difficult to see?
As nonsensical as the notion that mirage can always be seen? Paper will always blowing?
Jeez dude where do you get off leaping on me like that?
I need to prove that I can shoot? Are you freakin' kidding me? Why? Because I post my targets after a good day at the range? Show off my guns? Give advice when I feel I have some to offer? Hell...that describes several thousand of us, or more importantly several thousand of <span style="text-decoration: underline">your potential clients</span>. Gee...where can we sign up for one of your classes so we can learn through insult?
This is a tactical <span style="font-style: italic">leaning</span> site. We don't always shoot BIG targets and you can't always do the things you propose. PERIOD! It doesn't work that way. We don't have someone working the pits to mark our targets and we don't always have someone to spot for us. We often have to make due and experiment. I won't pretend to be an expert Sterling and in the grand scheme of things I'm a newcomer and still learning, but this isn't something I merely talk about...its something I do and I do it passionately and whether or not you approve of my methods is meaningless.
You and I aren't so different except in one regard...I've yet to reach the point in my life where I think I'm too special to learn something from a rookie.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instead of using your own notions you might want to try out the methods that champions use. I doubt you will however. You seem more interested in proving you can shoot rather than learning how to shoot. At any rate, your technique is nonsense. It promotes error in volume on the promise the wind might change during a string of fire where any change would still assure a hit. A shooter taking this advice would get better hits just chasing his spotter. One thing for sure, expressing your notions about how you do it reveals you don't know how to do it. You'd be wise to listen to those who indeed know how to do it. </div></div>
You know Sterling...you are one of a select few that I actually so listen to. I know the dedication it takes to hone a skill to perfection as you did. However your comments cross a line with me and I may be done listening. I don't know what I said that you perceived to be an attack but I can assure you that I did no such thing. You attacked me.
Maybe you don't like me (how can I possibly go on...get in line
Maybe you didn't get your morning coffee...couldn't say. I merely offered to the OP a method or technique that works in many situations that I face but of course that's nonsense to you.As nonsensical as the apples to oranges comparison of trying to hit an approximately 6'x6' target with a dot the size of a dishwasher verses an 18" plate that may be difficult to see?
As nonsensical as the notion that mirage can always be seen? Paper will always blowing?
Jeez dude where do you get off leaping on me like that?
I need to prove that I can shoot? Are you freakin' kidding me? Why? Because I post my targets after a good day at the range? Show off my guns? Give advice when I feel I have some to offer? Hell...that describes several thousand of us, or more importantly several thousand of <span style="text-decoration: underline">your potential clients</span>. Gee...where can we sign up for one of your classes so we can learn through insult?
This is a tactical <span style="font-style: italic">leaning</span> site. We don't always shoot BIG targets and you can't always do the things you propose. PERIOD! It doesn't work that way. We don't have someone working the pits to mark our targets and we don't always have someone to spot for us. We often have to make due and experiment. I won't pretend to be an expert Sterling and in the grand scheme of things I'm a newcomer and still learning, but this isn't something I merely talk about...its something I do and I do it passionately and whether or not you approve of my methods is meaningless.
You and I aren't so different except in one regard...I've yet to reach the point in my life where I think I'm too special to learn something from a rookie.
Re: Variable Wind
I think a shooter can only apply all the basics he or she knows to correct for wind but from there it is one experiance that takes over to say what is actually going to happen on a course of fire -"EXPERIENCE "cannot be bought but learned -well I suppose Lowlight is selling experience at the moment with the online training so to a degree it can ne bought LOL
I think a shooter can only apply all the basics he or she knows to correct for wind but from there it is one experiance that takes over to say what is actually going to happen on a course of fire -"EXPERIENCE "cannot be bought but learned -well I suppose Lowlight is selling experience at the moment with the online training so to a degree it can ne bought LOL
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One can only apply ones technique and hope for a good out come or if ones tecnique was perfect one would constantly be world champ wouldnt one lol
</div></div>
That statement is just plain stupid. But, in NRA LR there are indeed a few shooters who win most of the time, like David Tubb.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One can only apply ones technique and hope for a good out come or if ones tecnique was perfect one would constantly be world champ wouldnt one lol
</div></div>
That statement is just plain stupid. But, in NRA LR there are indeed a few shooters who win most of the time, like David Tubb.
Re: Variable Wind
Its rare I say stupid things and this isnt one of them .Sterling shooter , it just goes to say your technique has holes and you are it other wise you couldnt be beat now could you .There is always a bit of luck in judging things that you cant see perfectly like wind
Its rare I say stupid things and this isnt one of them .Sterling shooter , it just goes to say your technique has holes and you are it other wise you couldnt be beat now could you .There is always a bit of luck in judging things that you cant see perfectly like wind
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But, in NRA LR there are a few shooter who do indeed win most of the time, like David Tubb. </div></div>
And dont forget Sherri Galagher and Brandon Green on the United States Army Marksmanship Unit. Or Mid Tompkins.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But, in NRA LR there are a few shooter who do indeed win most of the time, like David Tubb. </div></div>
And dont forget Sherri Galagher and Brandon Green on the United States Army Marksmanship Unit. Or Mid Tompkins.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich</div></div>
Appraising wind value by its effects is O.K.; but, if you've got a spotting scope it becomes real easy to favor for what's actually out there. </div></div>
I have a spotting scope. I typically shoot alone, so it stays at home. My rifle scope works just as well. I'm aware of your pension for the mirage method of assigning value to wind. I try many methods as I try to improve. Here is a question regarding your method of choice... If you focus on mid range, are you not inducing parallax with regard to a now out of focus target?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich</div></div>
Appraising wind value by its effects is O.K.; but, if you've got a spotting scope it becomes real easy to favor for what's actually out there. </div></div>
I have a spotting scope. I typically shoot alone, so it stays at home. My rifle scope works just as well. I'm aware of your pension for the mirage method of assigning value to wind. I try many methods as I try to improve. Here is a question regarding your method of choice... If you focus on mid range, are you not inducing parallax with regard to a now out of focus target?
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich</div></div>
Appraising wind value by its effects is O.K.; but, if you've got a spotting scope it becomes real easy to favor for what's actually out there. </div></div>
I have a spotting scope. I typically shoot alone, so it stays at home. My rifle scope works just as well. I'm aware of your pension for the mirage method of assigning value to wind. I try many methods as I try to improve. Here is a question regarding your method of choice... If you focus on mid range, are you not inducing parallax with regard to a now out of focus target? </div></div>
The preferred method to view mirage is with the spotting scope. And, shooting alone does not preclude the spotting scope's use. I use a scope with an angled eyepiece. It's an EER type with 27 power. The scope is mounted to a scope stand which allows me to use the scope comfortably from the prone position.
Any meaningful solo rifle practice demands a spotting scope. It is an aid to shooter/target analysis. With my 27 power eyepiece I can easily discern 22 caliber bullet holes on the MR-31 target which is my primary practice target. Practicing for 1000 yards, I will trim these targets to about 4.4 inches in diameter. At one hundred yards I strive for zero dispersion with irons and sling support. Calling my shots and plotting strikes, which is made possible with the spotting scope, helps me to diagnose errors. In LR match conditions, while shooting, the scope is primarily an aid to keeping up with wind changes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the real world... most places I shoot the winds change from shot to shot, which is why many people advocate you "hold" for wind rather than dialing because of the time it takes between the changes to adjust the windage.
Usually there is a base line wind to work off of... you get that number in your head and then just favor the changes as you see them.
Wind happens, and not much you can do but practice ... as your experience grows you'll find the changes may not have as big an effect as you think. </div></div>
Listen to this guy as he's telling you something you could take as gospel or spend hours and hours figuring it out for yourself.
Proper natural point of aim and follow through will let you see your shot, be it hit or miss. That will allow you to run the bolt and follow up the first shot with a hit.
If you try to account for every mph of wind change you will lose your mind. Either by feel or with a wind meter figure out what the wind is doing most often. Look for an average. Dope your shots based on that, then as Lowlight said, favor a bit more or less as you feel the wind pick up and die down from that average.
You will start to get a feel for how much of a change needs how much of a shift in the favor you are giving your shots. You will also learn that holding for your shots is much more efficient and quick to adjust for the changes than trying to dial every shift of the wind.
Rich</div></div>
Appraising wind value by its effects is O.K.; but, if you've got a spotting scope it becomes real easy to favor for what's actually out there. </div></div>
I have a spotting scope. I typically shoot alone, so it stays at home. My rifle scope works just as well. I'm aware of your pension for the mirage method of assigning value to wind. I try many methods as I try to improve. Here is a question regarding your method of choice... If you focus on mid range, are you not inducing parallax with regard to a now out of focus target? </div></div>
The preferred method to view mirage is with the spotting scope. And, shooting alone does not preclude the spotting scope's use. I use a scope with an angled eyepiece. It's an EER type with 27 power. The scope is mounted to a scope stand which allows me to use the scope comfortably from the prone position.
Any meaningful solo rifle practice demands a spotting scope. It is an aid to shooter/target analysis. With my 27 power eyepiece I can easily discern 22 caliber bullet holes on the MR-31 target which is my primary practice target. Practicing for 1000 yards, I will trim these targets to about 4.4 inches in diameter. At one hundred yards I strive for zero dispersion with irons and sling support. Calling my shots and plotting strikes, which is made possible with the spotting scope, helps me to diagnose errors. In LR match conditions, while shooting, the scope is primarily an aid to keeping up with wind changes.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The preferred method to view mirage is with the spotting scope. And, shooting alone does not preclude the spotting scope's use. I use a scope with an angled eyepiece. It's an EER type with 27 power. The scope is mounted to a scope stand which allows me to use the scope comfortably from the prone position.
Any meaningful solo rifle practice demands a spotting scope. It is an aid to shooter/target analysis. With my 27 power eyepiece I can easily discern 22 caliber bullet holes on the MR-31 target which is my primary practice target. Practicing for 1000 yards, I will trim these targets to about 4.4 inches in diameter. At one hundred yards I strive for zero dispersion with irons and sling support. Calling my shots and plotting strikes, which is made possible with the spotting scope, helps me to diagnose errors. In LR match conditions, while shooting, the scope is primarily an aid to keeping up with wind changes. </div></div>
So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? If you say so. I never said shooting alone precluded the use of a scope. I said I don't bring it because I don't see the need when shooting alone. I can see my hits and my misses just fine through the rifle optic. You harp on midrange mirage like it's the only thing that works. That's clearly not the case because many have success with other methods. Don't be so quick to dismiss other techniques.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The preferred method to view mirage is with the spotting scope. And, shooting alone does not preclude the spotting scope's use. I use a scope with an angled eyepiece. It's an EER type with 27 power. The scope is mounted to a scope stand which allows me to use the scope comfortably from the prone position.
Any meaningful solo rifle practice demands a spotting scope. It is an aid to shooter/target analysis. With my 27 power eyepiece I can easily discern 22 caliber bullet holes on the MR-31 target which is my primary practice target. Practicing for 1000 yards, I will trim these targets to about 4.4 inches in diameter. At one hundred yards I strive for zero dispersion with irons and sling support. Calling my shots and plotting strikes, which is made possible with the spotting scope, helps me to diagnose errors. In LR match conditions, while shooting, the scope is primarily an aid to keeping up with wind changes. </div></div>
So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? If you say so. I never said shooting alone precluded the use of a scope. I said I don't bring it because I don't see the need when shooting alone. I can see my hits and my misses just fine through the rifle optic. You harp on midrange mirage like it's the only thing that works. That's clearly not the case because many have success with other methods. Don't be so quick to dismiss other techniques.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? </div></div>Not only is it not practical to use one at times but I've shot in matches where its simply not possible and binoculars make far more sense and are actually more useful. There's a <span style="font-size: 14pt">HUGE</span> difference between a venue where you have a wheeled cart complete with built-in chair, umbrella, spotter mount, beer cooler, etc., and one where you have to hump your gear through the woods between stages on your back while dodging rattlers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? </div></div>Not only is it not practical to use one at times but I've shot in matches where its simply not possible and binoculars make far more sense and are actually more useful. There's a <span style="font-size: 14pt">HUGE</span> difference between a venue where you have a wheeled cart complete with built-in chair, umbrella, spotter mount, beer cooler, etc., and one where you have to hump your gear through the woods between stages on your back while dodging rattlers.
Re: Variable Wind
I know your frustration firsthand. First, don't be a fair weather shooter. I have found it helps to have targets at stepped ranges, say 200, 300, and 400 yards and further. Steel targets are best as you will see impact dust and have another wind indicator down range. I will hold right on the 200 yard target and use it to measure the wind drift. I note the POA/POI and compare it to my calculated wind hold. Then step out to the next target with a calculated wind hold based on your first shot and note the POA/POI. Use each shot to plan your next shot. With variable wind conditions it becomes a guessing game and the best guesser wins. The key is practice which leads to better guessing.
I know your frustration firsthand. First, don't be a fair weather shooter. I have found it helps to have targets at stepped ranges, say 200, 300, and 400 yards and further. Steel targets are best as you will see impact dust and have another wind indicator down range. I will hold right on the 200 yard target and use it to measure the wind drift. I note the POA/POI and compare it to my calculated wind hold. Then step out to the next target with a calculated wind hold based on your first shot and note the POA/POI. Use each shot to plan your next shot. With variable wind conditions it becomes a guessing game and the best guesser wins. The key is practice which leads to better guessing.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? </div></div>Not only is it not practical to use one at times but I've shot in matches where its simply not possible and binoculars make far more sense and are actually more useful. There's a <span style="font-size: 14pt">HUGE</span> difference between a venue where you have a wheeled cart complete with built-in chair, umbrella, spotter mount, beer cooler, etc., and one where you have to hump your gear through the woods between stages on your back while dodging rattlers. </div></div>
Excellent point. If you shoot a square range every time bringing a scope may be worthwhile. I plan on attending field matches this year where "the preferred method " won't be practical. Hence my question regarding mid range mirage through the rifle optic. Instead of a reply, I get the dismissive, "that's not the preferred method and therefore not a meaningful technique. "
I think a good shooter I'd a well rounded one, who tries any suggestion and sees if it works for them and if it's worth adding to the toolbox.
Rich
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? </div></div>Not only is it not practical to use one at times but I've shot in matches where its simply not possible and binoculars make far more sense and are actually more useful. There's a <span style="font-size: 14pt">HUGE</span> difference between a venue where you have a wheeled cart complete with built-in chair, umbrella, spotter mount, beer cooler, etc., and one where you have to hump your gear through the woods between stages on your back while dodging rattlers. </div></div>
Excellent point. If you shoot a square range every time bringing a scope may be worthwhile. I plan on attending field matches this year where "the preferred method " won't be practical. Hence my question regarding mid range mirage through the rifle optic. Instead of a reply, I get the dismissive, "that's not the preferred method and therefore not a meaningful technique. "
I think a good shooter I'd a well rounded one, who tries any suggestion and sees if it works for them and if it's worth adding to the toolbox.
Rich
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent point. If you shoot a square range every time bringing a scope may be worthwhile. I plan on attending field matches this year where "the preferred method " won't be practical. Hence my question regarding mid range mirage through the rifle optic. Instead of a reply, I get the dismissive, "that's not the preferred method and therefore not a meaningful technique. "
I think a good shooter I'd a well rounded one, who tries any suggestion and sees if it works for them and if it's worth adding to the toolbox.
Rich </div></div>
To your specific question, sure a spotter is best but if you can't use one during a match it almost doesn't make sense to train with one. Problem with using your rifle scope mid-range is that if there's no mirage you'd have to disturb the rifle from its position to look up at the treetops (when there are trees)...thus the beauty of binoculars. You can keep them within arms length and rapidly transition to different areas with them and some of the newer ones are phenominal. I have a set of Leupolds with a TMR reticle that give a 3D high-def view that has to be seen to be believed.
Like many that pursue this, I bought into a lot of what some preach as gospel only to find out in a practical sense that it doesn't work in all situations. Trying some of my own ideas is what's allowed me to progress and solve problems. If I try something and it doesn't work for me I don't use it, regardless of what some genius says. You'd be amazed at what you learn just by watching new guys...some of them will virtually stumble on to something that may benefit you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent point. If you shoot a square range every time bringing a scope may be worthwhile. I plan on attending field matches this year where "the preferred method " won't be practical. Hence my question regarding mid range mirage through the rifle optic. Instead of a reply, I get the dismissive, "that's not the preferred method and therefore not a meaningful technique. "
I think a good shooter I'd a well rounded one, who tries any suggestion and sees if it works for them and if it's worth adding to the toolbox.
Rich </div></div>
To your specific question, sure a spotter is best but if you can't use one during a match it almost doesn't make sense to train with one. Problem with using your rifle scope mid-range is that if there's no mirage you'd have to disturb the rifle from its position to look up at the treetops (when there are trees)...thus the beauty of binoculars. You can keep them within arms length and rapidly transition to different areas with them and some of the newer ones are phenominal. I have a set of Leupolds with a TMR reticle that give a 3D high-def view that has to be seen to be believed.
Like many that pursue this, I bought into a lot of what some preach as gospel only to find out in a practical sense that it doesn't work in all situations. Trying some of my own ideas is what's allowed me to progress and solve problems. If I try something and it doesn't work for me I don't use it, regardless of what some genius says. You'd be amazed at what you learn just by watching new guys...some of them will virtually stumble on to something that may benefit you.
Re: Variable Wind
Whilst I agree with you I do think it is rare one cannot find space in a day bag for a spotting scope .The midd range mirage is a great indicator mixed with what you already know about the wind from you shooting position.
One finds what works for themselves but the tried and true methods that both Lowlight and Stirlingshooter administer are just that tried and true ,but not to say there are not others factors also!
One point I tried to make to SS is that there is a bit of luck in the mix aswell on your wind calls , its not a precise thing making wind calls period especially when not shooting on a flagged range that has dust and rubbish blowing around it .
Whilst I agree with you I do think it is rare one cannot find space in a day bag for a spotting scope .The midd range mirage is a great indicator mixed with what you already know about the wind from you shooting position.
One finds what works for themselves but the tried and true methods that both Lowlight and Stirlingshooter administer are just that tried and true ,but not to say there are not others factors also!
One point I tried to make to SS is that there is a bit of luck in the mix aswell on your wind calls , its not a precise thing making wind calls period especially when not shooting on a flagged range that has dust and rubbish blowing around it .
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do think it is rare one cannot find space in a day bag for a spotting scope </div></div>
Absolutely true BUT many tactical matches are timed and you litteraly drop into position and start shooting. You have no time for set-up and spotter is not an option. This is why its beneficial to train without one. I always carry my spotter...I can't always use it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do think it is rare one cannot find space in a day bag for a spotting scope </div></div>
Absolutely true BUT many tactical matches are timed and you litteraly drop into position and start shooting. You have no time for set-up and spotter is not an option. This is why its beneficial to train without one. I always carry my spotter...I can't always use it.
Re: Variable Wind
Point taken ! I think Stirling Shooter often is talking about range matches where the beer chair can be -correct me if I am wrong Stirling?
Point taken ! I think Stirling Shooter often is talking about range matches where the beer chair can be -correct me if I am wrong Stirling?
Re: Variable Wind
You use what resources are at hand for what ever you're doing. If learning LR and wind is what your practice is all about, then, to not use the spotting scope is to make your time less productive.
You use what resources are at hand for what ever you're doing. If learning LR and wind is what your practice is all about, then, to not use the spotting scope is to make your time less productive.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The preferred method to view mirage is with the spotting scope. And, shooting alone does not preclude the spotting scope's use. I use a scope with an angled eyepiece. It's an EER type with 27 power. The scope is mounted to a scope stand which allows me to use the scope comfortably from the prone position.
Any meaningful solo rifle practice demands a spotting scope. It is an aid to shooter/target analysis. With my 27 power eyepiece I can easily discern 22 caliber bullet holes on the MR-31 target which is my primary practice target. Practicing for 1000 yards, I will trim these targets to about 4.4 inches in diameter. At one hundred yards I strive for zero dispersion with irons and sling support. Calling my shots and plotting strikes, which is made possible with the spotting scope, helps me to diagnose errors. In LR match conditions, while shooting, the scope is primarily an aid to keeping up with wind changes. </div></div>
So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? If you say so. I never said shooting alone precluded the use of a scope. I said I don't bring it because I don't see the need when shooting alone. I can see my hits and my misses just fine through the rifle optic. You harp on midrange mirage like it's the only thing that works. That's clearly not the case because many have success with other methods. Don't be so quick to dismiss other techniques. </div></div>
Don't be silly. Reading mirage is the preferred method of wind estimation. The spotting scope is essential to any who want to develop all their resources.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The preferred method to view mirage is with the spotting scope. And, shooting alone does not preclude the spotting scope's use. I use a scope with an angled eyepiece. It's an EER type with 27 power. The scope is mounted to a scope stand which allows me to use the scope comfortably from the prone position.
Any meaningful solo rifle practice demands a spotting scope. It is an aid to shooter/target analysis. With my 27 power eyepiece I can easily discern 22 caliber bullet holes on the MR-31 target which is my primary practice target. Practicing for 1000 yards, I will trim these targets to about 4.4 inches in diameter. At one hundred yards I strive for zero dispersion with irons and sling support. Calling my shots and plotting strikes, which is made possible with the spotting scope, helps me to diagnose errors. In LR match conditions, while shooting, the scope is primarily an aid to keeping up with wind changes. </div></div>
So any practice done without a spotting scope isn't meaningful? If you say so. I never said shooting alone precluded the use of a scope. I said I don't bring it because I don't see the need when shooting alone. I can see my hits and my misses just fine through the rifle optic. You harp on midrange mirage like it's the only thing that works. That's clearly not the case because many have success with other methods. Don't be so quick to dismiss other techniques. </div></div>
Don't be silly. Reading mirage is the preferred method of wind estimation. The spotting scope is essential to any who want to develop all their resources.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like many that pursue this, I bought into a lot of what some preach as gospel only to find out in a practical sense that it doesn't work in all situations. Trying some of my own ideas is what's allowed me to progress and solve problems. If I try something and it doesn't work for me I don't use it, regardless of what some genius says. You'd be amazed at what you learn just by watching new guys...some of them will virtually stumble on to something that may benefit you.</div></div>
A wise shooter will get training from someone who actually knows how to do it. There is no benefit to the blind leading the blind, except perhaps for someone who gets his kicks observing the farce. I watch winners not losers.
One more thing, a new shooter who abandons what is not working may be abandoning what is simply unnatural. For example, a correct postition may be initally unnatural. This is why a highly qualified mentor/coach can help folks off to a good start. Those who go it alone may chase their tails.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like many that pursue this, I bought into a lot of what some preach as gospel only to find out in a practical sense that it doesn't work in all situations. Trying some of my own ideas is what's allowed me to progress and solve problems. If I try something and it doesn't work for me I don't use it, regardless of what some genius says. You'd be amazed at what you learn just by watching new guys...some of them will virtually stumble on to something that may benefit you.</div></div>
A wise shooter will get training from someone who actually knows how to do it. There is no benefit to the blind leading the blind, except perhaps for someone who gets his kicks observing the farce. I watch winners not losers.
One more thing, a new shooter who abandons what is not working may be abandoning what is simply unnatural. For example, a correct postition may be initally unnatural. This is why a highly qualified mentor/coach can help folks off to a good start. Those who go it alone may chase their tails.
Re: Variable Wind
We have established the process to look for wind but what would be great to hear from Sterling shooter or Lowlight or any other shooter with a vast experiance on how he handles variable winds especially over a long course and by that I dont mean just a club range but on the free range where typography is different from place to place .What typography factors he looks for that will cause change and how to recognize those changes -this is where it really gets interesting and I do not have the experience to give a great insight on these factors .
We have established the process to look for wind but what would be great to hear from Sterling shooter or Lowlight or any other shooter with a vast experiance on how he handles variable winds especially over a long course and by that I dont mean just a club range but on the free range where typography is different from place to place .What typography factors he looks for that will cause change and how to recognize those changes -this is where it really gets interesting and I do not have the experience to give a great insight on these factors .
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A wise shooter will get training from someone who actually knows how to do it. There is no benefit to the blind leading the blind, except perhaps for someone who gets his kicks observing the farce. I watch winners not losers.
One more thing, a new shooter who abandons what is not working may be abandoning what is simply unnatural. For example, a correct postition may be initally unnatural. This is why a highly qualified mentor/coach can help folks off to a good start. Those who go it alone may chase their tails. </div></div>
And they do get training. Lots of it. From reputable organizations such as Trace Armory, Rifles Only, K&M, and right here on SH. The caveat here is that most are looking for a teacher or instructor, not a lecturer …a distinct difference you’d be wise to grasp.
It is good advice though, some you may wish to consider yourself. After all things have changed (equipment, methods, etc) since you and the flintlock have retired. There are many training agencies previously mentioned that could bring you up to speed
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A wise shooter will get training from someone who actually knows how to do it. There is no benefit to the blind leading the blind, except perhaps for someone who gets his kicks observing the farce. I watch winners not losers.
One more thing, a new shooter who abandons what is not working may be abandoning what is simply unnatural. For example, a correct postition may be initally unnatural. This is why a highly qualified mentor/coach can help folks off to a good start. Those who go it alone may chase their tails. </div></div>
And they do get training. Lots of it. From reputable organizations such as Trace Armory, Rifles Only, K&M, and right here on SH. The caveat here is that most are looking for a teacher or instructor, not a lecturer …a distinct difference you’d be wise to grasp.
It is good advice though, some you may wish to consider yourself. After all things have changed (equipment, methods, etc) since you and the flintlock have retired. There are many training agencies previously mentioned that could bring you up to speed
Re: Variable Wind
I think you are a straight shooter Dave and no idiot after reading your bio below -I dont thinkl your trying to put shit on SterlingShooter as it may appear but just reminding an ol hand to be more diplomatic and thoughtful in his ways of teaching others
bio respecfully deleted
I think you are a straight shooter Dave and no idiot after reading your bio below -I dont thinkl your trying to put shit on SterlingShooter as it may appear but just reminding an ol hand to be more diplomatic and thoughtful in his ways of teaching others
bio respecfully deleted
Re: Variable Wind
Well I appreciate the kind words but I don't really need my bio posted. Its on my website because I conduct business in a military town and in my line of work trust is everything.
That said I'm no saint and I can be an arrogant prick but my exchanges with Sterling are rather harmless. Having spent decades evaluating instructors, their methods are a bit of a pet peeve of mine and I'll usually jump in the water if someone ripples my pond. I just don't like instructors that lecture. A lecture is a one way flow of information. While fine when you have 10 weeks to prepare an 18 year old for battle it has little value outside that venue.
Teaching involves a 2-way flow of information whereas lecturing is a one-way "mywayorthehighway" approach. I've taught courses with attrition rates approaching 70%, second only to Nuke power and SEALS and there's a time and a place for that mentality. That place is not here. I've likely learned more from my students than I've learned from any instructor I've ever had.
An instructor that assumes that a student has learned merely because he has spoken is ineffective at best, and being an expert at something doesn't make you a good teacher.
I find it a bit humorous that someone trying to learn understands everything I just said but many instructors do not. Either way...people can market their abilities any way they choose, just as their intended audience can block them out. After awhile they start to sound like Charlie Brown's teacher.
Well I appreciate the kind words but I don't really need my bio posted. Its on my website because I conduct business in a military town and in my line of work trust is everything.
That said I'm no saint and I can be an arrogant prick but my exchanges with Sterling are rather harmless. Having spent decades evaluating instructors, their methods are a bit of a pet peeve of mine and I'll usually jump in the water if someone ripples my pond. I just don't like instructors that lecture. A lecture is a one way flow of information. While fine when you have 10 weeks to prepare an 18 year old for battle it has little value outside that venue.
Teaching involves a 2-way flow of information whereas lecturing is a one-way "mywayorthehighway" approach. I've taught courses with attrition rates approaching 70%, second only to Nuke power and SEALS and there's a time and a place for that mentality. That place is not here. I've likely learned more from my students than I've learned from any instructor I've ever had.
An instructor that assumes that a student has learned merely because he has spoken is ineffective at best, and being an expert at something doesn't make you a good teacher.
I find it a bit humorous that someone trying to learn understands everything I just said but many instructors do not. Either way...people can market their abilities any way they choose, just as their intended audience can block them out. After awhile they start to sound like Charlie Brown's teacher.
Re: Variable Wind
I respecfully took your bio down.We all fall short of the mark at times and are never so smart not to humbly learn more
I respecfully took your bio down.We all fall short of the mark at times and are never so smart not to humbly learn more
Re: Variable Wind
does anybody know if there is a table or a program for .308 with the mil hold for wind speeds at different distances?
does anybody know if there is a table or a program for .308 with the mil hold for wind speeds at different distances?
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaKid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">does anybody know if there is a table or a program for .308 with the mil hold for wind speeds at different distances? </div></div>Go here , its free and it will caculate a table for you providing you put the right information in
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaKid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">does anybody know if there is a table or a program for .308 with the mil hold for wind speeds at different distances? </div></div>Go here , its free and it will caculate a table for you providing you put the right information in
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
Re: Variable Wind
I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain
I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A wise shooter will get training from someone who actually knows how to do it. There is no benefit to the blind leading the blind, except perhaps for someone who gets his kicks observing the farce. I watch winners not losers.
One more thing, a new shooter who abandons what is not working may be abandoning what is simply unnatural. For example, a correct position may be initially unnatural. This is why a highly qualified mentor/coach can help folks off to a good start. Those who go it alone may chase their tails. </div></div>
And they do get training. Lots of it. From reputable organizations such as Trace Armory, Rifles Only, K&M, and right here on SH. The caveat here is that most are looking for a teacher or instructor, not a lecturer …a distinct difference you’d be wise to grasp.
It is good advice though, some you may wish to consider yourself. After all things have changed (equipment, methods, etc) since you and the flintlock have retired. There are many training agencies previously mentioned that could bring you up to speed </div></div> I think you'd also include the USAMU in your list of reputable trainers. I've assisted the USAMU in their training of Soldiers participating in the SDM program before the program even had a name. The advice I've given here are not my notions but doctrine on the matter from the USAMU. All of what I've alluded to can be found in any version of the SDM curriculum. On the other hand, your statements have only proven that you know nothing about good shooting, so, no matter how you present your ideas, it's still just misinformation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A wise shooter will get training from someone who actually knows how to do it. There is no benefit to the blind leading the blind, except perhaps for someone who gets his kicks observing the farce. I watch winners not losers.
One more thing, a new shooter who abandons what is not working may be abandoning what is simply unnatural. For example, a correct position may be initially unnatural. This is why a highly qualified mentor/coach can help folks off to a good start. Those who go it alone may chase their tails. </div></div>
And they do get training. Lots of it. From reputable organizations such as Trace Armory, Rifles Only, K&M, and right here on SH. The caveat here is that most are looking for a teacher or instructor, not a lecturer …a distinct difference you’d be wise to grasp.
It is good advice though, some you may wish to consider yourself. After all things have changed (equipment, methods, etc) since you and the flintlock have retired. There are many training agencies previously mentioned that could bring you up to speed
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain</div></div>
What you're looking for does not exist.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain</div></div>
What you're looking for does not exist.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain </div></div>
First, don’t ignore the fact that you are actually the local expert concerning wind at the place you shoot. All of the information you need to make the right call is right in front of you…you just haven’t yet learned to pick up on all of the clues, and using “general rules” or “preferred methods” may screw you.
As an example, I shot last weekend at my local haunt and these are the conditions I had at 850 yards…
-Winds were intermittent
-A small wind flag at the berm indicated light breeze out of the 5 o’clock
-Wind at my shooting position was 12 o’clock in my face at around 5mph
-mirage was moving right to left
-there was no rhyme or reason to the movement of grasses and small bushes in the shooting lane and there was nothing blowing around at ground level
-the treetops lining the shooting lane (40-ish foot pines) were swaying right to left (note the opposite direction from mirage). Given the amount/direction of sway I estimated them to be 15mph out of 10 o’clock
This is the information I was able to gather about my conditions at the time. There may have been more going on that I couldn’t detect but I felt that I had enough information. Now let’s “reverse engineer” these conditions by taking a shot using my zero wind dope, and the round splashes 12 inches right of a 18” wide plate. All I’m using here is common sense, a mildot master, a known distance from center, and a M118 wind chart..
Did the wind flag at the berm, the wind in my face, or mirage push my shot right? Duh…No
The only thing moving left to right were the treetops and this has to be the condition having a predominant effect on the projectile on this day in these conditions. The center of the plate is 9” from the edge, and the round splashed 1’ right of that so let’s just say that I was 2 feet right of center.
If I look at my wind chart I’d see that a 15mph wind is approximately a 3.75 mil full value wind. Given that it’s blowing from 10 o’clock its somewhere between ¼ to ½ value. Since the wind is intermittent I’m going to use ¼ so I don’t overcorrect. 3.75 / 4 = 0.9 mils. If I cross reference that to the mildot master I’ll see that the 2 foot right splash of my round is equal to around 0.8 mils which is damn close to the 0.9 with 1/4 value correction derived from the wind chart. I can either hold (preferred) or dial that value. I prefer to dial half in these conditions for reasons best left for another discussion. If I use purely a hold I'll also use only half the value.
Using the method I just described you can draw certain conclusions…
-Is mirage the preferred method of reading the wind? No. It’s helpful in certain situations.
-Can anyone that hasn’t shot at my location tell me how to read the wind there? No. They can give me some general guidelines or “tips” but they’re as freakin’ clueless as a rookie if they’ve never been there.
-Do you need a spotter to make the observations that I made? No. I made all of those observations using only my rifle optic and a pair of binocs
-Can firing a round be the preferred method of determining wind or learning how to read it? Abso-freakin-lutely. “Reverse engineer” the wind and you’ll see things you’ve never seen before.
-Am I some sort of wind guru? Not even remotely close. I’m just a shooter that pays attention to my surroundings and I trust most of what I see, and little of what is force fed to me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain </div></div>
First, don’t ignore the fact that you are actually the local expert concerning wind at the place you shoot. All of the information you need to make the right call is right in front of you…you just haven’t yet learned to pick up on all of the clues, and using “general rules” or “preferred methods” may screw you.
As an example, I shot last weekend at my local haunt and these are the conditions I had at 850 yards…
-Winds were intermittent
-A small wind flag at the berm indicated light breeze out of the 5 o’clock
-Wind at my shooting position was 12 o’clock in my face at around 5mph
-mirage was moving right to left
-there was no rhyme or reason to the movement of grasses and small bushes in the shooting lane and there was nothing blowing around at ground level
-the treetops lining the shooting lane (40-ish foot pines) were swaying right to left (note the opposite direction from mirage). Given the amount/direction of sway I estimated them to be 15mph out of 10 o’clock
This is the information I was able to gather about my conditions at the time. There may have been more going on that I couldn’t detect but I felt that I had enough information. Now let’s “reverse engineer” these conditions by taking a shot using my zero wind dope, and the round splashes 12 inches right of a 18” wide plate. All I’m using here is common sense, a mildot master, a known distance from center, and a M118 wind chart..
Did the wind flag at the berm, the wind in my face, or mirage push my shot right? Duh…No
The only thing moving left to right were the treetops and this has to be the condition having a predominant effect on the projectile on this day in these conditions. The center of the plate is 9” from the edge, and the round splashed 1’ right of that so let’s just say that I was 2 feet right of center.
If I look at my wind chart I’d see that a 15mph wind is approximately a 3.75 mil full value wind. Given that it’s blowing from 10 o’clock its somewhere between ¼ to ½ value. Since the wind is intermittent I’m going to use ¼ so I don’t overcorrect. 3.75 / 4 = 0.9 mils. If I cross reference that to the mildot master I’ll see that the 2 foot right splash of my round is equal to around 0.8 mils which is damn close to the 0.9 with 1/4 value correction derived from the wind chart. I can either hold (preferred) or dial that value. I prefer to dial half in these conditions for reasons best left for another discussion. If I use purely a hold I'll also use only half the value.
Using the method I just described you can draw certain conclusions…
-Is mirage the preferred method of reading the wind? No. It’s helpful in certain situations.
-Can anyone that hasn’t shot at my location tell me how to read the wind there? No. They can give me some general guidelines or “tips” but they’re as freakin’ clueless as a rookie if they’ve never been there.
-Do you need a spotter to make the observations that I made? No. I made all of those observations using only my rifle optic and a pair of binocs
-Can firing a round be the preferred method of determining wind or learning how to read it? Abso-freakin-lutely. “Reverse engineer” the wind and you’ll see things you’ve never seen before.
-Am I some sort of wind guru? Not even remotely close. I’m just a shooter that pays attention to my surroundings and I trust most of what I see, and little of what is force fed to me.
Re: Variable Wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain</div></div>
What you're looking for does not exist. </div></div>
Actually it does,
Several software programs like Patagonia's Loadbase 3 offers multiple wind values, at the shooter, mid and target.
Using experience one could read the wind at the shooter, take that Kestrel value and input it in the 1st wind position, by understanding your TOF, Max Ord, etc, one could then estimate values based on the shooter's level of experience and understanding terrain effects, and insert different values in the other loacations. I have done this and have been able to get accurate wind information in the mountains across a variety of conditions based on the readings.
Also the benefit of the software is, it also takes the air density into effect. Which where I shooter can be as much as 12,000 DA so the wind effects a greatly are reduced.
Using one value, I was given a solution of .7 mils shooting a 175SMK out to 800 yards. This was based on a wind speed of about 6-8 MPH. However the wind from the shooters position to the Max Ord was partially blocked because of the mountains, so you reduce that number to 3 MPH based on the exposure,. The center valley being at the location of Max Ord was unobstructed and funneling the wind, so change that to 8 MPH for a mid range wind, at the target was on an opposite hill so the target area was blocked by terrain and trees so you reduce that wind to 3 MPH and the final answer was a wind call of .3 mils, which is correct.
Experience says,
1. Air density is less, cut the wind call
2. Wind at the shooter was read as 6 MPH but being from 4 O clock and blocked you can reduce it to either 2 or 3 MPH for reduced effect and exposure.
3. The greatest effect was coming mid range because the wind was being funneled to a full value as opposed to the 1/2 value seen at the shooter. Experience tells me increase the MPH to an 8 MPH full value.
4. Wind at the target, again, reduced TOF, the fact the target is being sheltered by terrain and trees, you want to cut that value, 3MPH at 1/2 value,
If you just input 8 MPH to the software at full value the solution is wrong. LB3 correctly adjusted for all the conditions my experience read. It knew to reduce the wind call by half. No formula or old school method can do that, modern software can.
So it does exists, yes I did a lesson in the Online Training demonstrating it as well how to get the solution above that match.
In the mountains you have to look at segments of flight as its own leg, then using software that knows how to handle it, you add In your values and Calculate a solution.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope we can move on from here and hear some ideas on wind reading with multiple wind vectors around uneven terrain</div></div>
What you're looking for does not exist. </div></div>
Actually it does,
Several software programs like Patagonia's Loadbase 3 offers multiple wind values, at the shooter, mid and target.
Using experience one could read the wind at the shooter, take that Kestrel value and input it in the 1st wind position, by understanding your TOF, Max Ord, etc, one could then estimate values based on the shooter's level of experience and understanding terrain effects, and insert different values in the other loacations. I have done this and have been able to get accurate wind information in the mountains across a variety of conditions based on the readings.
Also the benefit of the software is, it also takes the air density into effect. Which where I shooter can be as much as 12,000 DA so the wind effects a greatly are reduced.
Using one value, I was given a solution of .7 mils shooting a 175SMK out to 800 yards. This was based on a wind speed of about 6-8 MPH. However the wind from the shooters position to the Max Ord was partially blocked because of the mountains, so you reduce that number to 3 MPH based on the exposure,. The center valley being at the location of Max Ord was unobstructed and funneling the wind, so change that to 8 MPH for a mid range wind, at the target was on an opposite hill so the target area was blocked by terrain and trees so you reduce that wind to 3 MPH and the final answer was a wind call of .3 mils, which is correct.
Experience says,
1. Air density is less, cut the wind call
2. Wind at the shooter was read as 6 MPH but being from 4 O clock and blocked you can reduce it to either 2 or 3 MPH for reduced effect and exposure.
3. The greatest effect was coming mid range because the wind was being funneled to a full value as opposed to the 1/2 value seen at the shooter. Experience tells me increase the MPH to an 8 MPH full value.
4. Wind at the target, again, reduced TOF, the fact the target is being sheltered by terrain and trees, you want to cut that value, 3MPH at 1/2 value,
If you just input 8 MPH to the software at full value the solution is wrong. LB3 correctly adjusted for all the conditions my experience read. It knew to reduce the wind call by half. No formula or old school method can do that, modern software can.
So it does exists, yes I did a lesson in the Online Training demonstrating it as well how to get the solution above that match.
In the mountains you have to look at segments of flight as its own leg, then using software that knows how to handle it, you add In your values and Calculate a solution.
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