Anybody to do a replica of Burke’s Elephant Valley rifle out there?
- Thread starter Speedarino
- Start date
Umm, please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly would be "Burke's Elephant Valley rifle"? Google search did not really help...
Hes referring to Carlos Hathcocks partner and the rifle he used while engaged with NVA in the Elephant Valley region.
Well, I saw the reference to 'M14 sniper/spotter,' and was curious what configuration was described in the book re an M14 rifle.
Circa 1967-1968 it could have been an M14 with the AWC mount and M84 scope. Beginning in 1969 it could have been an XM21 sniper rifle. I have replicas of both, but I since I have not read about the rifle in question, I hope others might elaborate...
(Attached is a 1968 picture showing the original AWC mount with M84 scope).
Circa 1967-1968 it could have been an M14 with the AWC mount and M84 scope. Beginning in 1969 it could have been an XM21 sniper rifle. I have replicas of both, but I since I have not read about the rifle in question, I hope others might elaborate...
(Attached is a 1968 picture showing the original AWC mount with M84 scope).
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I remember reading about John Burke in the books, but hadn't considered how he set his rifle up. Or, even if it was different from other DM style M14's. It'll be interesting to see what we can find.
I have not read the book (Hathcock & Burke's Elephant Valley Hamburger Hunt), so I can not speculate on what was written re John Burke's M14. But I have read Peter Senich's excellent book, The Long-Range War: Sniping in Vietnam, and to the best of my knowledge, the only "official" M14 scoped sniper rifles in Vietnam in 1967 would have been equipped with the M84 (2.2X) scopes, and the brand-new AWC scope mount.
In March 1967, Rock Island sent 125 match prepped M14s with this new optical system to Vietnam. An addition 425 AWC mounts were also subsequently sent as well, and over 300 M84 scopes, and this combo was used on various 'ad hoc' M14 sniper rifles throughout the Vietnam war.
There were also some 'improvised' M14 snipers with scope mounts drilled into the receiver of M14s (where the rear sight had been removed, etc), but these were basically ‘one-off’ ad hoc rifles that were made before the AWC mounts were available.
I do have a replica of the match conditioned 1967 M14 sniper rifles with a 67’ NM barrel, a vintage AWC mount and M84 scope (sometimes called a "pre-XM21" sniper rifle). Here's two pictures:
Not sure if that answers the original poster's question re John Burke's M14, but that's my 2cts.
In March 1967, Rock Island sent 125 match prepped M14s with this new optical system to Vietnam. An addition 425 AWC mounts were also subsequently sent as well, and over 300 M84 scopes, and this combo was used on various 'ad hoc' M14 sniper rifles throughout the Vietnam war.
There were also some 'improvised' M14 snipers with scope mounts drilled into the receiver of M14s (where the rear sight had been removed, etc), but these were basically ‘one-off’ ad hoc rifles that were made before the AWC mounts were available.
I do have a replica of the match conditioned 1967 M14 sniper rifles with a 67’ NM barrel, a vintage AWC mount and M84 scope (sometimes called a "pre-XM21" sniper rifle). Here's two pictures:
Not sure if that answers the original poster's question re John Burke's M14, but that's my 2cts.
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I really appreciate the time and info. I couldn’t remember how his rifle was rigged. It’s be too long to remember all the details.
Thank y’all again
Thank y’all again
That is correct, just got through reading the book, again, lol! Bolt56
I don't know about what you read, but the rifles we received were brand new National Match along with new M84 Scopes. I still have the original paperwork on my rifle and know where it is today. It's been too long ago, but I'M pretty sure the scopes were separate and the armorer installed them. We then spent the next several weeks on the range. Our shoulder's got so sore we'd fold up a towel between the butt stock and our shoulder.
I have LOTS of pictures . . . y'all will get sick of them!! But I've gotta head out to the VA right now so I'll post some later. Thanks for your interest and thanks for posting your pictures!
I found the docs now on these M14's with M84's. If anyone has a question I can go look it up.
But I am curious of something NSHannibal? It looks like you were 101st Airborne. Did you see any Model 70's with M84's when you were there? I'm imagining they were gone for several years by the time you made it. But the 101st had some early in the war.
But I am curious of something NSHannibal? It looks like you were 101st Airborne. Did you see any Model 70's with M84's when you were there? I'm imagining they were gone for several years by the time you made it. But the 101st had some early in the war.
Please post as many pics as you have too! We love to see this stuff! Thank you for your service and welcome home!
Y'all are WAY too kind, THANK YOU!
My best buddy in the two latest pictures attended a Marine Sniper School while I was on R&R in late '68. I went to Sniper School at Camp Eagle in Jan '69, base camp for the 101st Airborne. I was with 1st Brigade, 2nd Battalion of the 327th (No Slack) Infantry, 101st ABN DIV. In the days before our new National Match M-14 arrived, he carried and was most successful with a Model 70. I don't remember the glass however. He was hit in February and died in March. I was hit in March in the same AO.
Here's a picture of another buddy of mine from '67 . . .
My best buddy in the two latest pictures attended a Marine Sniper School while I was on R&R in late '68. I went to Sniper School at Camp Eagle in Jan '69, base camp for the 101st Airborne. I was with 1st Brigade, 2nd Battalion of the 327th (No Slack) Infantry, 101st ABN DIV. In the days before our new National Match M-14 arrived, he carried and was most successful with a Model 70. I don't remember the glass however. He was hit in February and died in March. I was hit in March in the same AO.
Here's a picture of another buddy of mine from '67 . . .
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That is a great pic NSHannibal! From what I understood the win 70’s that Army got hold of were standard barrel weight.
HSHannibal, thanks again for the pics. I think any additional vintage pics you can share of sniper rifles used in Vietnam are of historic interest to cplnorton, myself, and many others.
Thanks for your service too.
Thanks for your service too.
There is a cool pic of a 101st soldier carrying a M70 looking like its in full Sporter mode to include a pencil 30-06 barrel.
@NSHannibal great stuff. Awesome to hear from someone there rather than speculate or get second had "I heard...." type info.
Thank you for doing the hard thing while everyone else was running away.
@NSHannibal great stuff. Awesome to hear from someone there rather than speculate or get second had "I heard...." type info.
Thank you for doing the hard thing while everyone else was running away.
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Hi,
@NSHannibal
No way we get tired of first hand experiences to go with first hand pictures!!!
IF you burn your computer up from posting them, I will send you a new one. lol.
Sincerely,
Theis
@NSHannibal
No way we get tired of first hand experiences to go with first hand pictures!!!
IF you burn your computer up from posting them, I will send you a new one. lol.
Sincerely,
Theis
NSHannibal, Thank You!
Both for serving and for taking time to post your pictures!
VERY good stuff.
Chet
Both for serving and for taking time to post your pictures!
VERY good stuff.
Chet
Thanks much for the pis and the info. It's a piece of American history and anything you care to post I am appreciative of.
NSHannibal,
Please keep the pictures and your experiences coming...awesome stuff!!!
Thanks you!
DW
Please keep the pictures and your experiences coming...awesome stuff!!!
Thanks you!
DW
With all this interest, you might want to check out this thread (https://www.327infantry.org/homescreamingeagles/inside-the-wire/discussions/sniper-rifles/) on this web site I co-host. Is it okay to post links? Forgive me if not, I'm new to this forum.
Here are a couple of more pictures. You gotta remember, that M-84 scope had a lot of problems with condensation and many times had to be taken off. I watched my buddy Bret hit a guy with his second shot from 1,200 meters with open sights.
Here are a couple of more pictures. You gotta remember, that M-84 scope had a lot of problems with condensation and many times had to be taken off. I watched my buddy Bret hit a guy with his second shot from 1,200 meters with open sights.
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Springfield Armory M25 / M1a .308 Ltd Edition Hathcock White Feather Sniper
PLEASE SCROLL DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF DESCRIPTION TO VIEW ALLPHOTOSNO RESERVE! Here's a Springfield Armory M25 White Feather tactical/sniper rifle. The White Fe
www.gunauction.com This is incredible! You actually have pics of these. The 101st Airborne actually had model 70's just like those pictured above.
They were shipped with Bushnell scopes around 1965, but they say they had problems with them and most were switched to the M84.
These I think are the bushnell scopes. Which are the only pics of them I am aware of!
Thank you for posting these!
They were shipped with Bushnell scopes around 1965, but they say they had problems with them and most were switched to the M84.
These I think are the bushnell scopes. Which are the only pics of them I am aware of!
Thank you for posting these!
Check out LRB or Bula, they make some great M14's.
DW
HShannibal, thanks again for those vintage pics. The exact 3-9x Japanese scope used on the Model 70 is an enigma...so if you have any more pics of the scoped M70s - please do share...
Since we are on the topic of Vietnam M14 and M70s, here's my replica of an XM-21 circa 1969-1970 with some Vietnam era field gear.
Since we are on the topic of Vietnam M14 and M70s, here's my replica of an XM-21 circa 1969-1970 with some Vietnam era field gear.
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Right on the first page of your site is the picture I referenced of the M70 Sporter complete with pencil barrel and ramped front sight.
Looks like he has an M84.
That is one burdened soldier.
I speculate he was making a short change of position while expecting to be in immediate contact.
The pack is ready to be dumped if need be while the all important radio is going to stay with him.
Kind of odd the sniper has the radio unless it was some sort of LRRP or something.
I agree, M84. And you are correct. Normally you wouldn't find an RTO with a sniper rifle, but i guess Mallett was a damn good shot in ABU (A-1/327), a line company. Tiger Force was their battalion recon unit and the Hawks (2/327) were ours. BTW, Friz pictured above was also with ABU.
A few years ago, that pic had come up. I’m glad there was a little more explanation to it as well as this time the original caption was included with it.
I would agree that short distance change of position would be why the ruck was carried that way. He’s not going to go any significant distance without serious back pain carrying it that way.
I would also have to say I stand corrected on my initial outlook on that photo from back when. As apparently, this guy Mallett wanted both the sniper rifle and the radio.
NSHannibal,
I should coordinate with you. I have thousands of pages of sniper docs from Vietnam and I think your first hand experience really might help in publishing some of this. You might email me. [email protected]
By the way, I think you will get a kick out of this. This is your brand new NM M14's. They just got them when they issued you, your's..
These are declassifed by the way.
I should coordinate with you. I have thousands of pages of sniper docs from Vietnam and I think your first hand experience really might help in publishing some of this. You might email me. [email protected]
By the way, I think you will get a kick out of this. This is your brand new NM M14's. They just got them when they issued you, your's..
These are declassifed by the way.
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You know clicking on your link above, with the snipers talking about the Model 70 with Bushnell scope. I have all those docs!
How cool would it be to do an article on that with first hand experience and then the actual documents to back them up! Same as you with the M14.
I'm thinking outloud, but I'm thinking a hybrid article. One that details the correct history of these rifles with the actual documents, then inserts quotes by the men who actually carried them like you, with personal stories and pictures. I think it would be a killer piece!
How cool would it be to do an article on that with first hand experience and then the actual documents to back them up! Same as you with the M14.
I'm thinking outloud, but I'm thinking a hybrid article. One that details the correct history of these rifles with the actual documents, then inserts quotes by the men who actually carried them like you, with personal stories and pictures. I think it would be a killer piece!
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I’d pay to read that!?
/\ /\ /\ /\
WOW cplnorton! You obviously have a treasure trove of information. I have one of those green slips on my rifle. That's how I was able to track it down. It's never been reissued since Vietnam and sits in a rack at the Anniston Army Depot, AL. A 3 star that once commanded by old battalion tried and tried to get it for me. No luck. The DOD considers ALL M-14s as full automatic, even though the selector switch was welded for semi-auto only. I guess they claim it's just too easy to convert any M-14 to full rock and roll.
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Outstanding idea! I'd buy a copy!
DW
There were a lot of Model 70s in the 101st in the 67-68 time period. The only ones I saw were the standard hunting rifles, in '06 with the Weaver 4X scope. With the limited range you get in the jungle they were more effective then those target scopes with external knobs.
After I left I think they started getting the M21s. Same as I used in the USAMU Sniper School in '78.
In reality the closest thing we used was the M16A1 with Starlight Scope. I was in a Recon Paltoon (Recondo, 2/502 inf) we didnt have enough people to put up much of a fuss, The M16a1 /with star lights were quite effective to 3-400 yds. But if there were more bandits then we wanted to fool with we called in Arty and ran like hell.
After I left I think they started getting the M21s. Same as I used in the USAMU Sniper School in '78.
In reality the closest thing we used was the M16A1 with Starlight Scope. I was in a Recon Paltoon (Recondo, 2/502 inf) we didnt have enough people to put up much of a fuss, The M16a1 /with star lights were quite effective to 3-400 yds. But if there were more bandits then we wanted to fool with we called in Arty and ran like hell.
That's a sweet Model 70 you have... Looks like a great shooter as well!!There were a lot of Model 70s in the 101st in the 67-68 time period. The only ones I saw were the standard hunting rifles, in '06 with the Weaver 4X scope. With the limited range you get in the jungle they were more effective then those target scopes with external knobs.
After I left I think they started getting the M21s. Same as I used in the USAMU Sniper School in '78.
In reality the closest thing we used was the M16A1 with Starlight Scope. I was in a Recon Paltoon (Recondo, 2/502 inf) we didnt have enough people to put up much of a fuss, The M16a1 /with star lights were quite effective to 3-400 yds. But if there were more bandits then we wanted to fool with we called in Arty and ran like hell.
Thanks for the info!
DW
Very cool thread! I'm listening to Jocko's podcast with John Stryker Myer, a SOG guy who wrote several books including "Across the Fence".
As far as elephant valley, I seem to remember in 93 Confirmed Kills that Burk just had an iron sited M14 with no optic.
As far as elephant valley, I seem to remember in 93 Confirmed Kills that Burk just had an iron sited M14 with no optic.
This thread is awesome with all this info!!!
That podcast with John Styker Myer on Jocko.....is a MUST LISTEN TO.
Thank you to all those "getting after it" past, present and future
Following. (11B Chu Lai, 70-71, Army, Americal Division) My three friends who were snipers during this time frame carried M-14s that the unit armorer worked on- 'accuarized'. Not sure of the scope used. I am also friends with Erik Villard. He was the civilian historian for the Army and the VN war. If you all write up a piece on sniping w/photos (& credits) I am sure Erik would be interested in getting that in the Army's history during the VN war. Right now he is working , still for the army, but doing the same thing only during WW1. I am one of the admins on his group on Facebook. VietnamwarHistory.org lg
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For what it's worth, according to a family friend who was with 26th (iirc) Marine Regt their Spotter M14s were irons-only Match rifles that in peacetime were reserved for competition. He briefly carried a Model 70, receiving the M40 upon assignment with his battalion. The only scoped -14s he saw were those outfitted for the AN/PVS-2. Not to say that The School on Hill 55 didn't have other rigs- they did have Team armorers- just that he hadn't seen or heard of them though his school or in use during his time In-Country.
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