"Vintage" rangefinding?
- Thread starter ChrisBCS
- Start date
Get yourself a copy of the War Department book- Small Arms Firing Manual 1913... it explains the process in detail and has practical exercises. It might be posted online somewhere.
Also, there was a device called the Musketry Rule, Model of 1918. It is a ranging stadia of the type used as far back as the Civil War. I have one stashed in my collection somewhere, new in the box... I'll have to dig it out and post a pic. Very old technology, but still reasonably effective if used correctly.
Also, there was a device called the Musketry Rule, Model of 1918. It is a ranging stadia of the type used as far back as the Civil War. I have one stashed in my collection somewhere, new in the box... I'll have to dig it out and post a pic. Very old technology, but still reasonably effective if used correctly.
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Chris
Another old school source for range estimation can be found in the US Marine Corps Score Book and Rifleman's Instructor for the NEW Springfield Rifle (pre-WW1). Back in those days the Army and USMC had range estimation (practice followed by three proficiency tests) as part of individual qualifications... Expert Riflemen and Sharpshooters had to achieve 90% or better in range estimation proficiency testing or they were reduced one grade below that obtained in firing. Marksmen, first class men and second class men had to score 85%.
From the book:" The objectives will be natural objects, men or silhouettes. The distances will be from 530 to 1200 yards, and five distances are estimated for each test. After the distances have been estimated the true distance is announced."
Another old school source for range estimation can be found in the US Marine Corps Score Book and Rifleman's Instructor for the NEW Springfield Rifle (pre-WW1). Back in those days the Army and USMC had range estimation (practice followed by three proficiency tests) as part of individual qualifications... Expert Riflemen and Sharpshooters had to achieve 90% or better in range estimation proficiency testing or they were reduced one grade below that obtained in firing. Marksmen, first class men and second class men had to score 85%.
From the book:" The objectives will be natural objects, men or silhouettes. The distances will be from 530 to 1200 yards, and five distances are estimated for each test. After the distances have been estimated the true distance is announced."
I taught Sniper Schools when we used the M1C/Ds, You can use the front sight much the same way you use the Mil Dot.
The E-Silhouette target we used was 19X40 inches. The average front sight on the M1 is .076.
So take the with of the target (19 inches) and divide by the with of the front sight (.076) and you get 250.
Meaning at 250 yards the front sight of the M1 is the same width as the target. If the sight is twice the size of the target, its 500 yards, if the sight is 1/2 the size of the target its 125 yards. With practice you can get pretty damn good estimating range if you know the width of the target and the width of the front sight.
If you can read a map you can estimate range fairly accurately. If you know where you're at, and where the target is you can est. the range. Get a 1:25000 map and a protractor (or compos) with the 1:25000 scale and you have a range finder.
An advantage of using a map, is you don't have to worry about up or down hill angles.
The E-Silhouette target we used was 19X40 inches. The average front sight on the M1 is .076.
So take the with of the target (19 inches) and divide by the with of the front sight (.076) and you get 250.
Meaning at 250 yards the front sight of the M1 is the same width as the target. If the sight is twice the size of the target, its 500 yards, if the sight is 1/2 the size of the target its 125 yards. With practice you can get pretty damn good estimating range if you know the width of the target and the width of the front sight.
If you can read a map you can estimate range fairly accurately. If you know where you're at, and where the target is you can est. the range. Get a 1:25000 map and a protractor (or compos) with the 1:25000 scale and you have a range finder.
An advantage of using a map, is you don't have to worry about up or down hill angles.
All of the afore mentioned techniques are effective. Practice, practice, practice. When the wife and I go for walks after work (around the neighborhood), I take along a laser-rangefinder. We stop, I estimate a range to object, then laser it. It keeps me in practice w/o firing a shot.
In the days before fancy laser rangefinders... you could pack one of these beauties along. Does it count as factory gadgetry if it does not contain a single integrated circuit????
German WW2 Artillery 4 Meter Coastal Rangefinder ima-usa.com
Cheers,
Sirhr
German WW2 Artillery 4 Meter Coastal Rangefinder ima-usa.com
Cheers,
Sirhr
From time to time I dig out my old 1970's vintage Swedish Military optical range finder. It's reasonably accurate out to a maximum distance of 1,500 m (1,640 yd). Its accuracy is dependent upon the user's skill and visual acuity.
This device is a coincidence rangefinder with a 40 cm (15.75 in) optical base length. (It is not a stereoscopic rangefinder.) It weighs in at 5.9 kg (13 lb) so it isn't likely to accompany me on any long hikes.
Mounted vertically on its tripod it is 107 cm (42.25 in) tall. It can also be mounted horizontally for a lower profile.
Shown here beside my spotting scope for scale.
It isn't as handy or accurate as a laser but it is passive and can range a bird on a wire, try that with a laser.
I haven't used this gadget in a long time so I just took it down the road and did some ranging.
660 m /672 m Actual / -12 m error
745 m / 741 m Actual / +4 m error
900 m / 885 m Actual / +15 m error
570 m/ 540 m Actual / +30 m error
It takes some practice to repeatedly produce accurate range measurements.
Reading through the eyepiece the range increments are:
100 m to 200 m = 2 m increments
200 m to 400 m = 5 m increments
400 m to 600 m = 10 m increments
600 m to 800 m = 20 m increments
800 m to 1,200 m = 50 m increments
1,200 m to 1,500 m = 100 m increments
So as range increases the interpolation error grows larger.
This device is a coincidence rangefinder with a 40 cm (15.75 in) optical base length. (It is not a stereoscopic rangefinder.) It weighs in at 5.9 kg (13 lb) so it isn't likely to accompany me on any long hikes.
Mounted vertically on its tripod it is 107 cm (42.25 in) tall. It can also be mounted horizontally for a lower profile.
Shown here beside my spotting scope for scale.
It isn't as handy or accurate as a laser but it is passive and can range a bird on a wire, try that with a laser.
I haven't used this gadget in a long time so I just took it down the road and did some ranging.
660 m /672 m Actual / -12 m error
745 m / 741 m Actual / +4 m error
900 m / 885 m Actual / +15 m error
570 m/ 540 m Actual / +30 m error
It takes some practice to repeatedly produce accurate range measurements.
Reading through the eyepiece the range increments are:
100 m to 200 m = 2 m increments
200 m to 400 m = 5 m increments
400 m to 600 m = 10 m increments
600 m to 800 m = 20 m increments
800 m to 1,200 m = 50 m increments
1,200 m to 1,500 m = 100 m increments
So as range increases the interpolation error grows larger.
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Great responses! Never heard the M1 front sight method. Very cool. I saw an old WW2 vintage Russian contraption that looked something like binoculars that worked with a split prism. When the two halves of the image lined up, you read the distance off the outside.
Chris, are you looking for info on retical ranging with your scope or what?
Chris, are you looking for info on retical ranging with your scope or what?
Coincidence & Stereoscopic (Optics Based)
Coincidence rangefinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stadiametric (Referenced Measurement Based)
Stadiametric rangefinding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwGDPhNhXhg
These are about as "old school" as it gets, per above with the addition of map reading.
Funny, we had a training school where students were told no laser range finders for certain parts, and some of them showed up with range finders based off of the older technology, can't blame them for trying!
Coincidence rangefinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stadiametric (Referenced Measurement Based)
Stadiametric rangefinding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwGDPhNhXhg
These are about as "old school" as it gets, per above with the addition of map reading.
Funny, we had a training school where students were told no laser range finders for certain parts, and some of them showed up with range finders based off of the older technology, can't blame them for trying!
We had an exercise at a school at Blackwater where we weren't allowed to use LRF. It had to be done with milling on our scopes and/or spotters using dimensions of things like doors, windows, bricks, etc. I tried to use my old analog (twist dials, prism, etc) Zeiss Icon rangefinder that I keep in a dusty corner of my bag. No dice. Instructors made us do it with Mil-Dots. Which is a fine way to do it if you have known-size objects at the target area. I will say that the old rangefinder worked like a charm. The distances were dead-nuts. Don't discount old equipment. Some of it was the finest that your grandfather's tax dollars could afford. And when batteries are dead because it's 30 below zero up here... my old Zeiss rangefinder is going to work just as well as a LRF.
On another note... my score of the week was a 19th century Suhl, Germany-made Artillery clinometer/sight found at a flea market for a few bucks. The seller thought it was a carpenters level. Brass and all hand engraved, it is a work of art, not just a piece of old military hardware. It probably was still being used in WW1. An amazing piece of history for peanuts. I'll post a picture when I remember to take one... If it could talk, it could probably tell some stories.
Cheers,
Sirhr
$36.18 today.
They are out of stock right now, but I emailed about availability. Maybe a group buy to split the cost of shipping from Hungary?
