Vintage sniper match photos

[kraigWY]

From the CMP Okaloma Games.

Lots of Springfield 1903a4 & M1941s, few M1C/D's not much else. The Springfields seem to be the way to go.

Zenfolio | CMP Zenfolio Photo Page

 

[Stranded Yank]

Why did you do this... you have just made me terribly discontent with my M40-ish build... now I am wanting a Springfield... no chance of ever owning a Garand... so maybe I will splurge on a 1903.

 

[TRD1911]

I noticed an old friend of mine in there (Frosty). We were in a couple of the same units together. Great guy.

 

[ScharfshutzeK98]

Not a single K98 at the vintage matches? I really should try to get out there.

 

[Mike Radford]

Like I said in another thread, almost all 03 variants in the picture. I see one m1D, one PU, one M41b. With 90% 03s the odd of their winning is 90% plus. I am not convinced they win because they are the best thing to use, they may be, but there are plenty of rifles that can give them a run for the money. US shooters prefer US rifles. There is a definite bias. There are a lot of folks that believe the bias was included in the rules and there is reason to think this. Besides, how many other countries does CMP sale rifles from? The bias is understandable.

What is fair that there is no alternative scope for the Japanese rifles? They are pretty well excluded since the average Japanese scope is too expensive to risk, $1500 and up. The more rare scope variants are over $3500 and near irreplaceable. There are less than 40 known Kokura t99 scopes with only 1000 made. The late Adjustable scopes are nearly so rare. There are after market mounts but even a Weaver K2,5 or K4, which are allowed on K98s, are not allowed on Japanese rifles. Not fair!!

A friend that shoots Quantico vintage sniper matches a lot uses a PU and gives the M40s a run for their money. Yes, their rules allow M40s too.

Another friend and his brother won the local CMP match with a PU. He is in Wisconsin.

The US rifles need some competition. With the high percentages of rifles used being US is the primary reason they are dominating IMO.

 

[aur0ra145]

Is anyone going to Tulsa next weekend? I'm thinking about making the drive up there... And competing in my first match. My Geroge Tossan Mosin PU is dying to be shot.

 

[ScharfshutzeK98]

Like I said in another thread, almost all 03 variants in the picture. I see one m1D, one PU, one M41b. With 90% 03s the odd of their winning is 90% plus. I am not convinced they win because they are the best thing to use, they may be, but there are plenty of rifles that can give them a run for the money. US shooters prefer US rifles. There is a definite bias. There are a lot of folks that believe the bias was included in the rules and there is reason to think this. Besides, how many other countries does CMP sale rifles from? The bias is understandable.

What is fair that there is no alternative scope for the Japanese rifles? They are pretty well excluded since the average Japanese scope is too expensive to risk, $1500 and up. The more rare scope variants are over $3500 and near irreplaceable. There are less than 40 known Kokura t99 scopes with only 1000 made. The late Adjustable scopes are nearly so rare. There are after market mounts but even a Weaver K2,5 or K4, which are allowed on K98s, are not allowed on Japanese rifles. Not fair!!

A friend that shoots Quantico vintage sniper matches a lot uses a PU and gives the M40s a run for their money. Yes, their rules allow M40s too.

Another friend and his brother won the local CMP match with a PU. He is in Wisconsin.

The US rifles need some competition. With the high percentages of rifles used being US is the primary reason they are dominating IMO.

Hey Mike,

Its Raupleminze from gunboards. I couldnt agree with you more. I wish there was a little more diversity at these matches, it might create more of a historical challenge than a "who can shoot a 1903 the best" contest. I have thought for a few years how great it would be if accumounts made a reproduction scope and mount for Type 38(97 clone) and Type 99 rifles. Its almost like going to the car show and all it is are a bunch of corvettes.

 

[Mike Radford]

Hey Mike,

Its Raupleminze from gunboards. I couldnt agree with you more. I wish there was a little more diversity at these matches, it might create more of a historical challenge than a "who can shoot a 1903 the best" contest. I have thought for a few years how great it would be if accumounts made a reproduction scope and mount for Type 38(97 clone) and Type 99 rifles. Its almost like going to the car show and all it is are a bunch of corvettes.

Thanks, I think that the competition from other countries would enrich the competition.

We are lucky that there are reproductions of most of the Soviet stuff now. The PE scopes and mounts are out there and pretty good. The PEM mounts, which I once wondered if anyone would reproduce due to their complexity, are pretty good. The Jury is out on the Chinese PEM scope replicas. I do not think that any SVT is gonna be competitive.

The Japanese mounts made by Don Voight are pretty good, he has made but one batch of each type, and are certainly no advantage over a factory mount. Apparently a few T97 scopes are being made in Japan and are pretty pricey.

I have no idea why more K98 guys are not in the mix. There are plenty of replica mounts out there.

 

[kraigWY]

Like I said in another thread, almost all 03 variants in the picture. I see one m1D, one PU, one M41b. With 90% 03s the odd of their winning is 90% plus. I am not convinced they win because they are the best thing to use, they may be, but there are plenty of rifles that can give them a run for the money. US shooters prefer US rifles. There is a definite bias. There are a lot of folks that believe the bias was included in the rules and there is reason to think this. Besides, how many other countries does CMP sale rifles from? The bias is understandable.

What is fair that there is no alternative scope for the Japanese rifles? They are pretty well excluded since the average Japanese scope is too expensive to risk, $1500 and up. The more rare scope variants are over $3500 and near irreplaceable. There are less than 40 known Kokura t99 scopes with only 1000 made. The late Adjustable scopes are nearly so rare. There are after market mounts but even a Weaver K2,5 or K4, which are allowed on K98s, are not allowed on Japanese rifles. Not fair!!

A friend that shoots Quantico vintage sniper matches a lot uses a PU and gives the M40s a run for their money. Yes, their rules allow M40s too.

Another friend and his brother won the local CMP match with a PU. He is in Wisconsin.

The US rifles need some competition. With the high percentages of rifles used being US is the primary reason they are dominating IMO.

Maybe so;

But there's another way to look at it.

The CMP sets up their games to make them competitive, Carbines don't compete with Garands, Springfields don't compete with Krags, etc. etc. In the GSM games they award Gold, Silver, and Bonze Medals for certain scores. The standards for the different catagories are not the same. Some rifles require higher scores to get these metals.

The Scores for the Garand are higher then the scores for the (other) vintage rifles, such as the Swedes, Swiss, Mausers, M1917, Krag's and so forth.

The Scores for the Springfield are higher then the Garands.

Here is the brake down

Garand:
Gold 281 and above (possible 300)
Silver 273 to 280
Bronze 264 to 272

Springfields
Gold 282 and above
Silver 272-281
Bronze 264-273

Other Military
Gold 277 and above
Silver 269-276
Bronze 257-268

So I'm thinking there is more too it then American's just like American rifles.

Sure there are exceptions to everything, including rifles, I'm sure there are brand X rifles that would be more accurate then the Springfield or Garand, but on a whole, its not the case.

Another thing, as to the Vintage Sniper, its easier in this country for one to get parts to build a 1903A4 or 1941 then the foreign rifles.

Guess there is more ways to look at the reasons the Springfield's dominate the CMP games. As to numbers, there are more (non-sniping) Garands then Springfields but on a whole the Springfields out shoot the Garands.

 

[Mike Radford]

Thanks Kraig. Good info and good points. There are always a number of factors and the fact that part are easier to get is a big one.

 

[Joop]

Great photos, Kraig. Thanks for posting them!

My brother and I (we're actually in MN, Mike) shot another match, yesterday and we took second. We shot 91/30 PU and PEM rifles (original sniper rifles/scopes. Not repros and the same ones we took first place with, last year). I believe the team that beat us was using the 1903A4. However, I think we outscored them at 600 and actually lost it at the 300 yard line. My brother had one zero at 300 from a FTF (still not quite sure how it happened) and he didn't have any practice in before the match. I shoot a lot more often than he does and he actually shot better at 600 than 300, after getting reacquainted with the rifle, despite the wind which was gusting up to 32 mph. In any case, I think that they're all very competitive with each other and would agree that it will usually be determined by the guy(s) with the most time behind the trigger and who have spent the time tuning their rifle/load combo. I have some pretty strong feelings about some of the rules, too. Especially when it comes to what's actually "vintage" (let's not forget that a lot of these Springfields are actually custom guns and there's very little, if anything "vintage" left on them). But, that's a topic for another thread, I guess.

ScharfshutzeK98/Raupleminze,

I have a K98 SSR clone that I hope to shoot in a match in July. I'm really looking forward to it, since it's proving to be very competitive with all my other snipers. The only drawback being the lack of windage adjustment, so I'm forced to hold off the windage. No problem at 300, but it can get a little dicey at 600, especially if the wind is variable. This may be one of the reasons that we're not seeing many of them in the VSM. I also have an original Enfield No.4 (T) that has a Weaver K2.5 on it and I hope to shoot that, as well (or, one of us on the team will get to, anyway. Haven't decided who is shooting what yet, for the next match). But, even with that little Weaver, it will give pretty much any other rifle in it's class a run for it's money. Again, I think it comes down to who is pulling the trigger and how much time they have on it.

John

 

[Mike Radford]

Great photos, Kraig. Thanks for posting them!

My brother and I (we're actually in MN, Mike) shot another match, yesterday and we took second. We shot 91/30 PU and PEM rifles (original sniper rifles/scopes. Not repros and the same ones we took first place with, last year). I believe the team that beat us was using the 1903A4. However, I think we outscored them at 600 and actually lost it at the 300 yard line. My brother had one zero at 300 from a FTF (still not quite sure how it happened) and he didn't have any practice in before the match. I shoot a lot more often than he does and he actually shot better at 600 than 300, after getting reacquainted with the rifle, despite the wind which was gusting up to 32 mph. In any case, I think that they're all very competitive with each other and would agree that it will usually be determined by the guy(s) with the most time behind the trigger and who have spent the time tuning their rifle/load combo. I have some pretty strong feelings about some of the rules, too. Especially when it comes to what's actually "vintage" (let's not forget that a lot of these Springfields are actually custom guns and there's very little, if anything "vintage" left on them). But, that's a topic for another thread, I guess.

ScharfshutzeK98/Raupleminze,

I have a K98 SSR clone that I hope to shoot in a match in July. I'm really looking forward to it, since it's proving to be very competitive with all my other snipers. The only drawback being the lack of windage adjustment, so I'm forced to hold off the windage. No problem at 300, but it can get a little dicey at 600, especially if the wind is variable. This may be one of the reasons that we're not seeing many of them in the VSM. I also have an original Enfield No.4 (T) that has a Weaver K2.5 on it and I hope to shoot that, as well (or, one of us on the team will get to, anyway. Haven't decided who is shooting what yet, for the next match). But, even with that little Weaver, it will give pretty much any other rifle in it's class a run for it's money. Again, I think it comes down to who is pulling the trigger and how much time they have on it.

John

Hi John, Thanks for the clarification. I have CRS, can't remember stuff. At least I was north so was close. Don't see how you do so well with those winds and cold temps.

As I said in another thread, and have said so many times elsewhere, many of these rifles are anything but vintage snipers and are custom built match rifles that look like period snipers. Since when did the US use Criterion barrels in WW2? In any event, glad you did well but I know you should have won. As I always say, the Russian rifles will surprise most folks.

I am in WY now and will try an 03A1 with 8X Unertl at the 300 and 600 yds ranges along with an original A4, a PEM, two PUs and an M39. Since I only get to shoot past 100 yds in WY, I look forward to retireing soon so I can try most everything out at those ranges.

 

[kraigWY]

I'm of two schools of thought on the original vs. replica rifles. I like original but the prices of such are beyond the means of many who shoot vintage rifle matches. Look at the prices of 'A4s on the CMP Auction Site.

Mine is all GI, (except the CMP stock). The 1903a3 action was given to me but its a SC, 'A4s were Remington. I didn't go the Criterion barrel route because I found a '43 unused replacement (2 grove) barrel. All the other parts are GI and period.

W/a 2.5 X scope, I don't think I could shoot well enough to take advantage of the Criterion barrel at 300 & 600 yards. My rifle is capable of cleaning the targets, I'm the limiting factor.

Still I hate to see the CMP vintage rifle games become a rich man's sport. Just check out the difference in prices between an original Unertl vs a reproduction.

 

[Mike Radford]

Kraig, I agree. I am a bit torn on the issue. It is nice to have so many options, such as the non-original scopes and barrels. On the other hand, it opens up the chance to make it better than original. It is nice to have the shoot open to those who can not afford an original sniper, or do not wish harming an original, but I am afraid it continue to encourage folks to use rifles that are not like the originals in so many ways.

I think an original vintage sniper match may be a good idea plus Vintage/replica match??

It is human nature to take the rules and live within them while getting an advantage without violating them. One of my favorite examples is Smokey Yunick of Nascar fame. He was famous for being able to get an advantage without violating the letter of the rules but heck with the spirit of the rules. On a tech inspection, his gas tank checked out but oddly the car could be started and driven with an empty tank. Turns out he had filled part of the Roll bar with gas, which was not excluded specifically in the rules, so he had a gallon on two advantage there. Needless to say, the rules got amended.

 

[wilecoyote]

...I have no idea why more K98 guys are not in the mix. There are plenty of replica mounts out there.[/QUOTE]

because, and I say that as K98k enthusiast, when a proficient shooter with a well prepped,maintained and handloaded Carl Gustav M41B will enter in the competition, ALL the others can pack their stuff and go home_

 

[Mike Radford]

There was an M41b in one of the sets of pictures. I looked at two sets, not just the original linked ones.

I have fired 3, all were MO pre 1901, with the Ajacks scopes, and they were good but no better than most of the other WW2 snipers I have fired. The scope is outstanding. Some good match ammo may make a big difference.

 

[AK Sgt Maj]

The Alaska Rifle Club has a vintage sniper rifle match coming up on 6/8. We are going to run a practice match in the morning and the real match in the afternoon, at Ft Richardson, by Anchorage. Last year I talked with the CMP and they made a clarification, that at local matches the rifles do not have to be scoped, but can use as issued sights, after I made them admit that many snipers, like the Finns and Japanese did not use scopes. I have built and am building another A4 that I use a sporterized A3 and then get new surplus 2 groove barrel, scant stock, handguards, Redfield scope mounts, Weaver US made K2.5 scope and mixed surplus and repo metal fittings. The 2 groove barrels seam to shoot as good as the Repo barrels. I think the Marine o3A1 with the 8 power scope would be the toughest to beat. I'm doing the A4 because I'm to old to see the iron sights to well anymore.

 

[wilecoyote]

(CGs)...here they simply rules at the 300meters...rifles engineered removing the faults of the 98/8x57combo, long barreled,finely manufactured during peacetime,first class materials,most of them never have seen a real combat...well balanced cartridge,accurate,mild recoil,good BC...high quality glasses... good availabilty today of the best handloading components : being the same the shooter/handloader's proficiency,the factors above can become a big advantage shooting at the bullseye_
said that,I never would trade a real ssg K98carbine for anything else, but that's a different story,and I unshamefully defend my partiality_