Rifle Scopes Vortex PST Travel

[thrusty]

I have a PST 6-24x50 FFP EBR-1 MOA/MOA scope mounted on my GAP 6.5 Creedmoor.
Rings are Badger mediums and base is a Badger 20MOA.

Rifle shoots like a house on fire...Anyway, after setting the scope up on a 100yrd zero, I only have 3 full revolutions of elevation left in the scope (around 38MOA to be exact).

Is this a typical amount of elevation travel that I have remaining? I realize that the scope only has 65MOA of total travel, but, I don't have much left if I want to shoot out to 1100 yrds.

Yes, I called Vortex customer support before posting...they hinted it was the gun. lol


I just wanted to see what others have experienced before I sink another $100+ into a 30MOA or even 45MOA base.

EDIT: Please verify - My rail has 306-06 stamped on it. I'm assuming that Badger stamps their zero cant rail as 306-06F and doesn't stamp all their rails with the same model number?

EDIT2: Finally found a picture of a zero cant rail.

 

[Capt Academy]

I had that same scope on a 7mm Mag shooting 180 VLD's at 3056 fps and had no problem out to 760 yards with still plenty of elevation left. I was never at a range that I could shoot over 1k, but the scope elevation still had plenty to easily reach that distance.

 

[thrusty]

Anyone else?

 

[bodywerks]

Have you counted how much total elevation you have to verify you in fact have the advertised 65 MOA?
I would do that first. Then if it is verified close enough divide the total in half and dial up (or down) to that(lets say, 32.5 MOA) and shoot at 100 yards. With a true 0 MOA base, about a 2 inch sight height (bore center line to center of objective), and a properly centered reticle, impact should only be about 2.5-3 inches below POA. Add a 20 MOA base and impact should be 18-18.5" high. This is perfect world scenario. Real world, I'd say at least 15" at 100yds or you either have a base that isn't true or a reticle that isn't centered. Only real way to know which is to put the score on a different rifle.

 

[bodywerks]

Also, FWIW, rarely have i encountered a scope with less total travel than advertised. So if you have less than 65 MOA I'd send it back on principle alone.
If you want my honest opinion you are WAY under scoped for the quality of rifle you have anyway and its time to upgrade

 

[Icallem]

Thrusty, I have a couple of the same scopes. Just got finished with a 2 day class where we shot out to 977 yards. I used the PST on a 308 with a 20 MOA rail on it. Shooting 175 SMK's I had no problem at the 977. I didn't check to see how much more elevation was left and don't have my notes here to check on where I was, but do remember that I was in the third revolution as I was marking my notes on each rev. My wife was shooting a 6.5 CM and I don't think she was out of the second rev. I have no idea if there was another ~130 of elev left in it.

FWIW, I have never felt "under scoped" while using the PST. Are there better scopes? Of course. But given the price point they are good to go.

 

[foxC]

I have the 6-24 x 50 PST in mil/mil on a 20 MOA badger base with badger high rings. Zeroed at 100 yds I believe there are three revolutions of travel left.

A few days ago there was a thread going where someone posted the results of the vortex ballistic calculator and there was still enough adjustment left with this scope to reach 1000 yds. I think he posted range of 1100 yds

 

[thrusty]

Ok, thanks to everyone for your info. Appreciated. The scope was what I could afford at the time, so it's all I got for the time being. It tracks well and is very clear at full zoom...overall I'm happy considering the low cost. Just wish I had one more revolution of movement. If it comes to it, I'll buy new rail with 30+ MOA of cant.

 

[5R Milspec]

I have the same scope with all most the same setup.With my slow ( 2544fps ) 175gn smk load I too have the same amount of up travel as you.When I talked to Vortex I asked if I should go with a 30moa base,was told not to for it might hurt the scope by bottoming out the turret.Made since at the time but not wounder if it would have helped to get more travel.I don't really need it but I still wounder.Maybe one day I will play and buy a 30moa,would love to find a 25moa base but who knows.If I have too I'll just go back to my high node for that bullet,then this alone will give me a few more ups if need.


hope this helped

 

[3DHUSKER]

So what is the REAL total travel on the scope? Did you bottom it and then count it up and arrive on 65 MOA or is this what they say. You should have at least 50 MOA of travel with that base if it is a 20 MOA.

Also should not have any trouble getting to 1100 with the 38 moa you already have now with a slick 6.5.

 

[Icallem]

Thrusty, this thread had me thinking, so I checked some things on my PST's. Checked one scope and it had 70 MOA of travel up-down. Checked the one on my 308 and with it setting on a 20 MOA rail, it has 48 MOA of up left in it with a 100 yard zero.

I checked my notes and I used 39 MOA to get to the 977 yard target with the 308. My wife's notes indicated she used 29 MOA to get there with her 6.5 CM. She is using 123 amax at ~2900 fps.

I don't understand why mine would have 48 up left in it. Mine sets in low rings but no matter what rings yours would be in there should not be that big of a difference from a 100 yard zero.

 

[3DHUSKER]

Thrusty, this thread had me thinking, so I checked some things on my PST's. Checked one scope and it had 70 MOA of travel up-down. Checked the one on my 308 and with it setting on a 20 MOA rail, it has 48 MOA of up left in it with a 100 yard zero.

I checked my notes and I used 39 MOA to get to the 977 yard target with the 308. My wife's notes indicated she used 29 MOA to get there with her 6.5 CM. She is using 123 amax at ~2900 fps.

I don't understand why mine would have 48 up left in it. Mine sets in low rings but no matter what rings yours would be in there should not be that big of a difference from a 100 yard zero.

Icallem-- First, I am in SW MO. Do you have a local range to shoot at? I shoot on private ground most of the time.
Second I am not sure what you are shooting out of your 308 but I shoot a 168 garain amax at 2795 FPS and at 1000 yards I have a 31.94 MOA dope, but I guess if your shooting a bullet not as slick that might be why. I am at 38.71 at 1100.

I hope the OP comes back and tells us what he is finding. Something is not right.

 

[Icallem]

I am shooting a mild load behind 175 smk's. I just looked on JBM and it would seem like mine are running ~2550 fps. Not real fast, but they shoot pretty good.

Isn't there a place in SW MO that has a shoot of some sort each month? Maybe, Big Piney or something like that.

 

[3DHUSKER]

I am shooting a mild load behind 175 smk's. I just looked on JBM and it would seem like mine are running ~2550 fps. Not real fast, but they shoot pretty good.

Isn't there a place in SW MO that has a shoot of some sort each month? Maybe, Big Piney or something like that.

Ah yep that would do it. Really if it shoots good that is all the matters.

Big Piney has one about every month. Never been there but have been talking to a couple of guys about checking it out.

Its about 2 hours east of me.

I like to shoot steel, not sure if they would allow that. I need to check. They shoot paper out to 800 if I remember right.

 

[grayghost]

I have the same scope on a 308 with a 20moa base, at 100yds zero my turret is almost bottomed out. I have almost the complete travel on elevation. 175 smk 43.6 varget winchester brass

 

[5R Milspec]

grayghost how high is the bottom of the bell from the barrel on your rifle.I ask for I too have the same or close to same amount of travel as the OP.If not wrong I have 42 MOA with my rifle/scope ( PST same as OP ) Plus this thread alone just has me woundering,like one said above with 65moa total travel giving 32.5moa half way.Now add in the 20moa base and one should end up with 52.5moa,taking the amount it takes to zero the scope with a said load.My scope ( guessing ) has about 3/16-1/4" space between the bottom of the bell to top of barrel.

I too ask how fast is your load running,for you are only running 1.6gn more than my load with everything else the same ( I guess ) my barrel is 24" and 11.250 twist ) as said before my load is running 2544fps.Just trying to see whats the difference between the set ups with same scopes with almost same mounts and rings

maybe one of us should call Vortex to see what up,who wants to call

 

[ArmyJerry]

It is one fine scope for most anyone, except the optics snobs.

Ok, thanks to everyone for your info. Appreciated. The scope was what I could afford at the time, so it's all I got for the time being. It tracks well and is very clear at full zoom...overall I'm happy considering the low cost. Just wish I had one more revolution of movement. If it comes to it, I'll buy new rail with 30+ MOA of cant.

 

[thrusty]

Thanks for the additional input everyone. You have me thinking....I'll take out all the shims, zero it out and see if there really is 65MOA of travel as advertised. I'll report back...

When I was speaking to the Vortex customer service person...I did mention that if I were to take off my 20MOA base and put on a ZERO cant rail that I would "theoretically" only have about 18MOA of elevation; I asked if that sounded typical...I felt like I stumped him on that one, but again, he went back to saying that it was the gun.

I'm not out to point fingers...If everything is how it should be, I'm cool with that...like I said, I'll buy a rail with more cant if need-be.

PS...I highly doubt it's my GAP rifle that's to blame. If not the scope, it could be that the R700 action needs the scope rail bedded......Or, it could be that I already have a ZERO cant rail - I have no way of knowing unless someone has some way of measuring it (it is stamped "Badger Ordnance 306-06" and Badger's zero cant rail's model # is 306-06F).

 

[5R Milspec]

I am with ya thrusty,if it is what it is I'll to just add more moa in a higher moa base.But one would think with the lowest set of rings my case ( tps low steel ) and a 20moa base it should alteast be closer to the 52.5moa range,rather than just getting 10 more from the base.This is why I asked Grayghost to what his setup was since his load is really close to mine.We will figure it out no matter what,to many great guys here to not be able to find out.

 

[thrusty]

Well... I checked it three times. I have 70.75MOA of total travel from bottoming it out to raising it till it stops.
It is what it is....

 

[Icallem]

That is confusing. You have the same total travel as mine, but 10 MOA less from a 100 yard zero. If yours was a 0 cant rail, why are we 10 MOA apart at the top side? Well, I have been confused before.

 

[mdavlee]

I had a pst in mil/mil mounted on a 338. With a 200 yard zero and a 20 moa rail I only had 11 mil left up. That was my only complaint about the scope itself.

 

[Icallem]

Icallem-- First, I am in SW MO. Do you have a local range to shoot at? I shoot on private ground most of the time.


I have a place near my house that I can get out to ~475. Also if the weather is right (ground not mud) I can go to a field in the river bottom and shoot to...... well, a long ways.

I'm about 4 hours from Springfield, but I'm not against traveling some ditance to get the chance to shoot.

 

[pinsandpitons]

I would call badger and ask them about the model number. It's possible that the F wasn't appended when it should have been. Worth a check. I too highly doubt "it's the rifle" but I suppose it's possible. Doesn't appear to be a travel issue, all that's left is the centering of the reticle in the erector or the base and receiver/barrel. PST's are a great value. I had a 4-16x50 Mil for a while. It was never what kept me from making hits, but super stringent quality control... no. I've seen some funky QC issues with them. All were taken care of quickly and with great customer service, but as I said you're not paying for 110% perfect from the factory.

 

[JoeGrine]

on my pst on a 0 moa base i run out of elivation around 800 yards.

 

[nnn66]

I just read through this thread and was wondering if the OP may have mounted the 20moa rail backwards and lost, rather than gained, elevation? When I mounted mine, it seemed that I was easily able to tell which was the high side by simply measuring with a micrometer. I'm having trouble understanding why he is uncertain as to whether his rail is actually 20 moa....can't you just measure it?

 

[thrusty]

I just read through this thread and was wondering if the OP may have mounted the 20moa rail backwards and lost, rather than gained, elevation? When I mounted mine, it seemed that I was easily able to tell which was the high side by simply measuring with a micrometer. I'm having trouble understanding why he is uncertain as to whether his rail is actually 20 moa....can't you just measure it?

This particular rail has an integrated recoil lug, you can't mount it backwards...it just wouldn't fit. Besides, the guys at GAP provided, cerakoted and mounted the rail on top of the R700 action that they trued and barreled....they put it on right...trust me.

I can't measure it because I don't know the specs of the rail - that I will get from Badger Ordnance...I'm gonna give them a call and see what Marty thinks.

 

[scudzuki]

It is possible that the barrel is not entirely straight (most are not) and that it was clocked in with the barrel pointing down.
A 20 MOA rail is theoretically 20 MOA canted from the bore centerline, but this assumes that the action face is exactly true and the barrel is exactly straight, and that the top of the action is machined perfectly.
It is just as possible that the reticle is not centered in the scope.
It's possible to determine this; remove the scope from the rings, center the erector in the travel, rig up a v-block that allows you to rotate the scope on its main tube, mount the v-block and sight through the scope on a distant object, rotate the scope 180 degrees, and if the reticle is centered, the horizontal stadia will paint the target at the same elevation; if it does not, count how many MOA it takes to get the stadia at the same level, and 1/2 the amount you dialed is how far off center the reticle is.

Regardless, if you have counted 70+ MOA of available elevation travel and are 32 MOA from the bottom at 100 yards (70-38) with a 20 MOA base then, assuming the base is really 20 MOA and is installed properly, you could replace it with a 40 MOA base and still be 12 MOA off the bottom at 100 yards. When the action is rebarreled someday, this may change, but for now, it's simple arithmetic.

I have a Bushnell ET6245FG whose reticle is 1.5 mils off center in the windage. I considered sending it in to have it fixed, then I installed it on an AR-15 upper (heavy target barrel) and apparently the rail is not straight on that upper; all but 1/2 mil cancelled out and now I have 7.5 mil one way and 6.5 the other, plenty for that rifle (or most for that matter).

Joe

 

[thrusty]

I'm going remount the rings and base tonight. I'll give the base a once-over to see if it needs bedded....

I called Badger Ordnance - they do, in fact, stamp all of their bases with unique model numbers depending on the amount of cant. ie: 20MOA bases will be stamped 306-06 and ZERO cant bases will be 306-06F
He also assured me that there is absoutly no way it is anything other than a 20MOA base if it is stamped the way it is on my base - this is due to their manufacturing process.

 

[thrusty]

Think I found at least one of the problems, if not THE problem. What do you guys think?

This is a photo of the rear of the base with only the front two screws in...I'm holding a flashlight behind the action. Looks like a couple hundredths of an inch clearance.

With only the two rear screws in, I can push down on the front of the base and see it move maybe 1/1000" or more.

I'm guessing I need to bed the rear of the base first, then bed the front. I know there's a good bedding video by Lonewolf USMC, just haven't found it yet. Anyone know the link?

 

[3DHUSKER]

Only bed the back

http://youtu.be/aoW5bHQqgis

 

[thrusty]

Thanks Husker...I just found the video myself and was about to post it.

 

[bodywerks]

Think I found at least one of the problems, if not THE problem. What do you guys think?

This is a photo of the rear of the base with only the front two screws in...I'm holding a flashlight behind the action. Looks like a couple hundredths of an inch clearance.

With only the two rear screws in, I can push down on the front of the base and see it move maybe 1/1000" or more.

I'm guessing I need to bed the rear of the base first, then bed the front. I know there's a good bedding video by Lonewolf USMC, just haven't found it yet. Anyone know the link?

Is that a flat base on a round receiver? I've never seen a fit that terrible.

 

[thrusty]

Is that a flat base on a round receiver? I've never seen a fit that terrible.

It's a typical Rem 700 action and Badger 20MOA base. The photo makes it look worse than what it really is because the photo is not very sharp. I would say there's about 0.015" gap between the base and action - just enough to let daylight through. Some Marine Tex should take care of it. Hopefully it will give me some elevation back in the scope.

 

[3DHUSKER]

It's a typical Rem 700 action and Badger 20MOA base. The photo makes it look worse than what it really is because the photo is not very sharp. I would say there's about 0.015" gap between the base and action - just enough to let daylight through.

Every one of my bases needed a bit of bedding. Scope should track better now that it is not bent in the middle and have more elevation.

 

[moochy28]

Great video, thanks for the info..

 

[nnn66]

Thrusty, I have the same scope, Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 ebr-1 moa/moa ffp mounted on my CZ550 HET 338 Lapua. I have Badger standard rings and a CZ 20moa rail. I just added the 20moa rail, so I zeroed it at 100 yards this morning. With zero at 100, I still have 48.5 moa of elevation left. Just thought I'd give you that info so you'd have another comparison.

 

[thrusty]

Finally got around to bedding the scope base and taking the gun out for some shooting.
I ended up gaining about 4 MOA of additional elevation from bedding the rear of the base - have a total of 42MOA of travel from my 100yrd zero now.
Good enough to make me happy and shoot one-hole groups. Thanks for everyone's input in this thread...