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Rifle Scopes Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Haagen_dazs

Haagen_dazs

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 9, 2011
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Canada
Hello friends to the south!

First of all, I love this site. I come here all the time when I cant find something one our Canadian site, CGN. I posted a thread there describing all the trouble I've been having with what looks like the most attractive scope in production: the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x56 FFP MRAD. Someone suggested I post here and maybe get a lead on what I'm doing wrong or what's going on with my turrets.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=660622 Original thread is linked here.


Portage052.jpg




It starts off with me saying how amazing Vortex Canada is on warrany issues:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I bought a Vortex PST scope off the EE, got here fine, went to the range to test it's fnction and sure enough the windage knob is totally f**ked (internal only, looks ok on the outside). In addition, the elevation doesnt track 0.1MRAD/click.




So I find the 1-866 number for Vortex Canada expecting a recording before talking to someone; however, who should answer the phone but a very friendly and knowledgable staff member!

I knew about the VIP warranty going into the conversation, but when I asked if she could send me a brand new scope so I could get back in the hunting game, she one-uped me and said as soon as she can confirm she's got one on the self (Monday hopefully), she'll keep it from being sent to a vendor (who's begging for them I'm sure) and ship it to me, as soon as I can provide her with a CP tracking number!



Absolutly unbelieveable! Here I am, a total stranger calling to ask to have a scope replaced, and they're sending me a brand new one once I send them any package with a tracking number!


I seriously hope these waranties can be found in other scope manufatures, otherwise I'll never get rid of my new scope (well, maybe for a Razor...)


Just an FYI</div></div>



They sent me a refurbished scope really fast; however, when I went to do a traking test, this one was even more messed up than the last. I sent it back as well and Vortex Canada sent it to the States for a detailed inspection:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got a call from Vortex USA. They say my scope is fine and (from what I understand) I was told that the turrests track in a circle, not a square; so that the amount of available windage adjustment decreases as you bring elevation adjustemnt to the maximum low/high.

Basically, the only time you can get full windage adjustment is when the reticle is centered, and due to my 20MOA base, the problems with my turrets are just design flaws.


I'm not sure if this is right, considering I had the reticle centered and the windage tracked very sloppy, but I'll take this new info and test out my scope when I get it back. If the turrets do track in a circle and they return the same crappy scope to me, I'll sell it no question. Move on to something that I know doesn't have s**tty turrets (Sightron SIII). </div></div>

I then recieved this letter too:
Portage059.jpg



So I must have been wrong, right? Well I've still been having issues, and I've tripple checked. This think simply will not track a 19.0 MRAD box. It will track a 19.0 MRAD 'plus stign' (+) but it cannot reach the corners, basically, <span style="font-weight: bold">it tracks in a circle</span>.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I just came back from the range today with the scope after it had been sent down to the States. It came with a letter saying there was nothing wrong with the turrets or edge distortion and sent it back to me (express post, much appreciated). The only problem with the whole process other than the turrets (which isn't really a waranty thing) was the fact they didn't return my CRS zero stop shims. I'll have to call them and get some more.


Anyway, like I said, just came back from the range and confirmed my fears; the turrets track in a circle, not a square. Basically, the windage would not track the whole 10 mils in each direction unless the elevation was centered. When I cranked the elevation all the way up and turned the windage, there was little resistance and the reticle did not move. When I turned the elevation down after making the windage adjustment, the reticle moved in a diagonal, following the scope tube I imagine.

Even though I didn't waste my time or money sending rounds down range this time, I'm absolutley 100% sure the turrets do not work as they should and acording to Vortex USA's response, this is normal. Because this is the second PST 6-24x50 MRAD FFP I've had that didn't track properly, I'm convinced this is a design flaw.




I'd love to hear from others with the scope. I know this isn't a problem if you're not using the windage knob as much or making short range shots with the reticle centered, but for me, I'd rather have a scope that tracked properly than FFP which is why I'll be looking for another Sightron, or perhaps upgrading to the S&B ranks. </div></div>
(The edge distortion at extreme elevation adjustments is probably due to the very long sunshade I think.)


So far I cannot find anyone with similar experiences (someone mentioned something about hunting turrets may have been put on by accident). Has anyone here had difficulty tracking a 19.0 MRAD box with their PST? Any help would be appreciated! I'm still planning on mapping exactly what it'll track but I'm on training ti'll March so it'll have to wait.


Thanks,
Kevin
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

No, but I have a Falcon 5-25x56 FFP MRAD in the mail. SHould be here any day.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Anyway, like I said, just came back from the range and confirmed my fears; the turrets track in a circle, not a square. Basically, the windage would not track the whole 10 mils in each direction unless the elevation was centered. When I cranked the elevation all the way up and turned the windage, there was little resistance and the reticle did not move. When I turned the elevation down after making the windage adjustment, the reticle moved in a diagonal, following the scope tube I imagine.</div></div>

Sounds like the internals are hitting the tube when you have the elevation at the extremes and try to track horizontally.

If that's the case, it sounds like they have a serious flaw in their design and aren't grasping the fact that it's a problem. That's troubling because what you're describing is what you often get when you take a scope that was designed as a hunting scope and just stick turrets on it.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

That's crazy that it's been triple checked, but still having tracking issues...

I'm sorta stumped.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

OK,
Here is the scoop guys. The reason this happens is because a scopes erector tube is round and it sits in a round tube. This is perfectly normal and happens in just about every scope out there that a tactical long range shooter including pretty much all the scopes commonly discussed on this forum. The only way to stop this from happening is to severely impede the overall travel of the scope.

In the end it just comes down to basic geometry. A circle(erector tube with size being around .800") in-cased in a larger circle(scope tube with I.D. about 1.000") can move freely inside that circle. In order for the smaller circle(erector tube) to move the shape of a square it would need to be restricted. Which this is possible to do ,but in the process you would give up a large amount of real estate in the larger circle(scope tube) and end up not having the amount of elevation that we shooters demand. Just picture a square(proportional to smaller circle) inside the larger circle(scope tube) and you will see just how much you will give up.


As I stated earlier this is very common and the reason that it generally is never brought up is- very seldom do we find our selves dialing even remotely close to the amount of windage travel that is available in most scopes.



I hope I have explained this in a simple enough fashion.




In regards to the OP scope. I personal checked this scope(as satated on the invoice) It performed flawlessly. Travel range and tracking was good. Passed side and verticle impact testing with no problem. I also mounted the scope and physically shot it to check real world function and it performed as well as it should have.

That being said if the OP is just not happy with the scope we will do everything we can to make him happy.


Scott
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

OP

How much windage do you get with reticle centered?

How much do you get with reticle at max elevation?
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselten</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OP

How much windage do you get with reticle centered?

How much do you get with reticle at max elevation? </div></div>



From my notes ,measuring on a collimator, this scope had 19.4 mils of total elevation and 19.3 of total windage and the reticle was withing .15 mils of being perfectly centered(which is very acceptable)


Scott
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

I shoot a number of Vortex scopes as well as many of my fellow club members from Nor Cal. No one has problems with their Vortex scopes.

Vortex, as well as most scope manufacturers have elaborate and expensive calibration tracking machines.

If your scope is screwed up, I'm 100% confident that Scott would of fixed it. I know Scott personally and he'd never bullshit you or send something back to you that was other than perfect.

Not to question your shooting ability, but why on earth would you need something more or close to 19 Mils of windage anyway?

Plus what Scott is describing is accurate that you cannot get anything to track in a "square" with the max adjustment when you are you are using the full area of a "round" tube.

All scopes from every manufacturer for what you are describing will do the same thing.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott_at_Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the end it just comes down to basic geometry. A circle(erector tube with size being around .800") in-cased in a larger circle(scope tube with I.D. about 1.000") can move freely inside that circle. In order for the smaller circle(erector tube) to move the shape of a square it would need to be restricted. Which this is possible to do ,but in the process you would give up a large amount of real estate in the larger circle(scope tube) and end up not having the amount of elevation that we shooters demand. Just picture a square(proportional to smaller circle) inside the larger circle(scope tube) and you will see just how much you will give up.</div></div>

So, would a scope built like this:

2743.jpg


be less affected than one built like this:

weaver3602.jpg
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/weaver3602.jpg

There seems to be more space between the erector tube and the scope tube...
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

kombayotch,
Both scopes pictured will still do what the OP described, but the top scope would just have more overall physical erector tube travel.

A way to not have this happen would be to have limiters or stops, in both directions, on the elevation and windage turrets that would allow the erector to move no more than the square we were discussing earlier.



Scott
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

It appears that the top scope does have those limiters, does it not?
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott_at_Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselten</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OP

How much windage do you get with reticle centered?

How much do you get with reticle at max elevation? </div></div>



From my notes ,measuring on a collimator, this scope had 19.4 mils of total elevation and 19.3 of total windage and the reticle was withing .15 mils of being perfectly centered(which is very acceptable)


Scott </div></div>

19.3 mils of windage with reticle centered. How much windage with elevation all. The way up? In other words, how much do you loose?
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

What Scott @ Vortex is describing is spot on with everything I've ever experienced as well. He's done a great job explaining it and I know that Vortex would fix it if there was an issue.

The problem here is that these "issues" would never show up in real world shooting. No one cranks a scope all the way up for its elevation travel and then dials 9 or 10 mils for wind. It's time to go home if you have to dial that much wind, call it a day. These "issues" only show up when sitting at a bench at 100 yards (or meters) and trying to hit every dot on a huge piece of paper. What matters is finding your zero, then do some elevation only tracking test, then if you want go ahead and track windage for a mil or two tops imho. Dial for elevation, hold for wind.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Square scope tube, huh?
Maybe I can get some custom rings from Seekins?
Who will be in for the group buy on my new square tactical scope? Anyone?

jasonk,
Spot on my friend. Some days you just have to fuck it and move on.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Square scope tube, huh?
Maybe I can get some custom rings from Seekins?
Who will be in for the group buy on my new square tactical scope? Anyone?

jasonk,
Spot on my friend. Some days you just have to fuck it and move on.
</div></div>

I think Sightron has the erector tube like a cube where the adjusters touch, the portion where light travels is still a circle. and it is only in the spot where the adjusters touch.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears that the top scope does have those limiters, does it not? </div></div>Not that I see. If you are referring to the C-clamps on the turret screws, those are simply to keep the turret from screwing all the way out of the scope. Not that anyone would ever do that
smile.gif




Scott
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Scott,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to this topic. In no way am I trying to call BS on Vortex; my experience with you guys has been great and I feel embarased having wasted this much of your time. Indeed I keep wishing I've been doing something wrong but evertime I get a new idea, the scope does not live up to my expectations.

The reason why I'm still not satisfied is due to some people telling me their PST tracks a 19.0 MRAD box and yet time after time I check mine and it cannot. I agree that the scope is still usable but what bothers me the most is that if the windage knob is turned when the erector tube is all the way up, it will track on what looks like a diagonal along the scope tube when the elevation is dialed down. It's become clear that I need to map out exactly what the scope tracks and not exceed that.


I'm not very experienced with different brads but I certantly remember not having this issue with the 3 other non-Vortex scopes I've owned. I currently have a Falcon in the mail and am more than eager to put it to the same test to see if this is a traditional short-coming of various scopes or if it more to do with a brand name.


Again, thank-you for your time clearing this up for all of us. Do you know if the Razers track differently than the PSTs? I just may have to buck up go that route!



Kevin
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason why I'm still not satisfied is due to some people telling me their PST tracks a 19.0 MRAD box and yet time after time I check mine and it cannot. I agree that the scope is still usable but what bothers me the most is that if the windage knob is turned when the erector tube is all the way up, it will track on what looks like a diagonal along the scope tube when the elevation is dialed down. It's become clear that I need to map out exactly what the scope tracks and not exceed that.


I'm not very experienced with different brads but I certantly remember not having this issue with the 3 other non-Vortex scopes I've owned. I currently have a Falcon in the mail and am more than eager to put it to the same test to see if this is a traditional short-coming of various scopes or if it more to do with a brand name.
</div></div>
Your peeps may be describing the "box" as a "cross" as both, including your description, have four points. The industry standard is max adjustment range x,y with the erector cell centered, as previously stated.

The "box" test is more a test of repeatability and the optic is also returned and tested to centered reference POI. It is not a contest for the largest volume of POI bullet impacts spread across at range. Also, consider the use of canted bases in application to obtain more vertical or elevation adjustment while there is no practical care about loss of windage given adequate symmetrical adjustment range. Just as this optic does in non-mortar applications.

Different <larger> diameter optic tubes can sometimes be misleading vs. real travel; the "limitations" you observe against stated specifications are common and not a issue given adequate vertical range in your application.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Haagen_dazs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to this topic. In no way am I trying to call BS on Vortex; my experience with you guys has been great and I feel embarased having wasted this much of your time. Indeed I keep wishing I've been doing something wrong but evertime I get a new idea, the scope does not live up to my expectations.

The reason why I'm still not satisfied is due to some people telling me their PST tracks a 19.0 MRAD box and yet time after time I check mine and it cannot. I agree that the scope is still usable but what bothers me the most is that if the windage knob is turned when the erector tube is all the way up, it will track on what looks like a diagonal along the scope tube when the elevation is dialed down. It's become clear that I need to map out exactly what the scope tracks and not exceed that.


I'm not very experienced with different brads but I certantly remember not having this issue with the 3 other non-Vortex scopes I've owned. I currently have a Falcon in the mail and am more than eager to put it to the same test to see if this is a traditional short-coming of various scopes or if it more to do with a brand name.


Again, thank-you for your time clearing this up for all of us. Do you know if the Razers track differently than the PSTs? I just may have to buck up go that route!



Kevin </div></div>



Kevin,
I totally understand where you are coming from. The problem is that unfortunately you have either been misled or you have possibly misunderstood what people are saying.

I can assure you that your previous three vortex scopes and our Razor(although it has twice the amount of maximum travel) will do the exact same thing this one is just as a $3000 riflescopes will also do this.

Now(without getting too technical)most scopes, especially higher magnification tactical scopes need as much room for erector travel as possible in order to have the amount of elevation travel that us shooters need and demand. So what this leads to is scope companies using as much real estate in the scope tube as we possibly can. For example, a lot/most scopes will adjust the erector all the way up to the scope tube itself when maxed out. When this happens it will severely impede the amount of windage travel. This is what I was describing in my previous post.

All in all what I am trying to say is that what you are experiencing is going to happen to just about any scope with very few exceptions and nothing long range tactical shooters would be interested in.


If you are still concerned you can call me at the office anytime. 800-426-0048





Scott
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott_at_Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Kevin,
I totally understand where you are coming from. The problem is that unfortunately you have either been misled or you have possibly misunderstood what people are saying.

I can assure you that your previous three vortex scopes and our Razor(although it has twice the amount of maximum travel) will do the exact same thing this one is just as a $3000 riflescopes will also do this.

Now(without getting too technical)most scopes, especially higher magnification tactical scopes need as much room for erector travel as possible in order to have the amount of elevation travel that us shooters need and demand. So what this leads to is scope companies using as much real estate in the scope tube as we possibly can. For example, a lot/most scopes will adjust the erector all the way up to the scope tube itself when maxed out. When this happens it will severely impede the amount of windage travel. This is what I was describing in my previous post.

All in all what I am trying to say is that what you are experiencing is going to happen to just about any scope with very few exceptions and nothing long range tactical shooters would be interested in.


If you are still concerned you can call me at the office anytime. 800-426-0048





Scott </div></div>

now thats customer service. it was 10:30 pm in indiana when scott made that post. im not sure the wisconsin time diffrence but you know this man is at home with his family, but he still takes the time to come on a internet forum and support average joe blow customer.

big +1
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

I agree the likelihood of needing a large amount windage is not practical in shooting. However one thing that concerns me is the diagonal movement when dialing windage at extremes and the scope holding zero when messed with at windage and elevation extremes:

Let's say someone has zeroed their scope and decides to mess with the turrets. He takes elevation to it's max (let's say 15 mils) and then tries the windage. He turns it so the reticle moves diagonally like what happened with the OP. For examples sake let's say the diagonal movement has caused the reticle to move 1mil elevation down as well as 1 mil windage(either direction). Now he takes the scope back to zero, dialing however much windage he moved it as well as back down 15 mils to his zero. The scope has now traveled 16 mils down (due to the diagonal movement) while his turrets will have only moved 15 mils. His zero is now off by one mil and he won't know it.

I am not singling the PST out on this example as this applies to any scope that has diagonal movement of the reticle when only one turret is turned.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lennyo3034</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree the likelihood of needing a large amount windage is not practical in shooting. However one thing that concerns me is the diagonal movement when dialing windage at extremes and the scope holding zero when messed with at windage and elevation extremes:

Let's say someone has zeroed their scope and decides to mess with the turrets. He takes elevation to it's max (let's say 15 mils) and then tries the windage. He turns it so the reticle moves diagonally like what happened with the OP. For examples sake let's say the diagonal movement has caused the reticle to move 1mil elevation down as well as 1 mil windage(either direction). Now he takes the scope back to zero, dialing however much windage he moved it as well as back down 15 mils to his zero. The scope has now traveled 16 mils down (due to the diagonal movement) while his turrets will have only moved 15 mils. His zero is now off by one mil and he won't know it.

I am not singling the PST out on this example as this applies to any scope that has diagonal movement of the reticle when only one turret is turned. </div></div>

That shouldn't be a problem, as the erector springs should bring it back in line once you dial back down. The reason why the reticle is tracking diagonally at the extreme end of travel is the inner erector tube is pushed up against the outer tube and if you dial windage in that situation the erector tube will either move from the pressure applied or the knob will jam up. If the erector moves, since it can't move directly across (as it is already pressing on the outer tube, it must move diagonally. Not hard to understand, once you visualize what is happening.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

I am trying save up for a Vortex scope but not having much luck with the cost of living rising all the time.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Do you guys really think you will get full windage travel when at the top of elevation? No way it will happen. The scope tube is round so as you dial up you will lose windage. Doesn't matter what scope. This is why you try and keep the least amount of windage needed when zeroing so it doesn't push the erector to the left or right and limit your elevation.

Here's a very horrible paint I just quickly made to explain in pictures. The black is the tube, the red is your max elevation and windage at 19 mils, the green is what you are trying to do. Notice it goes outside the tube? That can't happen.
scopetrack-1.png
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lennyo3034</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree the likelihood of needing a large amount windage is not practical in shooting. However one thing that concerns me is the diagonal movement when dialing windage at extremes and the scope holding zero when messed with at windage and elevation extremes:

Let's say someone has zeroed their scope and decides to mess with the turrets. He takes elevation to it's max (let's say 15 mils) and then tries the windage. He turns it so the reticle moves diagonally like what happened with the OP. For examples sake let's say the diagonal movement has caused the reticle to move 1mil elevation down as well as 1 mil windage(either direction). Now he takes the scope back to zero, dialing however much windage he moved it as well as back down 15 mils to his zero. The scope has now traveled 16 mils down (due to the diagonal movement) while his turrets will have only moved 15 mils. His zero is now off by one mil and he won't know it.

I am not singling the PST out on this example as this applies to any scope that has diagonal movement of the reticle when only one turret is turned. </div></div>


Your zero will not shift,it will go back to what ever you have your zero set at.


Scott
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Well I think it's safe to say there are a few lessons learned here (for me at least):


1) Vortex's customer support is seccond to none.

2) Map out your scope's turrets capabilities, regardless of brandname.

3) Vortex products are in high demand and retain their value; a new buyer should not second guess their decision to buy one of these scopes.


I'll be on the lookout for a deal on a Razor. As far as I'm concerned, other brand names have yet to release a scope as attractive as these 2!
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

This has been an awesome thread to follow in many ways.
First, Scott (and everyone there) at Vortex has done a great job in explaining the inner workings of rifle scopes. Honestly, I've never thought about the things brought up here. I have always just put my stock in buying scopes who give me the most "overall" travel, toughest components and best glass for the $$ spent. Usually NF wins my $$ but Vortex has recently been getting the nod. Things like this are the reason why too.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Scott, out of curiosity - what's the dimensions (in MIL) of the "inner box" for PST and for Razor HD?

<span style="font-style: italic">I feel too lazy now to come up with the formulas, perhaps you have them at your fingertips? So that I can take into account my base cant, total adjustment range, the offset from center (or from bottom) taken to zero the scope, and determine how much windage I could dial at what elevation adjustment?

Thanks!!</span>
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

You definitely wouldn't want that inner box area to be your max ranges. It would seriously cut down on the travel. As to figuring what you want I think it would be tough to be right on as not every scope is exactly the same. It is a good point as to why using a base with MOA in it is a good idea as it puts the 100 yard zero down towards the bottom of the adjustment where alot of windage isn't needed and as you dial up you are getting more windage.

I am sure if there was a way to get all the travel then Scott and the crew at Vortex would have done it. They know more about how a scope works and the ins and outs of it than any of us do, myself included.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Edit: It was pointed out to me that my posts were inappropriate since this is considered "another manufacturer's thread". Nevermind.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

No sense in trying to re explain to everyone what Scott has explained.

Its just the facts!!

What is happening is 100% perfectly normal in any scope.

Remember you cant stuff a square peg in a round hole!!
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Edit: It was pointed out to me that my posts were inappropriate since this is considered "another manufacturer's thread". Nevermind.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have outlined the subject before in this post.

Having the "tube inside a tube"-effect may be common for most scopes and probably should be expected in the more affordable ones, and depending on the use, it may never be a problem.

It is not true though that this is something that happens in <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> scope. I can only speak for Premier scopes in this respect, but I can tell you that you that the specified travel range is fully rectangular with these scopes and you will get the full specified windage adjustment at all elevation settings. After all, when will you ever need to max out your windage except for at long range when the elevation is maxed out, too? What is even more important is the fact that you cannot damage the erector by pushing it against the tube wall with this setup since there is a positive stop at the limits of the travel range and not some squeaky-crackling noise. Interesting that "noone" else seems to regard this as a problem worth fixing. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is happening is 100% perfectly normal in any scope.

Remember you cant stuff a square peg in a round hole!!</div></div>
This is simply not true in this context and repeating it won't make it any more true. To put it in simple words, the turrets track <span style="font-weight: bold">vertical</span> and <span style="font-weight: bold">horizontal</span>, and those two directions together create a <span style="font-weight: bold">box</span> which is <span style="font-weight: bold">rectangular</span> (or square). The difficulty is having enough space in the round hole so that a pretty big square peg will still fit in, but don't tell people this can't be done. </div></div>

So you are saying that when the elevation is maxed out on a Premier scope that you have the same full amount of windage as you do when the elevation is in the centered of the tube?

Or are you saying you designed it so that you get a limited amount of windage at center elevation and that stays the same all the way up like a rectangle?
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Well thanks for clearing that up!! I think most of us understand that. I guess i really needed to reinvent the wheel with my comments.

The point is you can only have so big of a square or rectangle inside the diameter of the circular tube in which everything will move freely.

So tube size and the amount of travel allowed by the thread pitch is what limits you.

So either way once again this will happen when you try to maximize the amount of travel for windage and or elevation.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Edit: It was pointed out to me that my posts were inappropriate since this is considered "another manufacturer's thread". Nevermind.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you are saying that when the elevation is maxed out on a Premier scope that you have the same full amount of windage as you do when the elevation is in the centered of the tube?</div></div>
That ist correct. When the spec sheet says 34 mils of elevation and +/- 10 mils of windage that is what you get, you can run the reticle along the borders of a 34x20 mrad box on the target.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or are you saying you designed it so that you get a limited amount of windage at center elevation and that stays the same all the way up like a rectangle?</div></div>
I wouldn't want to take credit for that all by myself, but yes. In fact, you have to limit the elevation travel in the same way to get a rectangular travel range. If you want to call it a "limited" amount of travel, so be it, but again, what you see on the spec sheet is what you get, and you don't have to worry about whether those specs are really valid for your application.

</div></div>

Ok. I am going to have someone with a Premier scope and collimator check it and will get back here and post the results.

Most scope makers when they list elevation and windage it's listed as <span style="font-weight: bold">maximum</span> when centered. When you add in windage when zeroing it cuts that number as it pushes the erector either right or left and cuts the amount of available elevation.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Edit: It was pointed out to me that my posts were inappropriate since this is considered "another manufacturer's thread". Nevermind.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Obviously you cannot track a square in a circular scope tube; however, the errector tube (on the Premier) is not inside a tube, it is indeed a square:

PICT0148.jpg


The space that holds the reticle is bulged out to make a square, which explains why we can track a box.



When you look at a Vortex PST, it looks more like a circle which may explain the issue at hand:
DSC00396.JPG



This is why I have high hopes for my Falcon; it seems they have a square-shapped "saddle" as they call it:
4menace1.jpg



Taking a look at the Sightron SIII, I have heard reputable target shooters confirm they track a proper box. Looking at the "saddle", it looks more boxy than the Vortex which may have something to do with it.
Sightron-SIII-Target-Turrets-7.jpg
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Edit: It was pointed out to me that my posts were inappropriate since this is considered "another manufacturer's thread". Nevermind.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have outlined the subject before in this post.

Having the "tube inside a tube"-effect may be common for most scopes and probably should be expected in the more affordable ones, and depending on the use, it may never be a problem.

It is not true though that this is something that happens in <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> scope. I can only speak for Premier scopes in this respect, but I can tell you that you that the specified travel range is fully rectangular with these scopes and you will get the full specified windage adjustment at all elevation settings. After all, when will you ever need to max out your windage except for at long range when the elevation is maxed out, too? What is even more important is the fact that you cannot damage the erector by pushing it against the tube wall with this setup since there is a positive stop at the limits of the travel range and not some squeaky-crackling noise. Interesting that "noone" else seems to regard this as a problem worth fixing. </div></div>

I suspected this was the case with the Premier because I box tested the 5-25x at it's top limit before switching the rail to one with more cant. I never experienced what the OP described...
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

It all just means that Vortex is giving you the max elevation adjustment that is physically possible within the diameter of the scope and the others that do track square at their max adjustment are not .
Vortex understands that it is better to dial for elevation and hold off for wind .
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Here's a non-value added post from me but just had to jump in and say I love my PST scope and thank you Scott for posting in this thread and standing behind your product!! No offense, but I hope I never have to talk to you...hehe ;-)
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

After reading this thread I got motivated to headed to my favorite local scope dealer (SWFA) and get a Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP which comes as you all know, with the ERB Mrad reticle. Very nice! I was very tempted to get another SWFA 5-20 (which I know I will buy another in the near future), but I thought this time around I'd give the PST a try and experience it for myself. Besides after I read Scott_at-Vortex's response I thought to myself "now that's service".

And I was delighted to read in their information booklet that they have an outstanding warranty policy. Just call them Vortex will provides unconditional lifetime warranty. No receipts required, warranty warranty cards are not required. Warranty is fully transferable to whomever I sell (or gift) the scope too. My equipment usually go to my sons, so don't PM me that you want it after I'm done with it! LOL.

I'm not sure if I will be able to get out this weekend to the range as we have guests for the weekend. I'm excited about the scope. I hope it works for me as it has for so many others. Thanks Vortex, I can't wait to try it out soon.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Radar86</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading this thread I got motivated to headed to my favorite local scope dealer (SWFA) and get a Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP which comes as you all know, with the ERB Mrad reticle. Very nice! I was very tempted to get another SWFA 5-20 (which I know I will buy another in the near future), but I thought this time around I'd give the PST a try and experience it for myself. Besides after I read Scott_at-Vortex's response I thought to myself "now that's service".

And I was delighted to read in their information booklet that they have an outstanding warranty policy. Just call them Vortex will provides unconditional lifetime warranty. No receipts required, warranty warranty cards are not required. Warranty is fully transferable to whomever I sell (or gift) the scope too. My equipment usually go to my sons, so don't PM me that you want it after I'm done with it! LOL.

I'm not sure if I will be able to get out this weekend to the range as we have guests for the weekend. I'm excited about the scope. I hope it works for me as it has for so many others. Thanks Vortex, I can't wait to try it out soon. </div></div>
How about adoption then ?
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

After reading this thread i made up my mind to buy 2 6x24 pst ffp.
It seems the cust service is awesome with vortex. For scott to give up his personal time with his family to help us understand the workings of there product says alot about there commitment to there customers.
 
Re: Vortex PST Turret Tracking Issue...

Who would be shooting a billion yards in a huricane force winds anyway?
 
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