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Rifle Scopes Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

Flickster12

Private
Minuteman
Apr 15, 2011
2
0
43
West Chester, Ohio
I’ve recently been tasked with researching and putting together a proposal and purchase order for new scopes for our SWAT snipers. We currently use older Leupold Vari-X 3.5-10 scopes, and have recently begun experiencing problems with the scopes (not holding zero, poor tracking, etc.). Unfortunately, I believe price will be a primary concern of the administration when determining which scopes to purchase. For this reason, I have selected three different scopes, each at various price ranges. My first request in the higher price range is the Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x56. Second request in the middle price range is the Leupold Mark IV LR/T 4.5-14x50. The track record of both these companies speaks for themselves and I have no concerns with either of these products.

The lowest priced option I’ve identified is the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP. This scope seems to have every option we could want or ever use for our purposes. My only concern is that “you get what you pay for”. Durability of any scopes we purchase is a primary concern due to department finances. These scopes will be expected to last for the next 15 plus years, as the Leupolds did. Are there any law enforcement agencies that currently use these scopes and can provide feedback on their performance/durability? Is this a viable option for law enforcement snipers? Any and all feedback would be appreciated.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

The word is still out on the durability and reliability of the PST line.
Also. getting your hands on one let alone several is problematic.

Vortex IS marketing them as a tactical scope worthy of LE use, but then so is Millet.

Is there any reason you have not considered sending your current scopes back to Luepold for repair? You could have the tracking and zero issues fixed (for free) and a TMR reticle installed in each one for about 160 bucks.
The zero issue is probably just a matter of replacing the springs. Personally, I prefer more than 10x mag, but this might be a good fix until the PST's prove themselves.

Also consider the new Weaver tactical 3-15x illuminated reticle. They have gotten excellent reviews and according to SOME the glass is better than the PST 4-16.

 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

I would heavily push for the NXS, as it is easily the more superior scope out of the group. For the few hundred dollars more, you can have a scope that is lightyears better than the Mark4.

As far as the PST, I believe that the scope still bears some scrutiny. I honestly do think that my current PST would be a good LE scope based on features, optical quality and ability. However, I haven't been able to really test the durability yet, and that is the most important thing. I would want to bash the scope around in the field for a week before saying that it's there. If it handles it, I'd be comfortable fielding it. The tracking has been true and the optical quality is better than the Mark4.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

Knowing how Law enf. agencies tend to work and the people making most of the decisions I would have suggested an NXS or better first with Leupold being the lowest grade I would consider. If you open up the option of a PST, for less money, then thats the way they will choose. Can you trust a PST with your life? There are far too many scopes, with a proven track record, in service throughout hundreds if not thousands of Departments to consider a scope just released a couple of months ago.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cuffm4615</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Knowing how Law enf. agencies tend to work and the people making most of the decisions I would have suggested an NXS or better first with Leupold being the lowest grade I would consider. If you open up the option of a PST, for less money, then thats the way they will choose. Can you trust a PST with your life? There are far too many scopes, with a proven track record, in service throughout hundreds if not thousands of Departments to consider a scope just released a couple of months ago. </div></div>

+1...I wouldnt even mention the Viper PST until all other options for more proven optics have been exhausted.

Then if they still want to go cheap ask them if you were this woman which optic would you want me to take the shot with?
hostage.jpg
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

Situation where your life or another's life depends on your scope... you cannot skimp. Pay the money for the right scope. Right now, the cheapest scope I'd trust *MY* life to is a Vortex Razor.

YMMV

John
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm definately going to take everyone's advice, aim high, and only request the NSX. If they balk at the price then I'll re-assess.

Regarding sending our current Leupolds back to the factory for repairs. I believe we are still planning on doing that and keeping them as spares. The reason for our request is to get more magnification, better glass, and some upgraded features.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JasonFlick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm definately going to take everyone's advice, aim high, and only request the NSX. If they balk at the price then I'll re-assess.

Regarding sending our current Leupolds back to the factory for repairs. I believe we are still planning on doing that and keeping them as spares. The reason for our request is to get more magnification, better glass, and some upgraded features. </div></div>

Keep us posted as to the results...And use that pic I posted as a visual aid...
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cuffm4615</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Knowing how Law enf. agencies tend to work and the people making most of the decisions I would have suggested an NXS or better first with Leupold being the lowest grade I would consider. </div></div>
I would have to wholeheartedly agree. More often than not, the people making the purchasing decisions have no inkling of understanding of how optics works, and why there's a difference in price. Hell, our own snipers don't even know the difference in quality between a Mark4 and a NXS or USO. Two of them honestly think that Mark4 is top of the food chain.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

Sounds like good advice here. I would (and recently have in our department) go with the NSX 3.5-15x56. It is not only top quality glass, but the 56mm objective is superior for lower light deployments.

The PST may prove to be an excellent optic, but it is too early to tell. When lives are on the line I want the proven track record. Nightforce provides this.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

I spoke with the OP who is a co-worker and he agrees we need to reformat the question slightly. Our snipers unanimously agree regarding the advantages of the NXS line over the other mentioned alternatives and we remain committed in stressing the NXS as our 1st choice; however many times in our line of work budgets come into play more than we would like. Unfortunately, the difference in savings, when taking into account purchases of 4 or more, between the PST and Mark 4 lines can be substantial and thought provoking. With this in mind, we would like to hear from individuals or teams who could attest to the quality, functionality and durability of the PST line exceeding that of the Mark 4. We realize this is a "tall" order due to the relative "newness" of the PST but believe this line warrants a proper analysis due to the features and price point. If anyone is able to provide contact information regarding particular individuals or teams (LEO or military) who utilize the Vortex brand and more specifically the PST line, we would like to contact them and hear their thoughts. Thanks.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

Ranger, Jason,

I think you're going to be hard pressed to find *anyone* who has enough time with the PST to really give valuable feedback with regard to its durability. Functionality and quality you should be able to glean from some of the reviews here. If you want to PM me, I can give you my personal experience with them.

You might also take a look at the Weaver 3-15 Tactical. It too is FFP and available in MOA/mil and mil/mil versions. It is a very solid and functional scope that gives up only a zero stop to the PST. Street price is about $750. The Moa/mil version has been out there for awhile and according to Weaver's site is targeted at LEO/military applications. It is possible that there are departments that have used them and may be able to give you the feedback vs. MkIV you desire.

Good luck.

John
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

Listen, the first time I paid much attention, the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police centerpunched a bank robber on a windy March afternoon from a lousy 75 yards from across the street, through the door glass.

Never heard of a crook having such a huge stand-off distance that some uber-optic would do better than an old Weaver K4. The LEO just has to know the zero.

I'm just grumpy and skeptical tonight.

I also believe that civilians need full-auto arms a LOT more than LEO organizations do. Hard to find a law enforcement raid or arrest or other instance where that many rounds going downrange and endangering the rest of the community was both needed and made a difference. I'm not so picky when it's time to resist invasion or tyranny.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

MAP for the 3.5-15x56 is $1547.00 if your buying 4 you can get a better price. Sell your current scopes for 450-475. Your really not going to need to keep a spare with the NFs. You are at $1072.00 The MSRP for the Vortex is $949.00 so your now $123.00 appart. I would bet if you call any NF dealer on the hide you could close the gap. Plus you would have complete piece of mind.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of companies give discounts for law enforcement agencies, especially if they are ordering multiple units.
Another suggestion is to have your first proposal be USO or something. That way most of the sticker shock will have been used up by a $3000 scope and perhaps a $1500 scope won't scare them as much. (keep in mind this idea was thought up by some dude siting at his computer, if it sounds like a bad idea to you then don't do it)
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3bnRanger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I spoke with the OP who is a co-worker and he agrees we need to reformat the question slightly. Our snipers unanimously agree regarding the advantages of the NXS line over the other mentioned alternatives and we remain committed in stressing the NXS as our 1st choice; however many times in our line of work budgets come into play more than we would like. Unfortunately, the difference in savings, when taking into account purchases of 4 or more, between the PST and Mark 4 lines can be substantial and thought provoking. With this in mind, we would like to hear from individuals or teams who could attest to the quality, functionality and durability of the PST line exceeding that of the Mark 4. We realize this is a "tall" order due to the relative "newness" of the PST but believe this line warrants a proper analysis due to the features and price point. If anyone is able to provide contact information regarding particular individuals or teams (LEO or military) who utilize the Vortex brand and more specifically the PST line, we would like to contact them and hear their thoughts. Thanks. </div></div>

Ranger as mentioned before it is highly unlikely you will find a Dept. currently using Vipers. I would suggest you prepare your presentation geared around "LIABILITY" and how much it would cost them, in a law suit, if something went wrong due to a piece of equipment not only unproven but not in use by any other law enforcement body. Then consider that everything posted here can easily be "googled" by any lawyer in the future and any statements warning the lack of testing will easily be accessible to them. I would also contact a few neighboring agencies, find out what they are carrying, and if needed have your brass speak to those dept.s and see why it is they carry those items.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST for law enforcement?

I'm not with any sort of agency, but I have had a good bit of trigger time behind a Nightforce 5.5-22X50 and have been trying to spend some quality time with my 6-24X50 PST. I'm not even going to get into glass quality, resolution etc. We known that the glass of the NF doesn't suck and that of the PST is very good, especially for the price point.

Still, I can make a few comments about other areas. First, I've gotta say that I'm the kind of person that just finds himself in out of the ordinary situations and, at least, make an attempt to try to be prepared for whatever it is that I might find myself in, however seldom these circumstances may occur.

When I first got my PST, I shot with it, like anyone else would. Then I got into really using it. Making adjustments and trying to mimick situations that I might find myself in. Based on my limited experience, I can make these comments.

The NF is very robust. Making adjustments with the knobs is very ergonomic, even with winter gloves on. The clicks are not fine, but are positive. What ever it is that they use for detents must be relatively large. When you go from one click to the next, you know that you've gone one click. It takes a purposeful manipulation of the knob to move it more than one click, as well. I also like the fact that when you dial in the magnification, the whole eye piece moves. Some don't like this because it makes the use of flip ups a bit inconvenient. Still, I find it useful for when adjusting the magnification, especially from a prone position. You just grab the eye piece and twist. What I did for a rear cap was to just purchase another one of the stock lens covers, cut the strap in the center and use zip ties to affix the strap to the body of my scope so that I can't loose the eye piece cover and I use a flip up for the front.

With the PST, I found that it was an overall nicely built scope, but...the knobs were a bit smaller with fine knurling that I found has the propensity to grab stuff like loose clothing or sweater type material, sleeves. The detents in the dials are also much finer. Going up 1moa in a hurry took really paying attention to what you were doing so that you wouldn't over shoot it. Dialing in the knobs kind of reminded me of the volume control that was on a stereo that I had years ago. They were very positive, but fine. Using heavy gloves made everything feel unsure. When trying to dial up a MOA real quick, I had to look at the knob to make sure that I didn't over shoot it. I also don't like the fast focus eye piece. I mean, it's fine for a range or hunting rifle, but I don't like the chance that it can be inadvertently adjusted and need readjusting. For me, focusing the reticle of the scope is a set it and forget it thing.

On my PST, the first time I sent it back, they gave me a new elevation knob because the fiber optic insert was off. On the new knob, it's still off. I mean, the very end of the insert does correspond with the "0" on the knob, but it doesn't lead into the center of the top of the knob. Not a big deal and don't know that it will ever matter, but it is there nonetheless. Another thing I found was that I can set the zero on the knob so that it lines up perfectly with the hash mark on the scope body, but when I dial up, by the time I get to "7" or so, the hash mark on the knob no longer lines up with the hash mark on the body of the scope. In use, I did a box test and all seemed fine, but when you get to the point where the marks don't line up any longer and you're in a hurry, you kind of have to ask yourself, "ok, did I go up 7 moa or 7.25 moa?", which kind of sucks.

These were just some of the observations that I made when working with the PST. Of course, being cursed, as I am, mine is making its second trip back to Vortex. When I get it back, I may be able to add more, but for the time being, it is being relegated to rimfire duty. I'm stick with Nightforce for my centerfire rifles. Right now, I just feel that there's less of a chance of finding myself SOL with the NF.

As I said, I am just cursed. My past experiences with Vortex have been very positive and I'm sure that the experience that I'm having with my PST is far from being the norm. If the negatives that I pointed out wouldn't bother you, the PST is a nice scope. I just don't think that it is as robust as the NSX, nor should it be at the price point.

As for the problems that I had with my PST, I'll see if they fix them this time.