hi, what barrel did you order?
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
Sounds like that may be a 50 yard group size, but you can compare by going to the 6x5 thread in this section, and under current results, you can compare with other rifles at 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards, etc. It's a nice set of data for any group size comparisions.
Good luck with the new rifle.
RFS99
I do the same, except for the tuner. There are some plastic parts that don't like ultrasonic leaners. But for the bolt's part, it is very good, but not too much often. Don't put any lubricant within the bolts, only a small grease applied with your fingers on some parts of the bolt in contact.
Already, i have also a 2500x and the turbo give more points, with the same barrel (Ratchet R5)
As Bill calfee said, the MD/PAS system is in theory superior as ignition system
With the same ammo, i got a 250 and 13x while turbo is 250 and 19x
Yes the test group was fired at 100yds off a front bag using center X . The barrel is one provided by Vudoo by agreement to Hill Country Rifles in New Braunfels Texas and the manufacturer was not told to me ….. but I’m not going to argue with success .137 is better than these old eyes can shoot
.137" is 3.48mm. The best ever test in the Lapua test tunnel is something in the 9mm range at 50 yards. Of course everyone can show that three shot group in one hole.
Not directed at you, but what they are telling you is BS. Have them shoot 40 rounds at 50 yards and tell us what the result is.
That's interesting, looking at the big name shoots this year and following along on Calfees site MD/PAS ignition is proving itself. That being said, I like my Vudoo better and will be trying to kick ass in 2022 against the Turbo's. Two years in a row I have won the club championship one with a V22 and this year with a new V22S. There were 2 new 2500x and several Turbos, one had won the state championship. The stillers had a shilen and muller barrels. In the factory class the Tikka Tx1 is taking top honors with great scores. I purchased one couples of weeks ago and over the weekend took the bolt apart and that is also pin around spring. By the way what does MD stand for? Have you read Calfees book it's a great read?
I didn't put the dial part of the tuner in the cleaner. I thought that might be pushing it too far. Are there plastic parts in the dial part of the Harrell tuner? I do use a gun oil on the bolt called Gun Pro it's sold by Krieghoff and I use on their guns. I use 12 and 20 gage swabs with Gun Pro to give the bolt bore a wipe they work pretty good, I cut a small oval piece of rubber to put in front of the chamber to protect it from the swab going into far.
My bullets are .2245
I just relayed what they told me and I take it at just that. How it shoots is how it shoots for me figures just figures that make discussion. The proof in the pudding is in the targets you shoot and I know at my age I no long can shoot to the capabilities of the rifle no matter the test group . By the way I trust these folks the built me a great 6 mm creedmore and re bedded my 30 year old 22-250 to impressive groups
Hi, I was wandering what spring you're using with the Eley Match ammo? Thanks Keith
MD = Momentum Dependent. Meaning ignition is the result of a heavy firing pin developing momentum (PAS), rather than a light firing pin being driven with speed SAP).
PAS = Pin around spring, SAP = Spring around pin.
Speed is needed for faster lock time. Speed has an advantage with handheld rifles. Much less important with rifles fired from a rest. A point of argument SAP vs PAS, is a spring isn't as reliable driving a light pin to an exact speed as it is in moving a heavier pin to an exact momentum. There are other points as well.
Good morning Keith.
I use the Strongest Spring that came in the Vudoo kit. And still have an occasional FTF. But normally just re-cock, check my aim and off it goes...
4Certain
Interesting, great response, thank you. Since I have gotten into this 22-bench rest and learning about the many aspects of the gun, rests, ammo, wind and wind flags, 22 shooting has really been the challenge I have been looking for.
I have had my best groups and no FTF with CT-X any lots starting with 27-31, 31 doing the best. I have not had any great sucess with Eley. I am concerned because I am slowly running out of the CT-X. I also have had problems getting the Eley to eject. The Eley case looked to me like it was hit too hard. Keith
Is 16.4mm O/O good.
That was Eley Tenex 40 shot group. In my new Vudoo.
<10-11 is excellent, ~12mm is very good, 13mm and over is average.
The 100 ring on a ARA unlimited target is .5" wide which is 12.7 mm. You need to decide what your definition of good is.
@tonykharper
Tony, this is interesting. I have asked before and never really got an answer.
"A point of argument SAP vs PAS, is a spring isn't as reliable driving a light pin to an exact speed as it is in moving a heavier pin to an exact momentum."... This in theory makes sense.
You also mentioned there are other points as well. Can you please elaborate?
Thank you,
Gjmen22
Gjmen,
This is a very controversial subject. Nearly every commercial action maker uses SAP, they do that for a reason.
You can easily see the reason(s) by studying the designs.
Of course, you can always test the designs for yourself and develop your own opinion. I would encourage anyone to do that.
At this time, we only have Di Orio building the PAS style Turbo action and I surely hope he continues to do so.
I'll give you just one thing to consider.
If one believes rimfire accuracy is dependent upon consistent ignition, consider this: If a firing pin spring can drive the firing pin for 5-10 years without failing to fire when did that spring reach the point where it fired every round without over driving the pin and creating more vibration than necessary.
Note: A spring is dying from the time it is placed under stress and will eventually fail.
TKH (4628)
For all the talk on numbers here is the test target on my rifle. I don’t care if it is .137 or 10.xxx what I do know is it will outshoot my elderly capabilities and that is important to me. At my age an enjoyable distraction is what I want as I’ve done all the competitive shooting I need to
Attachments
vous pouvez spécifier ce que sont ces vis?
Je vous remercie
For whatever reason, there's seems to be a lot of talk lately about the availability of Turbo (PAS Style) receivers or should I say the non-availability of them. I can assure anyone who is interested, we are not going anywhere and have no plans to discontinue the production of our Turbo line of receivers and other shooting products. The internet is a funny place where rumor, inuendo or just plain false information pops up, unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast. While true there have been production delays over the past year due to several factors, we manufacture the receivers on a daily basis. Honestly, I welcome the opportunity to significantly increase our yearly production, but the reality of the sales and open order data tell a different tale. We are making changes to distribution of our products in 2022 that I believe will quell some of the misleading perception. I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a Merry Christmas & Happy New Year and also thank all of our customers for their patronage in 2021.
Best Regards, Anthony DiOrio
Merry Christmas to you also, Anthony, i have your Turbo V3/shilen .850 and soon the same turbo V3/Muller .900 i ordered to LB Precision.
This is great rifle i use for the French championship.
Patrick (France)
Tony, I have two folks I know who ordered rifles from you. One, was delayed several times and finally received the rifle earlier this year. The other is still waiting for you to ship his rifle after several times when you said it would ship in a week. When word of mouth gets out about the delays, and there is no real explanation for why they are delayed, when you said it would ship, that can cause people to wonder if your business is in trouble. So I think you could resolve some of those rumors if you just followed through and deliver your products when you say they will be delivered. I think that would go a long way to resolving any concerns folks might have.
Please take this as a suggestion and constructive feedback, as that the way it is intended. I am very happy to hear the business is stable, and you continue to produce your actions. Some of the best equipment in the industry!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
I see that I am not the only one to have repeated delivery delays as well as various stories to justify them, once again the quality of the work is not questioned, but simply the lack of consideration of a professional for another professional who must inform his clients with sincerity and seriousness, we are still waiting for the delivery of V3 shares which are just waiting to be shipped, but are they really finished !!!
a merry christmas to all and a very happy new year to all
a merry christmas to all and a very happy new year to all
I'm having the same issue with FARLEY!
Hello Anthony,
Thank you and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, I also have a V3 shillen as B Calfee would say: it is a killer !!!!
If you tell me that you can make me one with a Muller I will order it without any fear.
Friendly
Jacques
There is a little bit of BS and lots of misinformation in the whole PAS/SAP discussion in the BR world. The only place where it happens to any amount is on CYA. Calfee is a big proponent of PAS ignition systems and an even bigger opponent of anything or anyone else. All of this PAS superiority must be taken with a big grain of salt due to the source. Calfee has made up lots of terms and claims about different aspects of both designs in addition that are misleading at best. In addition, not all SAP actions are the same. Calfee basically states they are all just like the 40X, which is far from the truth. Lets look at the facts first.
MD: This whole "momentum dependent" term is suspect at best. Energy is the basic measuring stick, not momentum. Whether its fast and light, slow and heavy or maybe both, equal energy is equal hit. In order to ignite priming compound, a certain amount of speed is needed to create the internal friction in the material or it "doesn't go bang". Hitting the primer with a truck and squeezing it over 5 seconds will just smash everything and not go off. Lots of position guns have lighter/faster systems and have worked for years. Friction hurts all of the designs, PAS included. Just see how a little bit of lube in the system slows it down and it no longer works. BTW, the PAS design requires lube in all the wrong places and with all the surface inside the pin area is ripe for a lube related ignition inconsistency. Most 40X based designs have nearly equal mass and similar spring forces at cock as the PAS Turbo design. IF MD is good in the Turbo, its basically the same in the 40X, 2500X and Vudoo too. All you really want is a system that consistently hits the primer hard enough and fast enough to light it off without being excessive.
SPRINGS: The statement that springs die a little bit every time and only have the right force for a short time is not inherently accurate. A PROPERLY designed spring will never change its characteristics. After millions of actuations within its limits, a PROPERLY designed spring will still be the same. Go one step down and get a spring that is designed such that it exceeds tensile stress in outer layers, but not by much. That spring will not last for millions of cycles without fracture, but once it takes its initial set, it will not get shorter or loose force. One more step down and now you have a spring that reaches tensile stress limits in all of its layers. THAT spring does continue to degrade. The major contributor to overstress is the OD being smaller than you really want. Guess which design has the smallest OD? I'll jump to the end, PAS. That is one of the biggest drawbacks of this design. There just isn't enough room for the spring to get a properly designed unit in there, so you have to contend with springs that fail. Most SAP design are on the hairy edge. When I did all my centerfire actions, I sent Remington springs to Sterling for analysis and recommendations for my actions. IN the end, I have a design in my actions that are as close to PROPERLY designed as possible in the space inside a bolt. MY springs will not take a set after the initial sizing and keep consistent tension from then on. I am not sure about Vudoo, maybe Mike can add something here. One thing for sure, any 40X type of SAP design has a better spring design then any PAS. That is one of the main reasons I didn't do PAS in the first place.
SLOP and FRICTION. This is very dependent on the designs. I won't speak to all of them here. IN my 2500X design, the shroud is rigidly attached to the bolt and the shroud is bored such that there is never any interference or inconsistency. The 40X is not that way. There are misalignments and slop in the 40X shroud. I minimized surface area inside also, I have about 10% of the surface area that the Turbo does that can cause friction inside the firing pin design. In the 2500X, the spring is installed such that there are no sharp edges that can rub on moving parts as the slide. In the rear spring mount on the Turbo, the edge of the spring will rub on the inside of the firing pin as it drops.
There is so much to go into here that I can't do it all at once. Go look at the equipment lists and make your determination, just look at all of them. Calfee loves to point to the ARA indoor results. Turbo equipped guns did pretty good. HOWEVER, he conveniently jumps over one day earlier on the PSL where 2500X SAP actions dominated.
ANY good action set up properly does a few things right. It has to interface to the stock correctly, hold the barrel firmly and light off the round. All of these customs can do that. Don't let a few mouthpieces try to convince you otherwise.
Jerry,
That was a good explanation of the difference between the PAS and the SAP ignition design. Mr. Calfee keeps bragging about the Turbo actions winning a lot of the big matches, but I may be wrong, but I believe that all this killer Turbos were built in the original Bill Myers Turbo actions not on the new Turbo V3.
I have built a few V3, and also a few 2500X, and they are winning some local matches, but these guys don't travel to the big ones.
In my personal opinion, I think that either one of these actions with a killer barrel, and ammo. and a good driver are perfectly capable of winning National matches.
These is really a Vudoo thread, so I apologize for infringing on it.
Evelio.
That was a good explanation of the difference between the PAS and the SAP ignition design. Mr. Calfee keeps bragging about the Turbo actions winning a lot of the big matches, but I may be wrong, but I believe that all this killer Turbos were built in the original Bill Myers Turbo actions not on the new Turbo V3.
I have built a few V3, and also a few 2500X, and they are winning some local matches, but these guys don't travel to the big ones.
In my personal opinion, I think that either one of these actions with a killer barrel, and ammo. and a good driver are perfectly capable of winning National matches.
These is really a Vudoo thread, so I apologize for infringing on it.
Evelio.
You would be wrong about the turbos. The ones kicking out big aggs and targets are newer turbos, they don't have the cresent pin but they are newer diorio actions. Helps to know the truth
I have ordered the latest turbo's V3 with a muller barrel 4MI. You said that the crescent pin is no longer part of the bolt?
What is different from the previous V3 Turbos?
The original Turbos were made by Flash Ebert. Bill Meyers never made Turbo actions, although he did build a few rifles using them.
The Turbos winning big matches are a mix of old and new. Mike Sherrill (Black Death) shoots a 13 year old Flash Turbo,
as does Larry Parsons (Paladin). Chuck Morrell (Uncle Tom) Di Orio Turbo.
There are also guys winning with the newer Di Orio Turbos.
TKH (4628)
The Turbos winning big matches are a mix of old and new. Mike Sherrill (Black Death) shoots a 13 year old Flash Turbo,
as does Larry Parsons (Paladin). Chuck Morrell (Uncle Tom) Di Orio Turbo.
There are also guys winning with the newer Di Orio Turbos.
TKH (4628)
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Funny how these things get off track.
Sorry Tony, I quoted the wrong post.
GTI,
Sorry to have caused a distraction. I should have known better than to post anything about PAS vs SAP. It brings out lengthy responses from those with vested interest.
Getting back on subject. I have heard the Vudoo V-22S format has been changed and no longer includes the crescent shaped firing pin.
Can you bring the thread up to date on what changes have been made to those being shipped today?
TKH (4628)
I don't know what's being shipped today but I'll see if I can post a pic of mine if that helps any...
Turboshooter
I really meant to say exactly that. Most of the killer Turbos are the earlier design two lugs, and chisel type firing pins, versus the newer V3.
Evelio.
My single shot showed up about 2 weeks ago. Standard shaped firing pin at 6 o'clock.
Three of my customers ordered new firing pins for the V22S, and all 3 received the 6-o clock chisel point pins, no crescent pins !!!!!! don't know if that is the new format.
Mr. Mike must have done a real Vudoo trick, he just about disappeared ????
Evelio.
I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong ,but I believe Vudoo has had FTF issues with the crescent pin since the get go. I suspect this pin shape is difficult to be made reliable in SAP ignition though it can be reliable in PAS ignition as I have a V3 TUrbo with crescent pin and have never had FTF issues. You notice I didn't use the MD prefix with PAS as both systems require momentum to deliver a pin strike. Both can be made to deliver consistent pin strikes but the lighter SAP pin must travel at a higher rate of speed than the heaver PAS pin to deliver the same energy. I suggest vibration is the biggest difference in the two. Light fast vs slow heavy. Sorry for getting off on this PAS vs SAP thing. Someone did say it was controversial.
How do we measure pin strike depth? What tool do we use?
Just use a calliper, the depth gauge. FYI, tenex is 3/10 mm depth penetration according to Eley. On a turbo, you can setup the pin strike depth in moving backward and forward the trigger's hanger wich has oblong holes on it. On a 2500x, there are 2 positions, the small hole in front position is the lowest percussion strongness, For the vuddo, i don't know, still awaiting for it to be ship to France by the FFL.
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