- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
Candoo/Mike, thanks for sharing some of your development data. Promising, and we understand still a work in progress. Keep up the good work! We certainly appreciate sharing the data. Good luck with the project.
Candoo, a question on your software. Is it off the shelf or custom? Specifically, the simulation portion at the bottom where based on the top section data, you can simulate an ARA, PSL, etc. match score. That's pretty cool and I have not seen that software before.
Thanks to all for your efforts so far, and your commitment to a new benchrest rifle!
The .184 came from Ivan's match rifle, the "control" in the testing, not the new Vudoo SS rifle. FYI only.View attachment 7377243
a 0.184" avg grp size of five 5-shot groups, its gonna be good enuf to not be ANY limitation for me as a shooter. It'll still be the nut behind the bolt holding me back.
Ivan, a question on your testing design. I see you are shooting 25 shot groups in both rifles as a comparison. Do you have a design expectation for the new Vudoo? Is it to shoot 25 group shots as well as your competition rifle? Or better? Just curious what the team is shooting for (pardon the pun)....
Gotcha.
The 0.260 avg will still outshoot me.
Of course, it makes sense that the tester shooting his own test rifle which he's dialed in over years is gonna beat a rifle dropped off a coupla days ago.
Also note that he shot 25 rounds in each rifle, so that's a big group. A 5 round group should do much better with the right ammo, but also the right support system. I'm sure the rifles in his testing are clamped down to eliminate the "people" aspect of testing, similar to testing at the Lapua sites.Gotcha.
The 0.260 avg will still outshoot me.
Of course, it makes sense that the tester shooting his own test rifle which he's dialed in over years is gonna beat a rifle dropped off a coupla days ago.
And I agree, .260 average over 25 shots, is likely much better than I can shoot too!
Absolutely. Pic shows the individual 5 - shot groups ... and its exacly as you say.... one 5-shot at 0.1997 another at 0.2008 (then some larger)
Tim,
This rifle has had less than a thousand rounds shot through it. Each barrel, each rifle is different. some take 1000's of rounds some take ten's of thousands of rounds. I would put this prototype Vudoo rifle at about 75 to 78% as it stands today. This rifle is showing good signs of really wanting to shoot. Rifles tested in the tunnel, my guess some where between 65 and 80. The last I checked there was over 1300 test data sheets on targets. I would also say you could multiply that times at least 2.5 total on targets we did not scan.
Hope this helps!!
Ivanhoe
The software is by Jeff Block. It's called On Target Software, you can get it online, I recommend it to all that what to learn. We have developed our own process of how we compile this data to understand what it takes to be competitive.(proprietary)
Hope this helps!!
Ivanhoe
Ivan gave me a call last but I'm out of town and won't be back until Sunday. He asked me if I'd be able to help with the data he posted because he knew there would be questions and he was just exhausted from burning the candle from both ends with several different projects and preparing for the match he's hosting.
I think I'll be able to answer most of comments/questions asked thus far and provide some clarity, but working with my phone is a PITA and it may be Monday before I make much progress.
I'll try to post later today and get started, but I doubt it's possible to make a lot of headway.
Landy
I think I'll be able to answer most of comments/questions asked thus far and provide some clarity, but working with my phone is a PITA and it may be Monday before I make much progress.
I'll try to post later today and get started, but I doubt it's possible to make a lot of headway.
Landy
This is just me, first you have to find out what it takes to win, come up with a standard of measure. We know what that is now. Some things I will talk about some I won't. Our testing at the moment is based off of 5-5 shot groups shot to shot, not shoot 5 then move and shoot 5 more. Never would I base anything from shooting one 25 shot group, more than ten 25 shot groups would be a good place to start. I hope to have software someday where I can shoot at least 8 five shot groups as that relates to how we shoot a target in competition. I may not be able too, but if I can, I hope my New VUDOO smokes my old rifle or I'm not moving forward. But make no mistake that's going to be easier said than done.
Hope this helps!!
Ivanhoe
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Ivan,
thanks for the perspective, It looks as though it is a nice solid beginning, You and Mike, I assume, are pleased.
Should be interesting to see how it goes with a few matches in some real world conditions but following this has been fun.
Hopefully the production guns get close as well......thanks.
Ivan is shooting one of the two prototypes, the final version of the action is in production.
MB
That software is written by the same guy that writes the software used to score ARA and PSL targets. Almost all of the BR shooters shoot those disciplines. The software is written for them in a lot of ways. The one thing that we pay a lot of attention to is the ARA score data on the bottom. The ARA Best is the one of most interest as the scope zero is removed. That data is derived from shooting a 25 bull target that is similar to the ARA target and is printable from that software. Groups in 22 are a little less important to us than that ARA score. Precision to most of us, including me, is not just group size but percentage of shots near the center versus not. To score a 100 on an ARA target you need to touch a dot about 3/32 (0.093) of an inch or a little smaller.
There is a world of difference between a gun that shoots 2100, 2200, 2300 and 2400. Almost all guns in a tunnel with decent ammo will shoot about a 2100 in my experience. Very few will shoot 2400 or better. Its an exponential curve to get a gun that moves up that line. I would bet today there are less than 20 guns in the country that will shoot 2450 very consistently under perfect conditions with good ammo. Not many more than that will do 2400. Getting that gun and overall system is not an easy or inexpensive task. It takes dedication and lots of pieces and parts to get there normally. You need everything right from the rest to the ammo to the shooter to even come close.
My experience is that it is relatively easy to get the rest, stock, trigger, action and tuner up to the task of being a top gun if you are using proven manufacturers and gunsmiths. The real key is barrels. 10 barrels made in a row by the same guy are not the same. I personally have went through about 50 barrels to get the 4 or 5 that I keep on my guns and a few for spares. A good barrel to me is one that performs almost all days, not just a few good ones and is not so ammo finicky. I did pretty well last year with a barrel I put on. It shot great, but is a good, not great, barrel in my mind. Why? Because it requires a few special lots of ammo to make it really scream.
I'm excited that this new action/gun and partnership is going on. It will bring new people into the rimfire accuracy game and maybe a few of them will even venture into ARA benchrest. Its a fun and at times frustrating journey, but like an old car commercial said "its the ride, not the destination" that matters.
There is a world of difference between a gun that shoots 2100, 2200, 2300 and 2400. Almost all guns in a tunnel with decent ammo will shoot about a 2100 in my experience. Very few will shoot 2400 or better. Its an exponential curve to get a gun that moves up that line. I would bet today there are less than 20 guns in the country that will shoot 2450 very consistently under perfect conditions with good ammo. Not many more than that will do 2400. Getting that gun and overall system is not an easy or inexpensive task. It takes dedication and lots of pieces and parts to get there normally. You need everything right from the rest to the ammo to the shooter to even come close.
My experience is that it is relatively easy to get the rest, stock, trigger, action and tuner up to the task of being a top gun if you are using proven manufacturers and gunsmiths. The real key is barrels. 10 barrels made in a row by the same guy are not the same. I personally have went through about 50 barrels to get the 4 or 5 that I keep on my guns and a few for spares. A good barrel to me is one that performs almost all days, not just a few good ones and is not so ammo finicky. I did pretty well last year with a barrel I put on. It shot great, but is a good, not great, barrel in my mind. Why? Because it requires a few special lots of ammo to make it really scream.
I'm excited that this new action/gun and partnership is going on. It will bring new people into the rimfire accuracy game and maybe a few of them will even venture into ARA benchrest. Its a fun and at times frustrating journey, but like an old car commercial said "its the ride, not the destination" that matters.
I didn't leave you out but the target used for the software is ARA based mostly. Most of you guys either shoot ARA too or at least know about how good a gun is by their scores.
We want a few to "venture " our way as well, that was my intent.
Let's be inclusive now.....IR 50 lives mater.
I’m a new RFBR shooter using one of Jerry’s rifles. I’m currently shooting IR 50/50 matches. Three matches in and shooting mid pack. Practicing a lot, but dealing with RF frustrations. As I said, shooting a lot and reading a lot. I don’t give up easily. Only mentioning this because of recent comments.
Atta boy, give'em hell, we're ALL dealing with RF frustrations.
Because Ivan somehow found the time to make a few posts and others like Jerry and Tim were able to make a few excellent contributions, there's not a lot I can add. What I will do for now is give you a few of my thoughts and expand upon one of the previous discussions.
I may also post again and do the same on other comments I've seen, but we'll see how this goes first, cuz if it ends up being a train wreck I'll go away and hide. LOL
Starting at post #394 and ending at post #402, the discussion revolves around what Tim describes as "Internet Lore". I often use the term "Old Wive's Tales" to describe those that suggest a good rifle is capable of shooting quite a few groups in the 0's and averages are in the low to mid 0.100's.
That's not a good rifle, that's a "GREAT" rifle and they're incredibly rare.
At the risk of pissing off a few of you, most have been brainwashed into believing there's a lot of rifles that will perform in that range of grp sizes. Ivan may have a system (Package) performing at that level, as does Jerry and his cohort in crime Bad Bob, as well as maybe some dozen others, but there ain't many achieving this level and it entails shooting every test lot you can get your hands on along with evaluating barrels and a constant tweaking of the system.
To be brutally honest there's not a forum in existence where a beginning or even an experienced BR shooter is able to make an assessment of how their rifle performs against others by looking at the grp sizes posted. Perhaps my biggest pet peeve since the advent of forums has been the horrid measurement of grps and then the suggestion that a couple of wallet groups are capable of predicting the long term performance of said rifle. I'm starting to repeat myself so I'll end my rant and move on.
Because we'll never be able to look at accurate measurements, I think the best option is to use "OnTarget TDS" and compile your own database for evaluating your performance and predicting where you stand compared to fellow competitors. Not to mention, you'll also have a more reliable method to judge if one of the variables you change while testing is truly beneficial or just due to the normal variation in results.
By far, the biggest obstacle we all face (myself included) is the sheer amount of data required to make good decisions and/or conclusions. I've said this a million times over the years, but it doesn't matter by which methods you choose to quantify precision or conduct testing, because at some point it becomes a matter of practicality based on the time and cost you're willing to spend and everyone has their limits.
After years of hard work I'm at an age where I have some disposable income and assets, but my roadblock is never having enough time to do half the things I'd like to accomplish. The other roadblock I have is that the more data I gather, the more questions I have.
I hoped at one time, long ago, there would be more answers than questions and not the opposite, but that has turned out to be a pipe dream and only the so called forum experts have been able to achieve it. Whoops, I'm ranting again! LOL
Here's a link to give you an idea of how the software works and some of its features:
https://ontargetshooting.com/ontarget-tds/
If I judge there's enough interest, I can help by posting the benchmarks I use to quantify precision based on over 90,000 rds of data I've gathered in my tunnel. That data in conjunction with the statistical correlation to precision charts I've developed for the more popular statistical metrics should allow you to guage where you're at currently, and where you need to be if you desire to reach approximately the 90th percentile or above.
I should note there's more than one way to accomplish whatever goals you have, but this is the path I've chosen and not once have I regretted it. YMMV of course.
Landy
I may also post again and do the same on other comments I've seen, but we'll see how this goes first, cuz if it ends up being a train wreck I'll go away and hide. LOL
Starting at post #394 and ending at post #402, the discussion revolves around what Tim describes as "Internet Lore". I often use the term "Old Wive's Tales" to describe those that suggest a good rifle is capable of shooting quite a few groups in the 0's and averages are in the low to mid 0.100's.
That's not a good rifle, that's a "GREAT" rifle and they're incredibly rare.
At the risk of pissing off a few of you, most have been brainwashed into believing there's a lot of rifles that will perform in that range of grp sizes. Ivan may have a system (Package) performing at that level, as does Jerry and his cohort in crime Bad Bob, as well as maybe some dozen others, but there ain't many achieving this level and it entails shooting every test lot you can get your hands on along with evaluating barrels and a constant tweaking of the system.
To be brutally honest there's not a forum in existence where a beginning or even an experienced BR shooter is able to make an assessment of how their rifle performs against others by looking at the grp sizes posted. Perhaps my biggest pet peeve since the advent of forums has been the horrid measurement of grps and then the suggestion that a couple of wallet groups are capable of predicting the long term performance of said rifle. I'm starting to repeat myself so I'll end my rant and move on.
Because we'll never be able to look at accurate measurements, I think the best option is to use "OnTarget TDS" and compile your own database for evaluating your performance and predicting where you stand compared to fellow competitors. Not to mention, you'll also have a more reliable method to judge if one of the variables you change while testing is truly beneficial or just due to the normal variation in results.
By far, the biggest obstacle we all face (myself included) is the sheer amount of data required to make good decisions and/or conclusions. I've said this a million times over the years, but it doesn't matter by which methods you choose to quantify precision or conduct testing, because at some point it becomes a matter of practicality based on the time and cost you're willing to spend and everyone has their limits.
After years of hard work I'm at an age where I have some disposable income and assets, but my roadblock is never having enough time to do half the things I'd like to accomplish. The other roadblock I have is that the more data I gather, the more questions I have.
I hoped at one time, long ago, there would be more answers than questions and not the opposite, but that has turned out to be a pipe dream and only the so called forum experts have been able to achieve it. Whoops, I'm ranting again! LOL
Here's a link to give you an idea of how the software works and some of its features:
https://ontargetshooting.com/ontarget-tds/
If I judge there's enough interest, I can help by posting the benchmarks I use to quantify precision based on over 90,000 rds of data I've gathered in my tunnel. That data in conjunction with the statistical correlation to precision charts I've developed for the more popular statistical metrics should allow you to guage where you're at currently, and where you need to be if you desire to reach approximately the 90th percentile or above.
I should note there's more than one way to accomplish whatever goals you have, but this is the path I've chosen and not once have I regretted it. YMMV of course.
Landy
Landy, this was an awesome post and I appreciate you taking the time to share in this way (as well as Jerry and Tim's input). One of the many things I've enjoyed about the SH community is it's a largely open minded group with genuine interests in learning and understanding. Please continue to share in this thread as I believe there's a lot to be gained from it by anyone with a general passion for advancing what we're doing.
Thanks,
MB
@HuskerP7M8 I'd be very interested in your benchmark info. I only have 9000 rds in TDS and none of it in a tunnel but since i shoot in a vacuum with NO other .22 shooters that i know of anywhere near me i'd love to have some reliable statistical benchmarks to compare against !
Landy, another fine and factual post....keep'em coming.
I have gotten myself into more grief simply because as a long term CF group shooter,and unable to avoid controversy , especially involving posting groups, some of which are preposterous but no doubt continually adding to false perceptions about what guns are really capable of.
My favorite usually involves asking how you get a group smaller than bullet diameter when you have a couple holes with space between them, you would think the light would go on but I guess not.
I have gotten myself into more grief simply because as a long term CF group shooter,and unable to avoid controversy , especially involving posting groups, some of which are preposterous but no doubt continually adding to false perceptions about what guns are really capable of.
My favorite usually involves asking how you get a group smaller than bullet diameter when you have a couple holes with space between them, you would think the light would go on but I guess not.
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Guys I have been laughing at some of the comments about accuracy of the new V22S, I have seen other crazy comments all over the net. All I know is, if this dude Ivan Wells is helping out Mike with the new V22S holy crap. I have never met the Man face to face, I have spoke to him couple times on the phone. Guys I don't know about you but I am excited about all of this! With Ivan's input we should see some really good stuff coming out of Vudoo! Then the rest will be up to you getting the best ammo and tuner combo. Will my V22S make me shoot like Ivan no but I know going in that a guy at Ivan's level had a lot of input! For the guys like me that had never done BR before, I had no clue who Ivan was until I started pulling his stats off the ARA website! Makes me have a very warm feeling about everything going on.
I wanted to know his stats these past 3 years, I wanted to see if he was a consistent shooter/builder or just a one time kind of guy! I guess his numbers speak for him!
2017 9 wins 21 matches 42.8% of the matches won! ONLY 2 of the 21 matches were his home range! #3 Nationally and shot 108 cards! Out of the Top 3 he was the ONLY one that shot outside his home range!
2500-1 card
2450-4 cards
2400-5 cards
2350-11 cards
2018 15 wins 30 matches 50% of the matches won!... ONLY 3 of the 30 matches were his home range! #1 Nationally in Outdoor Agg 164 cards
2500-3 cards
2450-9 cards
2400-16 cards
2350-30 cards
2019 19 wins 38 matches 50% of the matches won!...Only 5 of the 38 matches were at his home range! #1 Nationally in Outdoor Agg 145 targets
2500-4 cards
2450-21 cards
2400-39 cards
2350-44 cards
I wanted to know his stats these past 3 years, I wanted to see if he was a consistent shooter/builder or just a one time kind of guy! I guess his numbers speak for him!
2017 9 wins 21 matches 42.8% of the matches won! ONLY 2 of the 21 matches were his home range! #3 Nationally and shot 108 cards! Out of the Top 3 he was the ONLY one that shot outside his home range!
2500-1 card
2450-4 cards
2400-5 cards
2350-11 cards
2018 15 wins 30 matches 50% of the matches won!... ONLY 3 of the 30 matches were his home range! #1 Nationally in Outdoor Agg 164 cards
2500-3 cards
2450-9 cards
2400-16 cards
2350-30 cards
2019 19 wins 38 matches 50% of the matches won!...Only 5 of the 38 matches were at his home range! #1 Nationally in Outdoor Agg 145 targets
2500-4 cards
2450-21 cards
2400-39 cards
2350-44 cards
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Following up on Ravage88’s comment: “genuine interests in learning and understanding”, I’m curious about the relative importance of RFBR actions when compared to other components.
At the risk of infringing on proprietary aspects of action design I’d appreciate a generic discussion about what would comprise a superior action design and what is the relative influence of the action to other components (like barrel and chambering, trigger or stock design and bedding) of a RFBR rifle.
I see competitors winning consistently with rifles built by a variety of action manufacturers (past and present) and have come to believe that, in addition to the shooter’s skill, “unicorn” barrels and “killer” ammo must be the discriminating components.
Help me out here, veteran competitors and design engineers, and provide some insights into the importance of various design features of RFBR actions?
What has kept Suhl, Swindlehurst, 10X and the original Flash Turbos in the game and what are the design considerations that have put Holeshot Arms 2500X and DiOrio's Turbo (other than availability) on the podium?
Things like ignition and importance of firing pin spring design, firing pin orientation, two vs three lug design and placement (mid- or rear-lock), pin around spring (PAS) vs spring around pin (SAP), etc.
Thank you in advance for indulging a novice shooter …
At the risk of infringing on proprietary aspects of action design I’d appreciate a generic discussion about what would comprise a superior action design and what is the relative influence of the action to other components (like barrel and chambering, trigger or stock design and bedding) of a RFBR rifle.
I see competitors winning consistently with rifles built by a variety of action manufacturers (past and present) and have come to believe that, in addition to the shooter’s skill, “unicorn” barrels and “killer” ammo must be the discriminating components.
Help me out here, veteran competitors and design engineers, and provide some insights into the importance of various design features of RFBR actions?
What has kept Suhl, Swindlehurst, 10X and the original Flash Turbos in the game and what are the design considerations that have put Holeshot Arms 2500X and DiOrio's Turbo (other than availability) on the podium?
Things like ignition and importance of firing pin spring design, firing pin orientation, two vs three lug design and placement (mid- or rear-lock), pin around spring (PAS) vs spring around pin (SAP), etc.
Thank you in advance for indulging a novice shooter …
Really, its all important. If your action isn't square or has ignition problems, it will cause issues. Poor bedding will also. A rest that is not tuned up correctly can cause lots of misses. I am not sure there is an order of importance. I go about it with a different tact. I get all the pieces right, the easiest first and then go on. Bedding is easy. Put the barreled action in, test the motion of the barrel vs the stock as the screws are tighten/loosened and make sure it is almost nothing. Make sure the mounts are all tight and a known good scope is on. Use a proven trigger mfr, (yes, triggers can cause huge issues) After that it gets a little tougher if you don't have known good parts. Swapping known pieces for new ones to validate them is the easiest, especially for the rest. After that I put a known good barrel on a gun and try it and make sure it shoots as expected. If not and the stock is bedded good, start on the action etc etc.
I realize this is gonna be hard for anyone new. That is why getting a good known smith with all the pieces to validate is important. Luckily I have all the test parts here and can use them to troubleshoot. Also, smiths that have built LOTS of guns (rimfire guns, centerfire not much correlation) have more experience in what may affect what. How many is LOTS? IDK, but I have probably built a 100 or so and just lately really feel I have gotten a pretty good handle on it. Unfortunately, the amount of true benchrest rimfire smiths in the US are countable on your fingers, and half of them don't take orders for guns in general any more.
In the end, barrels, barrels, barrels, barrels and matched ammo are the real key. Part of that barrel piece is also the chamber put in, length it is cut, crown style and fitting a good tuner. You don't just run a reamer in one of these and are good to go. I am in the minority for sure, but when I get a blank it is pinned, slugged, most likely lapped (as I buy a lot of unlapped blanks) or re-lapped and only then chambered. My chambers are on a CNC with multiple steps in cutting them and my proprietary finishing method. And NO, I am not trying to get business by posting this. I don't even take orders for builds any more. I am in the action business, not much in the gun business. I just love trying to make these things shoot. Most all guns I sell are spec guns used to help Randy sell stocks or downsize my barrel pile. I wish everyone great luck and look forward to shooting with some of y'all in the future.
The answers to this will be very interesting to say the least. I truly look forward to seeing what people have to say and believe matters and is right and wrong. A little research on Rimfire Accuracy will give anyone all of my ideas btw.
Good points here Tim and I appreciate that you don't worry much about controversy. It's been quite obvious over the years that I'm not averse to controversy, as it's been a useful tool that's helped pave what has been a productive path for this community as a whole. There's a reason "yes" men don't make it very far and the SH community is aware of why I say some of the things I do. So, keep it comin' Dude.
MB
Thanks Jerry, all good stuff....and so you know, there's no perception that you're here to grab business, so please don't worry about that. You've been at this a while and have quite a lot to offer.
MB
Hey Norm, I think we can dig into this at a level that doesn't get into what could be considered proprietary, so here goes.
While there are key features in an action used for RFBR, the action is just one piece of a system. Each of the key features are responsible for a collective result, but there are numerous ways to deal with the key features that could lead up to what could be considered a superior action. So, there's not just one way to accomplish each of these features, contrary to what some will regurgitate.
There are many features that are preference driven, like the number of lugs. I chose three based on a lot of research that revealed the direction of many different groups of end-users, not just RFBR....this is also why I kept the recoil lug, something you don't see on RFBR actions. In addition, the three lugs in the V-22S also bode well for a few other aspects of what it takes, long-term, to be successful at the design and development game.
As far as the "system" (that I mentioned above) goes (once the action is everything it should be), the barrel and ammo are incredibly important. After slugging more than a few barrels today, I can tell you that the hunt can be really frustrating, especially when you build and ship as many rifles as Vudoo does. The one-piece rest, although not my area, is a big part of how the system is interfaced to the shooter; proper features and set up of the rest is as important as having a rifle that's up to the task.
I hope this helps and I really appreciate the higher level nature of this conversation. Thanks again to Ivan, Landy, Jerry and others for your perspectives.
MB
As I stated above, the V-22S was designed for more than just RFBR use and, as such, I've had numerous requests to run a Picatinny Rail. I didn't want to just plop our current rails on top, as it would've been just a rail plopped on top, so, this is what the V-22S specific rails look like....
Don't forget, the integral 11mm Dovetails are under this rail and you can run any currently available mounts with .860" hole spacing. Ivan likes to run the Tally mounts.
MB
Don't forget, the integral 11mm Dovetails are under this rail and you can run any currently available mounts with .860" hole spacing. Ivan likes to run the Tally mounts.
MB
So we are roughly 30 days out...I guess I need to figure out ammo! Do I send the V22S to a tunnel or get LOTS of eley and lapua to test on my own is the question now! What ammo do I get, Midas, centerX, X-act, Tenex and eley match?
I think the rifle will be chambered for Eley, given it's intended use. So you might want to start there first. Just a suggestion.
Does anyone know for sure if this new action is being chambered for Eley or Lapua? My reason for the question is I thought I read somewhere that Adam Braverman was involved. He is a big wheel for Lapua, but I could be wrong. Getting older sucks memory wise.
I'm curious, what would the difference be on the chamber for Lapua versus Eley? Are the Vudoo rifles done for one or the other? Personally, I don't really have a different chamber for both. I set headspace and case length for the Lapua, which is the driver, and it's fine for Eley.
Mr. Jerry I agree. As you know far more than I about this subject, is there a significant difference between a 2 degree lead type chamber, compared to a 1.5 degree lead chamber such as I understand Kevin Nevis uses when it comes to ammo preferences? Have you experimented with any of this and if so what were your findings?
@jstiller:
If it is not considered proprietary, would you elaborate on tuning a rest. Is there a principal one is trying to attain by maximizing or minimizing one of the independent variables or a matter of trial-and-error, determining how the accuracy/precision varies with changing an independent variable.
Many thanks, Rick
The repeater platforms are more specific to Lapua vs Eley given how I handle a loaded round from the magazine to the chamber. This is what ensures a higher level of consistency, as the bullet touches nothing along it's path into the chamber. The 22LR RAVAGE reamer is designed around Lapua Center X and is the chamber used in the repeater (which also performs beautifully with Eley, but we use a different follower in the magazine), but this isn't the chamber used for the Single Shot rifles.
MB
I have done a small amount of testing in the old days, but didn't find out anything of consequence. If I re-did it now, I may learn more as my equipment is much better and able to show differences. I probably wont though, as what I have developed seems to be working well.
Nothing Proprietary for sure here. First thing is make sure all the adjustments that lock down are locked down and that it is a good lock so there is no motion. Also if you have adjustment screws, make sure the play is dealt with. Sloppy windage/elevation screws are bad for sure. IF you get the basic rest all good then I look for the two interface points. The rear is almost always a Delrin V or something similar. The rear doesn't seem as critical as the front. On the front I have Delrin sliders and "fuzz button" type, basically the fuzzy velcro half on each side and bottom. The delrin works well on fiberglass stocks and other HARD materials. Sometimes it will dent wood stocks. I personally like the "fuzz button" type. If you go to killoughs site he has pics so you know what I am talking about. I like there to be quite a lot of friction in the top sides. I believe I went over that in a post above.
I don't use the roller tops. They definitely work for some guys. They all seem to need a bungee or a real heavy stock to not get vertical. Cliff Arnold builds the most popular roller top. The rear is still usually Delrin. One thing I am big on is not over-constraining the system. Sides and bottom on the front and a back that allows the stock to find center on the two bottom/side intersection edges. Kinda like a 4 legged table. IF its very stiff, it will never sit flat. A stock that wont fit flat is a non-starter.
I build the Joystick Rest for Killough. It has had everything worked out of it that I can think off. The joystick moves left and right and has a screw for elevation. The el screw pushes on a Delrin post that interfaces with a machined spot on the rest. That way the screw is easy to move and any play doesn't translate into poi issues. That works well for ARA type of targets for shooting sighters. The joystick tension is adjustable. That is all I use. They aren't cheap, but nothing is. In general, if you get one it will work with most BR stocked guns and not have issues.
I don't really have an independent variable method to tune a rest. Now that I have reached the design I have now, all of that is pretty much behind me. I pretty much take for granted if I use any of my Joystick rests, they will be fine.
IF you buy a complete system from Ivan, I am sure he will have all of his stuff worked out also as it mates to his stock design. His stock and rest design that I am familiar with is a matched set as far as design goes if he hasn't changed anything.
Well.........here is another topic often shrouded in mystic belief, internet lore, and misinformation.......often.
Does anybody believe all those great shooting guys that ran exclusively ELEY all ran out and fit equally great barrels chambered for Lapua ???
A couple seasons back, for my own curiosity I shot exclusively Lapua , won some matches, state/regional champs with what, I guess I'd term good, not great, Lapua.
Worked great in multiple guns....did not even re-tune(although I remain open about the potential need to do so).
Now the point to this whole msg, IMHO I think it is dependent on chamber depth vs barrel configuration.
I suspect barrel depth is very important, especially with aggressively MI barrels which is also why I suspect a certain self important smith has pushed for ELEY , in particular, to list OAL on the box. ELEY OAL can vary a full .010" between short/long lots.
Now I have 5 more or less active barrels done by Gordon Eck & Mark Penrod, they all are what I'd call mid-depth chambers, are not particularly ammo sensitive, and don't foul the throats quickly. They run multiple configurations/multiple makers.
Now Jerry, for instance has a proprietary process but has published They are bored and appear to have relief machined into the throat which must assist the fouling characteristics of his chambers.
Other guys like Gordon will have that barrel on and off multiple times based on how fast it builds fouling and then requests a certain cleaning process before the chamber is completely seasoned.
How many of you guys are planning a thoughtful beak in procedure on those nice new chambers in those nice soft SS barrels ? Thought so.
Long story, even longer, with a lot of barrels with a lot of chambers you can shoot either and if you're dropping a big dime on great equipment to shoot BR @ 50yds, teo falvors of Lapua, two for ELEY, the rest ......you're kidding yourself mostly.
Finally, you do know you can shoot anything over ELEY but don't try and shoot ELEY over anything else ?..........don't you?
Learn to clean properly, right down to clean metal.
Does anybody believe all those great shooting guys that ran exclusively ELEY all ran out and fit equally great barrels chambered for Lapua ???
A couple seasons back, for my own curiosity I shot exclusively Lapua , won some matches, state/regional champs with what, I guess I'd term good, not great, Lapua.
Worked great in multiple guns....did not even re-tune(although I remain open about the potential need to do so).
Now the point to this whole msg, IMHO I think it is dependent on chamber depth vs barrel configuration.
I suspect barrel depth is very important, especially with aggressively MI barrels which is also why I suspect a certain self important smith has pushed for ELEY , in particular, to list OAL on the box. ELEY OAL can vary a full .010" between short/long lots.
Now I have 5 more or less active barrels done by Gordon Eck & Mark Penrod, they all are what I'd call mid-depth chambers, are not particularly ammo sensitive, and don't foul the throats quickly. They run multiple configurations/multiple makers.
Now Jerry, for instance has a proprietary process but has published They are bored and appear to have relief machined into the throat which must assist the fouling characteristics of his chambers.
Other guys like Gordon will have that barrel on and off multiple times based on how fast it builds fouling and then requests a certain cleaning process before the chamber is completely seasoned.
How many of you guys are planning a thoughtful beak in procedure on those nice new chambers in those nice soft SS barrels ? Thought so.
Long story, even longer, with a lot of barrels with a lot of chambers you can shoot either and if you're dropping a big dime on great equipment to shoot BR @ 50yds, teo falvors of Lapua, two for ELEY, the rest ......you're kidding yourself mostly.
Finally, you do know you can shoot anything over ELEY but don't try and shoot ELEY over anything else ?..........don't you?
Learn to clean properly, right down to clean metal.
Jerry, I recently bought the PQP basic rest for my new Holeshot BR rifle. The 2 round cylinders on the front rest have dented my Rotex stock, the spring pressure seamed excessive. I found a spring which is about half as stiff and now I believe that is causing me problems. Would the $200 top solve my problem? Sorry to hijack this thread. Thanks,
Jerry Stiller, I have a couple questions… 1st could you tell me about the bad ass Stiller 2500x that Bad Bob Cleveland shoots who works for you? Man, I see that guy winning all the time and would love to know about that combo. 2nd In post 416 How the hell do you get 50 rimfire barrels lol, I can barely get one to give to my gunsmith? How many did you have to go through on Bad Bob’s rifle to get it shooting like it is? 3rd I saw in post 335 that you named off a bunch of the one-piece rest and I thank you for that because I had no idea there were so many. I really like that dude Ivan’s rest but have not found any info on it yet. I guess I can contact Mike about it. I did see where you must have his stock design or something like to run his rest. But I noticed in post 321 that guy Landy’s rifle in Ivan rest seems to work so am I missing something? Man my last question is ammo, do you guys have your own test tunnels or do you rent time at some of these test tunnels? I have pretty much figured out that in BR Rimfire AMMO is EVERYTHING even when you have a bad ass combo. I have even ordered the software from OnTarget shooting to help me out. This is a crazy new world of shooting and I hope I can learn a lot since I am damn rookie.
Unfortunately, that rest top is not of the replaceable type. The lighter springs will work I would guess.
Lot of questions.
1, Bad Bob has been shooting an old Suhl that Killough won a lot with and then sold with a Ratchett on it. He shoots mostly Eley Match and it is definitely bad to the bone. Almost all of his winning has been with that. So that just goes to show you don't HAVE TO HAVE modern stuff (I think it really helps and is easier though).
2, for me, I just put my order in, kiss as much ass as possible, call in favors and write the check. It helps that I do the lapping on the Mullers. That gets them lots quicker. I don't know how many were on Bobs gun, it came with it when he got it.
3, Ivans rest: I don't have guns that will work in nor do I use it. Not sure where you got that impression. All the guns I build will work in a conventional rest and I only use my PQP joystick rest that is sold by Killough. Landy has at least a few guns, the ones I built him will not work in an Ivan rest. As far as I know, only Ivan's guns will work in Ivan's rests. Ivan seems to be on a quest to build guns and be a supplier. I am sure he will put up contact information if he wants to sell stuff.
4, I test a lot indoors, but ammo isn't proven until it shoots in both. You definitely need good ammo to shoot good, but great barrels make it a lot easier to find
Damn I have also been wanting to see one of Ivan's rest, love that in the pic. Ivan can you please post some pics of your rest. Thanks...
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