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Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Hummer

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 20, 2009
702
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SC Cradle of the Confederacy
If you want to see how well your rifle really does you need to shoot dual range targets at same time.

It is kind of tricky but here is how. Set up target at 300 yards on a target board that has a large open hole. Say the size of the black on a 200 yard repair center. Place the 200 yard repair center on the hole at 300 so when bullet goes through it it only contacts the light weight paper of the repair center and does not go through cardboard,other old targets etc where it will disturb projectile flight.

Next directly behind that target place a backer target at 600 yards. I use rolls of newsprint or movers packing paper (same thing). You can get end of news print rolls from your local newspaper. There are several hundred feet left on these rolls.
When the movers unloaded us here I got them to leave me about a five in stack of wrapping paper I have stored away that will last for years.

Aim at the 300 yard target in a no or very little mirage/wind condition and fire, bullet passes through first target and imprints on second target.
The ideal condition is cold overcast winter day with no wind for this test.

This gives you several advantages. One you have the exact same aim point for both targets and you only have half the mirage to distort aim point so any distortion at 300 is not magnified by trying to aim at 600. As stated above a cold overcast day is ideal or in the evening in summer right before sundown if you have a range with no wind.

Also be aware no wind condtion can get you heat waves coming off the barrel through the field of view of the scope. This is where receiver mounted scopes are at a disadvantage in a no wind condition and heat coming off the barrel straight up will distort the aiming where the old long Unertl's and Lymans objective lens were closer to the muzzle and it was quite easy to roll a piece of target into a roll and attach a tube to scope with rubber band and no mirage at all was allowed to interfere with sighting.

This is why I have a ceiling fan right over my bench. I turn it on low and heat from barrel is deflected from in front of scope.

If your results duplicate mine you will be amazed at the groups and the results you get.

Normally one would expect the 600 yard group to be exactly double the 300 yard group but not so. My testing has indicated the 600 yard group will more than double in size. Or say I have a 4" group at 300, I will see a 9" group at 600 instead of an 8".

I have run about twenty of these series and all but two increased 125%.

Next the group pattern does not dupe at 600 yards.

I had two groups that increased approximately 90% at 600. In other words 4" at 300 got 7.5" at 600.

During testing I chronograph each shot and plot the shots as fired at 300. For instance I had a flier at 300 and say it was at 10 o'clock however the 600 yard target did not show a flier at 10 o'clock at 600. I have had fliers at 600 that do not dupe at 300.

Extreme care must be taken to insure the rifle is fired from the same position each shot.

Our section did a sniper rifle test at Aberdeen PG many years ago and there were targets at 500 and 1000. Obviously the mid range trajectory was way up there so a mechanism was constructed that allowed the target at 500 to be lowered for replacement and plotting and raised back to the same spot.

They were man fired as it was proven many years before that a man firing a weapon could beat a FA mount and it was concluded the only advantage the FA mount gave was it did not develop eye fatigue and in the case of ammo testing allowed fast follow on shots.

The accuracy (which we referred to as dispersion testing) was required to be fired by three NRA Master Class rifle shooters holding either highpower or smallbore classification. Several of us held both.
We had professional gunners with between three and five million rounds of experience. They were outstanding at loading mags, pulling triggers, picking up brass but when it came to shooting believe it or not they were not that good. They didn't like not being considered good and to prove it to them I set up a series of tests on 100 yard indoor range. We all shot same rifle, same lot of ammo and I beat them every time. They were trigger pullers, not shooters.
What really burned them up was I was able to produce smaller groups than they could using the FA mount with same ammo, same rifle etc.

During my series here I had the most amazing thing happen. I shot the first two shots at 300 yards and it was a perfect double so I stopped the test immediately and went down to 600 to check the results.

OK the question of the day is how far would you expect shots to be separated at 600 yards that went through the same hole at 300 yards?

Anyone else ever tried this?

 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

My though it that if you are shooting through anything (even paper) that the paper is affecting the bullet no matter how light it is. With that being said, I dont know that I agree with your testing method. Its interesting but I just dont know that I agree with it for the reasons I stated.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

I read the post, then re-read it and maybe I am missing something, but if you aim with a 300 yard hold, won't the bullet drop off the paper at 600 yards?

Now I maybe thinking in the wrong direction, and I have not had my coffee yet this morning, so maybe I am not understanding what I am reading correctly.

Just a quick look at the Federal Ballistics data shows with a 200 yards zero, 10 inches of drop at 300 yards and 50 inches drop at 500 yards, so I am trying to figure out how you are hitting two targets 300 yards apart with a single point of aim.

I am not trying to be critical, so I hope I have not come across wrong, just trying to figure it out.

Thanks
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

The 300 yard target is elevated above the line of sight to the 600 yard target, so that the trajectory of a 600 yard shot will pass through the target at 300 yards.

For example, with my .308 load on a standard day, my bullet is 37.75 inches high at 300 yards when I'm dialed up for a 600 yard shot - so that's how the target would have to be above the line of sight.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Thanks for the clarification. I was trying to process the concept this morning before the grey matter had kicked in for the day, and could not get a mental picture of this, but after reading your response I get it now. For some reason I was just picturing two identical targets / stands set up 300 yards apart and knew there was no way that was going to work.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

I did not think about others trying to do this and did not think to explain the mechanics.
On my 600 yard range the targets are set at a level to where I can have one firing point and all shots hit the same backstop regardless of the range I am shooting at. Thusly at 100 yard my target is set so the bullets will impact at the base of the backstop.
At 300 yards the target is approximately six feet in the air and I can see the "backer" target under the 300 yard target. Takes a bit of lining up and I use a 4X6 ft. backer target covered with news print.
RangeRoofTP08.jpg

In this pic of range I have targets set up in front of firing position at 50, 100, 200 and 300 which can barely be seen. Range to backstop is actually 635 yards and the closer range targets are set at varying heights to deliver shots into base of backstop.

Target Material: I use old political signs made from Coreplast which is a PVC material that is corregated. Holds up for two years in the weather and very resistant to high winds. I cut circles out of Coreplast where the target center is stapled. This not only removes the material from behind the light paper but allows a cleaner hole to be seen with spotting scope as the light is not blocked from back of target.
I guess the arguement could be made that any material a bullet goes through will affect the bullet but there are two reasons I did it this way.
First is this is the same way Aberdeen Proving Ground (now known as Aberdeen Test Center) has done it for years and they have seen no need to change. Perhaps there are those that are not familiar with Aberdeen (APG). It is the premier test center for weapons testing and evaluation for the US military. It has been so recognized by foreign military organizations as such and they have also had their material tested there under APG Test Director Guidance. Paper (one layer) and Osnaburg Cloth have long been used as the APG test standards to record projectile pass through data. Cloth is used to test HE projectiles to record groups so that the nose fuse will not detonate when it hits soft surface. I conducted testing on 25MM ammo through cloth with no detonation. It was interesting to shoot the groups and watch the detonations as the rounds hit the ground 500 yards past the target and I don't remember seeing any wild shots detonating elsewhere.
One would also think rain drops will affect bullets and I have fired and watched many rounds fired and watched the patches of mist appear as the bullet strikes the rain in route to the target.
My Dad set the range record for smallbore rifle prone at the National Mid Winter Championships 1948 at St. Petersburg, Florida shooting 22 LR at 200 yards in a driving rain storm. He had a 198 and a pile of Xs. I remember him telling me it was like having a coach as he just laid there and watched the rain as he aimed through the Lyman Super Targetspot scope and if the angle of the rain changed he held off and they kept going right in. I have the target somewhere. There are two 9s at 3 o'clock about 1/2" apart for the points he lost. Apparently the guy that held the record thought so too as he filed a protest against my Dad based on his expert opinion that such a score was not possible even in good weather and the protest was denied as the the NRA supplied referee who signed the target along with the guys in the pits who were watching the rounds come in. Logically one would think the rain would really affect a 40 gr. bullet starting at 1040 fps or so but apparently not.

As the range shed is covered I can test in the rain and I have never experienced any negative effects. As well I have shot in rain a number to times and had good scores. I have seen matches canceled due to rain but it was because the targets turned to mush (smallbore) and/or the pasters would not stick (highpower) or because of large bolts of RBS seen in the distance.
If I am to be firing standing/sitting I go down range to the 200/300 yard line or use a portable target frame for firing 600 reduced targets at 200 with target mounted lower. There are three prone cement firing points under another shed that cannot be seen that are hidden by the shop building to left of firing position.
For handguns 22,38/357,44,45 etc I just shoot straight away as the bullets are found laying on the ground about 300 to 400 yards down range after they have mowed a bit of grass.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

I have done something similar to this while testing loads with my Sharps. No optics.

Here is the difference for me though.

For starters, if you shoot through paper.... it will effect you bullet, doesn't matter how light the paper is. Just how it works.

Go ahead and shoot your 300 yard group. See how it does. Then run your scope up, aperture sights for me, to your 600 yard dope. use the 300 yards target for your aiming point and have your 600 target directly behind. You put rounds on target at 600 and have the perfect sight picture of the closer range target.

I generally use the target at 100 yards for this exercise, I can't see what the advantage of 300 yards would be.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

The way it is done at NSWC Crane a “Small Arms Center of Excellence” the SOCOM go to people are using acoustic targets and Doppler radar. This does not affect the projectile in any way and will give you BC’s, time of flight, and velocity at any range. Each shot at each range is recorded along with wind, tempture, and humidity. Using this process it backs Hummer’s data, I can’t say it is 125% but they are bigger.

Alan
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

My process is just something I came up with for load development with non-optical sighting systems.

No science behind it. I can't believe that shooting though a target would not change something about the flight characteristics of the bullets, even if it is the slightest change.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

You said in doing the test, you found that with a 4" group at 300, you'd have a 9" group at 600.
You don't think the paper your shooting through is effecting the bullet?

Your bullet is not hitting the paper symetricaly. There's no way your setting the paper up at a perfect 90 to the bullet path. Therefor, doesn't it have to deflect the bullet at least a little? Hence giving you the larger moa groups at longer range, and rendering the test useless?

Wouldn't a 300 yard aim point, with a 600 yard impact target make more sense?

I don't believe the paper has no effect on the bullet
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

You said two groups got smaller at double the range(90% increase)

I think that's the paper deflecting the bullet in your favor. What do you atribute that to?
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Another possibility is that dispersion is proportional to time of flight and not to distance. Time of flight to 600 is more than double the time of flight to 300.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Well I called two retired ordnance engineering types today and bounced the dissenting opinions off them. One was another guy that retired from the small arms and ammunition section at Aberdeen. He says the test operation procedure is still in effect using news print and cloth.
Both said paper is not going to affect anything measurable because if that was known to be the case it would have been documented years ago and everyone would know about it.
One said he had run same round studies through three targets. 300, 500 and 1000 meters. The first target (300 meters) showed yaw and bullets had been through nothing but air and the 500 and 1000 yard targets showed round holes.
He also said he had done 100 and 300 yard testing of 7.62 MG ammo with targets mounted on 1/4" plywood and the 300 yard target showed normal round impacts of the appropriate dispersion.

Just hung up with another Test Director and he had a even more awesome story I was not aware of. He as I were recommended by L.F. Moore for our positions. They were doing pine board penetration tests with 5.56 SS110 CCGM projos and the SS110 penetrated 45 1 inch pieces of pine board at 25 yards and punched a round hole in the witness paper after exit.

I told him about others opinions and he has a rather unique suggestion you should consider. Write up the documented test data you have in a Beneficial Suggestion with drawings of how you want the Test Operation Procedure (written in the 50s) to be changed documenting the proof the TOP is flawed, your proposed test methodology, the projected cost savings or rationale for increased test costs and send it to the Commander of the Aberdeen Test Center. If they adopt it you will be notified and given a cash award for your suggestion.

In the meantime you have the opinion of three test directors from Aberdeen with about 135 years in the ordnance field and one weapons designer with over fifty years experience. We are all agreed that the existing Test Operation Procedure was written by L. F. Moore who died about 2003 who had 40 years in the weapons development, test and evaluation field and who published many technical documents based on his test experience at APG in the Rifleman and other publications and none of us has ever seen any such documentation and we are all of the opinion if such flawed documentation was discovered, Larry Moore would have been the one to change it. As well we are not aware of anyone ever proving any of his test results were flawed.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Paper effects it or not, I don't really see what you think you're accomplishing by trying to get two different targets with 1 bullet. Why not just shoot them each independently using a 100yd aim point, if you're so concerned about mirage throwing your shot off?

You shoot a 4" group @ 300 in a no-wind/mirage condition?
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: runngun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another possibility is that dispersion is proportional to time of flight and not to distance. Time of flight to 600 is more than double the time of flight to 300.</div></div>

That's something I'll enjoy thinking about. Thanks.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

The four inch number at 300 was just a theoretical number. The Army MTU accepted Match M14s at 4.5" so that is a good round number for demonstration purposes.
Someone pointed out time of flight.
The Sierra Inf 5 calculator figuring a 175MK at the velocities of 2540 to 2570 (30 fps extreme spread) projects a vertical dispersion of about 1.4" at 300 yards. The same extreme spread calculated for 600 yards is about 3.3".
Then you have meplat variation and jacket uniformity to contend with. Then there is the theory of compensating barrel effects and barrel quality. As well you have the bullets heating up causing jacket material expansion and or separation of the core from contact with the jacket and then there is bullet weight variation, variation from base to end of bearing surface , bore fouling from jacket material and carbon residue, barrel harmonics changing as it heats up, in bore yaw,how long it takes each bullet to stabilize, gas erosion of the bearing surface (all bullets do not contact equally in all barrels. Some ride the lands almost completely and some have a large contact area in the grooves which may or may not remove copper jacket material from bullet affecting projectile weight. Next there is twist rate to contend with as some bullets like a specific twist rate. The crown can affect things as well. Headspace can have an effect, freebore, case neck variation between rounds causing bore misalignment. Misalignment of the bore centerline with the barrel center line. Unequal lug contact. A banana shaped receiver belly is a real killer. Receiver not bedded in a relaxed set up . Receiver front end or threads out of square. Pillars not installed correctly. Marginal striker velocity. Marginal striker energy. Case to case volume variation. Internal neck finish uniformity. Inconsistant bullet pull forces which can vary from a couple pounds to 250 pounds and more and still be in factory tolerance. Bullets forming bond with case neck variation. Off center flash holes. Variation in flash holes. Carbon build up in cases. Not launching in the sweet spot velocity window. Excessive or insufficient port window envelope pressure. etc etc etc.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The point is to take out the shot-to-shot variation caused by differences in muzzle velocity.
</div></div>

But you're still just talking about averages over time. Unless you can find some way to correlate the 600 and 300 yd targets to every single shot and still calculate useful data describing 10+ groups of 5 over a period of time, what kind of telemetry have you really gotten vs shooting 10 groups @ 300 then 10 groups @ 600?

So now you know, excluding the Hawthorne effect debate surrounding your newsprint, exactly what your group would have done @ 600 yds and 300 yds for that given group of 5. So what? That group of 5 is over, in the past, never to be repeated again for all the reasons you so happily listed above. If you are not simply adding these data points to a larger set for predicting the avg, es, and sd of your group then you've got basically a completely useless set of data because it will never ever be repeated exactly like that again.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you can find some way to correlate the 600 and 300 yd targets to every single shot and still calculate useful data describing 10+ groups of 5 over a period of time, what kind of telemetry have you really gotten vs shooting 10 groups @ 300 then 10 groups @ 600?</div></div>

What you're describing is precisely what was done in tests which I know took place - the recording of the exact shot placement of <span style="font-style: italic">each shot</span> in <span style="font-style: italic">each target</span>.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you can find some way to correlate the 600 and 300 yd targets to every single shot and still calculate useful data describing 10+ groups of 5 over a period of time, what kind of telemetry have you really gotten vs shooting 10 groups @ 300 then 10 groups @ 600?</div></div>

What you're describing is precisely what was done in tests which I know took place - the recording of the exact shot placement of <span style="font-style: italic">each shot</span> in <span style="font-style: italic">each target</span>.
</div></div>

Well that's interesting but I think gleaning any useful (additional) information out of it (other than possibly calculating a BC) is beyond my meager statistics skills, though it doesn't sound like the OP was doing that.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Well, I'm not precisely sure what the OP was doing with his data. I was commenting on the procedure, which has more than one use. And there are people whose statistical skills are not meager, which I don't mean to be an insult to you personally.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

That's a really nice list of factors affecting accuracy - which I'm going to file for future use.

And you have a P.M.

 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

The title is 'want to see how well your rifle really shoots?'

I think it is interesting food for thought, however i think that if you want to know how well your rifle really shoots at 600yds you need to aim and shoot it at 600yds. I had a rifle that shot 3/4" group averages at 100yds. At 500yds three 5 shot groups, for a total of 15 shots, averaged 3". How do you explain that? I have seen loads do wierd things like shrink in terms of moa, group phenominally at 300yds then fall apart at 500yds, shoot .4 moa at 300yds then print 2.5" groups at 1000yds etc. It just seems to me that ignoring the conditions from 300-600yds and having something touch the bullet in flight doesn't seem very scientific.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I'm not precisely sure what the OP was doing with his data. I was commenting on the procedure, which has more than one use. And there are people whose statistical skills are not meager, which I don't mean to be an insult to you personally.
</div></div>

No insult taken, that was sort of my point. Collecting the data is pointless unless you are equipped to interpret it and I would wager that there are only a very few here (hi Bryan, enjoyed your book) who could glean any useful info from the procedure. Looking back I see that you were the only person I quoted so it may seem as though I was arguing with regarding the validity of the tests you mentioned but my point was more with the OP, who described in great detail what kind of paper to get but the extent of the data analysis instructions was "look, it's more than twice as big at twice the range!"
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Random rantings...

Seems like a lot of work.

Its just a theoretical accuracy test. In the real world, only shooting at distance will tell you how accurate you are at distance.

I do know even a leaf will cause 223 to keyhole into the target. Doubt the test will work with light bullets.



 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Such testing is a long and drawn out process. At the PG it would have been 3 ten shot groups fired by three NRA master class shooters.
Depending on the number of test samples submitted a decision would be made of which rifles to submit to the long range testing multiple target dispersion.
Normally there is a ten or twelve rifle sample. Each rifle would be bench fired and machine rest fired to determine the one that fired the smallest acceptance group, the one that fired the median acceptance group and the one that fired the worst acceptance group.

The test targets would be plotted on each group and shot placement X and Y would be recorded in millimeters from datum lines. All this data would be fed into a computer program and the computer would calculate the mathematical center of each group, measure the extreme spread and average the mathematical center of all nine groups and calculate the mathematical center of all groups which would be reproduced in the report on a graph.
Thus you would have a pretty good base for the average group size that could be expected at each range for a average cross sample.

Some rifle systems like the M16 are fired, then submitted to a random parts interchange and retested. This is to preclude a vendor from hand selecting/tuning test rifles. On some weapon systems there is a mandatory interchangeability requirement.

Before my buddy from the Brit 300 meter team died he or I would record each shot velocity and plot and the shooter would plot the 300 yard group and the other would move from cover and number the shot holes at 600 as they were fired. We could only do this for maybe three tests and he died. Now I don't have anyone to shoot with and I have to do a modified test that I can do by myself.

A similar thing would be done to determine the drop data at each yard/meter line depending on what the report called for. We had a target board that was 32 feet tall and 32 feet wide. We zeroed for POA/POI and moved back every 100 to whatever the test called for. We never touched the sights once it was zeroed at the base range.
Three rifles were used firing 3 ten shot groups by each shooter at each yard line. These were measured in MM so we had 270 shot plots for each yard line and these were fed into a program and the drops for each projectile type was correlated and we had good drop data for ammo.
The guys at Ballistic Research Lab told me that computer projections only correlated 5% of the time in actual firing and that may be good data for only one or two yard lines. They told me when the three gun series came in they checked the projections and changed the ballistic tables to correlate with actual testing to arrive at the ballistic tables.
In another post I related how John Unertl told me he was given four sets of ballistic calculations for M118 Match and none were the same and none were correct. I got him a set of the Aberdeen adjusted tables and he said they were on the money.
Also the Aberdeen data was shot at about an estimated 5 to 10 feet ASL as the range was flat and we shot into Chesapeake Bay.

As indicated above the object of the exercise is to see if there is a compensating barrel effect on some rifles and obviously there are a lot of variables at long range.

One interesting conversation I sat in on was at the Army Small Cal Lab when I was before going to APG. We had this Phd type and the discussion was on sniper rifles and we were talking about the Dragunov system and he made the statement that a rifle that shot one inch at 100 yards would shoot 10" at 1000 and without any prior planning two of us said "No". He said he could prove it by math and the other guy who was a Korean Sniper and former member of the big Marine Team - Quantico said he didn't care what the calculations said, it didn't happen that way in the real world.
I have seen guys (at least five times) show up at Perry with computer print outs and they would be there during prep consulting their data, taking temp readings etc and lay down and fire the first shot and target come up a miss at 1000.

Every time I hear folks quoting this law/effect it reminds me of the federal agent story where this agent shows up at a farm and says he has a search warrant and farmer tells him to stay out of that area behind the barn and the agent proceeds to tell him he is a federal officer, shows him his baddge and tells the farmer he can do damn well what he wants to and proceeds into the area.
A few minutes later the agent comes screaming and running past the barn with a bull after him.
The farmer yells, "show him your badge".
Those shooters showed the data to the rifle but as most of us know rifles can't read and they do what they like. Or as the other famous saying goes, "there is always that 10% that don't get the word."

This is why the acceptance requirement on the M24 sniper rifle is so large. They want to be able to accept enough rifles that will meet the spec because if they have some requirement like 1.5" at 300 yards they know there will be a large number of rejections. Fortunately when most of these rifles are exposed to fine dining (very good ammo) they shoot a lot better.
Then there is the rejection criteria. Normally it is 150% of the acceptance group or exceeds 200 fps velocity loss. For the M16 the acceptance was 4.5" at 100 yards and 7.2" rejection.

I know the guy who conducted the test on the M24 and he told me it was within acceptance spec for the full 10,000 rounds which gives the reader some idea how large the acceptance groups are.

A very good friend of mine was the Project Officer for the Army Sniper Rifle system and he said before he retired he was at Benning and they had rifles there with 15 to 17K on them in the school that had not reached rejection dispersion yet.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Fascinating discussion.

One question. When firing at multiple targets, how did you reference the elevation of the two targets? Did you use a transit level, or some other method?
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

In my case my first consideration is safety even though my range is about level. I put my David White transit level on my bench and found top of my bench was about a foot higher than center aim point of my steel plate targets at 600.
I set my 300 yard target to where a round through the middle will impact the base of the backstop at 635 yards.

According to the topos I am 305 ft ASL give or take.

There is nothing for a mile behind me but no use risking putting one over if I don't have to. Never know when some jerk might be administering wild root medicine to his girl friend back in woods behind me. haha.
I fired a few shots and observed the impact and it appeared to be about two feet off the ground so I set the backer so it would record the bullet when it arrived down range and bullet would hit at base of backstop.

It was far more involved at PG. Mid range trajectory was known and there was a rather exotic target carrier fabbed that raised the target for every series. On that one the shooters had to use the 1000 yard target as a aim point.

Not only was the down range target 32' square, we had a portable target that was 16X16. That range was reduced to 2500 yards. Originally laid out as 5000 yards. We had another that was 1500 yards. The big range had a paved one lane road that ran down left side which was about 40 yards wide and the short range was a one lane road that was about 20 feet wide down through the woods. I understand the first 300 yards of if is a indoor range now. And that there is bullet holes all through it so I guess it is a air conditioned 300 yard indoor range.

Just had a chuckle, when we shot on that range at night we had the targets lit by a 60KW generator powering up 12 150 watt flood lights that lit the target. You could sit there in the dark and watch the deer come out of the woods and stand next to the road. Half would look at target and other half looked at us.
The deer were queer for tracers. You could watch their heads turn as the tracers went by like spectators at a ski jump. They were funny. I always held up if I saw them behind target just as I do here. Wife has Bambi syndrome so she won't cook them even if I shot them so I try not to shoot them. They had a hard enough time there as you would see them with a leg gone limping around. 25MM HE is a equal opportunity devastator.

I prefer to use the 300 as aim point for several reasons.
1. It is 300 yards closer.
2. A 20X scope gives a smaller aiming error because I can use a smaller aiming point. i.e. 1" black paster at 300 is easier to center than 3" black dot at 600. Movement is detected easier at 300.
3. Working by yourself placing a aim point on the backer at 600 does not guarantee where you will impact at 300 where you want it to.
4. I try to test on cold overcast days where there is no mirage and no wind which doesn't happen that often around here. When my buddy was here we could shoot in the evenings when the mirage died and wind quit but there is a limited time window about 70 minutes before you need lighting.

Should I get the cement bench top mounted on columns at 900 I will try and rig a mid range target and use the 900 yard target as a aim point. Might be able to do one at 100 as well.

I am wanting to test a SMLE No 4 I barreled up in 7MM Confederate Sabre to see if it compensates at long range like the 303 round does in them. I am not sure the barrel quality is real good though so it may be a waste of ammo.


Problem here is wind during the day. It can get up pretty good and will blow targets over that are only five feet high. It would be a considerable effort to construct such.

Also it would be a bear to mount chronograph screens that high in the air. Guess I could do it like large cal did at PG. Suspend the screens between two towers and raise it till it aligns with bore and let go.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

The 300 yard target only affects my first shot, all the other shots pass cleanly through the first hole.

Good reading though, makes food for thought.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Have you tried firing thru 300 and hitting at 600 as stated above, then firing at 600 only to see if your data correlates with each other? (as in same group sizes at 600yds). That would be interesting to see if its the same. I would suspect that a master level shoooter reading the additional wind from 300-600yds would be able to compensate and get smaller groups at 600.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

This is a terrible range for shooting groups at 600 as the mirage looks like you are looking over a field on fire. The wind blows 95% of the time from 10 to 4 or 4 towards 10. Then about six PM in summer it cuts off. Mirage really dies but not as dead as it does on a cold overcast day, it is dead calm.
If I am working on loads I shoot at 3/4" high hard armor plate painted white with a 3" black dot (can with lids cut out used for template). It this is tried during the day I can set the scope up on the dot and let go of the rifle and watch the dot rotate through all four quadrants of the scope and the rifle is not moving. It is so bad it is hard to see the splashes when the 30 cal bullets hit the plate but in evening you can see 5.56 bullets hit the plate. I get instant feed back when checking loads. 30.06 nor 300 Win mag even disturb the surface on this plate, just takes off the paint and that is quickly cured with a can of white spray paint.
The other day I got some disc harrow blades I have to rig up for gongs.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Amen on that, I have told myself the same thing many times haha.

Actually that is not ideal because the quality of the optics and the distance (as well as the user’s eyesight) can introduce errors and at 300 yards it follows that the same holding error shows up on both targets. Sighting at 600 yards can introduce even more aim error at 300 yards plus it makes it very hard to place the target on the backer target to align it with 300 yard target. For those that have the time/inclination try setting a target up at 600 and then figuring how where to put 300 yard target to get center hits on it. Sighting at both ranges introduces two different aiming errors.

Not too long ago surveyors used range rods/stadia to calculate distance and it was recognized that method had errors (due to different users eyesight, scope quality) thusly the introduction of laser technology. I read the other day the accuracy of a transit with stadia measuring on range rod was at best had one foot of error at only 600 feet.
If you look at a range rod target there are fine lines dividing an inch so more precide measurement can be taken. I need to check it out but I don't think the transit scope will focus on those lines that far away. I am guessing about a hundred feet is gonna be it.

Any of you guys surveyors? My neighbor was a surveyor for the gov't and he used his own K&E outfit and he got me to help him establish the line between him and me. We used a "surveyor's chain" which if I remember correctly was 66' and I had to use a plumb bob to mark the spot I put a nail in the ground before we moved.

When I get time to get back to this thing I am going to put an aiming point much closer and shoot aiming at graph paper where I can remove as much aiming error as I can out of the scenario. Same principle that used to be used in artillery with the aiming stakes close to the guns where the effect of mirage is significantly reduced.

Winchester used to have a 600 yard indoor range in Connecticut and there was a hump in the middle of the range that precluded them seeing any targets at 600 and they did fine work aiming at 300 and hitting at 600.

If I ever hit the lottery big I will construct my own 600 yard indoor range haha.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

or maybe the test experts were smokin the ganga for all these years. sounds whack to me.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If I ever hit the lottery big I will construct my own 600 yard indoor range haha. </div></div>

If that were the case for me I wouldn't have to go far. The building I work in is 630 yards long. I don't think they would sell it to me though.

Branden
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

I have a mag lying around somewhere that discusses precision shooters learning how well their rifles really shot by actually shooting in a draft-free warehouse in Texas that was several hundred meters long.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

They were doing 200 yards with heavy bench guns. Long article but very interesting.

Hey Dust Remover, you don't want to buy it, just borrow it ! ! !! </div></div>

Thanks, that's the article. Didn't know it was on the internet, and I'm impressed you found it/knew what I was talking about.

The shooting lane in the building was 325 yards, but they rarely shot at 200 or 300. The reasoning was that if a rifle shoots well, without interference from the air, at 100, it shoots well at 200, 300, etc., the differences being the Indian, not the arrow.

Great read. Always makes me wonder about "21 3/4 inches"...
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Another thing happens indoors that will blow your mind. I used to go in to the Proving Ground and open an indoor range on Saturday morning over the winter or Sunday after church. It is somewhat cold in range and the mirage coming off your body while you are shooting iron sights goes right up in front of and behind rear sight and distorts sight picture to hell and gone. It will really screw with you.

I did some research today on the Winchester 600 yard range. Last guy I figured that would have used it was Ed Matunas and I found he died from cancer about a year back. Guy I got hold of was at East Alton and never shot on it.

Does anyone out there have any poop on this range?
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Body mirage? Yup, learn something new every day.

Looks like you share my fascination with indoor shooting (long range) as it eliminates so many variables. I wish all long range tests and comparisons were done indoors.

Another factoid you may find interesting is that for 40 years Remington tested, and collected data, on their custom builds by shooting in a tunnel.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

when my buddies at Secret Service told me indoors wasn't what it was cracked up to be I wondered what they were talking about and then I found out.
Apparently there is no one left alive who knows anything about the 600 yard range. I know they had test facilities out at Blue Trail Range but they were extremely delapidated 30 years ago. It wasn't indoors though.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

The Army Marksmanship Unit has five test ranges and fixtures for proofing loads and rifles (one indoor rimfire, one for pistols, and three for rifles). All three outdoor rifle ranges are equipped with massive steel V-block rests and benchrest tables.

The first is instrumented with Suis-Ascor electronic acoustic targets and chronographs at muzzle and at 300 Meters. The instrumentation will tell you all kinds of data including muzzle velocity and 300 Meter retained velocity; group size (horizontal and vertical dispersion); ten-shot group plots; standard deviation; etc., etc.

Rifles are either locked into a cradle or a locking system that grabs on to Picatinny rails or the action; fired from a benchrest; or fired by a human from position.

The first range has interlocking pine trees forming a wind blocking tunnel. The second is a 600-yard known distance range, and the third is a 1,000-yard KD range. Proofing runs are usually conducted early in the morning when mirage and wind are nil / insignificant, although tests can be run at any time.

Loads can also be heat-soaked or cold-soaked to give data on climate extremes.

The rimfire range is indoors at Pool Range and if memory serves goes to 100 Meters off either a machine rest block or a benchrest table (although the backstop wall will take up to .50 BMG).

The last range is to proof pistol builds and loads to 50 yards.

Out in Phoenix Mid Tompkins used to test Palma loads and rifles on the Ben Avery Range. He could measure both muzzle velocity and retained velocity at the targets -- you could shoot from any yard line, but I think he concentrated on retained velocities for working up 1,000-yard and Palma sets.

Someone industrious can check on some of these older closed military bases. Some aircraft and airship maintenance hangars can go 600 yards indoors, easy. Bullet traps wouldn't be hard to build.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

yes Maertens Range is like indoors in the early morning. It has been refurbed now. When I shot on it, the place was a shambles but now I see it on TV and it is looking quite nice. MTU would be out there checking out 1000 yard rifles in the morning.
They have great test facilities.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

Very interesting posts. I'll have to do some thinking about the data presented.

It appears that some of the bullet hole descriptions described above represent marginally stabilized bullets. Since the linear velocity degrades more quickly than the angular velocity, it is nmot uncommon for the bullet to yaw at short ranges (short TOF) and stabilize at longer reanges (as the linear velocity degrades more quickly than angular), allowing the ratio of angular to linear velocity to reach a more stabile (gyroscopically)value. Marginal stabilization may explain the increase in group sizes, as I would think that yaw would increase randomly for a somewhat repeatable time of flight until a suitable ratio of angular/linear velocity is achieved, and then damp out over a non-uniform amount of time which would be dependent upon the yaw angle at the moment at which gyroscopic stabilazation ratios are attained. Bryan's book speaks well to this mechanism.

Time of flight is the root factor of trajectory errors due to such infuences as spin drift and other predictable forces. TOF and distance are related for any given set of projectile and velocity datum, the result is the trajectory prediction. Some forces are predictable, some are not very predictable.

I would think that TOF would amplify trajectory variatons due to imperfections in bullets, jackets, rifling engraving grooves, jacket concentricity, and other bullet anomolies.

TOF would also amplify the effects random forces such as wind, non-homogeneous patches of 'air' in the bullet path. I would think that wind (particularly gusts and random gusts) would produce a more uniform 'fluid' (air) as it would constantly and perhaps randomly 'stir' the air, producing uniformity of air density. On the other hand, calm winds would produce 'pockets' of varying air densities caused by uneven heating due to different light levels or different light to heat conversion rates across non-uniform terrain or surfaces. The basic mechanics of wind formation is heating of air causing it to become lighter and rise, causing other air to flow in to take the risen air's place. On a micro basis, this could well effect trajectory. Either case would produce unpredictable results. I would think that wind would cause horizontal dispersions and non-uniform air density would produce vertical dispersions.

Trajectory calculations would necessarily assume a uniform air density, since defining variations in densities would be somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible. Any variation in air density would cause non-uniform drag, and resulting non-uniform decelleration. therefore horizontal motion is dependent on air density while vertical motion is dependent only on gravity.

All of these effects (except wind) are probably small and somewhat unpredictable. An interesting exercise would be to set up identical indoor and outdoor ranges and compare data to identify which forces disappear indoors, other than the influences of sun, wind, and similar variables. The challenge would be to analyze the data without prejudice. I would find it difficult to keep my imagination in check, as I would probably have a predisposition for a given explaination or result.

Perhaps a group of knowledgable people could reach a reasonable conclusion. The question would become, what is the practical value of the knowledge. That is to say, better accuracy is probably achievable, but at what cost, and what level of accuracy is adequate?

Very interesting discussion and facts.......Thanks for the start, Hummer
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

I done concluded that things go to hell the more the range is increased.haha
Had a friend who watched a 1000 yd bench demo at Quantico a number of years back and this guy was chonographing each shot. He shot a seven shot string (5 shot group) and had an extreme spread of 5 FPS. All he was interested in was the chrono and he said it was amazing. Good group too.
Maybe somebody can tell us how he achieved 5 fps in a 300 Win Mag. All the theory about bullet flight is useless if the elevation is going to kill us and 5 fps is a good place to start.haha. Get me to 5 fps and I will worry about the rest later haha.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

OH yeah I realize that. I forgot to add that my friend got to talking to him about his loads and he said he could keep them under 10fps ES but ahhhh failed to relate how he got it so low. He asked him about loading and all he got was a smile. haha.

I would have liked to have chronographed a guy I shot with at Perry once. He fired 22 shots at 600 and never touched the sights for last 21 and all shots went under a soda can (only thing to measure with) and the can was held horizontal. I asked him about his load and he said Creighton Audette had loaded it for him.
 
Re: Want to see how well your rifle really shoots?

I'm dead sure <span style="text-decoration: underline">you</span> know that - but not everybody does. I've seen many times people posting the SD and ES of some 5-shot group as if it meant something other than an indication of the average velocity, and, for that matter, of a 3-shot group.