Weird concentricity problems

[kowdok]

First off, I have been a long time reader here and have learned a great deal from you guys. Thanks!! But I am a short time member and this is my first post. Second, I have been trying to improved my handloads the last couple years for distance shooting.

My problem Is weird concentricity results. I have spent several days trying to figure out what is happening. The equipment I used is
7x fired 6.5 CM Lapua In great condition, primer pockets are still tight, annealed at every reload etc.
MEC press
Redding Type S full length bushing die
Forster neck sizing/shoulder bump die
21st Century gauge, recently replacing a red gauge.

Runout is consistently at 0.0010 or less after firing. Irregardless of die, but runout becomes 0.0040 or worse after either die. I scoured the posts here and tried several things I picked up such as O-rings on the die, tightening locknut with a steel plate between shell holder and die, different amount of bushing ‘play’. Nothing helped. I should add that I clean my dies just before I use them so that I don’t have to remember wether or not I did clean them. I use lanolin lube and have thought I would try something else. I don’t use the dies‘ expander balls, they have been removed.

I had a crazy idea and didn’t tighten the lock nut leaving some ‘wobble’ in the die and runout was less <0.0020 with most being 0.0010 or better. I read in a post to mark the brass to determine if TIR was due to die or press. So I checked runout before sizing, but didn’t note the location on the brass because it was so small. Then I marked the brass for orientation in the press and ran the brass through the press. When I rechecked runout I marked the ‘high’ and ’low’ value locations on the brass and compared them with the orientation mark. After running 3 pieces at one die setting, I screwed the die in or out about 1/3 turn and ran 3 more cases. Much to my surprise the ‘high’ mark on every case was in the same relative location with respect to the orientation mark. I have done this with the Redding die only.

My conclusion is it isn’t a die problem although I haven’t tried the Forster die because I’m down to only 5 remaining fired cases. I really hate to think is is the press, but plan to call MEC this week. Has anyone experienced this? What elese can I try to either eliminate or evaluate the problem?

I have also thought I would trash these cases rather than wasting components and barrel to ’reform’ them, rather than deal with CBTO differences, After all I have 7 firings on them now. But maybe I could measure and group all the cases to load sets of representative cases to test for differences. Any thoughts?

Again, thanks for what I have already learned and am anxious for your for your thoughts/experiences/advice.

 

[Dthomas3523]

What press?

Also, .004 runout won’t affect anything on paper.

 

[308pirate]

Again, thanks for what I have already learned and am anxious for your for your thoughts/experiences/advice.

How does your ammo shoot?

You do realize that the purpose of reloading for precision rifles is NOT to make ammo that has perfect runout/concentricity/true position/whatever, right?

The purpose of all of this to have a load that exceeds your accuracy requirements. If those requirements are met, who cares what bullet runout is?

 

[47guy]

How does your ammo shoot?

You do realize that the purpose of reloading for precision rifles is NOT to make ammo that has perfect runout/concentricity/true position/whatever, right?

The purpose of all of this to have a load that exceeds your accuracy requirements. If those requirements are met, who cares what bullet runout is?

THIS RIGHT HERE^^^!

again...reloading...the most over thought thing on the planet.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Don’t get me wrong, measuring runout has its purpose. And the purpose is to identify a flaw in your loading or equipment. Which it seems you have found and now need to identify before it gets worse. Though it’s nothing that needs to be rushed.

Keep shooting and loading while you troubleshoot. But don’t lose your mind over it.

 

[sleeplz]

 

[morganlamprecht]

what diameter is fired neck?

what size bushing?

what measured diameter is sized brass coming out? and is there any small flare at the mouth?

in my experience, if you move brass more than .004-.005 in 1 shot with bushings, there is going to be some runout show up

ex: my 6.5 fired necks are .295...if i size with a .290, necks come out .290, and virtually no run out

if i use a .289, necks over shoot and come out .287 w/ small mouth flare...runout in the .003-.006 range

if i size w/ .292 then follow with .289, necks come out .289 and virtually no run out

those numbers and spring back will change based on brass hardness...all of mine is amp annealed every firing so it stays soft

same thing occurs in wildcats when you start necking down...move the brass a bunch in 1 shot and runout will show

that said, i have standard full length sizing dies for my 6creeds, they induce runout in the .004 to .008 range, and still shoot

 

[Dthomas3523]

My 6x47 has .007 and sometimes more when I neck down from 6.5. I do it in one step, so as Morgan said, there’s a lot of runout. It fire forms out.

But it shoots the same before and after.

 

[308pirate]

My 6x47 has .007 and sometimes more when I neck down from 6.5. I do it in one step, so as Morgan said, there’s a lot of runout. It fire forms out.

But it shoots the same before and after.

When one does system analysis one finds which input variables have a significant effect on the output and which ones have a negligible effect. Those that have a negligible effect are not controlled within the same limits as those that have a significant effect.

Looks like you found an input variable that doesn't need tight control.

 

[straightshooter1]

First off, I have been a long time reader here and have learned a great deal from you guys. Thanks!! But I am a short time member and this is my first post. Second, I have been trying to improved my handloads the last couple years for distance shooting.

My problem Is weird concentricity results. I have spent several days trying to figure out what is happening. The equipment I used is
7x fired 6.5 CM Lapua In great condition, primer pockets are still tight, annealed at every reload etc.
MEC press
Redding Type S full length bushing die
Forster neck sizing/shoulder bump die
21st Century gauge, recently replacing a red gauge.

Runout is consistently at 0.0010 or less after firing. Irregardless of die, but runout becomes 0.0040 or worse after either die. I scoured the posts here and tried several things I picked up such as O-rings on the die, tightening locknut with a steel plate between shell holder and die, different amount of bushing ‘play’. Nothing helped. I should add that I clean my dies just before I use them so that I don’t have to remember wether or not I did clean them. I use lanolin lube and have thought I would try something else. I don’t use the dies‘ expander balls, they have been removed.

I had a crazy idea and didn’t tighten the lock nut leaving some ‘wobble’ in the die and runout was less <0.0020 with most being 0.0010 or better. I read in a post to mark the brass to determine if TIR was due to die or press. So I checked runout before sizing, but didn’t note the location on the brass because it was so small. Then I marked the brass for orientation in the press and ran the brass through the press. When I rechecked runout I marked the ‘high’ and ’low’ value locations on the brass and compared them with the orientation mark. After running 3 pieces at one die setting, I screwed the die in or out about 1/3 turn and ran 3 more cases. Much to my surprise the ‘high’ mark on every case was in the same relative location with respect to the orientation mark. I have done this with the Redding die only.

My conclusion is it isn’t a die problem although I haven’t tried the Forster die because I’m down to only 5 remaining fired cases. I really hate to think is is the press, but plan to call MEC this week. Has anyone experienced this? What elese can I try to either eliminate or evaluate the problem?

I have also thought I would trash these cases rather than wasting components and barrel to ’reform’ them, rather than deal with CBTO differences, After all I have 7 firings on them now. But maybe I could measure and group all the cases to load sets of representative cases to test for differences. Any thoughts?

Again, thanks for what I have already learned and am anxious for your for your thoughts/experiences/advice.

If you haven't seen or read the attached article "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse" . . . you should, as it can be enlightening (especially pages 4 - 8). Virgil King went to extreme measures to shoot in the .000 and though some of it may not be useful to someone like me who has limited ability and skill, it does help with perspective and in determining how far one may want to go with the details.

 

[Jordanwickham]

I'm going to say the bushing is your issue. I found this same issue. I was getting anywhere up to 8k run-out.
With that being said I also sent about 200 rounds between finding the issue and resolving the issue. I have a .295 neck in my chamber and was bushing down to .287. I tried two different methods to fix it. I did a two shot bushing which gave between 0-2k and a three shot which gives <1 always.
I'm currently running the two shot and debating if I really give enough of a shit to not cut that extra hour out of my process and have some 7k.
Another quick fix is the Lee Collet die which gives <1. But mines kind of boogered up and you play hell trying to get them right now.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Die rings aren't always flat or concentric. The split rings are fairly hard to get right actually. I stoned several different brands (Hornady, Forster, and Sinclair) and found the Hornady were the flatest (that doesn't indicate the threads are concentric though). My hypothesis is that the rings can cause the die to sit at an angle in the press rather than perfectly perpendicular to the ram. I'm not entirely sure how to test it though, you'd probably need a lathe and indicator. Either way, die rings are dirt cheap and I don't think they can possibly have any level of real QC for their price.

Does any of this matter? Maybe not.

 

[Dthomas3523]

When one does system analysis one finds which input variables have a significant effect on the output and which ones have a negligible effect. Those that have a negligible effect are not controlled within the same limits as those that have a significant effect.

Looks like you found an input variable that doesn't need tight control.

Yep. I’ve even tested by inducing runout. Both with bullet and with neck. Can’t find a meaningful difference on paper.

The throat and freebore only have so much clearance. I’m assuming it straightens it all out upon ignition.

 

[308pirate]

I absolutely refuse to do any reloading step that does not increase dispersion on target if one omits it. My time is worth too much to do shit that doesn't matter.

 

[kowdok]

What press?

Also, .004 runout won’t affect anything on paper.

I agree at 100/200 yds but when I get out to 600 I see some dispersion.

 

[kowdok]

I

How does your ammo shoot?

You do realize that the purpose of reloading for precision rifles is NOT to make ammo that has perfect runout/concentricity/true position/whatever, right?

The purpose of all of this to have a load that exceeds your accuracy requirements. If those requirements are met, who cares what bullet runout is?

I understand and agree. But if I somewhat consistently shoot 1/2 moa groups with one load and 1/3 groups with another I want to know why.

 

[kowdok]

THIS RIGHT HERE^^^!

again...reloading...the most over thought thing on the planet.

Yep, Eric Cortana sure seems to take something of a minimalist approach.

 

[kowdok]

If you haven't seen or read the attached article "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse" . . . you should, as it can be enlightening (especially pages 4 - 8). Virgil King went to extreme measures to shoot in the .000 and though some of it may not be useful to someone like me who has limited ability and skill, it does help with perspective and in determining how far one may want to go with the details.

I saw this a few years back but forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[kowdok]

Die rings aren't always flat or concentric. The split rings are fairly hard to get right actually. I stoned several different brands (Hornady, Forster, and Sinclair) and found the Hornady were the flatest (that doesn't indicate the threads are concentric though). My hypothesis is that the rings can cause the die to sit at an angle in the press rather than perfectly perpendicular to the ram. I'm not entirely sure how to test it though, you'd probably need a lathe and indicator. Either way, die rings are dirt cheap and I don't think they can possibly have any level of real QC for their price.

Does any of this matter? Maybe not.

I hadn’t thought about that or shell holders. I’ll try swapping some around (brands too) and see what happens. Thanks.

 

[kowdok]

Yep. I’ve even tested by inducing runout. Both with bullet and with neck. Can’t find a meaningful difference on paper.

The throat and freebore only have so much clearance. I’m assuming it straightens it all out upon ignition.

Maybe. But if the neck exerts uneven pressure at different points on the bullet wouldn’t that unevenness continue as the neck expands until it no longer contacts the bullet. If so might that not still affect the projectile as it enters the barrel. I don’t know-just asking. What runout did you create and what was you group size?

 

[kowdok]

When one does system analysis one finds which input variables have a significant effect on the output and which ones have a negligible effect. Those that have a negligible effect are not controlled within the same limits as those that have a significant effect.

Looks like you found an input variable that doesn't need tight control.

I have often argued a similar case when comparing the statistical difference of two treatments. Some always assume a probability of 0.01 is more important than one of 0.10. But if the difference between the two means is so small that it can’t be measured in the ‘real’ world what does it really mean?

 

[kowdok]

what diameter is fired neck?

what size bushing?

what measured diameter is sized brass coming out? and is there any small flare at the mouth?

in my experience, if you move brass more than .004-.005 in 1 shot with bushings, there is going to be some runout show up

ex: my 6.5 fired necks are .295...if i size with a .290, necks come out .290, and virtually no run out

if i use a .289, necks over shoot and come out .287 w/ small mouth flare...runout in the .003-.006 range

if i size w/ .292 then follow with .289, necks come out .289 and virtually no run out

those numbers and spring back will change based on brass hardness...all of mine is amp annealed every firing so it stays soft

same thing occurs in wildcats when you start necking down...move the brass a bunch in 1 shot and runout will show

that said, i have standard full length sizing dies for my 6creeds, they induce runout in the .004 to .008 range, and still shoot

Something to think about and try. Thanks

 

[kowdok]

Don’t get me wrong, measuring runout has its purpose. And the purpose is to identify a flaw in your loading or equipment. Which it seems you have found and now need to identify before it gets worse. Though it’s nothing that needs to be rushed.

Keep shooting and loading while you troubleshoot. But don’t lose your mind over it.

I understand and that is my concern - is there a mechanical problem that can be corrected. If so and if results were good and repeatable, it would Be one less thing to fuss about.

 

[kowdok]

I'm going to say the bushing is your issue. I found this same issue. I was getting anywhere up to 8k run-out.
With that being said I also sent about 200 rounds between finding the issue and resolving the issue. I have a .295 neck in my chamber and was bushing down to .287. I tried two different methods to fix it. I did a two shot bushing which gave between 0-2k and a three shot which gives <1 always.
I'm currently running the two shot and debating if I really give enough of a shit to not cut that extra hour out of my process and have some 7k.
Another quick fix is the Lee Collet die which gives <1. But mines kind of boogered up and you play hell trying to get them right now.

This reminded me that I have two Forster bushings of the same size - thought I’d lost one, ordered another, then found it in another box. I’ll try each but I’m concerned because I see the sane results with the Redding and the Forster bushing dies.

 

[Jordanwickham]

This reminded me that I have two Forster bushings of the same size - thought I’d lost one, ordered another, then found it in another box. I’ll try each but I’m concerned because I see the sane results with the Redding and the Forster bushing dies.

For the sake of doing it or what?
I'm just saying try not to go too much in one shot. I'm guessing you too have the standard ~.295 neck on the chambering. Going from .295-.288 or whatever your size is probably causing the concentricity issues.
I'm tired as shit so I may not be understanding your last post.

 

[E-Tool]

I’m not the best shot but some of this seems excessive. Seems to a lot of measuring on the front end, and very little measuring after the shot is fired. Whats the corelation between neck size runout and down range group size, or fliers at 1k?

 

[Jordanwickham]

I’m not the best shot but some of this seems excessive. Seems to a lot of measuring on the front end, and very little measuring after the shot is fired. Whats the corelation between neck size runout and down range group size, or fliers at 1k?

From what I've found not much unless you are talking excessive run-out, 7k plus. Im pretty much just giving possible solutions to the issue. I had the same issue but continued shooting while somewhat passively trying to sort it out. But I was also hovering fairly close to 7k run-out on some ammo which I'm not really willing to accept. <4k I wouldn't really care but when I'm seeing up around 6k I start to get concerned since there's an evident issue somewhere in my reloading process

 

[E-Tool]

This may not be very scientific, especially since imo reloading is more controlled than most factory ammo. Has anyone tried to pull loaded factory ammo to test concentricity? what is the industry standard? vs what is our standard? zero variation being ideal, but we’re in the real world here.

 

[308pirate]

I understand and agree. But if I somewhat consistently shoot 1/2 moa groups with one load and 1/3 groups with another I want to know why.

You're never going to find out why. Too many variables beyond your control.

In any case, it's a fallacy to think you can have all loads providing the same accuracy in a given rifle.

You said you saw dispersion at 600 yards that you didn't see at 100/200. How much of it was vertical? How much horizontal dispersion was due to wind and how much to the normal cause variation in ammo?

Unless you're reloading for benchrest, I fail to see any point to this.

 

[47guy]

Yep, Eric Cortana sure seems to take something of a minimalist approach.

are you a bench rest shooter?

ive said this so many times i feel like a parrot ever time i say it again but here we go.....

ive done every case/bullet/primer prep you can think of....ive shot out barrels testing all of this...a little over 18mons...i could type a 2 page post on all of this but i hate typing.
so like i said above ive done my home work...so much so that i stopped shooting for a few months because i hated reloading because of all the prep work involved when i was in full on OCD retard mode.....and i still do not like reloading so ive looked for EVER WAY POSSIBLE to cut my time at the reloading bench and long story short heres where im at now.

pics are not in order so bare with me here.....THESE ARE ALL LOADED DIRECTLY OFF A DILLON 550...

this is my 6BRA 109 hybrid .070 off the lands at 600yds

same day at 850yds

again loaded straight off a dillon 550

same day all 26 rounds shot over the chrony...round #1 is the one left of the 100yd group...cold clean to metal barrel

same day 10 rounds at 100yds

 

[Dthomas3523]

I agree at 100/200 yds but when I get out to 600 I see some dispersion.

I highly doubt it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Maybe. But if the neck exerts uneven pressure at different points on the bullet wouldn’t that unevenness continue as the neck expands until it no longer contacts the bullet. If so might that not still affect the projectile as it enters the barrel. I don’t know-just asking. What runout did you create and what was you group size?

You’re speaking in “Mights” when plenty of us have tested this to death.

 

[918v]

I size the case body with a Redding body die. Then I size the neck with a Lee collet neck die. I chamfer the case mouth with a VLD tool. I dip the case neck into Imperial graphite. I get .001” runout on my loaded rounds. So does everyone using this process. It’s so predictable you don’t have to check concentricity any longer.

 

[E-Tool]

You just let them drop into the tray like that? well there’s your problem ... a loading block will keep them pills straight.

 

[47guy]

You just let them drop into the tray like that? well there’s your problem ... a loading block will keep them pills straight.

yes...and it just goes to prove even more so just how much of this stuff ppl obsess over does not matter....if your doing ALLLL of this brass prep and weight sorting bullets and primers..obsessing over a kernel of powder..shooting over .1g increments of powder to find a load IMHO your wasting time and barrel life...a change in atmospherics will through your load outta wack if your running that tight.

like i said above the pics i posted are a 6BRA loaded straight off a dillon 550C...primed..charged with varget from the dillon powder drop..seated all on the dillon and dumped into the tray...i get if ppl just like tweaking/reloading...i dont...i like shooting hate reloading.

 

[Dthomas3523]

yes...and it just goes to prove even more so just how much of this stuff ppl obsess over does not matter....if your doing ALLLL of this brass prep and weight sorting bullets and primers..obsessing over a kernel of powder..shooting over .1g increments of powder to find a load IMHO your wasting time and barrel life...a change in atmospherics will through your load outta wack if your running that tight.

like i said above the pics i posted are a 6BRA loaded straight off a dillon 550C...primed..charged with varget from the dillon powder drop..seated all on the dillon and dumped into the tray...i get if ppl just like tweaking/reloading...i dont...i like shooting hate reloading.

To be fair, if done properly, you should have a powder node that’s at least a few tenths wide that will cover for environmental changes. At least in theory.

 

[47guy]

To be fair, if done properly, you should have a powder node that’s at least a few tenths wide that will cover for environmental changes. At least in theory.

agree 100%...but i like to see at least a .5g spread...so minimum .2g + or - with .3g being better...on either side of my target charge weight.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

are you a bench rest shooter?

ive said this so many times i feel like a parrot ever time i say it again but here we go.....

ive done every case/bullet/primer prep you can think of....ive shot out barrels testing all of this...a little over 18mons...i could type a 2 page post on all of this but i hate typing.
so like i said above ive done my home work...so much so that i stopped shooting for a few months because i hated reloading because of all the prep work involved when i was in full on OCD retard mode.....and i still do not like reloading so ive looked for EVER WAY POSSIBLE to cut my time at the reloading bench and long story short heres where im at now.

pics are not in order so bare with me here.....THESE ARE ALL LOADED DIRECTLY OFF A DILLON 550...

this is my 6BRA 109 hybrid .070 off the lands at 600yds
View attachment 7402514

same day at 850yds
View attachment 7402515

again loaded straight off a dillon 550
View attachment 7402517
same day all 26 rounds shot over the chrony...round #1 is the one left of the 100yd group...cold clean to metal barrel
View attachment 7402518

same day 10 rounds at 100yds
View attachment 7402516

This thread got a little weird. I don't know when the trend changed but controlling variables is fairly important. I understand you're making a concession to reduce time / increase volume but that shouldn't mean not controlling variables if you can. I suspect there will come a time looking back to now that we wonder why we (as a whole) were so flippant about quality control when we didn't have to be. I disagree with the "good enough" mentality when the game is "continual improvement". Does an extra .002" of runout at the ogive matter on a 500 yard target? Probably not. Should you ignore the runout if you can eliminate it? No.

 

[47guy]

This thread got a little weird. I don't know when the trend changed but controlling variables is fairly important. I understand you're making a concession to reduce time / increase volume but that shouldn't mean not controlling variables if you can. I suspect there will come a time looking back to now that we wonder why we (as a whole) were so flippant about quality control when we didn't have to be. I disagree with the "good enough" mentality when the game is "continual improvement". Does an extra .002" of runout at the ogive matter on a 500 yard target? Probably not. Should you ignore the runout if you can eliminate it? No.

well from the pics i posted controlling variables is not as import as you seem to think...as far as run out goes ive purposely induced run out in and shot side by side with ammo that had less than .001 and there was no difference until about .007 at with point you have to ask yourself was it me or some other variable.

as i said i chased all of this for a long time and at the end of the day my ammo shoots better than i can for the types of shooting i do...now if i was shooting bench rest my thoughts would be a little different...but not by much.

 

[Jordanwickham]

well from the pics i posted controlling variables is not as import as you seem to think...as far as run out goes ive purposely induced run out in and shot side by side with ammo that had less than .001 and there was no difference until about .007 at with point you have to ask yourself was it me or some other variable.

as i said i chased all of this for a long time and at the end of the day my ammo shoots better than i can for the types of shooting i do now if i was shooting bench rest my thoughts would be a little different...but not by much.

Unless that's like a 100 yard Benchrest target that group is right at 1 MOA correct?

 

[47guy]

Unless that's like a 100 yard Benchrest target that group is right at 1 MOA correct?

yes pretty close...the dots are 3/4"...no excuses but keep in mind that 10 round group started from a clean barrel...you take out the first 2 rounds and that group is pretty respectable by most standards.

 

[Jordanwickham]

yes pretty close...the dots are 3/4"...no excuses but keep in mind that 10 round group started from a clean barrel...you take out the first 2 rounds and that group is pretty respectable by most standards.

Got cha. I mean for me the group is pretty good. For PRS the group is pretty good. For some a nearly 1 MOA 100 yard group in a final load means the barrel goes in the scrap bin.
Now some people have a distorted expectation but some shoot matches where a 1 MOA is dead last by a wide margin.

 

[47guy]

Got cha. I mean for me the group is pretty good. For PRS the group is pretty good. For some a nearly 1 MOA 100 yard group in a final load means the barrel goes in the scrap bin.
Now some people have a distorted expectation but some shoot matches where a 1 MOA is dead last by a wide margin.

i shoot a match that a 1/2moa gun will have a hard time winning and trust me this gun will shoot in the .3s just weighing the charges on the FX...if this group started with a fouled barrel the left and right would not be there.

 

[47guy]

Got cha. I mean for me the group is pretty good. For PRS the group is pretty good. For some a nearly 1 MOA 100 yard group in a final load means the barrel goes in the scrap bin.
Now some people have a distorted expectation but some shoot matches where a 1 MOA is dead last by a wide margin.

this is the same gun...charges on the FX...it shoots pretty good

 

[Ruger15151]

l was frustrated by the same issue, I was sizing with a Redding FL Bushing Die on a Redding T-7 press. Should be a pretty good setup...right?

My fire formed brass had .0005-.001 neck run-out and after sizing, 003-.004. It drove me crazy...I removed the retained clip on the shell holder so that it would float. I put an o-ring under the lock ring and bushing plug so they could self-align with the case. I even spun the case 180 degrees and re-sized it. Nothing really improved the run-out.

Then, I called Redding who's tech said that .004 run-out was great! He has seen as much as .010 and it still shot great! So...why didn't I just buy a LEE press and Lee dies and call it a day if I couldn't expect more precision from Redding. The 3rd call finally indentified the issue. Redding bushing dies were designed to reduce the necks only .003-.004, any more in one step will cause run-out. I was having to size my necks down about .012. I even tried sizing in steps with progressively smaller bushings and this really didn't improve much.

The solution.... I bought a Forster FL sizing die and for $26 had them hone the neck to the diameter I wanted. I run different neck tension with different rifles so I had the neck honed to .004 smaller than my loaded rounds. That way I could use different size expander mandrels to set the desired neck tension. However, if you only load with one brand of brass and to one neck tension, you could have it honed to that exact final diameter and wouldn't even need an expander.

I now get .0002-.0010 neck run-out over 100 sized cases.

Hope this helps you