What are the best rules of thumb?

[mluha]

I was looking at my DOPE chart for M14 308 and noticed, that the lead in MIL-s for a moving target is more-or-less the speed of the target divided by 3, if the speed is measured in km/h. If the speed is measured in mph, then the lead in MIL-s is the speed divided by 2.
So if I would estimated the speed of moving target in mph:
Lead (in MIL) = speed of the target (in mpg) / 2.

Slow walk is 2.5 mph and the lead would be 2.5 / 2 = 1.25 MIL, which is on spot in my DOPE card for 250 yards. The good thing taking lead in MILs is that it easy to use and also it does not change a lot with range. According to my DOPE card at 400 yards the lead would be 1.42 MILs, at 300 yards 1.32 MILs, at 200 yards 1.19 MILs and at 100 yards 1.05 MIL. So I can use speed / 2 throughout the practical range of moving targets.

For most common target speeds and real-life scenarios the rule of thumb for 308 would be as follows:
Patrol: 0.75 MIL lead
Walk: 1.5 MIL lead
Run: 3 MIL lead
Sprint: 6 MIL lead

Does this works for you also?

Are there other useful rules of thumb out there that y'all use?

 

[Dthomas3523]

For moving targets in the real world, you typically only get a shot or two. Then the target is either gone or has changed speed.

So, whatever your intended prey is, get the average speed at walk, jog/trot, and running.

Do the math/use a calculator to figure out the holds for the distances you plan to engage. Then use those holds appropriately.

You won’t be doing any math in the field. So just use a ballistic calculator to get the holds and put them in your data.

 

[mluha]

You won’t be doing any math in the field.

Might be true, but then again - some math might be quicker compared to this:

Aiming heights with colors: green = 200m, blue = 300, red = 400m.
Leads for moving targets: P = patrol, W = walk, R = run, S = sprint.
Maybe 4 numbers would be easier to memorize?
Patrol: 0.75 MIL lead
Walk: 1.5 MIL lead
Run: 3 MIL lead
Sprint: 6 MIL lead

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Unless you are over watching a street in Fallujah, you will likely not be shooting at anything running or sprinting anyway.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Might be true, but then again - some math might be quicker compared to this:
View attachment 7323004
Aiming heights with colors: green = 200m, blue = 300, red = 400m.
Leads for moving targets: P = patrol, W = walk, R = run, S = sprint.
Maybe 4 numbers would be easier to memorize?
Patrol: 0.75 MIL lead
Walk: 1.5 MIL lead
Run: 3 MIL lead
Sprint: 6 MIL lead

I don’t even know what that is or why it’s posted. You’re making this complicated.

 

[mluha]

I agree: the picture is complicated. The point I was hoping to rise is that lead for 308 in my DOPE card is neatly speed in km/h / 3. This is something I can use without using calculator, charts or ballistics computer.
I tried to visualize similar information for Holosun Red-Dot for 5,56 NATO ammo - the sight is zeroed at 200m:

 

[Dthomas3523]

I agree: the picture is complicated. The point I was hoping to rise is that lead for 308 in my DOPE card is neatly speed in km/h / 3. This is something I can use without using calculator, charts or ballistics computer.
I tried to visualize similar information for Holosun Red-Dot for 5,56 NATO ammo - the sight is zeroed at 200m:
View attachment 7323184

Again, you just keep the info in your data book. Mostly you need it committed to memory as these shots come up instantly.

Do the math at home for your intended target. Write it down and commit to memory. Done.

Nothing else needed.

 

[spife7980]

My rule of thumb on something moving?
Hold a 1.5 mils and

 

[Dthomas3523]

My rule of thumb on something moving?
Hold a 1.5 mils and

And honestly, that’s how it goes. You memorize a couple standard holds, take your best guess which speed they are moving (not too many broad shots, so angles plays a part too), pick the hold and let it go.

They/it either goes down, or they are behind cover or moving differently after that.

 

[blbennett1288]

0.5mils x mph = lead

 

[Dta1]

Question— hopefully not a dumb one. I‘ve shot at plenty of moving targets with a shotgun but never a rifle. Are these leads static or are you tracking at speed with the target while firing? Follow through?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Question— hopefully not a dumb one. I‘ve shot at plenty of moving targets with a shotgun but never a rifle. Are these leads static or are you tracking at speed with the target while firing? Follow through?

There’s three common ways:

(Tracking) Moving with the target with lead, pull trigger and continue moving (follow through)

(Ambush) Holding ahead at a static position and pulling trigger when it breaks the hold mark. Not tracking/following after.

(Track-bush) moving with the target, then jumping ahead to a static hold and firing when it breaks that point. No following, static shot, but you start tracking to move ahead as soon as your fundamental follow through is over.

I personally use the track-bush method.

 

[mluha]

I agree: the picture is complicated. The point I was hoping to rise is that lead for 308 in my DOPE card is neatly speed in km/h / 3. This is something I can use without using calculator, charts or ballistics computer.
I tried to visualize similar information for Holosun Red-Dot for 5,56 NATO ammo - the sight is zeroed at 200m:

 

[Secant]

**I don’t shoot movers**

It seems to me like there would be way too much to memorize (multiple speeds, multiple distances, multiple angles of movement relative to shooter, etc). I would think you could memorize Time of Flight, measure movement in mils per second with reticle, and perform basic multiplication. What am I missing here?

 

[Dthomas3523]

**I don’t shoot movers**

It seems to me like there would be way too much to memorize (multiple speeds, multiple distances, multiple angles of movement relative to shooter, etc). I would think you could memorize Time of Flight, measure movement in mils per second with reticle, and perform basic multiplication. What am I missing here?

You literally just memorize holds for the real world. Only a few of them. Then you make your best guess as to which hold to use. Extremely simple.

In the real world, moving targets happen instantly and you have to make a decision while on the gun. If you don’t already have holds remembered, you won’t have time to do anything extra.

At matches, it’s different and simple. Take your stopwatch on phone or count 1/1000 2/1000 3/1000 etc etc for the amount of time the mover takes to move 10mils. Divide 10 by the number of seconds. Then multiply it by the time of flight your software gives for that distance. That’s your lead. Easy and done.

 

[Jscb1b]

Keep your thumb out of your m1 garand.

 

[acudaowner]

Don't play with that or you will go blind .
more than 3 shakes and your jerking off
no you can't sell your sister to that guy down the street no matter how much he is offering you .
no you can't marry your first cousin and stop touching her its just not right ...
what ever messed up situation you got your self into you totally deserved it .
you are not allowed to send your baby brother off in the woods all by himself to find you a pot of gold under a rainbow that will magically appear on Monday at 9am in the middle of the interstate highway .
you will get grounded when you convince your brother that he could indeed fly if he jumped off the roof and no well he was stupid enough to try it is not a valid excuse .
when your best friend stabs you in the arm with his new knife he was not allowed to buy just because some magician did it and it did not appear to hurt it will indeed hurt a lot but only 1/2 as much as the ass whipping your father will give you for being so dam stupid .

 

[Kadams1563]

Best rule of thumb. Don’t beat your woman with a stuck wider then your thumb. Hence the name rule of thumb.

 

[FatBoy]

For gaming, shooting tiny movers, etc all this may be relevant but shooting a fast walker half sized e type inside 400m with an AR is stupid easy.

Back in 2003 - 2004 a few of us CMP shooters went to Ft. Campbell to train with some of 3rd Bde and their support on range 16 before they fucked it all up. Guys had zero confidence in their gear or ammo until we laid down and shot it. A half sized silhouette on a stick held above the berm at a standard walk or fast walk, hold lead edge and pull the trigger. Within 30 minutes most of the soldiers were hitting 80% with M68s and 62gr ammo at 400m and in. This was prone unsupported. Weapon system is capable if the shooter can break a shot. Fuck the math unless you're trying to make a glory shot. Get closer or reposition so the movement is in your favor.

 

[mluha]

shooting a fast walker half sized e type inside 400m with an AR is stupid easy.

This is not long range, but for AR or similar 5.56x45mm ammo and HoloSun red-dot this would be the rule of thumb:

Should be good up to 200m (and is not needed beyond that range anyway).

 

[mluha]

Another rule I see for 308 is that the wind correction is about half of the find speed in m/s:

Correction for wind (in MILs) = wind speed (in m/s) / 2.
Works more-or-less OK with my DOPE card data from 100-500m range (and is not needed for longer range anyway).

 

[Dthomas3523]

Another rule I see for 308 is that the wind correction is about half of the find speed in m/s:

Correction for wind (in MILs) = wind speed (in m/s) / 2.
Works more-or-less OK with my DOPE card data from 100-500m range (and is not needed for longer range anyway).

We already have mil based rules for wind where almost no math is needed.

 

[mluha]

We already have mil based rules for wind where almost no math is needed.

That's the idea of my post: where could I find more information on the MIL based rules for wind?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

That's the idea of my post: where could I find more information on the MIL based rules for wind?

The old school way of doing it is to know your bullet flight in seconds to different yardages...

You practice developing your "fast count". This is simply how far you can count in 1 second.... 1,2,3,4,5.

If your bullet for instance, takes 0.5 seconds to get to 500 yards, you observe your target and count 1,2,3. However far your target moved in that time is your hold. Alternatively...fast count the whole second, no matter the yardage, and adjust the result for actual distance.

This is the way.

 

[acudaowner]

but does that still work as well , further out as the bullet slows down more and more ?

 

[Steel head]

We already have mil based rules for wind where almost no math is needed.

It’s seriously made wind holds a lot easier.

 

[Dunraven]

0.5mils x mph = lead

I believe this was determined for the 6.5 CM, but it is a very useful starting point.

 

[Dunraven]

You literally just memorize holds for the real world. Only a few of them. Then you make your best guess as to which hold to use. Extremely simple.

In the real world, moving targets happen instantly and you have to make a decision while on the gun. If you don’t already have holds remembered, you won’t have time to do anything extra.

At matches, it’s different and simple. Take your stopwatch on phone or count 1/1000 2/1000 3/1000 etc etc for the amount of time the mover takes to move 10mils. Divide 10 by the number of seconds. Then multiply it by the time of flight your software gives for that distance. That’s your lead. Easy and done.

Or, you could look in your kestrel..

 

[Dthomas3523]

Or, you could look in your kestrel..

........look at your kestrel when you’re on the rifle and something takes off running in front of you?? Good luck

 

[Dthomas3523]

And your kestrel does no good if you don’t know the target speed. You’ve got to do the math anyway. I’ve never been given a target speed for a mover at a match.

The difference between 2 and 2.5mph is .3 on most 6mm. So burning the first shot or two picking one or holding in between is wasted points when you can do the simple math above.

 

[Jack Master]

The "sheriff of bagdad" says if you are inside 400yds lead a man by how far thier hands swings in front of them. Walking = little. Jogging = some. Running = a lot. They show you the lead.

 

[Seymour Fish]

I was looking at my DOPE chart for M14 308 and noticed, that the lead in MIL-s for a moving target is more-or-less the speed of the target divided by 3, if the speed is measured in km/h. If the speed is measured in mph, then the lead in MIL-s is the speed divided by 2.
So if I would estimated the speed of moving target in mph:
Lead (in MIL) = speed of the target (in mpg) / 2.

Slow walk is 2.5 mph and the lead would be 2.5 / 2 = 1.25 MIL, which is on spot in my DOPE card for 250 yards. The good thing taking lead in MILs is that it easy to use and also it does not change a lot with range. According to my DOPE card at 400 yards the lead would be 1.42 MILs, at 300 yards 1.32 MILs, at 200 yards 1.19 MILs and at 100 yards 1.05 MIL. So I can use speed / 2 throughout the practical range of moving targets.

For most common target speeds and real-life scenarios the rule of thumb for 308 would be as follows:
Patrol: 0.75 MIL lead
Walk: 1.5 MIL lead
Run: 3 MIL lead
Sprint: 6 MIL lead

Does this works for you also?

Are there other useful rules of thumb out there that y'all use?

Mliha, Position comes into it. Example: from offhand position, it is difficult to force the eye to use anything other than the center of the FOV thus the center of the reticle, which requires swinging through like shotgunning and perhaps seeing some daylight. None of this “surprise break” trigger business as you must know exactly when it will break. This is the opposite of prone bipod/rear bag which has been covered above, and very nicely.