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What can competitive shooters and snipers learn from each other?

ANGLICOMarine

Retired Marine
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 11, 2008
205
10
Atlanta, Georgia
Good article from 2000 explaining the idea that traditional competitive shooters and snipers/tactical shooters have something to learn from each other and that the disciplines compliment each other. I didn't write it but, think it's an interesting read especially as "precision rifle" competitions are gaining steam. Still relevant?

I hope this is in the correct section, it seemed to fit here best...

http://armarksman.files.wordpress.com/20...ing-sniping.pdf



A Sniper’s Confession: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping
By Kent Gooch, CWO2, USMC (ret)
Originally printed in Tactical Shooter magazine, April 2000

Well before I became a sniper and sniper instructor – nearly 20 years ago -- there has been a rivalry, approaching an adversarial relationship, between the sniper community and High Power, NRA-type shooters in the military. I saw it when I was a Marine stationed at the USMC Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) in Quantico, Virginia in the 80’s and also at the National Guard Bureau MTU in Little Rock, Arkansas in the late 90’s. Often the rivalry was limited to good-humored ribbing; still a good portion of it was serious and said with malicious intent. Often, the banter turned into fisticuffs, with the resulting bad blood between the two communities. This is unfortunate, to say the least.
How many times have you heard these phrases uttered, "I don't care what those paper punchers do, this is sniping and it's an entirely different game!" Who needs to learn how to use a sling? That’s for those yellow glass shooters!" Or from team shooter "Hey sniper! When are you going to learn how to shoot?" and "I'm telling you it's easier to take a National Match Shooter and teach him infantry skills than it is to take a grunt and try to teach him how to shoot!" I have heard these and a lot more, and being familiar with both sides of the rivalry I have come to some conclusions. What I will do here is attempt to show, through my own experiences and historical examples, the importance of competitive shooting events to snipers and how the two shooting disciplines’ interrelate.
There used to be a sign in the classroom of the 3rd Marine Division Scout-Sniper School in Okinawa. It has been awhile, but I remember that it stated that a sniper was a hybrid of a poacher and a competitive shooter. At the time in 1980, the sign really didn't register; it was simply a phrase intended to motivate the students. I was a high expert M16 shooter and that, plus this sniper training I was about to undergo, was going to make me a steely-eyed killer. I graduated, kept training, shot the M16 annually, went on to graduate from the Quantico instructor course, and figured that I was one bad Marine who didn’t need any training in other rifle disciplines. I never really paid much attention to the USMC Competition in Arms program, which holds Division level competitions and culminates in the Marine Corps matches and results in the selection of that year’s "All Marine Corps" teams. I saw the funny looking leg medals and kinda wondered what those distinguished shooters badges were about.
Once I got stationed at the USMC MTU I cohabited with the Marine Corps shooting teams. I made a few friends on the teams and started getting curious about this "competitive shooting" thing. I started talking to the team shooters and some of the more senior ones even taught me some tricks. Unfortunately, during the eight years I was stationed at the MTU, I only shot one rifle match, the 1000-yard stage of the Virginia State Championships. I wanted to see what the deal was. It was a good experience, and it wetted my appetite for later down the road.
In 1989, I was promoted to Warrant Officer and made a Range Officer. USMC Range Officers supervise marksmanship training and are responsible for the training and management of small shooting teams throughout the Corps. Many of the top enlisted rifle and pistol shooters are put into this military occupational specialty. I was selected due to my training background and was expected to get up to speed on the competitive aspects of the USMC marksmanship program. So at my first duty station I was appointed to be team captain of the shooting team at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, CA. Mare Island is the original location of the West Coast Boot Camp and had a tradition of fine shooting teams back to the early 1900's. I was lucky to work with a Staff Sergeant who was an experienced competitive shooter and despite my best efforts to mess things up we put together a team, trained and went to shoot the 1st Marine Division matches in Camp Pendleton.
How did I – one bad sniper – do? You could say that in his first attempt at NRA style Service Rifle shooting this old sniper didn't do so well. In fact, I ended up about halfway down out of about 200 shooters. To understand why I did so poorly, you have to understand what I, a "tactical" shooter, thought about marksmanship and competition:
1. I thought I knew what precision marksmanship was about.
2. I thought I knew how to read wind.
3. I thought I knew what precision shooting under pressure was like.
I was wrong. On all three counts.
While I had a good idea of what was going on, I was only at about a sophomoric level, learned yet stupid. Most of the mistakes I made that first year were mental errors, not physical. I knew shooting positions, I knew wind formulas, and I knew how to press a trigger. The problem was in the application of these aspects, which had kept me at a mediocre level of competitive shooting. Let me explain.
Precision Marksmanship. When training snipers, many times instructors espouse the idea of precision being that as long as the students keep the bullet in the chest they are doing well. In competitive shooting, matches are won and lost in the X-ring. This elusive little sucker can ruin your day if you don't think center instead of a hit in the middle somewhere. What competitive shooting does is develop the mindset during training that if your weapons system is capable of holding .5 minute of angle (MOA), then you should be getting .5 MOA out of it when firing from the shoulder. I found as well that competitive shooting shows you the difference between a good position and a correct position. Not only that but it also shows you that through proper trigger control, position and mental management a shooter can regularly hit a man-sized target from the standing unsupported position at 200 yards and prone at the 600 yardline with iron sights and no support other than a correct position and a little leather strap.
Reading wind. As a sniper you learn how to read wind for your partner. You glue your eye into the scope and casually take a guess at the mirage, grass blowing, whatever. As the shot fires you watch the trace and impact and make required corrections. In competitive shooting you are your own wind caller. You must get the wind right or that little X-ring will elude you enough to put you right out of the competition. On rapid-fire strings you have to be fast, sure and accurate. You have to learn to watch flags, mirage, grass and any other indicators you can find. And when you make a mistake, it's your butt, your embarrassment, and your miss at 3 or 9 o'clock. The ultimate test of this, in my mind, is the 1000 yard match (relax you benchresters). It's in these matches where you are on the line with your peers playing a mental game. Here the X-ring is 10 inches and only the best will nail the sucker on a regular basis while reading their own wind.

Pressure. There are few stressors as evil as competition. When shooting a qualification course you may feel a little stress, when you are shooting for high shooter in a school you may feel even more. But show up to a firing line full of strangers, some of who look like they really know what they are doing. They have high speed looking guns and bright shiny reloads and their shooting jackets have patches from hell all over them. Each shot is spotted and scored and as your points accumulate the stress can start. Each firing line it gets worse and worse, unless you learn to handle it. That is when you will have to learn to deal with stress.
My experiences with High Power shooting impressed upon me the importance of NRA-style competition for a tactical shooter. That does not mean that I believe a High Power shooter in the tactical arena, when compared with the tactical shooter in the High Power arena, will outperform the tactical shooter. Quite the contrary. The proficient tactical shooter should be able to make that X-ring-accurate shot with monotonous regularity, but against live, moving targets whose comrades will shoot back upon successful interdiction. And this does not include the terribly strenuous infiltration and exfiltration necessary for a successful sniper engagement. In short, competitive shooting does not encompass the "poaching" skills referred to on the sign in Okinawa. What I mean is that the proficient sniper can, and should, learn from the High Power shooter, if he is to be a better sniper. This is important, for there is no second place in the sniper’s arena. Only death.
Since I left the USMC I began shooting in the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships in Ottawa, Canada. These matches are open to civilians through the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (www.dcra.ca) which is the Canadian equivalent of the NRA. CFSAC is an excellent example of how bulls-eye competition can be crossbred with combat style skills. Competitors in service rifle/pistol, sniper rifle and light machinegun categories are required to apply precision marksmanship skills in combat oriented courses of fire at extended ranges while under conditions of physical and mental stress. My favorite is the 300m "Agony Snaps". In this match you are assigned a sector of fire in which a "Hun head" sniper target is presented randomly for engagement. The hard part of this is that you don’t know when or where the target will appear only that you will have ten, 3-second exposures in around 10 minutes, plus you have about a 4 inch 5 ring you are hunting. Just when you close your eyes to relax, sure as hell, there it is. The US National Guard runs a similar competition (American Forces Skill at Arms Meeting) in Little Rock, Arkansas annually, however it is not open to civilians.
CFSAC has given me the opportunity to compete against international level shooters and has allowed me to see other countries weapons systems and operational techniques. The firing positions used by Canadian Forces service rifle shooters are a good example of things that can be learned by attending these competitions. These positions, which violate just about every rule in the NRA High Power manual, are very interesting and are worth an article by themselves.
Another type of international competition worth mentioning are the Super Sniper Shootouts put on by Autauqa Arms. These matches draw competitors from all over the world and are a sure way of testing yourself against the best the world has to offer.
Though my own experiences impressed upon me the importance of competitive shooting to sniping, a review of the history of military marksmanship would have led me to the same conclusion. Let’s look at the military side of the question, which, if we are honest, keeps a good portion of the US competitive rifle-shooting program going. I'll focus on the USMC as it is the most active of the services, and I know it well.
The USMC did not have a competitive program prior to 1900. In a letter he wrote to he NRA in 1943, Lt. Gen. Thomas Holcomb, Commandant of the Marine Corps during W.W.II, and a Distinguished Rifle shooter, said the following:
I was introduced to the N.R.A. in 1901. It was a rude introduction because our team was soundly trounced, finishing sixth in both the Hilton Trophy Match and Interstate Team Match- events, which the following year, were combined into the National Rifle Team Match. Naturally, we did not relish such a poor showing so we set out to learn how to shoot. By 1910 the Inspector of Small Arms Practice, U.S.M.C., reported proudly that "over one-third of the men in the Marine Corps are now qualified as marksmen, sharpshooters or expert riflemen!" How many of the present generation of officers realize that in those days the Army, Navy and Marine Corps were actually learning how to shoot from the civilians and civilian-soldiers who formed the backbone of the National Rifle Association? In 1911 the Marines won their first National Rifle Team Match, and by 1917 we had progressed so far along the marksmanship trail that every Marine who sailed overseas was a trained marksman.
General Holcomb and his men were not the only Marines lacking in sufficient rifle technique at the turn of the century. In the Sept 1971 MARINE CORPS GAZETTE, USMC shooting legend LtCol. W.W. McMillan wrote, "In 1899, Commandant Heywood was appalled to learn that less than a hundred Marines, officers and men, could not meet qualification requirements with the then current Krag Jorgenson rifle. By direction of Major C.H. Lauchheimer, the Corps proceeded to take shooting seriously, both for combat purposes and competition. Marksmanship became a highly prized skill and valued adjunct to leadership."
Prior to World War I, Marines like Calvin A. Lloyd, D.C. McDougal and then-2ndLt Thomas Holcomb advanced the respectability of match shooting, while pioneering instructional techniques and training methods for a far flung expeditionary Corps. In 1906 Marines began getting the M1903 Springfield rifle. Those who could shoot expert with it were rewarded with marksmanship qualification pay of $3.00 per month.
The focus on rifle competition within the Corps reaped dividends in the coming years in Mexico, Cuba, Haiti and in the wheatfields of France. One of the better descriptions of the effects of improved marksmanship through competition is by CPT John Thomason, Jr. in his W.W.I USMC classic "FIX BAYONETS." "The Bosche wanted Hill 142; he came and the rifles broke him and he came again. All his artillery was in action and his machineguns scoured the place, but he could not make headway against the rifles. Guns he could understand; he knew all about bombs and auto-rifles and machine-guns and trench mortars, but aimed sustained rifle fire that comes from nowhere in particular and picks men off- it brought the war home to the individual and demoralized him". And "Already around Hautevesnes there had been a brush with advancing Germans, and the Germans were given a new experience: rifle fire that begins to kill at 800 yards; they found it very interesting!"
One need not take my word for it, or even the historical experiences of the USMC, to appreciate the importance of marksmanship competition to sniping, one need only looked at the life and experiences of Gunny Hathcock, himself a top-ranked competitive shooter and a very successful sniper. Through competition -- whether High Power, under the auspices of the NRA, or the Super Sniper Shootout – you can hone your skills and become the shooter that the bad guys have to worry about.
 
Great read! Thanks for the post.

My basic analogy to compare them would be: If the competitive shooter is the Samurai, the sniper would be the ninja.

A military sniper would have to master EVERYTHING a competitive shooter knows, and that is only approximately 40% of his specialty. Most of the time, the sniper is not shooting, but locating his target, setting up his vantage point and finding the opportunity to make the perfect shot. He is also, at the same time, using fieldcraft and concealment techniques to avoid being taken out / captured etc.

A military sniper is a perfect hybrid of the competition shooter and the hunter, with both of these traits reinforced and cemented with military discipline and education. It is just like how potassium nitrate binds sulfur and charcoal together to form black gunpowder.
 
I was a sniper, and have been in a shooting competition, and gearing up for another. I think that the military community has more to learn from the civilian community than vice versa. We've seen this play out since 9/11, as elite and semi-elite military communities have taken best practices from civilian hobbyists.

What people have to remember is that the military guy has to be a jack of multiple trades, but cannot afford to really master any. A few examples:

*Sniper needs to hit minute of man... competition shooter has to hit X-ring, as the article mentions.
*Sniper might need to be able to climb into a position. The civvy rock climber is way better.
*Sniper needs endurance, but the marathon runner eats his lunch.
*Sniper needs to know some ballistics and firearms knowledge, but the engineer or gunsmith is better.
* Sniper must be stealthy, but a dedicated bow hunter probably has the edge there.
 
Very few people can master more than 1-2 items of specialty in their lifetimes, sadly. Yes, both the mil and comp shooting communities can benefit each other. They’ve already made adjustments as such to some degree, since the early 2000’s. Good read.
 
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I think that the military community has more to learn from the civilian community

Interestingly enough, it was the US Army's participation in long range accuracy shooting and seeing how civilian shooters perform that led to the US Dept. Of Ordnance to study the principles of marksmanship as a hard science.

The year 1872 marks the US military's initial entry into the world of extreme long range shooting, a sport dominated by civilian teams from both the US and UK since 1868. The Army's emissaries into the field carried the government issue .50-90 caliber Trapdoor. Built from the Erskine Allin conversion of surplus obsolete .58 caliber Springfield rifled muskets, the .50-90 was a very capable and hard hitting rifle. However, during the Creedmoor matches of both 1872 and 1873, the US Army lost the 800, 900 and 1000 yard events to the visiting civilian team from Ireland, who were still using the .45 caliber Gibbs muzzleloading rifle with a very heavy bull barrel.

Right after the 1872 loss, the Army began to revamp it's marksmanship program, forming rifle "clubs" in it's ranks in the same pattern of the organizations that the US civilian competitors had formed.

The efforts of the Army to adapt and modernize it's long range shooting program paid off in the Creedmoor match of 1874. Once again, the US military faced off against civilian shooters from Ireland and Great Britain, and this time, Colonel John Bodine of the Army took the 900 and final 1000 yard championship titles, using a particular type of rifle that STILL bears his name today and would be used by military forces worldwide for the next 20 years until the advent of bolt action repeaters and smokeless cartridges.

Five years after this historic victory, in 1879, the US Dept. Of Ordnance would run a series of famous tests at the Sandy Hook Proving Ground in New Jersey. Rifles used by both the US Army and commercial buffalo hunters, predominantly the newly built 1873 Trapdoors, 1874 Sharps and 1875 Remington Rolling Blocks were put side by side with samples of other long range guns used by foreign military forces, such as the British Martini-Henry and Snider breechloaders. They were then fired, from both bench rest and prone positions, at incremental ranges starting from 300 yards all the way to 2000 yards. The men who operated these rifles were civilian engineers from Springfield Armory. It was during these tests that the .45-70 cartridge was discovered to be able to inflict an accurate and fatal wound all the way to 2250 yards. All of the Sandy Hook tests were carried out with IRON SIGHTS.

Harper's Weekly front piece commemorating the famous 1874 Creedmoor event:

Sports_Illustrated_40740_19540913-076-2048.jpg


The Remington rifle and shooting position used by the US military team during the historic match:

Remington-ad-showing-positions-of-famous-target-shooters-Army-and-Navy-Journal-June-5_Q320.jpg
 
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Good article from 2000 explaining the idea that traditional competitive shooters and snipers/tactical shooters have something to learn from each other and that the disciplines compliment each other. I didn't write it but, think it's an interesting read especially as "precision rifle" competitions are gaining steam. Still relevant?

I hope this is in the correct section, it seemed to fit here best...

http://armarksman.files.wordpress.com/20...ing-sniping.pdf



A Sniper’s Confession: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping
By Kent Gooch, CWO2, USMC (ret)
Originally printed in Tactical Shooter magazine, April 2000

Well before I became a sniper and sniper instructor – nearly 20 years ago -- there has been a rivalry, approaching an adversarial relationship, between the sniper community and High Power, NRA-type shooters in the military. I saw it when I was a Marine stationed at the USMC Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) in Quantico, Virginia in the 80’s and also at the National Guard Bureau MTU in Little Rock, Arkansas in the late 90’s. Often the rivalry was limited to good-humored ribbing; still a good portion of it was serious and said with malicious intent. Often, the banter turned into fisticuffs, with the resulting bad blood between the two communities. This is unfortunate, to say the least.
How many times have you heard these phrases uttered, "I don't care what those paper punchers do, this is sniping and it's an entirely different game!" Who needs to learn how to use a sling? That’s for those yellow glass shooters!" Or from team shooter "Hey sniper! When are you going to learn how to shoot?" and "I'm telling you it's easier to take a National Match Shooter and teach him infantry skills than it is to take a grunt and try to teach him how to shoot!" I have heard these and a lot more, and being familiar with both sides of the rivalry I have come to some conclusions. What I will do here is attempt to show, through my own experiences and historical examples, the importance of competitive shooting events to snipers and how the two shooting disciplines’ interrelate.
There used to be a sign in the classroom of the 3rd Marine Division Scout-Sniper School in Okinawa. It has been awhile, but I remember that it stated that a sniper was a hybrid of a poacher and a competitive shooter. At the time in 1980, the sign really didn't register; it was simply a phrase intended to motivate the students. I was a high expert M16 shooter and that, plus this sniper training I was about to undergo, was going to make me a steely-eyed killer. I graduated, kept training, shot the M16 annually, went on to graduate from the Quantico instructor course, and figured that I was one bad Marine who didn’t need any training in other rifle disciplines. I never really paid much attention to the USMC Competition in Arms program, which holds Division level competitions and culminates in the Marine Corps matches and results in the selection of that year’s "All Marine Corps" teams. I saw the funny looking leg medals and kinda wondered what those distinguished shooters badges were about.
Once I got stationed at the USMC MTU I cohabited with the Marine Corps shooting teams. I made a few friends on the teams and started getting curious about this "competitive shooting" thing. I started talking to the team shooters and some of the more senior ones even taught me some tricks. Unfortunately, during the eight years I was stationed at the MTU, I only shot one rifle match, the 1000-yard stage of the Virginia State Championships. I wanted to see what the deal was. It was a good experience, and it wetted my appetite for later down the road.
In 1989, I was promoted to Warrant Officer and made a Range Officer. USMC Range Officers supervise marksmanship training and are responsible for the training and management of small shooting teams throughout the Corps. Many of the top enlisted rifle and pistol shooters are put into this military occupational specialty. I was selected due to my training background and was expected to get up to speed on the competitive aspects of the USMC marksmanship program. So at my first duty station I was appointed to be team captain of the shooting team at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, CA. Mare Island is the original location of the West Coast Boot Camp and had a tradition of fine shooting teams back to the early 1900's. I was lucky to work with a Staff Sergeant who was an experienced competitive shooter and despite my best efforts to mess things up we put together a team, trained and went to shoot the 1st Marine Division matches in Camp Pendleton.
How did I – one bad sniper – do? You could say that in his first attempt at NRA style Service Rifle shooting this old sniper didn't do so well. In fact, I ended up about halfway down out of about 200 shooters. To understand why I did so poorly, you have to understand what I, a "tactical" shooter, thought about marksmanship and competition:
1. I thought I knew what precision marksmanship was about.
2. I thought I knew how to read wind.
3. I thought I knew what precision shooting under pressure was like.
I was wrong. On all three counts.
While I had a good idea of what was going on, I was only at about a sophomoric level, learned yet stupid. Most of the mistakes I made that first year were mental errors, not physical. I knew shooting positions, I knew wind formulas, and I knew how to press a trigger. The problem was in the application of these aspects, which had kept me at a mediocre level of competitive shooting. Let me explain.
Precision Marksmanship. When training snipers, many times instructors espouse the idea of precision being that as long as the students keep the bullet in the chest they are doing well. In competitive shooting, matches are won and lost in the X-ring. This elusive little sucker can ruin your day if you don't think center instead of a hit in the middle somewhere. What competitive shooting does is develop the mindset during training that if your weapons system is capable of holding .5 minute of angle (MOA), then you should be getting .5 MOA out of it when firing from the shoulder. I found as well that competitive shooting shows you the difference between a good position and a correct position. Not only that but it also shows you that through proper trigger control, position and mental management a shooter can regularly hit a man-sized target from the standing unsupported position at 200 yards and prone at the 600 yardline with iron sights and no support other than a correct position and a little leather strap.
Reading wind. As a sniper you learn how to read wind for your partner. You glue your eye into the scope and casually take a guess at the mirage, grass blowing, whatever. As the shot fires you watch the trace and impact and make required corrections. In competitive shooting you are your own wind caller. You must get the wind right or that little X-ring will elude you enough to put you right out of the competition. On rapid-fire strings you have to be fast, sure and accurate. You have to learn to watch flags, mirage, grass and any other indicators you can find. And when you make a mistake, it's your butt, your embarrassment, and your miss at 3 or 9 o'clock. The ultimate test of this, in my mind, is the 1000 yard match (relax you benchresters). It's in these matches where you are on the line with your peers playing a mental game. Here the X-ring is 10 inches and only the best will nail the sucker on a regular basis while reading their own wind.

Pressure. There are few stressors as evil as competition. When shooting a qualification course you may feel a little stress, when you are shooting for high shooter in a school you may feel even more. But show up to a firing line full of strangers, some of who look like they really know what they are doing. They have high speed looking guns and bright shiny reloads and their shooting jackets have patches from hell all over them. Each shot is spotted and scored and as your points accumulate the stress can start. Each firing line it gets worse and worse, unless you learn to handle it. That is when you will have to learn to deal with stress.
My experiences with High Power shooting impressed upon me the importance of NRA-style competition for a tactical shooter. That does not mean that I believe a High Power shooter in the tactical arena, when compared with the tactical shooter in the High Power arena, will outperform the tactical shooter. Quite the contrary. The proficient tactical shooter should be able to make that X-ring-accurate shot with monotonous regularity, but against live, moving targets whose comrades will shoot back upon successful interdiction. And this does not include the terribly strenuous infiltration and exfiltration necessary for a successful sniper engagement. In short, competitive shooting does not encompass the "poaching" skills referred to on the sign in Okinawa. What I mean is that the proficient sniper can, and should, learn from the High Power shooter, if he is to be a better sniper. This is important, for there is no second place in the sniper’s arena. Only death.
Since I left the USMC I began shooting in the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships in Ottawa, Canada. These matches are open to civilians through the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (www.dcra.ca) which is the Canadian equivalent of the NRA. CFSAC is an excellent example of how bulls-eye competition can be crossbred with combat style skills. Competitors in service rifle/pistol, sniper rifle and light machinegun categories are required to apply precision marksmanship skills in combat oriented courses of fire at extended ranges while under conditions of physical and mental stress. My favorite is the 300m "Agony Snaps". In this match you are assigned a sector of fire in which a "Hun head" sniper target is presented randomly for engagement. The hard part of this is that you don’t know when or where the target will appear only that you will have ten, 3-second exposures in around 10 minutes, plus you have about a 4 inch 5 ring you are hunting. Just when you close your eyes to relax, sure as hell, there it is. The US National Guard runs a similar competition (American Forces Skill at Arms Meeting) in Little Rock, Arkansas annually, however it is not open to civilians.
CFSAC has given me the opportunity to compete against international level shooters and has allowed me to see other countries weapons systems and operational techniques. The firing positions used by Canadian Forces service rifle shooters are a good example of things that can be learned by attending these competitions. These positions, which violate just about every rule in the NRA High Power manual, are very interesting and are worth an article by themselves.
Another type of international competition worth mentioning are the Super Sniper Shootouts put on by Autauqa Arms. These matches draw competitors from all over the world and are a sure way of testing yourself against the best the world has to offer.
Though my own experiences impressed upon me the importance of competitive shooting to sniping, a review of the history of military marksmanship would have led me to the same conclusion. Let’s look at the military side of the question, which, if we are honest, keeps a good portion of the US competitive rifle-shooting program going. I'll focus on the USMC as it is the most active of the services, and I know it well.
The USMC did not have a competitive program prior to 1900. In a letter he wrote to he NRA in 1943, Lt. Gen. Thomas Holcomb, Commandant of the Marine Corps during W.W.II, and a Distinguished Rifle shooter, said the following:
I was introduced to the N.R.A. in 1901. It was a rude introduction because our team was soundly trounced, finishing sixth in both the Hilton Trophy Match and Interstate Team Match- events, which the following year, were combined into the National Rifle Team Match. Naturally, we did not relish such a poor showing so we set out to learn how to shoot. By 1910 the Inspector of Small Arms Practice, U.S.M.C., reported proudly that "over one-third of the men in the Marine Corps are now qualified as marksmen, sharpshooters or expert riflemen!" How many of the present generation of officers realize that in those days the Army, Navy and Marine Corps were actually learning how to shoot from the civilians and civilian-soldiers who formed the backbone of the National Rifle Association? In 1911 the Marines won their first National Rifle Team Match, and by 1917 we had progressed so far along the marksmanship trail that every Marine who sailed overseas was a trained marksman.
General Holcomb and his men were not the only Marines lacking in sufficient rifle technique at the turn of the century. In the Sept 1971 MARINE CORPS GAZETTE, USMC shooting legend LtCol. W.W. McMillan wrote, "In 1899, Commandant Heywood was appalled to learn that less than a hundred Marines, officers and men, could not meet qualification requirements with the then current Krag Jorgenson rifle. By direction of Major C.H. Lauchheimer, the Corps proceeded to take shooting seriously, both for combat purposes and competition. Marksmanship became a highly prized skill and valued adjunct to leadership."
Prior to World War I, Marines like Calvin A. Lloyd, D.C. McDougal and then-2ndLt Thomas Holcomb advanced the respectability of match shooting, while pioneering instructional techniques and training methods for a far flung expeditionary Corps. In 1906 Marines began getting the M1903 Springfield rifle. Those who could shoot expert with it were rewarded with marksmanship qualification pay of $3.00 per month.
The focus on rifle competition within the Corps reaped dividends in the coming years in Mexico, Cuba, Haiti and in the wheatfields of France. One of the better descriptions of the effects of improved marksmanship through competition is by CPT John Thomason, Jr. in his W.W.I USMC classic "FIX BAYONETS." "The Bosche wanted Hill 142; he came and the rifles broke him and he came again. All his artillery was in action and his machineguns scoured the place, but he could not make headway against the rifles. Guns he could understand; he knew all about bombs and auto-rifles and machine-guns and trench mortars, but aimed sustained rifle fire that comes from nowhere in particular and picks men off- it brought the war home to the individual and demoralized him". And "Already around Hautevesnes there had been a brush with advancing Germans, and the Germans were given a new experience: rifle fire that begins to kill at 800 yards; they found it very interesting!"
One need not take my word for it, or even the historical experiences of the USMC, to appreciate the importance of marksmanship competition to sniping, one need only looked at the life and experiences of Gunny Hathcock, himself a top-ranked competitive shooter and a very successful sniper. Through competition -- whether High Power, under the auspices of the NRA, or the Super Sniper Shootout – you can hone your skills and become the shooter that the bad guys have to worry about.
Gooch is good people. I hadn't read this particular article though. Thanks for posting it.
 
Sure you don't have that backwards, oh earnest one?

View attachment 7006136

Not according to this documentary :cool:



Samurai = Professional soldier

Ninja = Commando. Jack of all trades. He has to be, otherwise his life would be very short and bloody.

Medieval ninja shares the same spotlight with today's modern specops operators and snipers as well. They got to learn and be able to do a lot of things, including things that spies and detectives do. Clandestine warfare has rules of it's own, and evasion / trickery / sabotage plays just as an important role as being able to shoot at minute-of-enemy soldier accuracy at long range. Samurai and modern competitive shooters don't have to do these things.
 
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My basic analogy to compare them would be: If the competitive shooter is the Samurai, the sniper would be the ninja.

Nope you have it backwards.

Being a man at arms does not necessarily equate to an arms enthusiast.

Civilian riflemen shoot because they love to.

Men at arms shoot as a career.

Sure there are enthusiasts in the military but they are often thought of as "He is a "Gun Guy""

There is a negative connotation there. Love of firearms and the 2A is not profound in the military or law enforcement.

Everyone accepts that law enforcement officers are bad shots. Law enforcement officers get more training and are held to a higher standard in their qualification than your average infantryman.

I just went through a 40 hour patrol rifle class this last week. 100% accountability for every round. I shot well but I tell you the required safety liability was a bitch. Moving to safe from fire for lock back mag changes was foreign to every other discipline I have done but I understand the reason for it.

Go to a civilian action shooting event and you will see some first class shooters. The handling skills and ability surpass many and they pay for their own training and ammo. They are invest heart and soul in it.

Traditional cross the course shooting emphasizes the fundamentals. You will not do well without performing them all consistently for each round fired.

Teh mil takes a bunch of disciplines into account and your life depends on them all but less important than the one shot may be the mission and mission is the goal not individual performance.

Now where the big difference comes in is the mindset to do the job.

Sure David Tubb may be a fantastic shooter and I bet if you put him through the shooting excercises at Sniper School he would be just as impressive but the real break comes when asking Mr. Tubb "Are you willing to do a stalk through enemy territory" and lets see if his skills dont degrade when rounds are coming back at him.

If you can combine the skill, heart and soul love of shooting with being a functional socio path that can perform in extremely dangerous environments than you have found something special and rare - these tiny percent of men are the ninjas.

Note 1 - my apology for using the term "functional socio path". I dont imply mental illness in our most effective warriors only that their brains are innoculated against fears that would have me wetting my pants.

Note 2 - My aplogy to Gillette for using the male gender to describe our most proficient military members. I only do so because the other gender has yet to do it, Jessica Lynch aside.
 
There is a long history of civilians working with the military to aide in square range training. AMU (obviously military) sets a training standard and they assist units in marksmanship training. They are though of as the Armys competitive shooters, which they are, but they also roll out to units to help train. Along with the AMU the CMP (civilian marksmanship program) has a civilian to military component. CMP is mostly though of as a place to buy old military firearms and as a competition organization but they occasionally roll members out to help with training military units.

Back in 2004/2005 I was part of a team who went to FTCKY and worked with 3rd BDE (which I previously served with) and worked with some of them and their support personnel on marksmanship, some "distance" shootings with ARs, movers, etc. We used a program that AMU provided and volunteered to go up and help. I like to think it did a lot of good. If nothing else, we showed guys who kept repeating "3MOA gun with 3MOA ammo, can't hit shit with this shit" and proved we could go 90+% hit ratio into a half sized cardboard E Type mover at 400M. It helped build confinadance, and seeing the rifles could do it immediately stopped the excuses and started improving. Not implying they were bad shots at all, just that the confinace in the rifle system was low, as they had just gotten back from A'Stan and commented that they were not happy with the hit ratio or stopping ability.

I'm being long winded as I'm getting nostalgic over this, and clearly it's not apples to apples when talking sniper training but the principle is the same.

@sinister could probably speak volumes to this stuff, he was the OIC of the AMU when TnSSA made the trips up.
 
The most recent CEO's of the CMP have stated they will be more happy when they are out of the firearms sales business.

I think they see firearms sales as a liability to their core mission of training shooters and supporting ranges.

If you spend a little bit more at the CMP on something take it as a good investment in training a shooter and creating a friend in the community.
 
The most recent CEO's of the CMP have stated they will be more happy when they are out of the firearms sales business.

I think they see firearms sales as a liability to their core mission of training shooters and supporting ranges.

If you spend a little bit more at the CMP on something take it as a good investment in training a shooter and creating a friend in the community.


They may be saying that, but they sure aren't acting that way. CMP, over the last 10 years or so has really appeared to deviate from their mission. Across the course rifle matches are dying everywhere, and since that CMP changed the service rifle rules to allow scopes on "service rifles " they have moved the price point for a competitive rifle from $800 to $2500-$3000. On top of that, the break with the NRA and the formation of an array of silly rifle classes is the last ditch flailing of an institution that is drowning. If building that boondoggle of a range next to the rifle sales building is their attempt to say they are providing training, it's worse than I thought.

With the exception of possibly some support for Appleseed events, what is the CMP doing lately to aide in civilian marksmanship? IMO, a once great organization has lost its way. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing any evidance of it.
 
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They may be saying that, but they sure aren't acting that way. CMP, over the last 10 years or so has really appeared to deviate from their mission. Across the course rifle matches are dying everywhere, and since that CMP changed the service rifle rules to allow scopes on "service rifles " they have moved the price point for a competitive rifle from $800 to $2500-$3000. On top of that, the break with the NRA and the formation of an array of silly rifle classes is the last ditch flailing of an institution that is drowning. If building that boondoggle of a range next to the rifle sales building is their attempt to say they are providing training, it's worse than I thought.

With the exception of possibly some support for Appleseed events, what is the CMP doing lately to aide in civilian marksmanship? IMO, a once great organization has lost its way. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing any evidance of it.

You make strong points.

I know CMP pressured a local mil range to continue to support the civilian club when the change of CO wanted to toss them.

I think the other points you make about lack of highpower suport is based on the reality of a shrinking number number of high power shooters.

The only high pwople I see that know what high power is all have gray hair.

Kids dont want to wear painful slings and exhibit discipline they want to play Fortnite.
 
High Power has a place, but people need to recognize it for what it is; the fundamentals, practiced and performed to an extreme. The instruction and discipline that HP provides and instills is invaluable, but I just don't see it as a viable long term sport these days.
 
Its practical riflery and should be the base skill set for anyone before they buy their first tasco.

High Power has a place, but people need to recognize it for what it is; the fundamentals, practiced and performed to an extreme. The instruction and discipline that HP provides and instills is invaluable, but I just don't see it as a viable long term sport these days.
 
I admit I dont shoot XTC anymore. You guys are all correct. I think though, with some minor changes back to the CMP mission, XTC highpower could make a small and consistant resurrection. Step 1 would be CMP and NRA actually pushing to do school safety programs and stop the madness of banning smallbire or even air rifle competitions in public schools. Next, CMP makes loaner rifles and cheap CHEAP ammo available to CMP affiliated clubs and hand that shit over to juniors who show up. The local clubs can and will train them. These two (3?) Steps is all it would take. Getting past step 1 is going to be the fight. Step 2 is simple.

This side discussion may sound like it has little relevancy to the OPs premise, but it really goes hand in hand. A strong CMP, supporting clubs and junior programs at all levels is vital for good marksmanship in the military. Most kids have never handled a rifle, and even though starting with fresh clay can be a good thing, working the current crop of Call of Duty heroes and trying to get them to think, establish NPA, aim, breath, squeeze and execute a good shot without holding a secret squirrel button to keep your sights locked onto a "target" is frustrating.
 
As to the OP's quoted letter, the author of said letter was at one time a member here. I don't know if he STILL is, but if so, it'd be good to hear him chime in. The man has a wealth of interesting experience and anecdotes.

The NRA is dead to many of us and would be a deal killer

It's too bad you think this way. As stated in that other thread, you might want to 'contemplate' that a bit.
 
Good article from 2000 explaining the idea that traditional competitive shooters and snipers/tactical shooters have something to learn from each other and that the disciplines compliment each other. I didn't write it but, think it's an interesting read especially as "precision rifle" competitions are gaining steam. Still relevant?

I hope this is in the correct section, it seemed to fit here best...

http://armarksman.files.wordpress.com/20...ing-sniping.pdf



A Sniper’s Confession: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping
By Kent Gooch, CWO2, USMC (ret)
Originally printed in Tactical Shooter magazine, April 2000

Well before I became a sniper and sniper instructor – nearly 20 years ago -- there has been a rivalry, approaching an adversarial relationship, between the sniper community and High Power, NRA-type shooters in the military. I saw it when I was a Marine stationed at the USMC Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) in Quantico, Virginia in the 80’s and also at the National Guard Bureau MTU in Little Rock, Arkansas in the late 90’s. Often the rivalry was limited to good-humored ribbing; still a good portion of it was serious and said with malicious intent. Often, the banter turned into fisticuffs, with the resulting bad blood between the two communities. This is unfortunate, to say the least.
How many times have you heard these phrases uttered, "I don't care what those paper punchers do, this is sniping and it's an entirely different game!" Who needs to learn how to use a sling? That’s for those yellow glass shooters!" Or from team shooter "Hey sniper! When are you going to learn how to shoot?" and "I'm telling you it's easier to take a National Match Shooter and teach him infantry skills than it is to take a grunt and try to teach him how to shoot!" I have heard these and a lot more, and being familiar with both sides of the rivalry I have come to some conclusions. What I will do here is attempt to show, through my own experiences and historical examples, the importance of competitive shooting events to snipers and how the two shooting disciplines’ interrelate.
There used to be a sign in the classroom of the 3rd Marine Division Scout-Sniper School in Okinawa. It has been awhile, but I remember that it stated that a sniper was a hybrid of a poacher and a competitive shooter. At the time in 1980, the sign really didn't register; it was simply a phrase intended to motivate the students. I was a high expert M16 shooter and that, plus this sniper training I was about to undergo, was going to make me a steely-eyed killer. I graduated, kept training, shot the M16 annually, went on to graduate from the Quantico instructor course, and figured that I was one bad Marine who didn’t need any training in other rifle disciplines. I never really paid much attention to the USMC Competition in Arms program, which holds Division level competitions and culminates in the Marine Corps matches and results in the selection of that year’s "All Marine Corps" teams. I saw the funny looking leg medals and kinda wondered what those distinguished shooters badges were about.
Once I got stationed at the USMC MTU I cohabited with the Marine Corps shooting teams. I made a few friends on the teams and started getting curious about this "competitive shooting" thing. I started talking to the team shooters and some of the more senior ones even taught me some tricks. Unfortunately, during the eight years I was stationed at the MTU, I only shot one rifle match, the 1000-yard stage of the Virginia State Championships. I wanted to see what the deal was. It was a good experience, and it wetted my appetite for later down the road.
In 1989, I was promoted to Warrant Officer and made a Range Officer. USMC Range Officers supervise marksmanship training and are responsible for the training and management of small shooting teams throughout the Corps. Many of the top enlisted rifle and pistol shooters are put into this military occupational specialty. I was selected due to my training background and was expected to get up to speed on the competitive aspects of the USMC marksmanship program. So at my first duty station I was appointed to be team captain of the shooting team at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, CA. Mare Island is the original location of the West Coast Boot Camp and had a tradition of fine shooting teams back to the early 1900's. I was lucky to work with a Staff Sergeant who was an experienced competitive shooter and despite my best efforts to mess things up we put together a team, trained and went to shoot the 1st Marine Division matches in Camp Pendleton.
How did I – one bad sniper – do? You could say that in his first attempt at NRA style Service Rifle shooting this old sniper didn't do so well. In fact, I ended up about halfway down out of about 200 shooters. To understand why I did so poorly, you have to understand what I, a "tactical" shooter, thought about marksmanship and competition:
1. I thought I knew what precision marksmanship was about.
2. I thought I knew how to read wind.
3. I thought I knew what precision shooting under pressure was like.
I was wrong. On all three counts.
While I had a good idea of what was going on, I was only at about a sophomoric level, learned yet stupid. Most of the mistakes I made that first year were mental errors, not physical. I knew shooting positions, I knew wind formulas, and I knew how to press a trigger. The problem was in the application of these aspects, which had kept me at a mediocre level of competitive shooting. Let me explain.
Precision Marksmanship. When training snipers, many times instructors espouse the idea of precision being that as long as the students keep the bullet in the chest they are doing well. In competitive shooting, matches are won and lost in the X-ring. This elusive little sucker can ruin your day if you don't think center instead of a hit in the middle somewhere. What competitive shooting does is develop the mindset during training that if your weapons system is capable of holding .5 minute of angle (MOA), then you should be getting .5 MOA out of it when firing from the shoulder. I found as well that competitive shooting shows you the difference between a good position and a correct position. Not only that but it also shows you that through proper trigger control, position and mental management a shooter can regularly hit a man-sized target from the standing unsupported position at 200 yards and prone at the 600 yardline with iron sights and no support other than a correct position and a little leather strap.
Reading wind. As a sniper you learn how to read wind for your partner. You glue your eye into the scope and casually take a guess at the mirage, grass blowing, whatever. As the shot fires you watch the trace and impact and make required corrections. In competitive shooting you are your own wind caller. You must get the wind right or that little X-ring will elude you enough to put you right out of the competition. On rapid-fire strings you have to be fast, sure and accurate. You have to learn to watch flags, mirage, grass and any other indicators you can find. And when you make a mistake, it's your butt, your embarrassment, and your miss at 3 or 9 o'clock. The ultimate test of this, in my mind, is the 1000 yard match (relax you benchresters). It's in these matches where you are on the line with your peers playing a mental game. Here the X-ring is 10 inches and only the best will nail the sucker on a regular basis while reading their own wind.

Pressure. There are few stressors as evil as competition. When shooting a qualification course you may feel a little stress, when you are shooting for high shooter in a school you may feel even more. But show up to a firing line full of strangers, some of who look like they really know what they are doing. They have high speed looking guns and bright shiny reloads and their shooting jackets have patches from hell all over them. Each shot is spotted and scored and as your points accumulate the stress can start. Each firing line it gets worse and worse, unless you learn to handle it. That is when you will have to learn to deal with stress.
My experiences with High Power shooting impressed upon me the importance of NRA-style competition for a tactical shooter. That does not mean that I believe a High Power shooter in the tactical arena, when compared with the tactical shooter in the High Power arena, will outperform the tactical shooter. Quite the contrary. The proficient tactical shooter should be able to make that X-ring-accurate shot with monotonous regularity, but against live, moving targets whose comrades will shoot back upon successful interdiction. And this does not include the terribly strenuous infiltration and exfiltration necessary for a successful sniper engagement. In short, competitive shooting does not encompass the "poaching" skills referred to on the sign in Okinawa. What I mean is that the proficient sniper can, and should, learn from the High Power shooter, if he is to be a better sniper. This is important, for there is no second place in the sniper’s arena. Only death.
Since I left the USMC I began shooting in the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships in Ottawa, Canada. These matches are open to civilians through the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (www.dcra.ca) which is the Canadian equivalent of the NRA. CFSAC is an excellent example of how bulls-eye competition can be crossbred with combat style skills. Competitors in service rifle/pistol, sniper rifle and light machinegun categories are required to apply precision marksmanship skills in combat oriented courses of fire at extended ranges while under conditions of physical and mental stress. My favorite is the 300m "Agony Snaps". In this match you are assigned a sector of fire in which a "Hun head" sniper target is presented randomly for engagement. The hard part of this is that you don’t know when or where the target will appear only that you will have ten, 3-second exposures in around 10 minutes, plus you have about a 4 inch 5 ring you are hunting. Just when you close your eyes to relax, sure as hell, there it is. The US National Guard runs a similar competition (American Forces Skill at Arms Meeting) in Little Rock, Arkansas annually, however it is not open to civilians.
CFSAC has given me the opportunity to compete against international level shooters and has allowed me to see other countries weapons systems and operational techniques. The firing positions used by Canadian Forces service rifle shooters are a good example of things that can be learned by attending these competitions. These positions, which violate just about every rule in the NRA High Power manual, are very interesting and are worth an article by themselves.
Another type of international competition worth mentioning are the Super Sniper Shootouts put on by Autauqa Arms. These matches draw competitors from all over the world and are a sure way of testing yourself against the best the world has to offer.
Though my own experiences impressed upon me the importance of competitive shooting to sniping, a review of the history of military marksmanship would have led me to the same conclusion. Let’s look at the military side of the question, which, if we are honest, keeps a good portion of the US competitive rifle-shooting program going. I'll focus on the USMC as it is the most active of the services, and I know it well.
The USMC did not have a competitive program prior to 1900. In a letter he wrote to he NRA in 1943, Lt. Gen. Thomas Holcomb, Commandant of the Marine Corps during W.W.II, and a Distinguished Rifle shooter, said the following:
I was introduced to the N.R.A. in 1901. It was a rude introduction because our team was soundly trounced, finishing sixth in both the Hilton Trophy Match and Interstate Team Match- events, which the following year, were combined into the National Rifle Team Match. Naturally, we did not relish such a poor showing so we set out to learn how to shoot. By 1910 the Inspector of Small Arms Practice, U.S.M.C., reported proudly that "over one-third of the men in the Marine Corps are now qualified as marksmen, sharpshooters or expert riflemen!" How many of the present generation of officers realize that in those days the Army, Navy and Marine Corps were actually learning how to shoot from the civilians and civilian-soldiers who formed the backbone of the National Rifle Association? In 1911 the Marines won their first National Rifle Team Match, and by 1917 we had progressed so far along the marksmanship trail that every Marine who sailed overseas was a trained marksman.
General Holcomb and his men were not the only Marines lacking in sufficient rifle technique at the turn of the century. In the Sept 1971 MARINE CORPS GAZETTE, USMC shooting legend LtCol. W.W. McMillan wrote, "In 1899, Commandant Heywood was appalled to learn that less than a hundred Marines, officers and men, could not meet qualification requirements with the then current Krag Jorgenson rifle. By direction of Major C.H. Lauchheimer, the Corps proceeded to take shooting seriously, both for combat purposes and competition. Marksmanship became a highly prized skill and valued adjunct to leadership."
Prior to World War I, Marines like Calvin A. Lloyd, D.C. McDougal and then-2ndLt Thomas Holcomb advanced the respectability of match shooting, while pioneering instructional techniques and training methods for a far flung expeditionary Corps. In 1906 Marines began getting the M1903 Springfield rifle. Those who could shoot expert with it were rewarded with marksmanship qualification pay of $3.00 per month.
The focus on rifle competition within the Corps reaped dividends in the coming years in Mexico, Cuba, Haiti and in the wheatfields of France. One of the better descriptions of the effects of improved marksmanship through competition is by CPT John Thomason, Jr. in his W.W.I USMC classic "FIX BAYONETS." "The Bosche wanted Hill 142; he came and the rifles broke him and he came again. All his artillery was in action and his machineguns scoured the place, but he could not make headway against the rifles. Guns he could understand; he knew all about bombs and auto-rifles and machine-guns and trench mortars, but aimed sustained rifle fire that comes from nowhere in particular and picks men off- it brought the war home to the individual and demoralized him". And "Already around Hautevesnes there had been a brush with advancing Germans, and the Germans were given a new experience: rifle fire that begins to kill at 800 yards; they found it very interesting!"
One need not take my word for it, or even the historical experiences of the USMC, to appreciate the importance of marksmanship competition to sniping, one need only looked at the life and experiences of Gunny Hathcock, himself a top-ranked competitive shooter and a very successful sniper. Through competition -- whether High Power, under the auspices of the NRA, or the Super Sniper Shootout – you can hone your skills and become the shooter that the bad guys have to worry about.


What a great post, it is stuff like this that keeps me coming back to the hide as often as possible.
 
Nope you have it backwards.

Being a man at arms does not necessarily equate to an arms enthusiast.

Civilian riflemen shoot because they love to.

Men at arms shoot as a career.

Sure there are enthusiasts in the military but they are often thought of as "He is a "Gun Guy""

There is a negative connotation there. Love of firearms and the 2A is not profound in the military or law enforcement.

Everyone accepts that law enforcement officers are bad shots. Law enforcement officers get more training and are held to a higher standard in their qualification than your average infantryman.

I just went through a 40 hour patrol rifle class this last week. 100% accountability for every round. I shot well but I tell you the required safety liability was a bitch. Moving to safe from fire for lock back mag changes was foreign to every other discipline I have done but I understand the reason for it.

Go to a civilian action shooting event and you will see some first class shooters. The handling skills and ability surpass many and they pay for their own training and ammo. They are invest heart and soul in it.

Traditional cross the course shooting emphasizes the fundamentals. You will not do well without performing them all consistently for each round fired.

Teh mil takes a bunch of disciplines into account and your life depends on them all but less important than the one shot may be the mission and mission is the goal not individual performance.

Now where the big difference comes in is the mindset to do the job.

Sure David Tubb may be a fantastic shooter and I bet if you put him through the shooting excercises at Sniper School he would be just as impressive but the real break comes when asking Mr. Tubb "Are you willing to do a stalk through enemy territory" and lets see if his skills dont degrade when rounds are coming back at him.

If you can combine the skill, heart and soul love of shooting with being a functional socio path that can perform in extremely dangerous environments than you have found something special and rare - these tiny percent of men are the ninjas.

Note 1 - my apology for using the term "functional socio path". I dont imply mental illness in our most effective warriors only that their brains are innoculated against fears that would have me wetting my pants.

Note 2 - My aplogy to Gillette for using the male gender to describe our most proficient military members. I only do so because the other gender has yet to do it, Jessica Lynch aside.


I grew up in a Leo family. many of mt high school friends are still leo. many of my friends are leo.

Yiur post seems to indicate that you think that leo's are better trained than military. if that is the case, you can not be further from reality unless you are talking about support personnel like cooks, clerks and such.
 
I grew up in a Leo family. many of mt high school friends are still leo. many of my friends are leo.

Yiur post seems to indicate that you think that leo's are better trained than military. if that is the case, you can not be further from reality unless you are talking about support personnel like cooks, clerks and such.


No as a generalization that is not what I am saying.

As a matter of fact though......and Mr Bentsen rest assured I also know a few cops....I was in the military.....and I know for a fact police training, more so, and must necessarily do so, stresses 100 percent accountability of each and every shot fired.

"Gee I dont know where that one went" should not be tolerated from the police.

Think about the two different environments, war vs policing.

I stand by my proposition that the standard of accountability for rounds fired toward the target is higher for police than military and I acknowledge that in real life that stringent expectation is not met.

Neither a Battalion Infantryman or patrol police officer gets the money allotted to be trained to the level they should be.

Where the military gets skill is from doing and with 18 years of war our military is either now very highly skilled or starting to be bled white.

A police officer is likely to spend an entire career never having to unholster. If they do its likely only one encounter he will ever face. Of course some locations, particularly liberal shit holes, may provide more of that.

A military combat vet has faced a number of encounters and can likely become expert at his craft, gaining all sorts of control over his response to adrenaline.

That aside what I said in my post, and what I still stand by, is that just because someone works with guns does not necessarily equate to being "enthusiastic" about guns as many civilian shooters are.

The USMC does its best to instill a true warrior worship of the primary weapon devoting a "Creed" to the rifle but sadly the era from which the "Riflemans Creed" was adopted has passed and my late eighties experience was one of learning and reciting the Creed but the reality was weapons should be locked away or you will hurt yourself with them, in fact you the Marine should be locked away until needed as you will hurt yourself or someone else.

Once upon a time a rifleman could draw his rifle on his own time and was allotted ammunition monthly to practice his skills on his own time.....society will not allow that now and in the police and military circles someone that is perhaps too "enthusiastic" about his duty weapon or weapons in general isnt looked on as "professional" but perhaps "disturbed".
 
and PS......

Im not in any way positing the military condones loose rounds all over the countryside either but obviously there is a difference in the environment of war and the environment of policing otherwise both would issue belt feds.
 
I hear you but disagree. I noted my closeness to leo's to make sure you knew I was not bashing them.

Yes LEOs are held to 100% accountability of rounds fired. but accountability does not translate into training or ability unfoutrnately. as you said, there are cops who never draw their weapon. thats a good thing because most cops do not get the training they need to survive a firefight. I think the studies done on number of rounds fired in police shootings vs number of hits prooveo that. And when they do start shooting, they have zero idea where their rounds are going. I will go so far as to say that many swat units are under trained and I'll equipped.

Maybe the training is different in the Marines, but in a Ranger BN, you are held 100% avmccountable for your rounds. shooting a good guy training leads to physical reinforcement and remedial training. when I was in, an AD resulted in being DXed from the unit.

Back to the original subject. I do know that for many many of the elite spec ops units, civilians are used to train the shooters. Snipers have been attending civilan schools and classes for years. the civilians have the ability to train and become efficient than the military because it is their passion and not their job.

BTW, you do know why god made Rangers dont you?
 
I hear you but disagree. I noted my closeness to leo's to make sure you knew I was not bashing them.

Yes LEOs are held to 100% accountability of rounds fired. but accountability does not translate into training or ability unfoutrnately. as you said, there are cops who never draw their weapon. thats a good thing because most cops do not get the training they need to survive a firefight. I think the studies done on number of rounds fired in police shootings vs number of hits prooveo that. And when they do start shooting, they have zero idea where their rounds are going. I will go so far as to say that many swat units are under trained and I'll equipped.

Maybe the training is different in the Marines, but in a Ranger BN, you are held 100% avmccountable for your rounds. shooting a good guy training leads to physical reinforcement and remedial training. when I was in, an AD resulted in being DXed from the unit.

Back to the original subject. I do know that for many many of the elite spec ops units, civilians are used to train the shooters. Snipers have been attending civilan schools and classes for years. the civilians have the ability to train and become efficient than the military because it is their passion and not their job.

BTW, you do know why god made Rangers dont you?

I think some of this depends on comparing apples to apples. There are people/aspects of the military that are highly trained and others that are not, when speaking of “firefighting.” The same could be said about police units. I think it largely depends on where you are and what position you are in.

For example, I know several SWAT members of two rather large municipalities about 1 hour from me. They train, a lot, and I do mean lot because I have been on some of the training myself as a special invited guest for various reasons. Many of these guys had prior mil experience and some will say that they get more training now than they ever did in the mil. Again, a lot of this depends on your specialty. Obviously, I wouldn’t expect someone in logistics to know their way around weapons as well as I would someone in infantry. You know what I mean? However, it again, depends on what you are.

Now compare those SWAT guys to some of the local county sheriffs and some of these guys would be lucky to pass a physical much less a weapons qualification course lol. I do think the local sheriff have to put their skills to the test once a year here but last I heard they were woefully inept in any weapons skillset as most barely passed the basics. So, again, it’s all dependent on several variables. I don’t think we can make a blanket statement about all of them one way or the other.
 
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I hear you but disagree. I noted my closeness to leo's to make sure you knew I was not bashing them.

Yes LEOs are held to 100% accountability of rounds fired. but accountability does not translate into training or ability unfoutrnately. as you said, there are cops who never draw their weapon. thats a good thing because most cops do not get the training they need to survive a firefight. I think the studies done on number of rounds fired in police shootings vs number of hits prooveo that. And when they do start shooting, they have zero idea where their rounds are going. I will go so far as to say that many swat units are under trained and I'll equipped.

Maybe the training is different in the Marines, but in a Ranger BN, you are held 100% avmccountable for your rounds. shooting a good guy training leads to physical reinforcement and remedial training. when I was in, an AD resulted in being DXed from the unit.

Back to the original subject. I do know that for many many of the elite spec ops units, civilians are used to train the shooters. Snipers have been attending civilan schools and classes for years. the civilians have the ability to train and become efficient than the military because it is their passion and not their job.

BTW, you do know why god made Rangers dont you?

Rangers are just your common Marine that was too dumb to read the signs on the recruiters door.

I hope Army gives Regiment more training than a line Infantryman in the Big Red One just as Recon Battalion gets more fire time than 8th Marine Regiment.

Still though line Infantry training is pretty sparse.

Check out the rounds fired to kill ratio for the US military. We expend, and spend, tens of thousands in ammo and money per kill.

Training all around is lacking.

The effort is on important stuff like "Getting along with your Transgender Battle Buddy"
 
I think the spirit of this thread is starting to shift, or at least I hadn't considered the accountability aspect of it.

No question both sides are responsible for rounds downrange, but when you have 5SF gun trucks unloading on a couple buildings at 2AM, who's gonna go check if lil' Facima took a round to the torso?

I shoot more in a month now than a year when I was Infantry in both 6/502 and 1/187. Only downside is I have to pay for my ammo and I don't have access to some of the awesome shoot house facilities we had. At least not without paying for a class, and that's a one and done.

I compete with several police and .mil guys in highpower. When I ran matches, .mil got to shoot for free. I encouraged both to come out as often as possible, because one never knows... one of those guys could be saving my ass, or one of my family members asses down the road and it's fun to shoot along side professionals.

I think the shooting community as a whole has a soft spot for 1st responders and .mil. Many of us have been there, and realize the sacrifice. Most of us appreciate it, encourage them to come out and shoot along side us (get out of their cliche', as so often happens) and have fun. Most will do what we can to help accommodate this, as an e4 might have a hard time chocking up $100 in ammo for a 3x1000. The unfortunate part is we reach very, very few.

Edit: CMP used to help us with loaner rifles and ammo, but since they became a sales department and range facility that shit stopped.
 
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Rangers are just your common Marine that was too dumb to read the signs on the recruiters door.

I hope Army gives Regiment more training than a line Infantryman in the Big Red One just as Recon Battalion gets more fire time than 8th Marine Regiment.

Still though line Infantry training is pretty sparse.

Check out the rounds fired to kill ratio for the US military. We expend, and spend, tens of thousands in ammo and money per kill.

Training all around is lacking.

The effort is on important stuff like "Getting along with your Transgender Battle Buddy"

Agreed!!! Geez, and I was over here trying to be nice and shit with my response! Haha!
 
BTW the whole rounds down range to hits ratio is a BS data point, we use indirect rifle fire more than any other military to pin the opposition in place while we call in heavy shit to kill them at distance, we use cover fire more than any other, we never for a moment stop to think about not getting resupplied quickly,,,,,, no other military thinks this way. Recon by fire comes to mind.
 
BTW the whole rounds down range to hits ratio is a BS data point, we use indirect rifle fire more than any other military to pin the opposition in place while we call in heavy shit to kill them at distance, we use cover fire more than any other, we never for a moment stop to think about not getting resupplied quickly,,,,,, no other military thinks this way. Recon by fire comes to mind.


.....and the Lord looked and saw that it was good.

Artillery is the King of battle for a reason.

Nothing makes me prouder than to read historical accounts of German soldiers whining that they made a rifle attack on an American unit and the American's responded with more artillery ammo against their platoon than their parent Battalion would be allotted for a month.

Still though that makes my point that the US mil cost to kill ratio is up there and there is less emphasis on what happens around or behind the intended impact zone.

At least there used to be when the US fought to win wars.

Having politicians screw wit ROE to prevent killing goats (or there enemy herders) should not be a factor for the soldier.

We should all be thankful cops are not issued 155's.

and Im aware that the military does stress concern for friendly fire/blue on blue. Probably more so than cops because in most encounters the mil will have more local blue than a patrol cop will, being either alone or with one partner.

All bets are off though if its an FBI raid to take down a 70 year old man. I wonder how much fratricidal wounding they had to cover up in that op.
 
Less emphasis on the collateral targets is correct, I would have no problem flattening whole cities to keep one of my troops from getting killed. These cities are filled with the civilian support of the people that are shooting at my unit so they get what they get.... Germany and Japan didnt surrender because they were scared or because we asked, they surrendered because we killed the shit out of them, soldier and civilian alike,,,,total war... the only way war should be fought.


as far as cops are concerned, I think they all need to be disarmed and issued a billy club. the militaristic transformation of the popo who will kill at the behest of the Dem and Repub parties have made them somewhat an enemy of our Constitution and a danger to the republic. Its time to disarm them, and lock up teh whole senior executive service of the fedgov especially the FBI
 
.....and the Lord looked and saw that it was good.

Artillery is the King of battle for a reason.

Nothing makes me prouder than to read historical accounts of German soldiers whining that they made a rifle attack on an American unit and the American's responded with more artillery ammo against their platoon than their parent Battalion would be allotted for a month.

Still though that makes my point that the US mil cost to kill ratio is up there and there is less emphasis on what happens around or behind the intended impact zone.

At least there used to be when the US fought to win wars.

Having politicians screw wit ROE to prevent killing goats (or there enemy herders) should not be a factor for the soldier.

Yeah, back before politicians got involved in tactics and strategy, and it seemed the they cared for American lives. Now, the guy on the ground is an after thought once we are in. However, I can never see of performing another D Day, not to mention a Tokyo or Dresden. These positions seem to oppose one another, so I am left pondering the dichotomy. Maybe both accounts are just lack of intestinal fortitude by leader of all ranks and positions?
 
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I have no doubt that the generation we have now would do D Day over and probably do it better.... 75% of soldiers in WW2 were draftees, not the volunteers that are portrayed in the media, only 25% in Vietnam were Draftees, the soldiers in VN were better soldiers on average, way better. Dont mistake the rank and file for the chicken hawks in that traitorous DC, the pentagon, the Academies or the MIC.
 
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We have several deviated from the thread topic.

Curious how today's soldiers are Marines would qualify with a Garand or 1903? Civilians are still using the M1A in competition, though in very limited numbers these days. Specialty slots get M110s, M14DMRs and SCAR17s, but not the rank and file. I don't poo poo the 5.56, but it would be an interesting exercise to see how the current crop would stack up with Grandpa's battle rifles. I would think civilians would have a lot to offer if we started moving back toward a round that hit with some authority.
 
I have no doubt that the generation we have now would do D Day over and probably do it better.... 75% of soldiers in WW2 were draftees, not the volunteers that are portrayed in the media, only 25% in Vietnam were Draftees, the soldiers in VN were better soldiers on average, way better. Dont mistake the rank and file for the chicken hawks in that traitorous DC, the pentagon, the Academies or the MIC.

Im just finishing up Major Winters own account of his time with Easy 506th PIR.

Amazing how quickly attrition eroded the hard nucleus of his Company and how what replaced them was just not the same. Throughout his fight he had to depend mostly on a hardened few there from the beginning.

When Winters got called up for Korea he went to visit Tony McAuliffe (CG Personel in DC) to ask if he could be excused from going to Korea.

McAuliffe asked Winters if he thought what the Academy produced or what came from the draft or ROTC could command a Regiment and Winters had no choice but to answer "No" which was why McAuliffe had no choice but to require he fight a second war.

Luckily for Winters, and at great harm to the country, the MIC established a policy of "stalemate" constant war and he never had to leave conus.

I agree a volunteer professional military should exceed a conscript based military. Unfortunately, I know you know this, it removes the pressure that would be applied on a politician to end the war quickly.

So few have skin in the game and the public has an impression "Well they volunteered, they knew what they were getting".

If "Precious" got caught up in a draft you could bet his Mom would be on the Senators steps every morning ranting at him to "Bomb those savages into the stone age and get my baby home, NOW!"

The mil families are too few and too stoic.

"With your shield or upon it" needs to go National.
 
We have several deviated from the thread topic.

Curious how today's soldiers are Marines would qualify with a Garand or 1903? Civilians are still using the M1A in competition, though in very limited numbers these days. Specialty slots get M110s, M14DMRs and SCAR17s, but not the rank and file. I don't poo poo the 5.56, but it would be an interesting exercise to see how the current crop would stack up with Grandpa's battle rifles. I would think civilians would have a lot to offer if we started moving back toward a round that hit with some authority.


There are videos out there of current mil using legacy rifles.

Usually they example some bad form with great respect for the heft and recoil.

Pretty much fam fire excercises.

but than you get "enthusiast" shooters like Dennis DeMille (career Marine retired) tha can shoot cleans in rapid with his 03A3 looking like a salty 1930's bannana war vet in form just missing the campaign cover and leggings.
 
@pmclaine

Because even Marines need someone to look up to.


Yes we got and still get a lot of live fire training. make a mistake and your likely dx'ed from bn.

All ball busting aside (seriously) I still have to disagree with you about the level of training between an active duty leg unit and a beat cop.

And back to the op, the military sends its best shooters to train with civilians. that answers the question.
 
@pmclaine

Because even Marines need someone to look up to.


Yes we got and still get a lot of live fire training. make a mistake and your likely dx'ed from bn.

All ball busting aside (seriously) I still have to disagree with you about the level of training between an active duty leg unit and a beat cop.

And back to the op, the military sends its best shooters to train with civilians. that answers the question.


Agree to disagree.

Depends on the police agency. Small town will have less resources than some others.