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What caused this primer failure?

m1ajunkie

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Feb 22, 2010
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Last night I fired 5 handloaded rounds through my 20" 308 AR. FC brass, 175 smk bullet, 41.5 IMR4064, the 5 rounds average 2570 fps which is in the ballpark of normal for a 20" I believe.

However, I had 2 of the WLR primers piece at the edge..... see the 2 primers at the top of the pic in my hand. I don't believe I'm seeing any other pressure signs on the case head. The bummer is these pierced primers apparently stuck my ejector down, and cut little divots into my bolt face.

What would cause a primer to pierce at the edge like this? Is this bolt still safe to use once I get the ejector functioning again?

IMG_5327.jpg
 
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Ah bummer.... wish I would have known winchester primers were known for this.

Glad to know the bolt is still okay to use.

Thanks for the replies.
 
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did you make sure the case was completely dry before putting the primer in ? it only takes the tiniest bit of moisture in the case to keep a primer from going off or to make the surrounding powder wet enough to prevent the primers tiny spark from igniting the now wet powder if you take them apart check to see if there is powder if the primer went off that powder can be reused if there is any to reuse the primer unless it was defective is probably spent .
 
I like fc brass the best. I primarily use wlr primers. I've never had this issue. I load my brass up to 10 times annealing every 3 third resize. Do you clean your primer pockets good? How many loadings on the brass?
Your load doesn't seem exceptionally hot to me..... maybe warm but
 
This is the classic Winchester primer failure. If you remove the primer, you’ll see that it’s cracked along the side of the cup, and gas leaked through the crack.

They crack because they’re too hard; I suspect Winchester skipped an annealing step to save cost, but don’t have proof other than the failures. It seems to be specific to the large primers, both rifle and pistol. It’ll happen with mild loads too, even 35-40Ksi stuff like 30/30, in case you’re tempted to save them.

Back when it was common you could call Winchester and they’d reimburse you for them. It took some phone time to get it done, but I had a whole case swapped out. No idea what they’re doing about it now.
 
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Winchester white box primers that were made pre-2001-ish were nickle or chromed didn't have this issue. It only surfaced when they began selling brass colored primers.
Correct on the nickel primers.

It didn’t start when they switched to brass colored primers though; they had 6-7 years of good primers at first. It was right around the first Obama term and subsequent rush on ammo and components when Winchester messed up their primers. (Part of the reason I suspect they took a shortcut, to get more components out for the rush.)
 
Well, a picture would certainly help, no?

Touche, he's a pic of the bolt. You'll notice the ejector is stuck down..... this is the other problem I'm trying to solve. Removed the roll pin and zero luck getting the ejector to budge. I assume a piece of primer is wedged in there. I've smacked it, tried driving it deeper let it soak in brake fluid, zero luck.

IMG_5329.jpg
 
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Touche, he's a pic of the bolt. You'll notice the ejector is stuck down..... this is the other problem I'm trying to solve. Removed the roll pin and zero luck getting the ejector to budge. I assume a piece of primer is wedged in there. I've smacked it, tried driving it deeper let it soak in brake fluid, zero luck.

View attachment 7874875
Wow, that really did cut a divot out of the bolt face...more than I was expecting. I'm not expert, listen to the other guys, but I don't see any reason that this bolt is not safe....aside from your stuck ejector (and that really sucks).

I've not pierced a primer with rifles as for the last few decades I competed at skeet (note that I did NOT say I was competitive at skeet! haha...but I sure donated a lot of money to prize pots LOL).

I have pierced many primers with O/U shotguns...well, specifically my K-80 and 20 ga Remington Gun Clubs when those fuckers switched to a cheap ass Spanish primer with a brittle cup that the K-80 pins would pierce...maybe 2-4 out of a box of shells.

Of course quit shooting them in my K-80 as pins were like $300 for a set....and that was some time ago.

But, my sort of meandering point is that they never cut the breech face like that. Now, shotgun target loads are running about 9-10K psi which is far below what we experience in rifles so I would expect more gas cutting. But that is a nice gouge, alright.

Oh, about your ejector...perhaps soak with some Kroil penetrating oil? And there is absolutely no access to the back end of the ejector to nudge it out? I know squat about AR's.
 
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Wow, that really did cut a divot out of the bolt face...more than I was expecting. I'm not expert, listen to the other guys, but I don't see any reason that this bolt is not safe....aside from your stuck ejector (and that really sucks).

I've not pierced a primer with rifles as for the last few decades I competed at skeet (note that I did NOT say I was competitive at skeet! haha...but I sure donated a lot of money to prize pots LOL).

I have pierced many primers with O/U shotguns...well, specifically my K-80 and 20 ga Remington Gun Clubs when those fuckers switched to a cheap ass Spanish primer with a brittle cup that the K-80 pins would pierce...maybe 2-4 out of a box of shells.

Of course quit shooting them in my K-80 as pins were like $300 for a set....and that was some time ago.

But, my sort of meandering point is that they never cut the breech face like that. Now, shotgun target loads are running about 9-10K psi which is far below what we experience in rifles so I would expect more gas cutting. But that is a nice gouge, alright.

Oh, about your ejector...perhaps soak with some Kroil penetrating oil? And there is absolutely no access to the back end of the ejector to nudge it out? I know squat about AR's.

Zero access to the back side of the ejector. I've got the bolt soaking now but otherwise I'm scratching my head. Clearly there is primer material wedged in there but given I can't get any movement out of the ejector I'm not sure how I'm going to get it free.

Lesson learned on the WLR primers.
 
Zero access to the back side of the ejector. I've got the bolt soaking now but otherwise I'm scratching my head. Clearly there is primer material wedged in there but given I can't get any movement out of the ejector I'm not sure how I'm going to get it free.

Lesson learned on the WLR primers.
In an effort to get the ejector pin to push up, after some soaking, I'd tap it downward several times with a punch to just get it moving and that might loosen it up enough to get it to pop up.
 
In an effort to get the ejector pin to push up, after some soaking, I'd tap it downward several times with a punch to just get it moving and that might loosen it up enough to get it to pop up.
Yeah, I thought the same but when he said he couldn't get "any movement" I assumed (yeah, that word) that he tried to push it in to try to break it free.

@m1ajunkie - ah, you can't get any movement on it, correct? That is, even taking a brass punch and a small hammer...it won't move into the bolt as well as not coming out?
 
Yeah, I thought the same but when he said he couldn't get "any movement" I assumed (yeah, that word) that he tried to push it in to try to break it free.

@m1ajunkie - ah, you can't get any movement on it, correct? That is, even taking a brass punch and a small hammer...it won't move into the bolt as well as not coming out?

This is correct.... Using a punch/ hammer and bolt secured in a vice I am not able to get the ejector to move inward at all. I even got pretty bold with the hammer and started hitting it pretty hard, what ever is in there must be wedged pretty solid.

I've got a spare bolt I'm tempted to drop in to keep shooting while I figure out how to get this first one fixed.
 
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This is correct.... Using a punch/ hammer and bolt secured in a vice I am not able to get the ejector to move inward at all. I even got pretty bold with the hammer and started hitting it pretty hard, what ever is in there must be wedged pretty solid.

I've got a spare bolt I'm tempted to drop in to keep shooting while I figure out how to get this first one fixed.
Wow, that is jammed up.

Do you think tapping it and threading in a screw might help by giving you some purchase.

Or, use a drill press and just drill the bastard out….and I say that in utter ignorance of anything that is machinist like knowledge. So, take it w a grain of salt.

Also, are they dissimilar metals (e.g. one I’s steel and one is brass) and maybe popping it into the freezer for a while might get you some room. Or warmed up in the oven?

Just spitballing here.
 
Wow, that is jammed up.

Do you think tapping it and threading in a screw might help by giving you some purchase.

Or, use a drill press and just drill the bastard out….and I say that in utter ignorance of anything that is machinist like knowledge. So, take it w a grain of salt.

Also, are they dissimilar metals (e.g. one I’s steel and one is brass) and maybe popping it into the freezer for a while might get you some room. Or warmed up in the oven?

Just spitballing here.

Ahhhh good call.... I didn't think about the freezer. I don't really want to add heat until I can talk to the manufacturer to see if they have any guidance but I'll pop it in the freezer this afternoon and see what happens.
 
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Winchester white box primers that were made pre-2001-ish were nickle or chromed didn't have this issue. It only surfaced when they began selling brass colored primers.
When they went from nickel-plated to plain brass cups I had to reduce my 5.56 Match loads because of all the gas leakage and bolt face etching.

Once I used up my Winchester Small Rifle primers I migrated to CCI 450s and Remington 7 1/2s.

Your bolt face etching isn't bad, but I wouldn't risk it getting worse. 41.5 of 4064 is on the light side of middle charge (you need 2550 fps to keep a 175 supersonic at 1,000 yards).

That particular lot of primers is suspect.
 
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Right when they removed the nickel plating from their primers I had a case of them that did the exact same thing. As sated before it blows out @ the corner due to a crack.
Called Winchester & they had me send in 10 for testing. Imagine my shock when they said they all tested fine & basically told me to F-off. I'll never use another Winchester product again.
 
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Found out about this issue just after buying a case of WinLR and loading FC .308.

Never had a problem with 30-06 in KA Korean mil brass or LC.

Saving those Win primers now only for formerly crimped brass.

FC gets Fed primers and put on the market second firing.
 
Are these current production primers or have you had them for a while?

I have had these a while, I would estimate 10 years maybe so these are by no means new production. Given my primer stash is running low I decided to dip into the WLR pile..... fail on my part.
 
I have had these a while, I would estimate 10 years maybe so these are by no means new production. Given my primer stash is running low I decided to dip into the WLR pile..... fail on my part.
Yeah - that puts them right square in the worst years for these.

And FC brass has nothing to do with it, nor does hot loads. These will crack and leak with any brass, in any load; it’s pretty random when you get a bad one and when they work ok. I’ve had them crack even in subsonic 35 Remington loads in good brass, maybe 15K-20K psi at a guess? Have the pitted bolt face to prove it, in a rifle from 1952. Winchester offered to replace my bolt, but good luck with that. Don’t bother saving them for mild loads.
 
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Yeah - that puts them right square in the worst years for these.

And FC brass has nothing to do with it, nor does hot loads. These will crack and leak with any brass, in any load; it’s pretty random when you get a bad one and when they work ok. I’ve had them crack even in subsonic 35 Remington loads in good brass, maybe 15K-20K psi at a guess? Have the pitted bolt face to prove it, in a rifle from 1952. Winchester offered to replace my bolt, but good luck with that. Don’t bother saving them for mild loads.

No plans to save these, I only have like 1k of these so I'll just trash them. All I shoot with large rifle primer is .308 and 6.5CM so nothing I would consider remotely low pressure.
 
No plans to save these, I only have like 1k of these so I'll just trash them. All I shoot with large rifle primer is .308 and 6.5CM so nothing I would consider remotely low pressure.
I would toss em or you could make an exploding target with them. Be careful though, 1000 primers is quite a pop.

It's basically $100 -$130 you are tossing, which isn't nothing, but not worth risking serious damage to your rifle at all.
 
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Winchester primers in any round have always sucked.
They have had the worst fail to fire rate of anything I have used.

I stopped buying Winchester products two decades ago.

For the 308 FC brass get FC primers and all problems will disappear.

No problems even when I went overboard with some charges.

Winchester / worst primer in the industry.
Imho
 
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I have several K WLR primers from around 93 or 94. Haven't used any of them for years.
I used them back then to load for my M1A and Garand for High Power Comp as they were a harder cup and didn't tend to slam fire.
Back then I never had any problems with them and most shooters at that time were using them because of the harder cups, Fed was the worst in those days as to slam fires.
After reading this thread I now wonder if those old ones I have are worth a shit?
I have an old 06 bolt rifle I don't much give a shit about so I may load a few and see if they go bang and what happens.
The primers have always been stored in 70-80 degree dry area.
I hope this is a case of,"They don't make em like they used to." as I have a lot of them.
What do you guys think?
 
I have several K WLR primers from around 93 or 94. Haven't used any of them for years.
I used them back then to load for my M1A and Garand for High Power Comp as they were a harder cup and didn't tend to slam fire.
Back then I never had any problems with them and most shooters at that time were using them because of the harder cups, Fed was the worst in those days as to slam fires.
After reading this thread I now wonder if those old ones I have are worth a shit?
I have an old 06 bolt rifle I don't much give a shit about so I may load a few and see if they go bang and what happens.
The primers have always been stored in 70-80 degree dry area.
I hope this is a case of,"They don't make em like they used to." as I have a lot of them.
What do you guys think?

Not worth messing with in my opinion..... This stuck ejector is really annoying and the etched bolt face is a real bummer on a rifle I'm literally 25 rounds into. Plenty of other good options out there that you won't have to worry about.
 
... stuck ejector is really annoying and the etched bolt face is a real bummer on a rifle I'm literally 25 rounds into. Plenty of other good options out there that you won't have to worry about.
Ouch.

Personally, I'd sell 'em and find something better / harder.
 
I have several K WLR primers from around 93 or 94. Haven't used any of them for years.
I used them back then to load for my M1A and Garand for High Power Comp as they were a harder cup and didn't tend to slam fire.
Back then I never had any problems with them and most shooters at that time were using them because of the harder cups, Fed was the worst in those days as to slam fires.
After reading this thread I now wonder if those old ones I have are worth a shit?
I have an old 06 bolt rifle I don't much give a shit about so I may load a few and see if they go bang and what happens.
The primers have always been stored in 70-80 degree dry area.
I hope this is a case of,"They don't make em like they used to." as I have a lot of them.
What do you guys think?
Those should be the nickel plated primers. If they’ve been stored well, they should be just fine.
 
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Just a bit of follow up, I was able to get a hold of Olin customer service this morning where I explained what my situation. They have requested all remaining primers that I have from this lot be sent back for them to inspect as well as the pieces of fired brass I have.
 
I have several K WLR primers from around 93 or 94. Haven't used any of them for years.
I used them back then to load for my M1A and Garand for High Power Comp as they were a harder cup and didn't tend to slam fire.
Back then I never had any problems with them and most shooters at that time were using them because of the harder cups, Fed was the worst in those days as to slam fires.
After reading this thread I now wonder if those old ones I have are worth a shit?
I have an old 06 bolt rifle I don't much give a shit about so I may load a few and see if they go bang and what happens.
The primers have always been stored in 70-80 degree dry area.
I hope this is a case of,"They don't make em like they used to." as I have a lot of them.
What do you guys think?

Mike,
If those are the white and orange box primers, keep using them.
I also haven't had any issues with the blue box WSR primers.

The issue has been with the blue box, non-nickle coated ones.
 
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Not worth messing with in my opinion..... This stuck ejector is really annoying and the etched bolt face is a real bummer on a rifle I'm literally 25 rounds into. Plenty of other good options out there that you won't have to worry about.
OK I understand your feelings about WLR primers NOW but do you think that possibly their QC has gone down from 93 to present and I should just throw away everything Win I have on hand from years passed without at least giving the old ones a try?
They worked for me years ago and now in this time of plenty of primers to buy I am hesitant to throw away what I have.
I had QC problems with Win 6.5 CM ammo for the first rifle I bought in that caliber about 8 years ago and bought 2 boxes of ammo that were Win as I figured I would be able to use the brass.
I took that new rifle to the range to sight it in with Factory Win ammo and fired 1 shot and it blew the primer clear out of the pocket. It fell on the bench upon ejection.
I thought that may have been a fluke so I fired 1 more round with the same results. There were no other pressure signs other than the primer was shithouse and I knew there was a problem.
To say I was pissed would be an understatement and yes it did etch the boltface to a degree but not as bad as yours, and it was a new rifle with 0 rounds down range.
I called Win and bitched as I was hoping no one else would go through what I had and they sent a return shipping label and that shit was gone.
There was never a recall on that lot of ammo but they sure sent a lot of fine reward products my way. SWAG I think you call it.
What I am trying to get at is that later Win products are not what they used to be as they were top of the line back then but are worth shit now.
I no longer use any Winchester products, other than brass and that better be OLD or I hesitate to use it.
 
Stolen from another forum

I guess this is kind of old news. This is info from another forum. I have several boxes of Winchester primers I am going to have to check. As I said this is from another forum so if it's on the internet it has to be true "sarcasm" but it does bare checking your stock and maybe calling.


Bad Winchester primer lot numbers
Call Winchester 1-618-258-2738 Sharon.
Okay, here's what I've got.

Once again, these lot numbers are simply ones that have been reported as problematic by internet posters. I have no way of knowing if the information is correct, or that other lots not listed are okay. It's your responsibility to contact Winchester for specific information.

LOTS REPORTED BY USERS ONLINE:

CAL401G
CFL486G
CLL555G
DAL594G
DFL717G
DHL766G
DNL 837G
DNL836G
EAL234G
GDL 225G
GEL 250G
DML834G WLR
EAL234G WLRM
CLL555G
CCL435G
EHL067G
DHL774G
DHL788G
DAL594G
CAL401G
GDL255G
GFL284G
DGL741G
FEL255G
DGL731G
DKL801G
HLL692G
DHL765G
DFL713G
DLL826G
DFL723G
DEL690G
CLL552G
DGL747G

LOTS IN MY POSSESSION RECALLED BY WINCHESTER:

CGL499G
HKL687G

Sharon got back to me this morning. She wants the following lots back:

HBL
HFL
DHL
HCL
HAL

Just off the phone with Sharon. They want all mine back - here are the Lot Numbers:

WLRM:
DFL188G

WLR:
DEL702G
DFL719G
GEL258G
DFL722 G
I reported the 5 lot numbers I have on hand and Sharon called today wanting all of them back.
BDL
DHL
CFL
EFL
DFL


Add these to the list:
DEL 688G
HFL 590G
HEL 374G
YKL270G
 
Stolen from another forum

I guess this is kind of old news. This is info from another forum. I have several boxes of Winchester primers I am going to have to check. As I said this is from another forum so if it's on the internet it has to be true "sarcasm" but it does bare checking your stock and maybe calling.


Bad Winchester primer lot numbers
Call Winchester 1-618-258-2738 Sharon.
Okay, here's what I've got.

Once again, these lot numbers are simply ones that have been reported as problematic by internet posters. I have no way of knowing if the information is correct, or that other lots not listed are okay. It's your responsibility to contact Winchester for specific information.

LOTS REPORTED BY USERS ONLINE:

CAL401G
CFL486G
CLL555G
DAL594G
DFL717G
DHL766G
DNL 837G
DNL836G
EAL234G
GDL 225G
GEL 250G
DML834G WLR
EAL234G WLRM
CLL555G
CCL435G
EHL067G
DHL774G
DHL788G
DAL594G
CAL401G
GDL255G
GFL284G
DGL741G
FEL255G
DGL731G
DKL801G
HLL692G
DHL765G
DFL713G
DLL826G
DFL723G
DEL690G
CLL552G
DGL747G

LOTS IN MY POSSESSION RECALLED BY WINCHESTER:

CGL499G
HKL687G

Sharon got back to me this morning. She wants the following lots back:

HBL
HFL
DHL
HCL
HAL

Just off the phone with Sharon. They want all mine back - here are the Lot Numbers:

WLRM:
DFL188G

WLR:
DEL702G
DFL719G
GEL258G
DFL722 G
I reported the 5 lot numbers I have on hand and Sharon called today wanting all of them back.
BDL
DHL
CFL
EFL
DFL


Add these to the list:
DEL 688G
HFL 590G
HEL 374G
YKL270G

Yes, old news. There used to be lots of lists of primer lot #s floating around, but the truth is, ALL Winchester large primers from the early Obama era to now are suspect. You can compile all the lot numbers you want, but if your lot number is not on the list, your primers are still suspect and likely to leak. The true list would include every lot number they've made, so it's kind of pointless.
 
OK I understand your feelings about WLR primers NOW but do you think that possibly their QC has gone down from 93 to present and I should just throw away everything Win I have on hand from years passed without at least giving the old ones a try?
They worked for me years ago and now in this time of plenty of primers to buy I am hesitant to throw away what I have.
I had QC problems with Win 6.5 CM ammo for the first rifle I bought in that caliber about 8 years ago and bought 2 boxes of ammo that were Win as I figured I would be able to use the brass.
I took that new rifle to the range to sight it in with Factory Win ammo and fired 1 shot and it blew the primer clear out of the pocket. It fell on the bench upon ejection.
I thought that may have been a fluke so I fired 1 more round with the same results. There were no other pressure signs other than the primer was shithouse and I knew there was a problem.
To say I was pissed would be an understatement and yes it did etch the boltface to a degree but not as bad as yours, and it was a new rifle with 0 rounds down range.
I called Win and bitched as I was hoping no one else would go through what I had and they sent a return shipping label and that shit was gone.
There was never a recall on that lot of ammo but they sure sent a lot of fine reward products my way. SWAG I think you call it.
What I am trying to get at is that later Win products are not what they used to be as they were top of the line back then but are worth shit now.
I no longer use any Winchester products, other than brass and that better be OLD or I hesitate to use it.

I'm guessing the OP (who didn't know about this issue until a couple days ago) is probably not the person to ask about your primers.

A couple of us have already answered your question and are speaking from experience.
 
Yes, old news. There used to be lots of lists of primer lot #s floating around, but the truth is, ALL Winchester large primers from the early Obama era to now are suspect. You can compile all the lot numbers you want, but if your lot number is not on the list, your primers are still suspect and likely to leak. The true list would include every lot number they've made, so it's kind of pointless.
Not my words lulz. Literally everything after my opening sentence of stolen from another site is from the other post. I have 6000 win large rifle magnum primers. Is Winchester still issuing refunds/replacements what 15 years down the road? If so at current street prices? I doubt it.
 
Did you get the ejector out yet? Lay some flat wood down and smack the bolt face down onto the wood. You are trying to create momentum like the ammo hammers to take cartridges apart. It may work.
 
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Did you get the ejector out yet? Lay some flat wood down and smack the bolt face down onto the wood. You are trying to create momentum like the ammo hammers to take cartridges apart. It may work.

No luck on the ejector yet.... I reached out to customer service for the manufacturer to see if they might have any guidance but no response today.

I have smacked the bolt face probably 50 times on a piece of wood, I tried using a punch again today to drive the ejector deeper, I put the bolt assembly in the freezer all yesterday afternoon. I'm legit stumped on what to do next. Wish I could get something figured out as I really want to run this rifle this weekend if possible.

I have a spare bolt I'm tempted to drop in just to keep shooting if I can't get this one fixed.
 
You can put a .45 ACP case in the bolt face, then tighten the bolt and case in your vice. Drive out the ejector pin with a punch. The ejector and pin should come out so you can clean it out if it's a brass shaving.
 
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