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What does 6.5 do over 7.62?

K

KCode

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 25, 2019
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Well I'm mad and intrigued at the same time. I'm a die hard 308cal guy and had all intentions of dying with that caliber of old age. But on here you guys kept and kept pushing me towards 6.5 Creedmoor so I at least looked into why I shouldn't do it.

Less recoil, less powder usage, bullets are about $10 cheaper per 100.

Last leg I had to stand on was MIL and LE still use the 308 for sniper usage though. But then I found out SOCOM is wanting to go to 6.5 Creedmoor over 308 due to it being a more effective round. :cautious:

So is a 308cal really just old tech that still gets it done but there are better options out there?

Does the 6.5 Creedmoor really do better at target shooting?

Is the 6.5 Creedmoor really more effective than 308 on 2 legged threats?
 
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Look up popular factory loaded ammunition in both calibers and plug the numbers into the ballistic calculator of your choice. Look a the drop differences out to 1000 yards. This is an easy example that will illustrate why people are recommending it.

Hand loading and cherry picking speciality bullets can even the playing field, but generally 6.5 Creedmoor will be easier to shoot at further distances than .308 win.
 
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6.5 is essentially shooting much lighter bullets
If you drop your .308 down to bullets in the 140gr and such range and custom load better bullets at higher speeds then yep you get nice numbers.
 
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The 6.5 blows the doors off the .308 for target shooting. Pretty easy to run both through a calculator. The 6.5 BC’s are in an entirely different class than the 30 cal bullets in the weight range you’d shoot out of a 308. The 6.5 basically works out to 25% less wind drift, and 25% less recoil, 25% more supersonic range, and 25-50% less barrel life.
 
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There was a thread here about 308 vs 6.5 being used as a LE sniper round. Although some are moving to them the general consensus I think was the 308 still being better. Mainly due to the types of rounds used and closer ranges of LE engagements.

From a hunting/shooting perspective I’ve used a lot of both for hunting in the ELDX platform. I’ve been more impressed by the blood trails and overall stopping power of the 308 178 ELDX vs 143 ELDX in the 6.5 and 260’s we use. Most shots inside 500 yards where the 308 tends to hold more knockdown power than the 6.5

The 6.5 benefits come into play at longer ranges. Especially when compared to something like a 168 smk in the 308. The higher BC 6.5 bullets tend to have less drop and handle wind better at longer ranges than the 308. Which is why many times a 6.5 is recommended over a 308 for longer range target shooting.

If shooting a 6.5 I tend to like the 260 due to the extra velocity I can get. If you want bigger yet you can look at 6.5 PRC but then you should compare bigger 30 cals as well

Killed a lot of deer with both. 308 is my choice for hunting. When I get to the ranges the 6.5 starts to perform better I’ll go bigger on the rifle than either the 308 or 6.5

Now to sit back for the show
IMG_2856.gif
 
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KCode said:
Well I'm mad and intrigued at the same time. I'm a die hard 308cal guy and had all intentions of dying with that caliber of old age. But on here you guys kept and kept pushing me towards 6.5 Creedmoor so I at least looked into why I shouldn't do it.

Less recoil, less powder usage, bullets are about $10 cheaper per 100.

Last leg I had to stand on was MIL and LE still use the 308 for sniper usage though. But then I found out SOCOM is wanting to go to 6.5 Creedmoor over 308 due to it being a more effective round. :cautious:

So is a 308cal really just old tech that still gets it done but there are better options out there?

Does the 6.5 Creedmoor really do better at target shooting?

Is the 6.5 Creedmoor really more effective than 308 on 2 legged threats?
Click to expand...
Define your requirements for your weapon system (mission, objectives, definitions for success along the lines of cost, risk and performance /sustainment) then look to industry for solutions that meet those requirements. Consult places like the Hide as well as other SMEs (gunsmiths, shooters you know personally in whichever area you plan on using the rifle such as hunting, PRS, F-class, general target shooting, etc, others already in the hobby, manufacturers of different components, etc) then make a decision based on those requirements.

If you do the above right, you'll never be in the position of indecision (not to mention being 'mad' and 'intrigued' at the same time).
 
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lte82 said:
Not sure if serious… 🧐
Click to expand...

Sorry, was just comparing it to 5.45 and also thinking of the 77gr HPBT SMK also. It seems a match 6.5 would possible act the same.
 
KCode said:
Would the longer thinner 6.5 bullet not attribute to massive tumbling similar to 5.45x39 once it hits tissue? The 308s seem to mainly mushroom.
Click to expand...
We’ve seen more pin hole in/out with less blood vs the heavier 308’s. Also a lot of pin hole in/hit bone and many times not exit. Leaving almost no blood to follow.

As far as killing they both work. The 6.5 would always kill the deer. But tracking between the two always favored the 308 for us

Of course these results vary deer to deer but my experience is this overall
 
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Harman117 said:
Need to look at bullet's Ballistic Coefficient, not weight
Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed it.
I specifically said "better bullet"

Sure if you handicap the .308 by sticking with 40 year old designs you can prove your point
But if you put a similar weight, similar BC bullet into a .308 and drive it nice and fast, things change.
 
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W54/XM-388 said:
Perhaps you missed it.
I specifically said "better bullet"

Sure if you handicap the .308 by sticking with 40 year old designs you can prove your point
But if you put a similar weight, similar BC bullet into a .308 and drive it nice and fast, things change.
Click to expand...
The 169smk is a perfect example...I actually stopped shooting 6.5CM for the time being as the 169 smk in .308 has done everything I have asked of it and don't see the need for a parallel 6.5mm system...At 1000m, the 130 Berger (6.5 CM) barely makes a 1/4 steel plate move (the 140 Berger delivers a bit more energy in this regard) and the report is hard to hear while the 169 SMK smacks the steel, easy to hear the report. Steel plate is singing and swinging.

If going beyond 900-1000m, I'm grabbing the win mag...
 
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W54/XM-388 said:
Perhaps you missed it.
I specifically said "better bullet"

Sure if you handicap the .308 by sticking with 40 year old designs you can prove your point
But if you put a similar weight, similar BC bullet into a .308 and drive it nice and fast, things change.
Click to expand...
Is there an off the shelf 308 140-150 gr 308 bullet that has a similar BC to what’s typically shot out of a 6.5? None come to mind for me, although im sure there are some special solids out there. That can be done with a 6.5 as well though.
 
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I have 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor barrels for both of my AIs. I enjoy shooting both calibers.

Learning to drive the 308 to long distances will teach you a lot about the wind that can be applied when shooting the 6.5 CM at even longer distances.

I have shot factory 308, 175-grain SMK, and the 175-grain OTM from Berger, several times at distances out to 1,000 yards with success.
 
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nn8734 said:
The 169smk is a perfect example...I actually stopped shooting 6.5CM for the time being as the 169 smk in .308 has done everything I have asked of it and don't see the need for a parallel 6.5mm system...At 1000m, the 130 Berger (6.5 CM) barely makes a 1/4 steel plate move (the 140 Berger delivers a bit more energy in this regard) and the report is hard to hear while the 169 SMK smacks the steel, easy to hear the report. Steel plate is singing and swinging.

If going beyond 900-1000m, I'm grabbing the win mag...
Click to expand...

Ok...Say no more. I will be sticking with 308
 
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Supersubes said:
Is there an off the shelf 308 140-150 gr 308 bullet that has a similar BC to what’s typically shot out of a 6.5? None come to mind for me, although im sure there are some special solids out there. That can be done with a 6.5 as well though.
Click to expand...
169 SMK comes close enough for me but individuals' requirements will vary and it may not for someone else when compared to 6.5mm performance. But it's something like an entire mil or more flatter than the 175 smk and much less wind hold at 800m in the same gun (M40A5) for me. Id have to pull my book out to get actual figures but it's much flatter.
 
KCode said:
Ok...Say no more. I will be sticking with 308
Click to expand...
Here's a thread I created a couple years back comparing the 169 and 175 Sierra Matchking loads in my MK11...at 700m, the 169 was .9 flatter than the 175 and even more so at 800-900 meters.

www.snipershide.com

Mk11 Mod 0 Load Development and Testing - 169g Sierra Matchking

Had a chance to load up and test the new 169SMK in my Mk 11 Mod 0. Overall, I like the 308 but found the 175SMK to be lacking consistency beyond 700m (that’s after I factor me as an average shooter out of the equation). I developed a few quick loads using Sierra’s new 169 Matchking and tested...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com

Like mentioned in an earlier post in the thread, gather all the info you can and weight cost, risk vs performance between 308 and 6.5 based on what you're asking of your rifle and that will help you make the best decision for you.
 
nn8734 said:
169 SMK comes close enough for me but individuals' requirements will vary and it may not for someone else when compared to 6.5mm performance. But it's something like an entire mil or more flatter than the 175 smk and much less wind hold at 800m in the same gun (M40A5) for me. Id have to pull my book out to get actual figures but it's much flatter.
Click to expand...
I think the 169 has a 527 g1, so slightly better than the 175. The 140 eld (read cheap bullet) has a .646 g1. These are on different planets for performance, even if the ELD is shot slowly to match the 169/308 velocities.
 
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W54/XM-388 said:
Perhaps you missed it.
I specifically said "better bullet"

Sure if you handicap the .308 by sticking with 40 year old designs you can prove your point
But if you put a similar weight, similar BC bullet into a .308 and drive it nice and fast, things change.
Click to expand...

Similar weight 308 bullets don't have similar BC's so your point is completely invalid. Show me a .30 cal 140gr bullet with a .600+ G1 BC.

Any similar weight 30 cal bullet to a typical target weight 6.5 bullet is going to be falling off hard by mid range and be total shit ballistics in the long range. You've gotta push 185gr+ bullets in 308's to make it not totally suck and even then 6.5 still kicks its ass while doing it with less recoil.
 
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Supersubes said:
I think the 169 has a 527 g1, so slightly better than the 175. The 140 eld (read cheap bullet) has a .646 g1. These are on different planets for performance, even if the ELD is shot slowly to match the 169/308 velocities.
Click to expand...
Yea, the 140 and 147 are on different playing fields ballistically from the 130 and lighter bullets and with the right powder and charge can be safely driven to speeds in the 6.5CM that let you realize that performance.

I have four .308 rifles and obviously don't need that many so thinking to convert one of my R700Ps to 6.5 and shoot the 140-147 bullets as that would help keep round counts from accumulating too fast on my win mag (Mk13 m7).
 
KCode said:
Through what calculator? Assuming I don't have the calculator needed, could you post up the numbers and explain?
Click to expand...
Dont take my word for it. Go to JBM. Enter realistic velocities, pick bullets/bc’s you’d likely shoot.

Here’s berger 185 jugs and berger 153’s at the same muzzle velocity. Weather is my local conditions.


IMG_1296.png

IMG_1299.jpeg
 
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KCode said:
Would the longer thinner 6.5 bullet not attribute to massive tumbling similar to 5.45x39 once it hits tissue? The 308s seem to mainly mushroom.
Click to expand...
Depends on the bullet and expansion velocity not the cartridge and diameter
 
nn8734 said:
Yea, the 140 and 147 are on different playing fields ballistically from the 130 and lighter bullets and with the right powder and charge can be safely driven to speeds in the 6.5CM that let you realize that performance.

I have four .308 rifles and obviously don't need that many so thinking to convert one of my R700Ps to 6.5 and shoot the 140-147 bullets as that would help keep round counts from accumulating too fast on my win mag (Mk13 m7).
Click to expand...
My take is that you dont need the speed if you have the Bc, and it takes an awful mediocre 6.5/140 gr bullet to get a sub .3 G7 these days. The recoil will always be less than the 308 too, which is a bonus.
 
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KCode said:
Through what calculator? Assuming I don't have the calculator needed, could you post up the numbers and explain?
Click to expand...
WOW! You literally want somebody to hold your hand thru the entire process and tell you why something is better than something else? Do a google search and some reading on your own, then come back with actual questions.
 
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mcameron said:
6.5 is pretty much just .308 with slightly better ballistics...

It's not going to be any more lethal

It's not going to 2x your range

It's going to handle wind a little bit better and give you a few hundred yards over .308

The benefit .308 still has is you can walk into any gun shop in the country and find .308 FGMM or Black Hills on the shelf.



Personally I maintain if you are relying on performance at the very tail end of the cartridges range limit, you should probably consider bumping up to a magnum cartridge anyways.
Click to expand...
Welp, better get a .300 NMI then.
 
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Supersubes said:
My take is that you dont need the speed if you have the Bc, and it takes an awful mediocre 6.5/140 gr bullet to get a sub .3 G7 these days. The recoil will always be less than the 308 too, which is a bonus.
Click to expand...
Yep, less recoil means more shooting..Plus with a 140-147 class bullet in these SS barrels (Bartlein, Lilja, etc) you have no problem going to 1200m...If someone's requirement was 800m and in, 308 prob has a compelling argument if paired with the 169 or TMK bullets, assuming the application is general target shooting.

But if wanting to go out to 1200m (same application) regularly, a 140-147 in 6.5CM is the way (1400m, maybe upgun to 6.5 PRC or similar)...I have tons of 6.5 CM supplies from when I had my AXMC proof 6.5CM rifle so will prob put another rifle, perhaps with a gain twist bbl from Bartlein. Then will put it head to head w/my M40A5 and 169SMK to 1200m to see the validated drop delta between the two.
 
Rocketmandb said:
The reasons I have a .308 and not a 6.5 CM:

- I don't have a man bun
- I need a round that gets blown all over the place so I can get my wind practice in
- Everyone should have a .308
Click to expand...
The reason I have many 6.5’s and no 308’s :

I like hitting what Im aiming at.
 
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If you need people to explain to you the benefits of the 6.5CM over a .308 you are not smart enough or a good enough shooter for the difference to matter. Stick with what pepaw runned. He never needed moar than a thurdy thurdy.

There are probably thousands of articles, blogs, videos ect written over the last decade that spell it all out. The sheer ignorance it takes to create a thread like this (when there are already hundreds) is impressive.
 
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