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What does 'Child Porn" smell like?

Maggot

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"
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Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
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    29,165
    Virginia
    This article is somewhat misleading. It really goes to show just how ineffective and greatly abused is the use of drug sniffing dogs. Interesting read and good video at the end. Your rights are being trampled every day by this.
    [h=2]What Does Child Porn Smell Like? DHS Is Training Dogs To Sniff it Out[/h] [h=2]Meet Charlie, a two-year-old dog with "game-changing abilities," according to law-enforcement types.[/h]
    Nick Gillespie|Sep. 13, 2017 5:37 pm
    drug-sniffing-dog856.jpg
    To paraphrase the astronomer Arthur Eddington, not only is law enforcement more insane than we imagine, it's more insane than we can imagine. Indeed, when the feds aren't wasting time failing to decipher the lyrics to "Louie, Louie," they are training dogs to sniff out...child pornography. No kidding:
    "Today we're announcing a new weapon in the war against child victimization, child exploitation," [Delaware County (Pennsylvania) District Attorney Jack] Whelan said. "And the name of that weapon, the name of that special tool, is Charlie."...

    Marlon V. Miller, a special agent in charge of Homeland Security in Philadelphia, said Charlie has "game-changing abilities."

    "As technology advances, devices become smaller and smaller, and criminals are better able to hide the elements of their crime," Miller said.

    That's where Charlie comes in. During her training, the K-9 located a micro-SD card — roughly the size of a fingernail — under a carpet.​
    According to Philly.com, Charlie—a female yellow Labrador retriever—is an "'electronic-detection forensic K-9.' The first of her kind in Pennsylvania and one of fewer than two dozen nationwide, Charlie will be deployed with the Internet Crimes Against Children Pennsylvania Task Force, tasked with sniffing out small hidden electronics, from CD-ROMs to flash drives, in suspected predators' homes."

    The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) paid $9,500 for Charlie, plus another $1,100 in taxpayer-funded training. But if you think the benefits of having a dog that can root out SD cards with porn on them ends there, you'd be wrong. Charlie is also a good friend to the cop, Nat Evans, who handles him: "I've got a pet at home and I've got a buddy that comes with me to and from work," Evans told Philly.com, adding that the dog is "therapeutic" for him too.

    This sort of thing is, in a word, idiotic. And unscientific.

    As Jacob Sullum reported in 2013, dogs trained to sniff out contraband (in most cases, drugs) are wildly inaccurate and often poorly trained at all. Those reports you read about dogs being able to magically sniff out this or that substance are pharmaceutical-grade bunkum. In a 2005 case involving drug-sniffing dogs, writes Sullum,
    [Supreme Court Justice David] Souter said, "the infallible dog…is a creature of legal fiction." Souter cited examples of dogs accepted as reliable by courts that had error rates of up to 38 percent. He added that "dogs in artificial testing situations return false positives anywhere from 12.5 to 60 percent of the time."

    If anything, Souter gave drug-sniffing dogs too much credit. A 2011 Chicago Tribune analysis of data from suburban police departments found that vehicle searches justified by a dog's alert failed to turn up drugs or drug paraphernalia 56 percent of the time. In 1979 six police dogs at two public schools in Highland, Indiana, alerted to 50 students, only 17 of whom possessed contraband (marijuana, drug paraphernalia, and cans of beer), meaning the false positive rate was 66 percent. Looking at the performance of an Illinois state police K-9 team during an 11-month period in 2007 and 2008, Huffington Post reporter Radley Balko found that the dog sniffed 252 vehicles and alerted 136 times, but 74 percent of the searches triggered by those alerts did not find measurable amounts of illegal drugs. Similarly, a 2006 study by the New South Wales Ombudsman in Australia, an independent agency analogous to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, looked at more than 10,000 searches of people triggered by dog alerts and discovered that 74 percent of them found no illegal drugs. More-recent data from New South Wales indicate an even higher error rate: 80 percent in 2011.

    Those numbers look almost respectable compared to the results of a 1984 operation in which Florida state police stopped about 1,330 vehicles at roadblocks and walked dogs around them. If one dog alerted, another was brought in, and vehicles were searched only if both dogs indicated the presence of illegal drugs. That happened 28 times, but those searches yielded just one drug arrest. In other words, even when two dogs both signaled the presence of drugs, they were wrong 96 percent of the time.​
    It turns out that dogs mostly respond to their handlers and routinely infer when they should alert on a car, or a school locker, or a piece of luggage. That didn't stop the Supreme Court in Illinois v. Caballes from ruling "the use of a well-trained narcotics-detecting dog…during a lawful traffic stop generally does not implicate legitimate privacy interests," effectively giving cops an extraordinarily long leash to run around the Fourth Amendment. In 2014, the high court further ruled a police dog's alert is enough to trigger a search and that a defendant would need to prove that a given mutt is particularly bad at its job. If you think holding human cops accountable is tough, it's even more difficult when it comes to K-9s. The only good news on the sniffing-dog front came in 2015, when the Supreme Court ruled that prolonging a routine traffic stop so that police could let a dog wander around a vehicle was unconstitutional.

    But that was then and now is now and we really need "electronic-detection forensic K-9s" because now that pot is being legalized everywhere, well, we don't want to send all these pooches off to the Hotel Terminus for Dogs or something.

    Nick Gillespie is the editor in chief of Reason.com and Reason TV and the co-author, with Matt Welch, of The Declaration of Independ
     
    Hmmm, let me think how i can fool this dog?

    I know! I'll stick the micro SD card inside a packet of ground beef and toss it in the freezer.......

    But wait, what if I don't have time to freeze the meat? Ah, I have this:

    518aa0f5c09b0.preview-620.jpg
     
    So, I suppose the military and DHS are wasting their time and putting people's lives at risk with the explosives dogs as well?

    Edit: I'm referencing the inferences made about the drug dogs, not the SD card dogs. Whether or not they can detect the cards is immaterial. The application is completely impractical, as the post after this points out. SD cards are everywhere, legally.
     
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    Im sure he is trained to smell the ceramic in the transistor or the acid on the circuit board but at any rate
    he's gonna find tons of flash drives going thru the airport and each one will have to be checked which would be time consuming
    so it seems like waste of time to me......
     
    Pretty sure the intent there is to have a dog that can seek out hidden stashes when serving a warrant on some pedarast piece of shit's house.

    Thats it but it just shows how fail able they are. I have no experience with them regarding finding explosives, maybe Bogey will chime in.
     
    I can see advantages. A case I worked is a perfect example. Guy taking photos of his kids using several cameras and SD cards. I got the arrest and he ended up pleading it out rather than risk 400+ year sentence (very bad guy) He admitted to everything but we never recovered the multiple SD cards we know he used. A K9 search of the house MAY have located them or given peace of mind that he disposed of them. (We actually think he may have shipped them out of the country, but will never know)

    A K9 in a public place like an airport would be a waste of time but a private residence would be different.
     
    I can see advantages. A case I worked is a perfect example. Guy taking photos of his kids using several cameras and SD cards. I got the arrest and he ended up pleading it out rather than risk 400+ year sentence (very bad guy) He admitted to everything but we never recovered the multiple SD cards we know he used. A K9 search of the house MAY have located them or given peace of mind that he disposed of them. (We actually think he may have shipped them out of the country, but will never know)

    A K9 in a public place like an airport would be a waste of time but a private residence would be different.

    The idea being that police work will have already resulted in a search warrant. Some common fears of intrusion are, thankfully, still mostly Chicken Little stuff.
     
    I think the dogs are actually capable the problem comes when "background" rises to a level that everything becomes an "alert".

    Who isn't on some sort of prescription these days, what money hasn't been tainted in some way by either actually being used in drug transactions or sitting in a cash register at the 7 Eleven with money used in a transaction? What person doesn't have some "ozone" smelling piece of electronics on his or her person?

    A dog is a valuable asset.

    The handler has to take care in using it responsibly.

    A well trained dog/handler team differentiates between "background" and "bingo".
     
    I totally agree. A lot of this would boil down to a good K9 and a good handler. Best dog in the world can only do so much if the handler is lazy. It takes constant work for both to be sharp.
     
    I find it interesting that if a tool is used by law enforcement it comes into question or is considered prone to error but if that same tool is used by the military or some civil capacity it is a priceless asset.

    Radar to detect speed is a scam yet radar to detect aircraft, shoot down planes or track weather is a godsend.

    Lasers to measure distance is extremely accurate but use it to measure a vehicles speed its bunk.

    A war dog is the best friend of the soldier alerting to the enemy but similar use by law enforcement always gets the wrong guy.

    Dogs sniffing for IEDs good, dogs sniffing for drugs bad

    Dogs locating people in collapsed buildings worthy, dogs sniffing for bodies in a law enforcement search bad.

    Its not perfect but its all valuable and proven.

    If there is an issue question the operator not the tool.
     
    I find it interesting that if a tool is used by law enforcement it comes into question or is considered prone to error but if that same tool is used by the military or some civil capacity it is a priceless asset.

    Radar to detect speed is a scam yet radar to detect aircraft, shoot down planes or track weather is a godsend.

    Lasers to measure distance is extremely accurate but use it to measure a vehicles speed its bunk.

    A war dog is the best friend of the soldier alerting to the enemy but similar use by law enforcement always gets the wrong guy.

    Dogs sniffing for IEDs good, dogs sniffing for drugs bad

    Dogs locating people in collapsed buildings worthy, dogs sniffing for bodies in a law enforcement search bad.

    Its not perfect but its all valuable and proven.

    If there is an issue question the operator not the tool.

    It occurs to me that, in war, over alerting saves lives. In law enforcement, over alerting infringes on citizens rights. (I'm only talking about the drug sniffing vs. bomb sniffing part here. Not the other uses or tech you listed)
     
    As for training a dog to detect electronic media, it's basically like the cell phone dogs in prisons. Within the context of a residential search warrant of a suspected pedophile it's simply another tool.

    What is flawed in the author's "false alert" statistics is this: a detection dog does not respond to the PRESENCE of a substance; rather it responds to the ODOR of said substance. In the same way that your bathroom still smells like shit after you've flushed your turds, the odor remains even if you don't have a pile of shit on the floor.

    Im currently working both a narcotics and an explosives dog for a private firm. My narc dog regularly responds to bookbags in schools. Rarely does that bookbag actually contain drugs, but during follow up investigation those bags have been in the presence of drugs. You don't have to smoke cigarettes for your clothes to smell like smoke after a night at the bar. All that dog is "saying" is that an object/area has the smell of something it was trained to find.
     
    In law enforcement, K9 usage is only under attack because of idiot defense attorneys.

    I'd have to respectfully disagree with you:

    There are Many clear cases of handlers signalling their dog to "alert" to whatever they are claiming the excuse was, to justify an illegal search.
    One of the members here not long ago gave his personal story of just such a case where the locals were trying to find any way to steal his nice new car under color of law.
    (It is quite widespread because the handlers just about never are even reprimanded over it).

    There are also documented cases of handlers purposely letting their dogs savage "suspects" for no good reason.

    Like everything else in the police world, there are a very large body of people doing a dedicated good job, but enough rotten apples to cast a suspicion over the rest in the minds of many (usually because the rotten apples don't get punished as quickly or as harshly as they should (if at all) most of the time).

    The problem here is the idea that is being bantered about by stupid and irresponsible journalists that the dogs "sniff out child porn" which is completely false, all they can tell is if there is an object that contains chemicals commonly used to make data storage devices & circuit boards. But that won't stop some idiots in the legal system from one day saying "Well the dog smelled child porn".

    For awhile I could see it being a help when assisting a warrant to collect all the storage devices in a specific suspect's location based on clear and unambiguous probable cause
    But it could possibly be of dubious value in a house like mine where there is 15 years of generations of storage devices in every possible place that have been long forgotten.
    I would also predict before long there is a market for anti-sniff storage device containers.
     
    I have seen a few fucked up handlers. Never seen a fucked up dog.

    Unfortunately I've seen a good number of both. In most cases though I could fix the dog once the idiot holding the leash was removed from the equation. It's why I refuse to train pet dogs, even when offered staggering amounts of money to fix a problem. That conversation always goes the same way :

    " Can you fix our dog who's doing _____? "

    "Oh I'm sure I could fix the DOG........." and I just let it hang there for them to figure it out

    Fortunately I tend to always know a trainer who's willing to deal with it and fix the problem, get paid, and just understand that the owner/s are going to fuck the dog up again as soon as he/she leaves.
     
    What is flawed in the author's "false alert" statistics is this: a detection dog does not respond to the PRESENCE of a substance; rather it responds to the ODOR of said substance. In the same way that your bathroom still smells like shit after you've flushed your turds, the odor remains even if you don't have a pile of shit on the floor.

    Oh contraire mon ami......

    As I like to inform the next poor bastard going into the head after me is that they are not smelling my shit.....what actually occurs is that during the drop from sphincter to water cover said turd has shed shit molecules that have escaped my ass to seat gasket to become airborne and free ranging.

    This airborne molecule of my actual shit has than been introduced willingly by them into their nostrils as a function of their breathing.

    My shit firmly attaches to their "shit receptor" olfactory nerves and the brain identifies it as "Danger You are in a Room of weaponized Shit!"

    No you are not "smelling" my shit you have actually "inhaled" an actual piece of shit.

    Dogs with their wet noses and vastly superior olfactory nerves are much better at this than us.

    Its actually pretty cruel what we make dogs smell and it really makes you wonder about the entire canine genus when their manner of saying hello is to stick their noses in each others ass.
     
    ya know...if we stopped playing fuck around with these scumbags, the need for alot of this repeat offender shit would be gone.

    you molest a kid? you're fucking done. shoot them in the head on national tv. some crimes, you shouldnt get a second chance. i'm about as big a live and let live guy, constitution loving asshole as you can find.

    common sense would go a long way toward solving a lot of this shit.
     
    I'd have to respectfully disagree with you:

    There are Many clear cases of handlers signalling their dog to "alert" to whatever they are claiming the excuse was, to justify an illegal search.
    One of the members here not long ago gave his personal story of just such a case where the locals were trying to find any way to steal his nice new car under color of law.
    (It is quite widespread because the handlers just about never are even reprimanded over it).

    There are also documented cases of handlers purposely letting their dogs savage "suspects" for no good reason.

    Like everything else in the police world, there are a very large body of people doing a dedicated good job, but enough rotten apples to cast a suspicion over the rest in the minds of many (usually because the rotten apples don't get punished as quickly or as harshly as they should (if at all) most of the time).

    The problem here is the idea that is being bantered about by stupid and irresponsible journalists that the dogs "sniff out child porn" which is completely false, all they can tell is if there is an object that contains chemicals commonly used to make data storage devices & circuit boards. But that won't stop some idiots in the legal system from one day saying "Well the dog smelled child porn".

    For awhile I could see it being a help when assisting a warrant to collect all the storage devices in a specific suspect's location based on clear and unambiguous probable cause
    But it could possibly be of dubious value in a house like mine where there is 15 years of generations of storage devices in every possible place that have been long forgotten.
    I would also predict before long there is a market for anti-sniff storage device containers.

    Well sorted out, W54.

    I was the one who got stopped in Kansas and drug (no pun intended) over the coals because the officer intentionally falsified an alert....just because I had out of state plates and he knew he could get away with it. There are a ton of stories on the internet. Check the Reno Nevada area. Took me quite a while to calm down and not resent all cops...which shows what a few bad individuals can do to teh reputations of all.

    As you and others note, its just a tool, like a pencil. You can write a novel or letter of good will, or you can write evil propaganda or poke someone in the eye. Its up to the operator.
     
    ya know...if we stopped playing fuck around with these scumbags, the need for alot of this repeat offender shit would be gone.

    you molest a kid? you're fucking done. shoot them in the head on national tv. some crimes, you shouldnt get a second chance. i'm about as big a live and let live guy, constitution loving asshole as you can find.

    common sense would go a long way toward solving a lot of this shit.

    Im with you. Im 100% against the death penalty for one simple reason...you cant correct the mistakes and its proven there are many made.

    That said, if I ever came across someone molesting a child, mine or someone else's, there would be only one trial, and that would be for first degree murder with extreme prejudice and I would be the one being tried.
     
    Well sorted out, W54.

    I was the one who got stopped in Kansas and drug (no pun intended) over the coals because the officer intentionally falsified an alert....just because I had out of state plates and he knew he could get away with it. There are a ton of stories on the internet. Check the Reno Nevada area. Took me quite a while to calm down and not resent all cops...which shows what a few bad individuals can do to teh reputations of all.

    As you and others note, its just a tool, like a pencil. You can write a novel or letter of good will, or you can write evil propaganda or poke someone in the eye. Its up to the operator.

    That game isn't worth it. Its so corrosive to society you might as well just go to hot war against the country.

    Unfortunately the dumbing down of America does not bode well for the future.

    Though good kids may become cops they are losing the ability to write and communicate and do any of them get any education regarding the Constitution?

    At current they are learning that free speech is only okay as long as no one disagrees with you, the Founding Fathers only meant muskets, and the 4th Amendment is what ever the people in power want it to be.
     
    Okay, not trying to wade into a "good cops out there and bad cops out there" theme (which there are both good and bad) but my over generalization was directed more at scumbag attorneys and not scumbag cops.

    I had a dickhead defense attorney toss out a theory that I'd fabricate evidence logs to protect my case... While I was on the stand no less and the prosecutor just SAT there like a lump. (Child porn case and the attorney was attacking my evidence). I had the last laugh when the case went Federal!
     
    Oh contraire mon ami......

    As I like to inform the next poor bastard going into the head after me is that they are not smelling my shit.....what actually occurs is that during the drop from sphincter to water cover said turd has shed shit molecules that have escaped my ass to seat gasket to become airborne and free ranging.

    This airborne molecule of my actual shit has than been introduced willingly by them into their nostrils as a function of their breathing.

    My shit firmly attaches to their "shit receptor" olfactory nerves and the brain identifies it as "Danger You are in a Room of weaponized Shit!"

    No you are not "smelling" my shit you have actually "inhaled" an actual piece of shit.

    Dogs with their wet noses and vastly superior olfactory nerves are much better at this than us.

    Its actually pretty cruel what we make dogs smell and it really makes you wonder about the entire canine genus when their manner of saying hello is to stick their noses in each others ass.

    As a biochemist I'm calling shenanigans on the above. While it is undoubtedly true that if one inhaled a piece of shit, that person would smell it, it is not true that the sense of smell requires a solid or liquid piece of anything to enter the nose. By your thesis above, a turd sitting on the ground would not stink until some kid lit a black cat embedded in it and blew ofal up into your nose. You see a turd sitting in the ground, not shedding particulates, still stinks because it is releasing volatile organic compounds. This is also why perfumes, hamburgers, and the city dump have smells. They are all emitting volatile organic compounds; MOLECULES is a gas state that attach to olfactory receptors in your nose. In the case of shit, they tend to be sulfur containing. Bogey is correct that dogs/mice/humans/etc smell these molecular remnants of an object's presence, not the object itself.

    If your defamation is producing aerosolized shit you should probably see a physician.

    Kids are a product of their environment, and so are their possessions. Maybe mom or dad smoke pot. Maybe he was "holding" for a friend last week. Maybe he has a $20 in his bag that was used to snort something.

    If if I put a bag of weed in a backpack and then take it out, that bag will still have a lingering scent of weed. If a dog subsequently alerts to that bag, that is not a false positive. How often does a well trained dog alert to a "clean" item- something devoid of the target scent? That is your false positive rate. How often does a well trained dog not alert to a "dirty" item? That is your false negative rate.

     
    . How often does a well trained dog alert to a "clean" item- something devoid of the target scent? That is your false positive rate. How often does a well trained dog not alert to a "dirty" item? That is your false negative rate.

    Interesting, thanks
     
    As a biochemist I'm calling shenanigans on the above. While it is undoubtedly true that if one inhaled a piece of shit, that person would smell it, it is not true that the sense of smell requires a solid or liquid piece of anything to enter the nose. By your thesis above, a turd sitting on the ground would not stink until some kid lit a black cat embedded in it and blew ofal up into your nose. You see a turd sitting in the ground, not shedding particulates, still stinks because it is releasing volatile organic compounds. This is also why perfumes, hamburgers, and the city dump have smells. They are all emitting volatile organic compounds; MOLECULES is a gas state that attach to olfactory receptors in your nose. In the case of shit, they tend to be sulfur containing. Bogey is correct that dogs/mice/humans/etc smell these molecular remnants of an object's presence, not the object itself.

    If your defamation is producing aerosolized shit you should probably see a physician.

    Kids are a product of their environment, and so are their possessions. Maybe mom or dad smoke pot. Maybe he was "holding" for a friend last week. Maybe he has a $20 in his bag that was used to snort something.

    If if I put a bag of weed in a backpack and then take it out, that bag will still have a lingering scent of weed. If a dog subsequently alerts to that bag, that is not a false positive. How often does a well trained dog alert to a "clean" item- something devoid of the target scent? That is your false positive rate. How often does a well trained dog not alert to a "dirty" item? That is your false negative rate.

    What are the three forms of matter - solid, liquid, gas.

    If shit is sitting on the curb and emits VOCs, the destruction of matter not possible just it's transition into another form of existence such as from solid to gas or through burning to energy, gas and waste particulates, are you not taking shit in its gaseous state into your schnozzle?

    The turning of the turd from its moist fresh state into a desiccated dried link sausage is the result of evaporation of its liquid content as well as the volatilizing of some portion of its organic compounds.

    Until said strunzo is sufficiently dehydrated and rendered safe of its offensive nature than innocent bystanders will be offended by its substance entering into their nasal orifices.
     
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    As a biochemist I'm calling shenanigans on the above. While it is undoubtedly true that if one inhaled a piece of shit, that person would smell it, it is not true that the sense of smell requires a solid or liquid piece of anything to enter the nose. By your thesis above, a turd sitting on the ground would not stink until some kid lit a black cat embedded in it and blew ofal up into your nose. You see a turd sitting in the ground, not shedding particulates, still stinks because it is releasing volatile organic compounds. This is also why perfumes, hamburgers, and the city dump have smells. They are all emitting volatile organic compounds; MOLECULES is a gas state that attach to olfactory receptors in your nose. In the case of shit, they tend to be sulfur containing. Bogey is correct that dogs/mice/humans/etc smell these molecular remnants of an object's presence, not the object itself.

    If your defamation is producing aerosolized shit you should probably see a physician.

    Kids are a product of their environment, and so are their possessions. Maybe mom or dad smoke pot. Maybe he was "holding" for a friend last week. Maybe he has a $20 in his bag that was used to snort something.

    If if I put a bag of weed in a backpack and then take it out, that bag will still have a lingering scent of weed. If a dog subsequently alerts to that bag, that is not a false positive. How often does a well trained dog alert to a "clean" item- something devoid of the target scent? That is your false positive rate. How often does a well trained dog not alert to a "dirty" item? That is your false negative rate.

    Yep, what the smart guy said.

    When we get a positive response with no drugs found the appropriate personnel do a separate investigation and let me know the results so I can better evaluate how my dog is performing. There's no penalty for the kid when he says "yeah, people smoke weed in my house" or "I was around guys smoking weed on the way to school" or whatever. It just verifies the dog's response.

    Yes, you can absolutely get a passive alert dog to give a false final response on purpose. What I see much more often is Handlers who unwittingly induce a false response by their own behavior. This is a handler-training issue and can be easily corrected once identified. False responses are one of the many reasons that I don't teach handlers to rely on a final response. I try to teach them to see the "change of behavior" in their individual dog prior to a final. A final with no c.o.b. is rare. This a,so allows them to read their dog and to further investigate when the dog has shown c.o.b. but no final response. This is common under a few scenarios.

    My my first question to a handler I haven't watched before is "what is your dog's change of behavior" or "where does your dog show its change? (Head, tail, etc)" It's also the same question I ask when someone gives me a dog to work. It's staggering how often I get told what a dog's final response looks like. Pretty much any asshole can walk around with a dog and wait for it to sit down, with no understanding of odor behavior.
     
    The VOCs produced are decomposition products of the turd- as well as those produced from the metabolism of food by your digestive organs and gut flora. Much more metabolism products than decomposition products.

    You forgot plasma and Bose-Einstein condensates, but let's not split hairs. It is a scientific fact that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. But, it's form can be changed. A chemical change is a rearrangement of the molecules of a substance to create a new substance with different properties. Shit is shit and the smell of shit is the olfactory sensory identification of volatile organic molecules present in the shit.

    That new car smell is not your car, but VOCs leaching from your car.

    The above notwithstanding, smelling shit is breathing in molecules that were once inside someone's body and were at some point expelled through their anus. Then again, pretty much everything on earth that is organic is made from molecules and atoms that were expelled through the anus of something...
     
    Then again, pretty much everything on earth that is organic is made from molecules and atoms that were expelled through the anus of something...

    Thats a sobering thought.
     
    The VOCs produced are decomposition products of the turd- as well as those produced from the metabolism of food by your digestive organs and gut flora. Much more metabolism products than decomposition products.

    You forgot plasma and Bose-Einstein condensates, but let's not split hairs. It is a scientific fact that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. But, it's form can be changed. A chemical change is a rearrangement of the molecules of a substance to create a new substance with different properties. Shit is shit and the smell of shit is the olfactory sensory identification of volatile organic molecules present in the shit.

    That new car smell is not your car, but VOCs leaching from your car.

    The above notwithstanding, smelling shit is breathing in molecules that were once inside someone's body and were at some point expelled through their anus. Then again, pretty much everything on earth that is organic is made from molecules and atoms that were expelled through the anus of something...

    Here is a scientific examination of this subject. It is the last word......


    https://youtu.be/eY7ZX6ngOSs
     
    I knew I shouldn't have used the turd analogy. I usually use popcorn or blueberry muffins to illustrate the powe're of odor versus object.

    carry on with the discussion of scat
     
    Ever seen buzzards soaring around so high they look like gnats? Molecules are molecules, regardless of the distance.
    People tend to relate their own senses to those of animals. I wish just once I could see what a hawk sees and smell what a dog smells, although the latter would likely be a curse in Walmart.
     
    Interesting article. I do have a bit of a problem with the following...300 yds?

    Angle said he's seen dogs identify very small targets from very far distances. "I've seen them detect two ounces of explosives from more than 300 yards away," he said.

    that sounds like BS.

    Sounds like BS but a dogs sense of smell is something we can not imagine.

    Just look at the design.

    That wet nose becomes a little solvent tray that breaks down air and allows the dog to sense its individual parts.

    Than the area of the nasal pad is so much larger than ours with so many more receptors.

    Nature is amazing.

    Just think what nature does to a pregnant wife and her sense of smell.

    Evolution,,,,,its for real.
     
    Ever seen buzzards soaring around so high they look like gnats? Molecules are molecules, regardless of the distance.
    People tend to relate their own senses to those of animals. I wish just once I could see what a hawk sees and smell what a dog smells, although the latter would likely be a curse in Walmart.

    True, but the buzzards are cueing to a large dead body and the odor is rising. With the dog at 300 yds it would have to be a drift of the smell, and its difficult to believe that in any but a lab type setting the smell from 2 oz would stay in tact that far.

    It would be nice to see what a hawk sees.
     
    Directly on target with dogs and smell... several years ago I was with a buddy when he was doing some retriever training with his lab. He was putting a few drops of duck scent (available at your local hunting/sporting goods retailer) on a canvas retriever bumper and launching it into the air. The first retrieve was spot on. The dog ran straight and true. But, subsequent retrieves were problematic. Those few drops of scene "contaminated" the landing area and confused the dog. You could see it as he ran- straight and true to the bumper (these were marked retrieves so he saw them land) then wham, he gets pole-axed by the remnant scent and goes of 90 degrees in search of something not there.
     
    True, but the buzzards are cueing to a large dead body and the odor is rising. With the dog at 300 yds it would have to be a drift of the smell, and its difficult to believe that in any but a lab type setting the smell from 2 oz would stay in tact that far.

    It would be nice to see what a hawk sees.

    Maybe a large dead body... they don't only eat dead deer and elk. Possums, raccoons, armadillos, squirrels - all small animals I've seen cultures eating on the side of the road. And, vultures can smell them from a mile away. But, they are combining sight, smell, and hearing (sounds of other feeding predators) to identify carrion.

    And, and, the bodies they are finding do not need to be in sight. Covered by trees, bushes, in tall grass, animals don't only die in the middle of a road. I've also heard stories (I'm unsure of the veracity) of houses containing dead bodies being identified by the presence of vultures...

    Interestingly, new world cultures are mostly unique in the bird world, as most birds do not have an appreciable sense of smell.
     
    Interesting article. I do have a bit of a problem with the following...300 yds?

    Angle said he's seen dogs identify very small targets from very far distances. "I've seen them detect two ounces of explosives from more than 300 yards away," he said.

    that sounds like BS.

    That's because you are making judgements based on an inadequate understanding of the true capability. At Auburn, we (not me personally) actually pioneered techniques for evaluating the sense of smell in dogs, quantifying them into useable numbers. Like people, every dog is different. They don't all have the same capabilities, and knowing which ones are the right ones to sink all your training dollars into is a very useful fact for military, LE, SAR, etc. Two ounces of explosives @ 300 yards under favorable conditions is not even that impressive for the top performers. We've seen them track planted birds at field trials that got up and flew across a field before the dog was released, and then seen the dog follow the flight path a few minutes later, tracking their flight by smell and finding them where they landed (calm wind conditions). This was documented in some of the initial research, and presented to us students in neurophysiology class by the instructor who happened to be the lead researcher on the project.

    So, given your own admissions for recreational use, is it hard to believe they hit on your car even if you weren't in possession at that moment? I don't mean that in an accusatory manner, as you've discussed it yourself here before. And perhaps I'm way off base, in which case I will apologize in advance, but it is the obvious, logical question that comes to mind. Perhaps they hit accurately after all, only after the fact?

    That's not to say drug dogs are infallible by any means. I have a friend who was an enlisted man in the USAF in the 70s/80s, as a musician, actually. He was living on Base at Maxwell. He left Base in his van and while he was out smoked some dope. When he returned home he was horrified to see they were doing random drug searches with two dogs at the gate on everyone. He had actual residue still in the van. He was in line and couldn't turn around. He knew he was hammered. They made him open the back door to the van and the two dogs immediately went straight for...his female poodle, who he had taken along for the ride and was in full-blown heat. The handlers dragged the dogs back out of the van and told him to get her out of there as fast as possible. He drove off without any detection whatsoever, and it was probably the last time he ever smoked.
     
    That's because you are making judgements based on an inadequate understanding of the true capability. At Auburn, we (not me personally) actually pioneered techniques for evaluating the sense of smell in dogs, quantifying them into useable numbers. Like people, every dog is different. They don't all have the same capabilities, and knowing which ones are the right ones to sink all your training dollars into is a very useful fact for military, LE, SAR, etc. Two ounces of explosives @ 300 yards under favorable conditions is not even that impressive for the top performers. We've seen them track planted birds at field trials that got up and flew across a field before the dog was released, and then seen the dog follow the flight path a few minutes later, tracking their flight by smell and finding them where they landed (calm wind conditions). This was documented in some of the initial research, and presented to us students in neurophysiology class by the instructor who happened to be the lead researcher on the project.

    So, given your own admissions for recreational use, is it hard to believe they hit on your car even if you weren't in possession at that moment? I don't mean that in an accusatory manner, as you've discussed it yourself here before. And perhaps I'm way off base, in which case I will apologize in advance, but it is the obvious, logical question that comes to mind. Perhaps they hit accurately after all, only after the fact?

    That's not to say drug dogs are infallible by any means. I have a friend who was an enlisted man in the USAF in the 70s/80s, as a musician, actually. He was living on Base at Maxwell. He left Base in his van and while he was out smoked some dope. When he returned home he was horrified to see they were doing random drug searches with two dogs at the gate on everyone. He had actual residue still in the van. He was in line and couldn't turn around. He knew he was hammered. They made him open the back door to the van and the two dogs immediately went straight for...his female poodle, who he had taken along for the ride and was in full-blown heat. The handlers dragged the dogs back out of the van and told him to get her out of there as fast as possible. He drove off without any detection whatsoever, and it was probably the last time he ever smoked.

    Very innteresting first paragraph. Amazing what they can do. thanks

    Good story on your buddy.

    No, their were not and had not been drugs in the car. That is pretty standard practice in some western states. Kansas is bad about it because the next stop is COLORADO where its now legal. They are more interested in cars going west because they might contain $$$ they can confiscate, whereas east bound only have dope they have to burn. Here are a couple of articles about it.
    [h=3]A Driver Had $50,000 Seized By A Nevada Cop, But Wasn't Charged ...[/h] https://www.forbes.com/.../a-driver-had-50000-seized-by-a-nevada-cop-but-wasnt-ch...



    Then there's the charming Lee Dove
    [h=3]States seize cash, property from motorists - CNN - CNN.com[/h] www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/us/asset-seizures/index.html
    Jan 23, 2015 - The seizure is just one of thousands of highway stops that state and local ... In a smallNevada county two hours driving time east of Reno, ...

     
    Child porn. Damn.....

    Dead Right Now, just isn't fast enough.

    Let me tell ya'll something gents, (and ladies).... you never know just how close you come to it, and don't even know it.

    I had a friend that I'd known for decades, call me up an tell me that his son is moving back to the province, and his wife and kids are following shortly thereafter. He's coming here to get a job, and look for a place for them to settle. He had 5 kids, aged 3 to 11. (the son, not my friend)

    But seeing as my friends house, was full at the moment, he asked if his son could stay here with us, for a few weeks, just to help things settle and get going before the rest of the family arrived. Me, being who I am, and My Lady, being who she is, gladly opened our door and welcomed the young lad in. He's around 30 years of age. And let me tell you, when that young man came to us, he had some stories to say. He'd had quite the interesting time, living in that other province. What with all of one thing, or another. But he sure was also, a little 'off''. Neither myself or My Lady could quite put our finger on it, or figure out what it was, exactly.

    Then, I won't deny that a line got crossed one too many times, (very short limits here) and it was time for the young lad to move on. His dad came and picked him up, and took him to the Salvation Army. A short while later, the young lad's family came to the city, and things 'went on their merry way'.

    Until the following January, where my friend was informed that his son was arrested, for child porn. Of His Own Children.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And others, obviously.

    The "young man" was caught by a sting operation being led by a police department in another country.

    Ya'll have NO IDEA how much of a shock it is, to find out that "this" was living right under our roof. I'm only glad that I'm a computer idiot, and when he asked if he could get the password for our wifi router thingy, I didn't know where to look for it. So I wasn't able to let him use our internet. THANK GOD.

    He's been in prison for some time now, and will be for many years yet. The kids are still in counseling, the mother is obstinate and in denial, and has monitored visitation. And 'he' shall forever never be named again.

    And it's taken a while for me to even share this... can't you tell? So I will end with "yeah, you never know what is hiding, where"....
     
    And on a different note, regarding scent and distance... remember gents that the scientists say that a shark can smell a drop of blood IN THE OCEAN from a mile away. Who are we, really, to say that it is impossible. Do you know what you don't know? I do.
     
    In law enforcement, K9 usage is only under attack because of idiot defense attorneys.

    No, its because of handlers that use them to gain probable cause to search, whether the dog alerts or not. It is because there are police departments that forced states and municipalities to make laws because, they were holding people at every traffic stop for the dog to come sniff around their car. If there is no probable cause to search, search, if not move along. So no, it is because of criminal handlers as well.
     
    Sean, I know the creepy feeling that you get when even thinking about this. I worked pretty closely for 5 years with a young engineer who was married and had two small girls. He left relatively suddenly back in 1995 to move out of state. He was a sharp engineer and slightly odd, but so are a lot of people.

    Flash forward to 2015, when a work coworker who had also worked with us forwarded a newspaper article to me. This guy had been arrested, apparently for the third time for child molestation. He had left his promising engineering career to become a sports coach and phys ed teacher at an elementary school. The story is much more involved and detailed than that, as apparently this guy had been moving every few years to stay ahead of discovery/arrest.

    Now, it just creeps me out and angers me every time I think of him. There is this deep down disgusting feeling in the gut.

    I don't know, nor do I wish to know, what sickness drives them.
     
    No, its because of handlers that use them to gain probable cause to search, whether the dog alerts or not. It is because there are police departments that forced states and municipalities to make laws because, they were holding people at every traffic stop for the dog to come sniff around their car. If there is no probable cause to search, search, if not move along. So no, it is because of criminal handlers as well.

    But there lies the root of my point. Defense attorneys make it seem as if EVERY K9 usage and stop is illegal.

    I'm not getting into bad cops or bad usage. Yes it happens but not to the extent attorneys make it appear.
     
    But there lies the root of my point. Defense attorneys make it seem as if EVERY K9 usage and stop is illegal.

    I'm not getting into bad cops or bad usage. Yes it happens but not to the extent attorneys make it appear.

    There is no ",root of your point," in what I said, you simply stated your opinion. Any illegal use is too much in my opinion. Prosecutors and defense attorneys play the same games. One would say its less credible than it is, one would say its more. I don't trust either of them because they don't care about justice, they only care about winning. That is why we have a system where 12 people scrutinize their B.S.

    Now a dog that would chew the genitals off child molesters, I could get behind that. It could be done for dramatic effect after they were dead already.