What does this group tell you?

[Cranedaddy]

I'm looking for some experienced shooters advice here. I'm having trouble getting consistent shots and I can't figure out exactly what is causing it although I'm about 99% sure it's me but I just don't know what I'm doing wrong.

I shot this group at 200 yards the other day and no matter what I cannot get a good 5 shot group. There is ALWAYS one or two flyers. This group was the first five shots fired through the rifle in about a week so the barrel was not warmed up when I started. I was firing from the prone position off my bi-pod deployed in the dirt with a rifle rest bag under the rear of the rifle. Wind was 3-5 mph coming straight from my 6.

200 Yards

The three really close holes were the first 3 rounds fired. I shot these three rounds somewhat quick, maybe 15-25 seconds apart and then I had to take a break. My neck was killing me and my eye was starting to bother me like it was hard to focus and it was starting to tear up so, I had a smoke and relaxed for a few minutes then came back for shot number 4 which hit just about 3/8 of a inch high and a little right of the first three shots but my neck and eye were really bothering me after just taking the 4th shot so I took another brake. Up to this point the group is less that .6 MOA

I don't think I stopped quite as long as I did between shot 3 and 4 but it was still a minute or two. By shot 5 I was so tense, sore, and my eye was still stressed out I still took the shot and it hit almost 2 inches high I've been trying my best to get a good sight picture and a consistent cheek wield along with the right posture and it seems to work until I start to get uncomfortable.

I'm thinking my problem is inconsistent cheek wield causing paralax error but I am not 100% sure. Have any of you guys been like this and if so what did you do to fix it? Or do you guys have any other suggestions? I'm not to good to take advice!

The rifle: GII SASS
SWFA SS 3-15X42 FFP
ADM Recon QD mount
Shooting Hornady 168gr BTHP Match ammo

 

[tsavo303]

does it always string up?

 

[Cranedaddy]

No that's not normal. After this group I shot another 5 shot group that was about .85-.9 moa but they weren't nearly as concentrated as this group.

 

[Cdiver0109]

I would have to suggest that you are not building a proper consistent position. Shots 1-3 appear to be a nice solid group but as you stated you broke position on each of the final two shots. With the vertical stringing I'd think that either the load on the bipod or your cheek weld has changed after breaking your position for the final two shots. I'm by know means an expert, as I myself am still working on these very fundamentals. I'm sure one of our more esteemed members can chime in and help you out more.

 

[VJJPunisher]

it tells me that eddie1979 has some mentoring to do

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

As was earlier said, you need a mentor or highly skilled coach to observe your shooting executions. The only thing for sure is that hits show where the barrel was pointed. Without a coach, you will need to study the topic of shooter/target analysis to be able to analyze by grouping assessment and call/strike corollary. Assessing your group by itself, which is the only thing that can be done here, suggests a multitude of errors. This means you do not know what is important to good shooting; and, right now, you are likely shooting using misappropriated knowledge, skills and techniques which are inadequate or just plain wrong. My advice, take a basic marksmanship course.

 

[sib1948]

If parallex is adjusted correctly, I wouldn't expect that be the problem. I suspect it's your prone positioning and tension on your rifle from your neck and eye issues. A good coach for a lesson or two and then practice. Also, if prone a big issue, try a few bench rounds and see what your groups do. Should not be nearly as hard on your neck or eye.

 

[Erud]

It's almost certainly you. It's going to be pretty tough to get up twice in the middle of shooting a 5-shot group and still settle back into a proper position, especially for a newer shooter. NPA is almost always the biggest problem an inexperienced shooter will have. If you are shooting and you do not know if your NPA is good, it isn't good. It's also extremely important to be able to call where each shot broke before you see where it actually ended up. If you don't know where you shot it, there's no way to know if it did what it was supposed to do or not.

I'm sure that Sterling Shooter will be along shortly to make this sound really technical by calling it the "call/strike corollary" and tell you stories about "living on the highest plateaus" of long range marksmanship, but the basic gist of it is this:

1. Make sure the rifle is pointed in the right direction, without muscling it
2. Know where your sights were pointed when the round fired

if you always do those 2 things, shooting is pretty easy.

Good luck

 

[Erud]

OP,

As was earlier said, you need a mentor or highly skilled coach to observe your shooting executions. The only thing for sure is that hits show where the barrel was pointed. Without a coach, you will need to study the topic of shooter/target analysis to be able to analyze by grouping assessment and call/strike corollary. Assessing your group by itself, which is the only thing that can be done here, suggests a multitude of errors. This means you do not know what is important to good shooting; and, right now, you are likely shooting using misappropriated knowledge, skills and techniques which are inadequate or just plain wrong. My advice, take a basic marksmanship course.

Ha, he did it while I was typing!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Read the NPOA for Dummies thread in this section. It will give a glimpse for what's important after you master sight alignment and trigger control.

 

[kraigWY]

Just guessing, without watching you shoot, I believe you are muscling the rifle to get the sights on target. As the hammer falls, you fall back into a relax state, causing your groups to string up and right.

That would be my first guess, just looking at the group and nothing else.

As others indicated, you need a good coach to watch you shoot to determine the error and how to fix it.

 

[Drifter™]

The three really close holes were the first 3 rounds fired. I shot these three rounds somewhat quick, maybe 15-25 seconds apart and then I had to take a break.

I don't think I stopped quite as long as I did between shot 3 and 4 but it was still a minute or two.

The rifle: GII SASS

Is it possible that a cartridge sitting longer in a hot semi-auto chamber heated the powder, thus affecting velocity and POI (versus rounds that were in the chamber only a few seconds)?

 

[M40_A1]

What does this group tell you?

It tells me you need to quit smoking.

 

[pmclaine]

Why so much discomfort while in position? Do you have some lingering injury or disability?

I can get pretty sleepy comfortable behind my rifle especially bagged and on a bipod. With a sling less so but 5 shots in easy.

If its that stressful there must be too much muscle engaged.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

i'd take it for more of being "I don't think I stopped quite as long as I did between shot 3 and 4 but it was still a minute or two. By shot 5 I was so tense, sore, and my eye was still stressed out I still took the shot and it hit almost 2 inches high. I've been trying my best to get a good sight picture and a consistent cheek wield along with the right posture and it seems to work until I start to get uncomfortable." than anything else.

decent equipment & ammo, and only 200Y.

shoot a group from the bench from a more "comfortable" position, then do 5 prone and compare .

 

[bogeybrown]

From your description of neck pain and eye strain, it sounds as though you may be getting too low in prone. By that I mean that you're trying to get yourself as low to the ground as possible in a prone position then trying to get the rifle to fit that position. This will also usually cause some stock-weld issues where the rifle isn't sitting properly in your shoulder pocket, but rather way up high or some other variant. THIS causes wonky recoil and bipod hop.

Is your rifle hopping on the bipod on recoil? Are you able to stay relatively on target through the scope all the way through recoil? Are you following through on the trigger and sights? Are you breaking cheek-weld to work the bolt?

Try setting up your rifle on the bipod/rear bag so that it's already on target before you even get behind it. You can crouch down and look through the scope to arrange it so that it's already lined up. THEN lay down directly behind it without messing with it and simply tuck it into your shoulder. Ensure that your position is "high" enough to allow you to look through the scope without straining your neck.

I'm not going to go through the whole NPOA drill because as someone referenced it's a sticky, but without NPOA you're spinning your wheels on groups. I've played around with it and done it wrong on purpose and found that I can be pretty ACCURATE without NPOA, but I cannot be PRECISE without it. In the exercise you presented you're striving for precision, so repeatability is the key.

Oh, and out of respect to Sterling, I'll go ahead and tell you that you're using your equipment as a substitute for the fundamentals, since for some reason he omitted it this time.

BTW, the reason I know about the neck strain, is I was doing the same damn thing myself until I broke everything down objectively and realized that I was moving the rifle to my body instead of my body to the rifle.

 

[Cranedaddy]

Wow thank you all for the honest replies.

Is it possible that a cartridge sitting longer in a hot semi-auto chamber heated the powder, thus affecting velocity and POI (versus rounds that were in the chamber only a few seconds)?

It won't make that much difference at 200 yards. I've chrono'd my load at 80 degrees and 40 degrees. There was about 12 fps difference.

It tells me you need to quit smoking.

You are absolutely right! I just can't pick a day and today never seems to be a good day to start.

From your description of neck pain and eye strain, it sounds as though you may be getting too low in prone. By that I mean that you're trying to get yourself as low to the ground as possible in a prone position then trying to get the rifle to fit that position. This will also usually cause some stock-weld issues where the rifle isn't sitting properly in your shoulder pocket, but rather way up high or some other variant. THIS causes wonky recoil and bipod hop.

Is your rifle hopping on the bipod on recoil? Are you able to stay relatively on target through the scope all the way through recoil? Are you following through on the trigger and sights? Are you breaking cheek-weld to work the bolt?

Try setting up your rifle on the bipod/rear bag so that it's already on target before you even get behind it. You can crouch down and look through the scope to arrange it so that it's already lined up. THEN lay down directly behind it without messing with it and simply tuck it into your shoulder. Ensure that your position is "high" enough to allow you to look through the scope without straining your neck.

I'm not going to go through the whole NPOA drill because as someone referenced it's a sticky, but without NPOA you're spinning your wheels on groups. I've played around with it and done it wrong on purpose and found that I can be pretty ACCURATE without NPOA, but I cannot be PRECISE without it. In the exercise you presented you're striving for precision, so repeatability is the key.

Oh, and out of respect to Sterling, I'll go ahead and tell you that you're using your equipment as a substitute for the fundamentals, since for some reason he omitted it this time.

BTW, the reason I know about the neck strain, is I was doing the same damn thing myself until I broke everything down objectively and realized that I was moving the rifle to my body instead of my body to the rifle.

You may be right on being to low in prone. Don't know why I didn't think of that. Normally when I'm shooting the bottom of the stock is about 3 inches off the ground.

No the rifle is not hoping off the ground (at least not that I have noticed, I'll pay more attention to that). If anything it is digging deeper in. After recoil the gun is normally close to back on target, maybe 2-3 mils off at most. I am following through with the trigger, I usually don't let up for it to reset until I am getting close to fire the next round. The rifle is a semi auto. The only time I have to mess with the bolt is when I release it for the first round and this normally throws off the rifles normal point of aim slightly.

I always set the rifle up for a natural point of aim before I get behind it. When I do get behind the rifle I take a few steps back, get square with it then get down on both knees, lean forward to the prone position and scoot my body straight forward (only takes 1 scoot) into the rifle stock.

I wouldn't quite say I'm using my equipment as a substitute for the fundamentals, more like eliminating as many problems as possible and I think the only problem left is me!

BTW, the reason I know about the neck strain, is I was doing the same damn thing myself until I broke everything down objectively and realized that I was moving the rifle to my body instead of my body to the rifle.

This is kind of what I'm trying to do now. Ammo is to expensive and I think I'm still new enough to this sport that it's not to late to do it right, just don't want to learn any bad habits.

 

[bogeybrown]

Sorry, I missed that you were shooting a gasser. They can obviously introduce a new dynamic, in that shooter input comes more into play. It sounds as though (based on lack of bipod hop) that you're fairly square behind the rifle, so I'd say start with your current position and just raise up a bit higher at your shoulders (leave your forearms where they are relative to the rifle, just raise your head and shoulders up a bit higher). That obviously may require adjusting the bipod a bit higher along with your rear bag but I think you'll find it's more comfortable for your neck/eyes.

If your bipod is "digging in" it may also be worth some time to experiment with bi-pod load during dri-fire to find a load that you can repeat. This is just an extension of your position-building, where you address the rifle the same way each time, which extends into the same load on the bipod from shot to shot. Having been a machinegunner, I started out with that type of load on my bipod until I realized that I was "over" loading.

I was being completely insincere about "using your equipment as a substitute for the fundamentals" etc. If you search for any of Sterling's previous posts you'll get the reference in the same way that [MENTION=5670]Erud[/MENTION] referred to.

I'm in no way "there" yet with my shooting either. Being overseas for years at a time obviously makes it insanely difficult to practice. In answer to that I've been forced to become a much more serious student of the fundamentals and intricacies, so that when I get those blessed few days a year behind a rifle I'm doing a ton of analysis of what I'm doing right and wrong instead of "just shooting for fun". I've been amazed at some of the things I've caught and corrected.

Best of luck to you bro, those first 3 shots show that you're doing it right. It's just a matter of nailing down the variable once you break position. Obviously breaking position is an enormous variable in itself. BTW, today is NOT my day to quit smoking either.

 

[Drifter™]

It won't make that much difference at 200 yards. I've chrono'd my load at 80 degrees and 40 degrees. There was about 12 fps difference.

I would think the chamber is much hotter than 80-degrees after firing 3 shots in ~45 seconds, and the powder in the next cartridge would be heated accordingly if left in the chamber for a couple of minutes before being fired.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Until you know how to do it, it is doubtful that you could discern the effect of inconsistent cadence heating ammunition in the chamber to dissimilar temperatures between rounds. Make no mistake it will effect your group as well as any other thing changing the condition of your barrel; but, unless you have a bad barrel you should still be able to produce a group in the MOA arena with match grade ammo. If you want to learn how to measure the effect of shooting from a cold clean bore to a warm fouled bore just experiment. When I shoot in LR competitions I will foul the bore a day before the match and then on match day I will shoot eight rounds before going for record. While shooting for record, if prevailing winds allow, I will attempt a cadence which will get 20 rounds out in about 10 minutes. If I am delayed I will eject the chambered round for another as I don't want to tempt an elevation error. BTW, the USAMU has a YouTube video on how to measure cold bore effect.

One more thing, I surmised that you wanted an objective appraisal of your performance. Although some alluded that there is nothing wrong with your shooting, since you could do better there is room for improvement. Improvement will only come by perfecting the position. Before you can perfect it you first need to know what is important so as to develop proper muscle memory from the start instead of creating a bad habit from utilizing bad instruction that will undermine the results.

 

[Cranedaddy]

Thank you guys. I forgot to mention in my earlier post I think I have enlisted the help of my boss at work. He has much more shooting experience than I do and everything he has told me about precision shooting has turned out to be true no matter how crazy it sounded to me at the time.

Sterling Shooter, I'll try your little tip out and chamber a new round if there is a longer gap in between shots.

 

[TacShotManticore]

Practice BRASS, religiously, use target ammo (cheaper), if your fundamental is light on practice, the best round out there won't make you better. Mount your scope on a cheaper frame, first, Bushmaster heavy barrel, practice BRASS with at least 2500 rounds


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[blurry6]

The first step is admitting you need help,... The fact that you can't even pull-off five shots tells me you need to seriously reconsider your setup i.e. eye relief, length of pull, cheek weld,...etc. You can NEVER get the perfect setup for ALL positions: standing, kneeling, sitting, prone,...etc., but you can find the right setup for your "go-to" position and set up your rifle for that. You should devote some serious time to adjusting your rifles length-of-pull, eye relief, and cheek weld to be the best combo that will allow you to go from position to position without any major adjustments in any one position, but still grounded in your "go-to" position i.e prone. this will take some time, but it's worth it.

Ry

 

[Wiljan Hennink]

I found this card. Maybe it could help annalising your shotgroup

 

[Cranedaddy]

So.. I tried raising the rifle up and wow! What a difference! My neck and eye weren't bothering me at all but the groups didn't improve very much so I decided to double check my equipment. My scope rings weren't loose but they weren't tight either. I could see a ring around the ball for the turrets where it has slid about 1/8th of a inch forward and was obviously still moving slightly. I have pictures of when I first installed the scope and it has definitely moved between then and now. I re lock tighted the screws and torqued them down to 25 inch pounds. As soon as I get a chance I'll head back to the range and see what happens.

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

"My neck was killing me". There's your problem brotha! You need to get into a comfortable shooting position, check your natural point of aim too. Don't worry, it's not an AWFUL group. We're all always learning more about shooting


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[tsonda]

good thread, I'm headed straight to the NPOA for Dummies.