F T/R Competition What group sizes do I need to hold to be competitive?

[diderr]

I just got my f/tr / tactical build back two weeks ago and am working on my handloads. I'm using 155 hybrid target bergers, lapua brass, and varget. I'm getting them going around 2920. My 100 yard group during my seating depth test grouped 0.175". I shot two groups at 600 yards today and one was 4.53" CTC in heavy mirage, no wind; Center, 1.5" low of the X. I think my main problem now is im using my 3-15 Premier, but I'm going to compete with it.

 

[gstaylorg]

Unfortunately, the best answer is small enough to win under the specific conditions that match. If you can shoot Master to High Master scores at 600 yd (579-588 and above) in no wind conditions, unless you have very good wind-reading skills, chances are good your score will drop to Expert or even lower if shooting in rapidly switching 10 mph wind. Ideally, you'd like to keep your vertical spread to half a minute or less at 600 in favorable low wind conditions. At 1000 yd, virtually no one is shooting under 1 MOA as to the best of my knowledge, only one person has shot a "200" in a registered match at that distance in F-T/R. If the top shooters aren't shooting 200s, by definition they're shooting greater than MOA, if that gives you any ideas about group sizes at that distance.

As far as your scope, 15X would be considered extremely low mag for that distance by most F-Class shooters. It's far more common to see 32-42X, or even higher on some of the newer March and NF competition scopes. Generally, shooters will use the max mag they have unless mirage is sufficiently strong that it forces them to dial down so they can see the scoring rings. It doesn't matter if your rifle is capable of printing teeny tiny groups if you can't clearly see where you're aiming. Similarly, most F-Class shooters use 0.125 MOA turrets, rather than 0.25 MOA or 0.1 mil, due to the finer adjustment potential. Bottom line is, what group size you can shoot at 100 yd, how high the scope mag is, or how small the turrets adjustments are, you'll never really know how competitive you'll be until you actually get out and compete. Look at it this way; the worst that can happen is you come in last. So what? Have fun and learn something; you'll improve as you compete more. Going into my first competition, my intention was to win, and my expectation was to come in dead last. I figured, anywhere in between and I'm GTG, right? Go out and do the best you can and enjoy yourself without getting to concerned about how competitive you'll be. I guarantee you'll get better as you compete more. Good luck with it!

 

[proneshooter]

The X ring is .5 MOA and the ten ring is 1 MOA.

Your rifle is accurate enough, leave it and your loads alone. The question now becomes how good are you?

 

[Aimsmall55]

In my limited experience shooting ftr, I learned a bunch. The two most important were 1) wind reading. 2) MORE experience. Equipment used in 99% of ftr shooters is 1/4 moa rifles. But learning how to read the wind flags ... Mirage ... Ect was the real challenge that separated the men from the boys. The more you shoot the better you get. So don't get discouraged. Good luck and don't sweat it if you have a bad relay. Just learn learn learn.

 

[308Larry]

I recently started competing at my gun club. The folks I compete with are scoring anywhere from 545 to 598 at 600 yds. I have been using a 1 MOA system shooting around 560, but I never know if the errors are me (most likely), my reloads, or my weapon system. So I decided to look for a sub 1/2 MOA system and take the weapon out of the equation. I came across the VENOM Copperhead 308. Anyone know about these $4,000 weapons or the company?

 

[XTR]

F class scores are all about what the wind condition is that weekend.

A couple of weeks ago we had a long range regional here in Oak Ridge, we 18 F-TR shooters including the current F-TR national Champion and 3 other members of the US F-TR team shooting. Ronnie Ralston won in F-TR with a 954-19. That's an average of less than 191 for 5 matches. That's what the wind can do to the best out there. When there is no wind everyone scores high. It isn't that hard to shoot off of a bipod with a rear bag in a no wind condition.

Get out there are 600 yds with a five to seven mile per hr wind fishtailing from 7 o'clock to 4 o'clock and see where the scores go. *What is that line from "Love in an elevator"*

 

[XTR]

I recently started competing at my gun club. The folks I compete with are scoring anywhere from 545 to 598 at 600 yds. I have been using a 1 MOA system shooting around 560, but I never know if the errors are me (most likely), my reloads, or my weapon system. So I decided to look for a sub 1/2 MOA system and take the weapon out of the equation. I came across the VENOM Copperhead 308. Anyone know about these $4,000 weapons or the company?

Most factory rifles can be made to shoot sub MOA with the right loads and some minor work on the stock and bedding. Getting below .5 can be a little harder with a factory barrel, but I've seen it in many cases. If you don't know why you are losing points then I'm pretty sure that's one of your problems. (you don't know)

Load testing, are you loads holding vertical, that's what you control with the rifle and the load. If you're getting .5s vertical you are fine. You can also lose a lot of vertical points with poor rear bag technique or an inconsistent hold, horizontal you can put in there with cheek, trigger pull, or inconsistent hold. Then you get into reloads and what you load will actually do. My gunsmith once told me he likes making rifles for me. He said the best way to look like you don't know what you are doing as a gunsmith is to give a $4000 rifle to a guy who can't understand why it won't shoot sub MOA with surplus Romanian ammo.

You should really do some research before you jump on something like that Venom. If you want to compete in F class get an F class rig. If you are going to compete in tactical comps get a good tactical rig, and if you are just going to participate in either or then get what ever you want, but to really be competitive you need the right tool for the right job and F-TR is a pure target discipline and has nothing to do with tactical shooting. I know guys who do tactical comps who shoot F class for the long range practice, but TR is for Target Rifle, not Tactical Rifle.

 

[TroyMN]

My SPS tact can shoot .6 MOA 5 shot groups. However many days I find a 1 MOA grouping at 100yards. So basically OK stock barrel performance. The F-Class event I shot was very fun. I shot 569 -13X for 60 rounds. Not the worst but not in the top 1/3 either.
The training class I attended the statement was made for F-open 1/4 MOA, FTR 1/2 MOA to be able to win events.

 

[gstaylorg]

My SPS tact can shoot .6 MOA 5 shot groups. However many days I find a 1 MOA grouping at 100yards. So basically OK stock barrel performance. The F-Class event I shot was very fun. I shot 569 -13X for 60 rounds. Not the worst but not in the top 1/3 either.
The training class I attended the statement was made for F-open 1/4 MOA, FTR 1/2 MOA to be able to win events.

All you really need to do is look at scores from F-T/R and F-Open to convince yourself that almost no one is shooting at this level of precision. Shooting 1/4 MOA would mean all cleans with mostly X's and it simply ain't happening in the majority of competitions at 600 yd. In LR (1000 yd) comps, no one is realistically shooting even 1 MOA. Some of the better F-Open shooters in regional or national comps are probably close to that as an agg, but I guarantee you they aren't shooting 1/4 MOA at 1000 yd, particularly at the local level.

As an F-T/R shooter, I participate in several matches every month. One is a reduced Palma-type 3 x 15 shot match at 300 yd, another is 3 x 20 at 600 yd, and two LR matches 3 x 20 at 800/900/1000 yd and 3 x 20 at 1000 yd. I have done very well in most of these matches, often winning F-T/R and occasionally F-Class overall. Even in the 300 yd Reduced Palma match, my average is right at 98% and the best score I have shot to date was a 449/450-33X. The rifle I used to shoot that score was a GA Precision Crusader in .308, re-barreled to 27". I can routinely shoot 5-shots groups with this rifle at 100 yds in the 0.4-0.6 MOA range. On rare occasions I might get a group that is a tick better than that, but not very often. So, although the Reduced Palma match uses a target with slightly smaller dimensions (0.45 MOA X-ring and 0.9 MOA 10-ring), why is this rifle that shoots very close to 0.5 MOA at 100 yd in my hands not consistently giving cleans with high X-counts?

It's because of several factors. First and foremost are the wind conditions. Wind, even though it's only a 300 yd match, has a much greater impact on shot placement than it does at 100 yd. As an example, I have another GAP Crusader in .223 that is an absolute laser with FGMM 77 gr commercial ammo. This rifle easily, and I mean easily, shoots 1/4 to 1/3 MOA groups at 100 yd. I know you read a lot of people posting their rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA "all day long". This one really does, and with very little effort on my part. I shot a 439-16X with it in the local 300 yd Reduced Palma match last weekend, which was good enough for 1st in F-T/R and 2nd overall. As an educated guess, that score and the shot patterns of my targets equates to approximately 1.25 MOA at 300 yd from a rifle that shoots well under 0.5 MOA at 100 yd. Why? Because we had very twitchy wind conditions that day, switching rapidly 180 degrees at around 3-5 mph. That not may seem like much, but it's a lot for a 77 gr pill scooting along at only 2730 fps.

Second, you're talking about 15- or 20-shot groups. Comparing the precision of a 3- or 5-shot group (even at 100 yd) to that of a 15- or 20-shot group is like comparing apples and oranges. The group with more shots will almost always be much larger. Just because a rifle can shoot a 1/4 or 1/2 MOA 5-shot group at 100 yd does not guarantee it will do it at 300 yd or 600 yd, or even farther. In some cases the wind might be the culprit, in other cases it could simply be the shooter. In any event, trying to state with any degree of certainty that a rifle needs to shoot "X" MOA in order to be competitive is an exercise in futility. It's all going to depend on the conditions and the shooter. I would be willing to bet that I could take a 1 MOA (at 100 yds) .308 rifle to a 600 yd MR match and post a higher score than some of the competitors with rifles that could easily shoot well under 1 MOA. Does having a very accurate/precise rifle help? Of course it does, but it's not all about the rifle.

If you really want to know how you'll do in a match with a certain setup, just go shoot in the match. Then you'll know. What's more, chances are very good you could then go back a second time and post a better score with the exact same setup. Before my first F-Class match, I had no idea what to expect, so I went with the following thoughts: my intent was to win, my expectation was to come in dead last. I figured anything in between and I'd be GTG. That philosophy worked and I haven't looked back. Don't worry beforehand how you MIGHT do, go out and find out how you ACTUALLY do. Then practice and go out and do better at the next match. I suspect most folks thinking about competing now will be wishing they had gotten started sooner after their first time out. It's a great time.

 

[diego-ted]

All you really need to do is look at scores from F-T/R and F-Open to convince yourself that almost no one is shooting at this level of precision. Shooting 1/4 MOA would mean all cleans with mostly X's and it simply ain't happening in the majority of competitions at 600 yd. In LR (1000 yd) comps, no one is realistically shooting even 1 MOA. Some of the better F-Open shooters in regional or national comps are probably close to that as an agg, but I guarantee you they aren't shooting 1/4 MOA at 1000 yd, particularly at the local level.

As an F-T/R shooter, I participate in several matches every month. One is a reduced Palma-type 3 x 15 shot match at 300 yd, another is 3 x 20 at 600 yd, and two LR matches 3 x 20 at 800/900/1000 yd and 3 x 20 at 1000 yd. I have done very well in most of these matches, often winning F-T/R and occasionally F-Class overall. Even in the 300 yd Reduced Palma match, my average is right at 98% and the best score I have shot to date was a 449/450-33X. The rifle I used to shoot that score was a GA Precision Crusader in .308, re-barreled to 27". I can routinely shoot 5-shots groups with this rifle at 100 yds in the 0.4-0.6 MOA range. On rare occasions I might get a group that is a tick better than that, but not very often. So, although the Reduced Palma match uses a target with slightly smaller dimensions (0.45 MOA X-ring and 0.9 MOA 10-ring), why is this rifle that shoots very close to 0.5 MOA at 100 yd in my hands not consistently giving cleans with high X-counts?

It's because of several factors. First and foremost are the wind conditions. Wind, even though it's only a 300 yd match, has a much greater impact on shot placement than it does at 100 yd. As an example, I have another GAP Crusader in .223 that is an absolute laser with FGMM 77 gr commercial ammo. This rifle easily, and I mean easily, shoots 1/4 to 1/3 MOA groups at 100 yd. I know you read a lot of people posting their rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA "all day long". This one really does, and with very little effort on my part. I shot a 439-16X with it in the local 300 yd Reduced Palma match last weekend, which was good enough for 1st in F-T/R and 2nd overall. As an educated guess, that score and the shot patterns of my targets equates to approximately 1.25 MOA at 300 yd from a rifle that shoots well under 0.5 MOA at 100 yd. Why? Because we had very twitchy wind conditions that day, switching rapidly 180 degrees at around 3-5 mph. That not may seem like much, but it's a lot for a 77 gr pill scooting along at only 2730 fps.

Second, you're talking about 15- or 20-shot groups. Comparing the precision of a 3- or 5-shot group (even at 100 yd) to that of a 15- or 20-shot group is like comparing apples and oranges. The group with more shots will almost always be much larger. Just because a rifle can shoot a 1/4 or 1/2 MOA 5-shot group at 100 yd does not guarantee it will do it at 300 yd or 600 yd, or even farther. In some cases the wind might be the culprit, in other cases it could simply be the shooter. In any event, trying to state with any degree of certainty that a rifle needs to shoot "X" MOA in order to be competitive is an exercise in futility. It's all going to depend on the conditions and the shooter. I would be willing to bet that I could take a 1 MOA (at 100 yds) .308 rifle to a 600 yd MR match and post a higher score than some of the competitors with rifles that could easily shoot well under 1 MOA. Does having a very accurate/precise rifle help? Of course it does, but it's not all about the rifle.

If you really want to know how you'll do in a match with a certain setup, just go shoot in the match. Then you'll know. What's more, chances are very good you could then go back a second time and post a better score with the exact same setup. Before my first F-Class match, I had no idea what to expect, so I went with the following thoughts: my intent was to win, my expectation was to come in dead last. I figured anything in between and I'd be GTG. That philosophy worked and I haven't looked back. Don't worry beforehand how you MIGHT do, go out and find out how you ACTUALLY do. Then practice and go out and do better at the next match. I suspect most folks thinking about competing now will be wishing they had gotten started sooner after their first time out. It's a great time.

Dead on! Go shoot and have fun.

 

[jsthntn247]

I shot my first match today and had a blast. I learned I need more practice with my cheeck pressure and rear bag. Only way to find out is to get out there and get with it.

 

[Trapshooter12]

One of the few F class matches I shot in. This guy put 20 rounds inside the 10 ring at a thousand yards. The group was not actually measured but it was estimated at about 5 to 6 inches.

He was in the first group first thing that morning when there wasn't any wind and he was rapid firing to get his string done before any breeze came up. Later on when he shot in the breeze he was all over the target.

 

[captcoop]

I shot my first match yesterday, mirage was really bad , and the winds were quartering to me, and then changing every couple of minutes in the opposite direction. Kindof like an "X" . Winds were between 8-12 knots. I scored a 529 . I didn't think that was too awful, my rifle is definitely capable. Shooting the wind is tough.

 

[XTR]

One of the few F class matches I shot in. This guy put 20 rounds inside the 10 ring at a thousand yards. The group was not actually measured but it was estimated at about 5 to 6 inches.

If that was an approved match he may well have shot a national record. It's only been done once since the changed the target in 2006, and that was earlier this yr at Camp Butner in NC when Phil Kelley shot a 200-5X.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Amazing shooters out there, great info gents, I been thinking about getting back into competitions again after a 20 year hiatus, man things have changed.
Not as good as some of those mentioned above but I will still jump in just to keep my skills somewhat intact , and stay in shape a bit.

 

[JBD56]

This is my second year of shooting f-class. First year was a good learning curve on equipment, loading techniques and wind reading. You have to decide what level you want to be at and how much you are willing to spend on this equipment. Find out who some of the top shooters in the discipline you want to shoot are, watch their technique, look at their equipment and ask as many questions as possible. Most are more than happy to share and help.

I shoot a 6BR that will basically one-hole a 105 bullet with boring regularity at 100 yards. You don't learn much about wind reading and how your "vertical" is until you get past 300 yards. I do all my ladder tests at 300 to find the node my rifles like. 1000 yards separates the okay from the good wind readers. Most of us can deal with some wind at 600 and still shoot mid 190's. I go to a 6.5X47 Lapua when shooting at 1000 and that is a humbling experience. We have a high master shooter at our club who holds the national record for 600 yards with a 200-19X, that shoots a "clean" on most nights. When you put him at 1000, he becomes a mortal like the rest of us (still kicks my ass). Learn what flags you have to watch on different ranges and keep notes of what happened each time you shoot. Probably the most helpful, great group of people I have ever been around are in this sport!

 

[TreyMeTrey]

All you really need to do is look at scores from F-T/R and F-Open to convince yourself that almost no one is shooting at this level of precision. Shooting 1/4 MOA would mean all cleans with mostly X's and it simply ain't happening in the majority of competitions at 600 yd. In LR (1000 yd) comps, no one is realistically shooting even 1 MOA. Some of the better F-Open shooters in regional or national comps are probably close to that as an agg, but I guarantee you they aren't shooting 1/4 MOA at 1000 yd, particularly at the local level.

As an F-T/R shooter, I participate in several matches every month. One is a reduced Palma-type 3 x 15 shot match at 300 yd, another is 3 x 20 at 600 yd, and two LR matches 3 x 20 at 800/900/1000 yd and 3 x 20 at 1000 yd. I have done very well in most of these matches, often winning F-T/R and occasionally F-Class overall. Even in the 300 yd Reduced Palma match, my average is right at 98% and the best score I have shot to date was a 449/450-33X. The rifle I used to shoot that score was a GA Precision Crusader in .308, re-barreled to 27". I can routinely shoot 5-shots groups with this rifle at 100 yds in the 0.4-0.6 MOA range. On rare occasions I might get a group that is a tick better than that, but not very often. So, although the Reduced Palma match uses a target with slightly smaller dimensions (0.45 MOA X-ring and 0.9 MOA 10-ring), why is this rifle that shoots very close to 0.5 MOA at 100 yd in my hands not consistently giving cleans with high X-counts?

It's because of several factors. First and foremost are the wind conditions. Wind, even though it's only a 300 yd match, has a much greater impact on shot placement than it does at 100 yd. As an example, I have another GAP Crusader in .223 that is an absolute laser with FGMM 77 gr commercial ammo. This rifle easily, and I mean easily, shoots 1/4 to 1/3 MOA groups at 100 yd. I know you read a lot of people posting their rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA "all day long". This one really does, and with very little effort on my part. I shot a 439-16X with it in the local 300 yd Reduced Palma match last weekend, which was good enough for 1st in F-T/R and 2nd overall. As an educated guess, that score and the shot patterns of my targets equates to approximately 1.25 MOA at 300 yd from a rifle that shoots well under 0.5 MOA at 100 yd. Why? Because we had very twitchy wind conditions that day, switching rapidly 180 degrees at around 3-5 mph. That not may seem like much, but it's a lot for a 77 gr pill scooting along at only 2730 fps.

Second, you're talking about 15- or 20-shot groups. Comparing the precision of a 3- or 5-shot group (even at 100 yd) to that of a 15- or 20-shot group is like comparing apples and oranges. The group with more shots will almost always be much larger. Just because a rifle can shoot a 1/4 or 1/2 MOA 5-shot group at 100 yd does not guarantee it will do it at 300 yd or 600 yd, or even farther. In some cases the wind might be the culprit, in other cases it could simply be the shooter. In any event, trying to state with any degree of certainty that a rifle needs to shoot "X" MOA in order to be competitive is an exercise in futility. It's all going to depend on the conditions and the shooter. I would be willing to bet that I could take a 1 MOA (at 100 yds) .308 rifle to a 600 yd MR match and post a higher score than some of the competitors with rifles that could easily shoot well under 1 MOA. Does having a very accurate/precise rifle help? Of course it does, but it's not all about the rifle.

If you really want to know how you'll do in a match with a certain setup, just go shoot in the match. Then you'll know. What's more, chances are very good you could then go back a second time and post a better score with the exact same setup. Before my first F-Class match, I had no idea what to expect, so I went with the following thoughts: my intent was to win, my expectation was to come in dead last. I figured anything in between and I'd be GTG. That philosophy worked and I haven't looked back. Don't worry beforehand how you MIGHT do, go out and find out how you ACTUALLY do. Then practice and go out and do better at the next match. I suspect most folks thinking about competing now will be wishing they had gotten started sooner after their first time out. It's a great time.

Best way of giving advice to a new shooter I have ever read.