If someone says they have a half MOA Rifle, does that mean all their groups are sub .500" at 100 yards, when using the correct ammo? Or does that mean the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA on a good day?
-Chris
-Chris
- Thread starter cavemanmoore
- Start date
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
It means that with the correct ammo and a nut behind the butt, the rifle has the ability to shoot a 1/2 group at 100 or a 2 1/2 group at 500, or a 5 group @ 1k. There are a bunch of people out there that say there rifles are 1/2 moa. most are full of shit. and hardly ever shoot. They are the mall ninjas at the gun store.
It means that with the correct ammo and a nut behind the butt, the rifle has the ability to shoot a 1/2 group at 100 or a 2 1/2 group at 500, or a 5 group @ 1k. There are a bunch of people out there that say there rifles are 1/2 moa. most are full of shit. and hardly ever shoot. They are the mall ninjas at the gun store.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Just tell them they need a rifle that will do this...
DK
***removed the Smiley pic***
Just tell them they need a rifle that will do this...
DK
***removed the Smiley pic***
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just tell them they need a rifle that will do this...
DK
</div></div>
Thats a 1/2 moa rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just tell them they need a rifle that will do this...
DK
Thats a 1/2 moa rifle.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
That particular outing I posted a .1" group and tied overall for the tightest 3-shot group in the history of the Smiley Competition.
However, I have shot a few other groups in the .2" to .4" range so far. The overall average grouping has been from .4" to only very seldom reaching a .55".
I will be very honest, when it opens up to around .5", I get upset and I am ready to throw my gear in the truck and head home!! I love this rifle... it is definately the most shootinist stick I have ever had the honor of owning. It just about shoots all by itself!!
DK
That particular outing I posted a .1" group and tied overall for the tightest 3-shot group in the history of the Smiley Competition.
However, I have shot a few other groups in the .2" to .4" range so far. The overall average grouping has been from .4" to only very seldom reaching a .55".
I will be very honest, when it opens up to around .5", I get upset and I am ready to throw my gear in the truck and head home!! I love this rifle... it is definately the most shootinist stick I have ever had the honor of owning. It just about shoots all by itself!!
DK
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
A rifle that can hold half moa accuracy "all day long"....When the shooter "does his part".......grin
A rifle that can hold half moa accuracy "all day long"....When the shooter "does his part".......grin
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Z71,
Are you shooting 3 or 5 shot groups? Not just for the Smiley, but on a typical day at the range. More specs on your rifle too, please.
I live in Fruita. Where are you?
-Chris
Z71,
Are you shooting 3 or 5 shot groups? Not just for the Smiley, but on a typical day at the range. More specs on your rifle too, please.
I live in Fruita. Where are you?
-Chris
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
z71rat what rifle did that and whats done to it. just curious. amazing shooting by the way
z71rat what rifle did that and whats done to it. just curious. amazing shooting by the way
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
So much for adherence to LL's rule about not posting 3 shot group pics.
So much for adherence to LL's rule about not posting 3 shot group pics.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
You are correct NH... Sorry about the pic of the Smiley 3-shooter. I will correct that situation shortly.
The groups that I reported above, other than the one with the pic that I mistakingly posted are almost all 5 shot groups. I seldom ever shoot up holes in paper over 5 shots as I find it to be counterproductive. When the paper is gone, there is nothing left to see what is being accomplished.
DK
You are correct NH... Sorry about the pic of the Smiley 3-shooter. I will correct that situation shortly.
The groups that I reported above, other than the one with the pic that I mistakingly posted are almost all 5 shot groups. I seldom ever shoot up holes in paper over 5 shots as I find it to be counterproductive. When the paper is gone, there is nothing left to see what is being accomplished.
DK
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
The rifle in question is a Savage 10FPLE .308 transplanted into a Savage Varmint Low Profile laminated stock. Other than skim bedding the EGW Tactical Rail and lightening the accutrigger springs and installing heavy action bolts... she sits right now as she was when I bought her.
Prior to changing the stock, I had less money in my completed rifle than I had in my bare FN-SPR, and this thing would absolutely run circles around my FN!!
DK
The rifle in question is a Savage 10FPLE .308 transplanted into a Savage Varmint Low Profile laminated stock. Other than skim bedding the EGW Tactical Rail and lightening the accutrigger springs and installing heavy action bolts... she sits right now as she was when I bought her.
Prior to changing the stock, I had less money in my completed rifle than I had in my bare FN-SPR, and this thing would absolutely run circles around my FN!!
DK
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Not to be a smart ass, but this is what a 1/2moa gun looks like.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek051.html
Just pulled a pic of a bench gun!
I ran a 600 yrd benchrest match this last week end, and most had a hard time holding a .5 moa agg for three 5 shot groups. 2.605 was the winner and 3.366 was second. By the way there were some very solid 600 yrd benchrest guys there (2 and the Nationals in Sacramento, CA)
A true .5 moa gun every time with a nut behind the trigger or not, is very hard to come by. The way people talk, you would think they grow on trees.
i Just wanted to bring up benchrest for comparison. We are talking purpose built guns with steady rest and the most detailed load development you will find.
Not to say they are not out there, but its not as common as we would all hope.
Willys46
Not to be a smart ass, but this is what a 1/2moa gun looks like.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek051.html
Just pulled a pic of a bench gun!
I ran a 600 yrd benchrest match this last week end, and most had a hard time holding a .5 moa agg for three 5 shot groups. 2.605 was the winner and 3.366 was second. By the way there were some very solid 600 yrd benchrest guys there (2 and the Nationals in Sacramento, CA)
A true .5 moa gun every time with a nut behind the trigger or not, is very hard to come by. The way people talk, you would think they grow on trees.
i Just wanted to bring up benchrest for comparison. We are talking purpose built guns with steady rest and the most detailed load development you will find.
Not to say they are not out there, but its not as common as we would all hope.
Willys46
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
most who say its a .5 inch gun managed to get a .5 inch group once or twice. when the rest of the time it will hover around an inch. I forgot the name of the article about the army sniper in Iraq who nailed a hajii at like 1200 yards with his issue M24. He put a single shot center mass, had his elevation maxed and was using hold over from there (i think). He said if you gave him a thousand rounds he probably couldnt do it again. Was it a master shooter, blessed rifle, magic bullets, devine intervention, aliens, or a lucky shot?
For now I compare my shot groups to that of a man sized target. So far out to 600 yards and person with a build height of Tom Cruise or more is in trouble.
most who say its a .5 inch gun managed to get a .5 inch group once or twice. when the rest of the time it will hover around an inch. I forgot the name of the article about the army sniper in Iraq who nailed a hajii at like 1200 yards with his issue M24. He put a single shot center mass, had his elevation maxed and was using hold over from there (i think). He said if you gave him a thousand rounds he probably couldnt do it again. Was it a master shooter, blessed rifle, magic bullets, devine intervention, aliens, or a lucky shot?
For now I compare my shot groups to that of a man sized target. So far out to 600 yards and person with a build height of Tom Cruise or more is in trouble.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot the name of the article about the army sniper in Iraq who nailed a hajii at like 1200 yards with his issue M24. He put a single shot center mass, had his elevation maxed and was using hold over from there (i think). He said if you gave him a thousand rounds he probably couldnt do it again. Was it a master shooter, blessed rifle, magic bullets, devine intervention, aliens, or a lucky shot?</div></div>It was Jim (Gilliland). It was 1250 meters. The spelling is 'Hajji' meaning either an honorific title, or slang for an Arab. It was from the O.P. Hotel, aka the 'Ramadi Inn'. He dialed 1000meters and held an extra nine feet using hold-over. He had ranged that window many times previously. And it was a lucky shot - a good shot, but a lucky one that had nothing to do with a .5 MOA rifle.
Print out Lowlight's 3/8" dot target. Cut each of twenty dots at 100 -yards or meters, your choice - and you will have a .5 MOA rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot the name of the article about the army sniper in Iraq who nailed a hajii at like 1200 yards with his issue M24. He put a single shot center mass, had his elevation maxed and was using hold over from there (i think). He said if you gave him a thousand rounds he probably couldnt do it again. Was it a master shooter, blessed rifle, magic bullets, devine intervention, aliens, or a lucky shot?</div></div>It was Jim (Gilliland). It was 1250 meters. The spelling is 'Hajji' meaning either an honorific title, or slang for an Arab. It was from the O.P. Hotel, aka the 'Ramadi Inn'. He dialed 1000meters and held an extra nine feet using hold-over. He had ranged that window many times previously. And it was a lucky shot - a good shot, but a lucky one that had nothing to do with a .5 MOA rifle.
Print out Lowlight's 3/8" dot target. Cut each of twenty dots at 100 -yards or meters, your choice - and you will have a .5 MOA rifle.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Graham,
I like your definition of a half MOA. Touch 20 dots on the Practical Tactical Target and your good to go.
How to I develop the "1/2 MOA" load though? 5 shot groups at 100 yards is my current method. I am beginning to feel like I am going to wear my barrel out before I get there. Indeed, if the consistency I am after is benchrest level this is an exercise in futility. But if a guy nails all the dots, he put 20 rounds within .688" of each other...
I am ready to have the "magic bullet" so I can get out and shoot steel at distance, and the aforementioned target. I don't want to do it before then though; I'm going to be very, very frustrated if I feel that I am doing my job but missing the dots.
Keep the reply's coming, they are very helpful.
-Chris
Graham,
I like your definition of a half MOA. Touch 20 dots on the Practical Tactical Target and your good to go.
How to I develop the "1/2 MOA" load though? 5 shot groups at 100 yards is my current method. I am beginning to feel like I am going to wear my barrel out before I get there. Indeed, if the consistency I am after is benchrest level this is an exercise in futility. But if a guy nails all the dots, he put 20 rounds within .688" of each other...
I am ready to have the "magic bullet" so I can get out and shoot steel at distance, and the aforementioned target. I don't want to do it before then though; I'm going to be very, very frustrated if I feel that I am doing my job but missing the dots.
Keep the reply's coming, they are very helpful.
-Chris
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Stop, And just go shoot the steel. For shooting matches, Tactical comps I feel .75 to 1 moa accuracy is all you need. Every one wants a .5 moa, but like yourself will get frustrated at the bench working out loads.
I enjoy shooting more than reloading. Find a load that feeds reliable out of the mag that shoots consistently inder 1 moa and go shoot the steel. Trust me you will have more trouble with wind than you ever will trying to hold .5moa.
Just a side note, Are you using wind flags at the range when test your loads? If not, you might have a .25moa gun but can not read the wind. Flags will tell you if it blowing or not FOR SURE not a guess.
Stop, And just go shoot the steel. For shooting matches, Tactical comps I feel .75 to 1 moa accuracy is all you need. Every one wants a .5 moa, but like yourself will get frustrated at the bench working out loads.
I enjoy shooting more than reloading. Find a load that feeds reliable out of the mag that shoots consistently inder 1 moa and go shoot the steel. Trust me you will have more trouble with wind than you ever will trying to hold .5moa.
Just a side note, Are you using wind flags at the range when test your loads? If not, you might have a .25moa gun but can not read the wind. Flags will tell you if it blowing or not FOR SURE not a guess.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If someone says they have a half MOA Rifle, does that mean all their groups are sub .500" at 100 yards, when using the correct ammo? Or does that mean the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA on a good day?
-Chris </div></div>
Should be the former, but in 99% of the "internet" cases its the latter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If someone says they have a half MOA Rifle, does that mean all their groups are sub .500" at 100 yards, when using the correct ammo? Or does that mean the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA on a good day?
-Chris </div></div>
Should be the former, but in 99% of the "internet" cases its the latter.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Its been my experience that 1/2 moa shooters are probably rarer than 1/2moa rifles.......
Its been my experience that 1/2 moa shooters are probably rarer than 1/2moa rifles.......
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its been my experience that 1/2 moa shooters are probably rarer than 1/2moa rifles....... </div></div>
+1
...and I fall outside that classification.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its been my experience that 1/2 moa shooters are probably rarer than 1/2moa rifles....... </div></div>
+1
...and I fall outside that classification.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its been my experience that 1/2 moa shooters are probably rarer than 1/2moa rifles....... </div></div>
I agree completely. The shooter is the variable.
It really is not that hard to come across a .5 MOA gun (that is one that will group .5 MOA repeatedly, without the variable of the shooter).
i.e. if you could mount the gun in an absolutly imovable vise and it would retain the same POA every shot, printing less than .5 MOA.
It is my opinion that you can find many repeatable .5 guns, but RARELY can a shooter be that repeatable.
eta: oh, and ammo is just as important, if not more so, than the rifle. It HAS to be exactly the same round for round to eliminate everything BUT the rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its been my experience that 1/2 moa shooters are probably rarer than 1/2moa rifles....... </div></div>
I agree completely. The shooter is the variable.
It really is not that hard to come across a .5 MOA gun (that is one that will group .5 MOA repeatedly, without the variable of the shooter).
i.e. if you could mount the gun in an absolutly imovable vise and it would retain the same POA every shot, printing less than .5 MOA.
It is my opinion that you can find many repeatable .5 guns, but RARELY can a shooter be that repeatable.
eta: oh, and ammo is just as important, if not more so, than the rifle. It HAS to be exactly the same round for round to eliminate everything BUT the rifle.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How to I develop the "1/2 MOA" load though? </div></div>Don't bother, and certaintly don't bother by testing it at 100.
The MOA is an angular unit of measure, so don't get caught up with it.
A load that does 1/2 MOA at 100 won't automatically - and probably won't most of the time - shoot within 1/2 MOA at 600.
My best long range loads won't shoot bugholes at 100, but they don't open up very much from 100 to 300, either.
Stick with a load that gives no pressure signs, has low SD numbers, and shoots under 1 MOA at 100. Then go test it at 300. If it shoots well at 300, it will probably shoot well at 600.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How to I develop the "1/2 MOA" load though? </div></div>Don't bother, and certaintly don't bother by testing it at 100.
The MOA is an angular unit of measure, so don't get caught up with it.
A load that does 1/2 MOA at 100 won't automatically - and probably won't most of the time - shoot within 1/2 MOA at 600.
My best long range loads won't shoot bugholes at 100, but they don't open up very much from 100 to 300, either.
Stick with a load that gives no pressure signs, has low SD numbers, and shoots under 1 MOA at 100. Then go test it at 300. If it shoots well at 300, it will probably shoot well at 600.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How to I develop the "1/2 MOA" load though? </div></div>Don't bother, and certaintly don't bother by testing it at 100.
The MOA is an angular unit of measure, so don't get caught up with it.
A load that does 1/2 MOA at 100 won't automatically - and probably won't most of the time - shoot within 1/2 MOA at 600.
My best long range loads won't shoot bugholes at 100, but they don't open up very much from 100 to 300, either.
Stick with a load that gives no pressure signs, has low SD numbers, and shoots under 1 MOA at 100. Then go test it at 300. If it shoots well at 300, it will probably shoot well at 600. </div></div>
Graham,
I believe what you are saying 100%. Even here in 'Hide country I have talked to fellows that say they shoot and 1" at 100 but 2.25" at 300. But why is this? I understand accuracy falling off at longer distances. How does a group tighten from 1 MOA at 100, to say 1/2 MOA at 300? This is a meaningful question.
My solution to this new-to-me conundrum should be to look for a round that performs well all the way out? Dang I think I was shooting the right bullet 150 rounds ago!
-Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How to I develop the "1/2 MOA" load though? </div></div>Don't bother, and certaintly don't bother by testing it at 100.
The MOA is an angular unit of measure, so don't get caught up with it.
A load that does 1/2 MOA at 100 won't automatically - and probably won't most of the time - shoot within 1/2 MOA at 600.
My best long range loads won't shoot bugholes at 100, but they don't open up very much from 100 to 300, either.
Stick with a load that gives no pressure signs, has low SD numbers, and shoots under 1 MOA at 100. Then go test it at 300. If it shoots well at 300, it will probably shoot well at 600. </div></div>
Graham,
I believe what you are saying 100%. Even here in 'Hide country I have talked to fellows that say they shoot and 1" at 100 but 2.25" at 300. But why is this? I understand accuracy falling off at longer distances. How does a group tighten from 1 MOA at 100, to say 1/2 MOA at 300? This is a meaningful question.
My solution to this new-to-me conundrum should be to look for a round that performs well all the way out? Dang I think I was shooting the right bullet 150 rounds ago!
-Chris
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Remember: MOA is an angular unit of measure, so it becomes greater as distance increases.
I'm not sying that the group tightens. I am saying that high-BC bullets with a very long bearing surface launched from fast-twist barrels take a bit of distance to stabilize and begin shooting to their potential.
For 100yards, short, flat base bullets are the way to go - ask any short-range benchrester.
But for long range, as in all things, one needs to compromise.
Remember: MOA is an angular unit of measure, so it becomes greater as distance increases.
I'm not sying that the group tightens. I am saying that high-BC bullets with a very long bearing surface launched from fast-twist barrels take a bit of distance to stabilize and begin shooting to their potential.
For 100yards, short, flat base bullets are the way to go - ask any short-range benchrester.
But for long range, as in all things, one needs to compromise.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
This is a hell of a good question. I shot a match this last weekend from 100 out to 800 yards with my custom 700. The following is my breakdown in MOA:
100 - .43 MOA
200 - 1.06 MOA
300 - .5 MOA
400 - .69 MOA
500 - 1.04 MOA
600 - .74 MOA
700 - .75 MOA
800 - .88 MOA
Overall I averaged .76 MOA which is 44% percent more than .5 MOA and I was happy with my results. Yes, the gun can shoot sub 1/2 MOA, but only at 100 under match conditions so any rifle capable of sub MOA performance is capable of winning most tac comps. I finished 2nd by the way.
This is a hell of a good question. I shot a match this last weekend from 100 out to 800 yards with my custom 700. The following is my breakdown in MOA:
100 - .43 MOA
200 - 1.06 MOA
300 - .5 MOA
400 - .69 MOA
500 - 1.04 MOA
600 - .74 MOA
700 - .75 MOA
800 - .88 MOA
Overall I averaged .76 MOA which is 44% percent more than .5 MOA and I was happy with my results. Yes, the gun can shoot sub 1/2 MOA, but only at 100 under match conditions so any rifle capable of sub MOA performance is capable of winning most tac comps. I finished 2nd by the way.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: long-shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a hell of a good question. I shot a match this last weekend from 100 out to 800 yards with my custom 700. The following is my breakdown in MOA:
100 - .43 MOA
200 - 1.06 MOA
300 - .5 MOA
400 - .69 MOA
500 - 1.04 MOA
600 - .74 MOA
700 - .75 MOA
800 - .88 MOA
Overall I averaged .76 MOA which is 44% percent more than .5 MOA and I was happy with my results. Yes, the gun can shoot sub 1/2 MOA, but only at 100 under match conditions so any rifle capable of sub MOA performance is capable of winning most tac comps. I finished 2nd by the way. </div></div>
LS,
That's outstanding shooting! And I am not easily impressed. Specs on your rig?
-Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: long-shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a hell of a good question. I shot a match this last weekend from 100 out to 800 yards with my custom 700. The following is my breakdown in MOA:
100 - .43 MOA
200 - 1.06 MOA
300 - .5 MOA
400 - .69 MOA
500 - 1.04 MOA
600 - .74 MOA
700 - .75 MOA
800 - .88 MOA
Overall I averaged .76 MOA which is 44% percent more than .5 MOA and I was happy with my results. Yes, the gun can shoot sub 1/2 MOA, but only at 100 under match conditions so any rifle capable of sub MOA performance is capable of winning most tac comps. I finished 2nd by the way. </div></div>
LS,
That's outstanding shooting! And I am not easily impressed. Specs on your rig?
-Chris
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Chris,
If you shot with me you wouldn't be impressed... trust me!
Rem 700
Mac A5
Hart 1/12 23.5"
AAC Cyclone K
USO 3.2-17 TPAL
Pushing a 175 SMK with 43.5 grains Varget and CCI 200 primers and Winchester hulls to around 2680 fps.
My buddy beat me with his .260, but that's nothing new!
Chris,
If you shot with me you wouldn't be impressed... trust me!
Rem 700
Mac A5
Hart 1/12 23.5"
AAC Cyclone K
USO 3.2-17 TPAL
Pushing a 175 SMK with 43.5 grains Varget and CCI 200 primers and Winchester hulls to around 2680 fps.
My buddy beat me with his .260, but that's nothing new!
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
And just because you have a 1/2 MOA rifle (or less), doesn't mean jack. I shot a 1.5" 5 shot group at 500 yards in a match- just outside of the scoring ring and the group didn't even count. So, it's the nut behind the gun.
And I also test any rifle that will be used for long range at 300 yards (or further). A 100 yard group can give you a "false" reading on what the best long range load is.
Almost any quality rifle can shoot under MOA. Getting a rifle to shoot 1/2 MOA or better takes some work, and lots of ammo testing.
And just because you have a 1/2 MOA rifle (or less), doesn't mean jack. I shot a 1.5" 5 shot group at 500 yards in a match- just outside of the scoring ring and the group didn't even count. So, it's the nut behind the gun.
And I also test any rifle that will be used for long range at 300 yards (or further). A 100 yard group can give you a "false" reading on what the best long range load is.
Almost any quality rifle can shoot under MOA. Getting a rifle to shoot 1/2 MOA or better takes some work, and lots of ammo testing.
G
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Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If someone says they have a half MOA Rifle, does that mean all their groups are sub .500" at 100 yards, when using the correct ammo? Or does that mean the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA on a good day?
-Chris </div></div>
I've heard of many on the internet, ain't seen one in real life yet. Thought I had one once until I shot Hardrock, found out sometimes it was a 3 moa weapon instead. The weapon is useless w/o an operator, the issue is most always the operator.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If someone says they have a half MOA Rifle, does that mean all their groups are sub .500" at 100 yards, when using the correct ammo? Or does that mean the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA on a good day?
-Chris </div></div>
I've heard of many on the internet, ain't seen one in real life yet. Thought I had one once until I shot Hardrock, found out sometimes it was a 3 moa weapon instead. The weapon is useless w/o an operator, the issue is most always the operator.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
I believe what you are saying 100%. Even here in 'Hide country I have talked to fellows that say they shoot and 1" at 100 but 2.25" at 300. But why is this? I understand accuracy falling off at longer distances. <span style="font-weight: bold">How does a group tighten from 1 MOA at 100, to say 1/2 MOA at 300? This is a meaningful question.</span>
My solution to this new-to-me conundrum should be to look for a round that performs well all the way out? Dang I think I was shooting the right bullet 150 rounds ago!
-Chris
Longer high ballistic coefficient bullets or the VLD type bullets often don‘t “go to sleep.” until 2 or sometimes 300 yards (meaning they still have a yaw or slight wiggle). This could be one reason that MOA shrinks at distances past 100 yards in some cases.
David
I believe what you are saying 100%. Even here in 'Hide country I have talked to fellows that say they shoot and 1" at 100 but 2.25" at 300. But why is this? I understand accuracy falling off at longer distances. <span style="font-weight: bold">How does a group tighten from 1 MOA at 100, to say 1/2 MOA at 300? This is a meaningful question.</span>
My solution to this new-to-me conundrum should be to look for a round that performs well all the way out? Dang I think I was shooting the right bullet 150 rounds ago!
-Chris
Longer high ballistic coefficient bullets or the VLD type bullets often don‘t “go to sleep.” until 2 or sometimes 300 yards (meaning they still have a yaw or slight wiggle). This could be one reason that MOA shrinks at distances past 100 yards in some cases.
David
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Here's one, maybe:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...442#Post1252442
Here's one, maybe:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...442#Post1252442
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
What's a 1/2 MOA rifle?
I found this in another forum and made it my singnature line ...... pretty indicative of the folks.
What's a 1/2 MOA rifle?
I found this in another forum and made it my singnature line ...... pretty indicative of the folks.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
My definition of a .5 MOA gun is one that shoots .5 MOA on average recording every round shot at a given distance and also for a given number of shots. .5 MOA with 3 shots is very different from .5 MOA with 5 shots. I suggest everyone read Denton Bramwell's articles on the Sniper's Hide home site. "The Perverse Nature of Standard Deviation" and "Group Size" are both very good. Even a .5 MOA gun will shoot groups over 1 MOA with zero influence from the shooter.
A lot of people will shoot a tiny group and think that is what the gun does and all of the time they did not acheive that group size, it was something they were doing. Not (necessarily) true.
As to shooter versus the gun, there seems to be this argument that a more accurate gun won't tighten the groups of a poor shooter. A more accurate gun will always tighten the groups of any shooter, but a poor shooter will not be able to take as much advantage of the increase in accuracy as a good shooter. I was going to write a post/article discussing this, but haven't had time.
I know that some people will define a .5 MOA gun as one that always shoots under .5 MOA "when the shooter does his part." No such animal. It is statistically impossible. Even a perfect shooter will run into an unlucky group that wil fall out of .5 MOA. If a gun always shot under .5 MOA 95% of the time, it's average would be much less than .5 MOA. I believe using the average is more "correct." This also means that about half the time (actually slightly less than half the time*), you are shooting more than .5 MOA, and more than half the time, you are shooting more.
* Because group size cannot be less than zero, the distribution is asymmetric, so the average will tend to be larger than the median
My definition of a .5 MOA gun is one that shoots .5 MOA on average recording every round shot at a given distance and also for a given number of shots. .5 MOA with 3 shots is very different from .5 MOA with 5 shots. I suggest everyone read Denton Bramwell's articles on the Sniper's Hide home site. "The Perverse Nature of Standard Deviation" and "Group Size" are both very good. Even a .5 MOA gun will shoot groups over 1 MOA with zero influence from the shooter.
A lot of people will shoot a tiny group and think that is what the gun does and all of the time they did not acheive that group size, it was something they were doing. Not (necessarily) true.
As to shooter versus the gun, there seems to be this argument that a more accurate gun won't tighten the groups of a poor shooter. A more accurate gun will always tighten the groups of any shooter, but a poor shooter will not be able to take as much advantage of the increase in accuracy as a good shooter. I was going to write a post/article discussing this, but haven't had time.
I know that some people will define a .5 MOA gun as one that always shoots under .5 MOA "when the shooter does his part." No such animal. It is statistically impossible. Even a perfect shooter will run into an unlucky group that wil fall out of .5 MOA. If a gun always shot under .5 MOA 95% of the time, it's average would be much less than .5 MOA. I believe using the average is more "correct." This also means that about half the time (actually slightly less than half the time*), you are shooting more than .5 MOA, and more than half the time, you are shooting more.
* Because group size cannot be less than zero, the distribution is asymmetric, so the average will tend to be larger than the median
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Mostly; it's a subjective comparison to the ills outside of the quoted measure. Human nature to blame something or state a proud quote of hardware.
A half MOA Rifle is a rifle proven in controlled situation to make known to the user that they should better evaluate load, dope, and read when result isn't in expectation.
It's not a calibrated click-out torque wrench in direct contact. A 5moa rifle can be a 1 moa rifle at range and a 1moa rifle at same range can be a 5moa rifle.
It can be a rifle AD'ed, mis-handled, mis-carried, mis-slung, stabbed into ground, etc. If I have learned anything in my ills; it's on controlled ability in speed, full thought, & full embrace of doubt, and within that choice of follow-thru. You can't buy a magic wand.
A true and trusted rifle won't make you good, but it might make you better.
Mostly; it's a subjective comparison to the ills outside of the quoted measure. Human nature to blame something or state a proud quote of hardware.
A half MOA Rifle is a rifle proven in controlled situation to make known to the user that they should better evaluate load, dope, and read when result isn't in expectation.
It's not a calibrated click-out torque wrench in direct contact. A 5moa rifle can be a 1 moa rifle at range and a 1moa rifle at same range can be a 5moa rifle.
It can be a rifle AD'ed, mis-handled, mis-carried, mis-slung, stabbed into ground, etc. If I have learned anything in my ills; it's on controlled ability in speed, full thought, & full embrace of doubt, and within that choice of follow-thru. You can't buy a magic wand.
A true and trusted rifle won't make you good, but it might make you better.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Huh....I guess I am doing something wrong with my five shot groups....
Take care,Stan
Huh....I guess I am doing something wrong with my five shot groups....
Take care,Stan
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot the name of the article about the army sniper in Iraq who nailed a hajii at like 1200 yards with his issue M24. He put a single shot center mass, had his elevation maxed and was using hold over from there (i think). He said if you gave him a thousand rounds he probably couldnt do it again. Was it a master shooter, blessed rifle, magic bullets, devine intervention, aliens, or a lucky shot?</div></div>It was Jim (Gilliland). It was 1250 meters. The spelling is 'Hajji' meaning either an honorific title, or slang for an Arab. It was from the O.P. Hotel, aka the 'Ramadi Inn'. He dialed 1000meters and held an extra nine feet using hold-over. He had ranged that window many times previously. And it was a lucky shot - a good shot, but a lucky one that had nothing to do with a .5 MOA rifle.
Print out Lowlight's 3/8" dot target. Cut each of twenty dots at 100 -yards or meters, your choice - and you will have a .5 MOA rifle.
</div></div>
That target is an evil bitch...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot the name of the article about the army sniper in Iraq who nailed a hajii at like 1200 yards with his issue M24. He put a single shot center mass, had his elevation maxed and was using hold over from there (i think). He said if you gave him a thousand rounds he probably couldnt do it again. Was it a master shooter, blessed rifle, magic bullets, devine intervention, aliens, or a lucky shot?</div></div>It was Jim (Gilliland). It was 1250 meters. The spelling is 'Hajji' meaning either an honorific title, or slang for an Arab. It was from the O.P. Hotel, aka the 'Ramadi Inn'. He dialed 1000meters and held an extra nine feet using hold-over. He had ranged that window many times previously. And it was a lucky shot - a good shot, but a lucky one that had nothing to do with a .5 MOA rifle.
Print out Lowlight's 3/8" dot target. Cut each of twenty dots at 100 -yards or meters, your choice - and you will have a .5 MOA rifle.
</div></div>
That target is an evil bitch...
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Huh....I guess I am doing something wrong with my five shot groups....
Take care,Stan
</div></div>
Nice shooting. How did you know that the flier in the bottom right was you? Did you feel yourself pull the shot at the last second?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Huh....I guess I am doing something wrong with my five shot groups....
Take care,Stan
</div></div>
Nice shooting. How did you know that the flier in the bottom right was you? Did you feel yourself pull the shot at the last second?
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Yes....I generally can "feel" when I screw up...it can be anything from "pulling" the trigger....to squeezing off the shot at the wrong time in my breathing cycle (did not send the shot during my breathing "pause") to squeezing the shot while I blinked,etc.,etc.
I can usually call those bad shots before I get my sight picture back. The real bummer is I have more bad shots then I do good one!
Take care,Stan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Huh....I guess I am doing something wrong with my five shot groups....
Take care,Stan
</div></div>
Nice shooting. How did you know that the flier in the bottom right was you? Did you feel yourself pull the shot at the last second? </div></div>
Yes....I generally can "feel" when I screw up...it can be anything from "pulling" the trigger....to squeezing off the shot at the wrong time in my breathing cycle (did not send the shot during my breathing "pause") to squeezing the shot while I blinked,etc.,etc.
I can usually call those bad shots before I get my sight picture back. The real bummer is I have more bad shots then I do good one!
Take care,Stan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Huh....I guess I am doing something wrong with my five shot groups....
Take care,Stan
</div></div>
Nice shooting. How did you know that the flier in the bottom right was you? Did you feel yourself pull the shot at the last second? </div></div>
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suggest everyone read Denton Bramwell's articles on the Sniper's Hide home site. "The Perverse Nature of Standard Deviation" and "Group Size" are both very good.
I was going to write a post/article discussing this, but haven't had time.</div></div>
Thanks for the references. I'll read both today.
I hope you can make time for that post soon. Has lots of potential for education and discussion. Looking forward to it!
-Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suggest everyone read Denton Bramwell's articles on the Sniper's Hide home site. "The Perverse Nature of Standard Deviation" and "Group Size" are both very good.
I was going to write a post/article discussing this, but haven't had time.</div></div>
Thanks for the references. I'll read both today.
I hope you can make time for that post soon. Has lots of potential for education and discussion. Looking forward to it!
-Chris
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes....I generally can "feel" when I screw up...it can be anything from "pulling" the trigger....to squeezing off the shot at the wrong time in my breathing cycle (did not send the shot during my breathing "pause") to squeezing the shot while I blinked,etc.,etc.
</div></div>
I get this from time to time as well. For instance, I will let the bullet go in the middle of the breathing cycle. The problem is that the bad technique does not always result in a flyer. And if it doesn't, of course, you don't call it a flier, you call it good shooting.
Some argue that less experienced shooters should buy less accurate guns as they won't make good use of the additional accuracy. I would argue the exact opposite... and the reason is that when you get fliers caused by the gun (or ammo for that matter) and you are a young shooter, you are likely to attribute it to something and as a result make changes to your form. Inexperienced shooters need the most accurate gun they can lay their hands on so that they can attribute poor shooting to the right source.
More experienced shooters don't have to worry about the attribution problem. I am not calling myself an experienced shooter by any means, but I know in my 22LR, I will get fliers based on ammo being out of spec. Usually, I will get a shot that flies too high by about 2" @ 100 or too low. This could be anything from lighter/heavier bullets to under/over charging to case capacity out of spec to poor priming (which is what I suspect... this makes a huge difference with rimfire). I know my gun and ammo well enough to not try to adjust to "work out" these issues when they appear.
I think that oneofthe hardest things to do is sort out problems with the shooter versus problems with the gun or the ammo and I wonder sometimes if I have an attribution problem when sometimes I will make mistakes and not pay for them, while other times, I pay dearly. Just something I grapple with.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes....I generally can "feel" when I screw up...it can be anything from "pulling" the trigger....to squeezing off the shot at the wrong time in my breathing cycle (did not send the shot during my breathing "pause") to squeezing the shot while I blinked,etc.,etc.
</div></div>
I get this from time to time as well. For instance, I will let the bullet go in the middle of the breathing cycle. The problem is that the bad technique does not always result in a flyer. And if it doesn't, of course, you don't call it a flier, you call it good shooting.
Some argue that less experienced shooters should buy less accurate guns as they won't make good use of the additional accuracy. I would argue the exact opposite... and the reason is that when you get fliers caused by the gun (or ammo for that matter) and you are a young shooter, you are likely to attribute it to something and as a result make changes to your form. Inexperienced shooters need the most accurate gun they can lay their hands on so that they can attribute poor shooting to the right source.
More experienced shooters don't have to worry about the attribution problem. I am not calling myself an experienced shooter by any means, but I know in my 22LR, I will get fliers based on ammo being out of spec. Usually, I will get a shot that flies too high by about 2" @ 100 or too low. This could be anything from lighter/heavier bullets to under/over charging to case capacity out of spec to poor priming (which is what I suspect... this makes a huge difference with rimfire). I know my gun and ammo well enough to not try to adjust to "work out" these issues when they appear.
I think that oneofthe hardest things to do is sort out problems with the shooter versus problems with the gun or the ammo and I wonder sometimes if I have an attribution problem when sometimes I will make mistakes and not pay for them, while other times, I pay dearly. Just something I grapple with.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
BgBmBoo
I see your measuring the OD of your groups. I see a lot of other peolpe that measure center to center of two widest holes in the paper. What is the correct way? I measure center to center, which maybe wrong.
BgBmBoo
I see your measuring the OD of your groups. I see a lot of other peolpe that measure center to center of two widest holes in the paper. What is the correct way? I measure center to center, which maybe wrong.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
If you measure the distance to the outside edges to the two most widely separated shots, you just subtract one bullet diameter to get the center-to-center distance. Either way is correct.
If you measure the distance to the outside edges to the two most widely separated shots, you just subtract one bullet diameter to get the center-to-center distance. Either way is correct.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
Thanks Lindy.
Thanks Lindy.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
I love all the negativity about a "1/2moa rifle". My last 2 outings have netted many groups that the average across the board for all of them stayed under 1/2moa for 100m (109y). My outing on Sunday netted a average group size of .484" which is .42moa @ 100m. IMO 1/2moa is easy to do, better than that is hard, holding 1/4moa for a 5x5 to post on here is REALLY hard.
If you have a good rifle that is either custom and built well, or just a good quality factory rifle with, or without, tweeks for increasing accuracy, 1/2moa is definately do-able, especially if you handload. My rifle is just a Savage. I have quite a few 1/4" groups to my credit now, however I shoot 3shot groups during load development. I'm doing some load confirmation this weekend if the weather stays somewhat decent, those are all going to be 5 shot groups. It'll likely only be 3-5shot groups for each load, so I won't get to post them up on here.
Branden
I love all the negativity about a "1/2moa rifle". My last 2 outings have netted many groups that the average across the board for all of them stayed under 1/2moa for 100m (109y). My outing on Sunday netted a average group size of .484" which is .42moa @ 100m. IMO 1/2moa is easy to do, better than that is hard, holding 1/4moa for a 5x5 to post on here is REALLY hard.
If you have a good rifle that is either custom and built well, or just a good quality factory rifle with, or without, tweeks for increasing accuracy, 1/2moa is definately do-able, especially if you handload. My rifle is just a Savage. I have quite a few 1/4" groups to my credit now, however I shoot 3shot groups during load development. I'm doing some load confirmation this weekend if the weather stays somewhat decent, those are all going to be 5 shot groups. It'll likely only be 3-5shot groups for each load, so I won't get to post them up on here.
Branden
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
A rifle shoots what it shoots. IMHO, groups are yesterday's imperative. Today's is about do I hit it or miss it when I shoot; period.
While ruling out the rifle's participation in a beginner's marksmanship is desirable, it does nothing to resolve the problem.
No matter what gun the beginner uses, it's skill, not mechanical excellence, which is going to deliver the rifle's actual potential. That potential isn't an absolute value, it's that shooter's personal best, and reaching a plateau which confirms the rifle is finally, unquestionably holding back the shooter's development.
Encouraging the beginner to make such expenditures, and enduring the delays inherent in that, both conspire to work against the main objective of getting them shooting and developing the foundation of practical experience that underlies good marksmanship development.
Greg
A rifle shoots what it shoots. IMHO, groups are yesterday's imperative. Today's is about do I hit it or miss it when I shoot; period.
While ruling out the rifle's participation in a beginner's marksmanship is desirable, it does nothing to resolve the problem.
No matter what gun the beginner uses, it's skill, not mechanical excellence, which is going to deliver the rifle's actual potential. That potential isn't an absolute value, it's that shooter's personal best, and reaching a plateau which confirms the rifle is finally, unquestionably holding back the shooter's development.
Encouraging the beginner to make such expenditures, and enduring the delays inherent in that, both conspire to work against the main objective of getting them shooting and developing the foundation of practical experience that underlies good marksmanship development.
Greg
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
I should add that a 1/2moa rifle tends to be so at 100 or less only. Outside of that range you run into environmental factors that will cause a 1/4moa right to only be 1moa or more. Unless you have access to a indoor range with zero wind, holding tight groups at long ranges requires incredible wind reading skills, or just plain dumb luck, neither of which I possess.
Branden
I should add that a 1/2moa rifle tends to be so at 100 or less only. Outside of that range you run into environmental factors that will cause a 1/4moa right to only be 1moa or more. Unless you have access to a indoor range with zero wind, holding tight groups at long ranges requires incredible wind reading skills, or just plain dumb luck, neither of which I possess.
Branden
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love all the negativity about a "1/2moa rifle". My last 2 outings have netted many groups that the average across the board for all of them stayed under 1/2moa for 100m (109y). My outing on Sunday netted a average group size of .484" which is .42moa @ 100m. IMO 1/2moa is easy to do, better than that is hard, holding 1/4moa for a 5x5 to post on here is REALLY hard.
If you have a good rifle that is either custom and built well, or just a good quality factory rifle with, or without, tweeks for increasing accuracy, 1/2moa is definately do-able, especially if you handload. My rifle is just a Savage. I have quite a few 1/4" groups to my credit now, however I shoot 3shot groups during load development. I'm doing some load confirmation this weekend if the weather stays somewhat decent, those are all going to be 5 shot groups. It'll likely only be 3-5shot groups for each load, so I won't get to post them up on here.
Branden </div></div>
Thats good that you have a good stick, but you have stated only 100 yard groups (hopefully 5 shot groups) Lets see what it is at 300 yards and 500 yards. That is a true test of a rifle. As my Marine Brothers (I was Army) love to state, Marksmanship begins at 500 yards. Many rifles can shoot 1/4 MOA at 100, I have seen few that will do it at 500.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love all the negativity about a "1/2moa rifle". My last 2 outings have netted many groups that the average across the board for all of them stayed under 1/2moa for 100m (109y). My outing on Sunday netted a average group size of .484" which is .42moa @ 100m. IMO 1/2moa is easy to do, better than that is hard, holding 1/4moa for a 5x5 to post on here is REALLY hard.
If you have a good rifle that is either custom and built well, or just a good quality factory rifle with, or without, tweeks for increasing accuracy, 1/2moa is definately do-able, especially if you handload. My rifle is just a Savage. I have quite a few 1/4" groups to my credit now, however I shoot 3shot groups during load development. I'm doing some load confirmation this weekend if the weather stays somewhat decent, those are all going to be 5 shot groups. It'll likely only be 3-5shot groups for each load, so I won't get to post them up on here.
Branden </div></div>
Thats good that you have a good stick, but you have stated only 100 yard groups (hopefully 5 shot groups) Lets see what it is at 300 yards and 500 yards. That is a true test of a rifle. As my Marine Brothers (I was Army) love to state, Marksmanship begins at 500 yards. Many rifles can shoot 1/4 MOA at 100, I have seen few that will do it at 500.
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
300 and 500 groups don't test <span style="font-weight: bold">just</span> the rifle. They test the rifle, ability of the shooter to hold the reticule (in my case, just 10x) on the same POA each shot, and the ability to have exactly identical wind conditions for each shot to get a true reading of the potential of that cartridge at that range. We all know that it's very difficult to have a time when the wind is 'nil, especially here in Missouri for me.
Branden
300 and 500 groups don't test <span style="font-weight: bold">just</span> the rifle. They test the rifle, ability of the shooter to hold the reticule (in my case, just 10x) on the same POA each shot, and the ability to have exactly identical wind conditions for each shot to get a true reading of the potential of that cartridge at that range. We all know that it's very difficult to have a time when the wind is 'nil, especially here in Missouri for me.
Branden
Re: What is a half MOA rifle?
I can appreciate an accurate rifle.
I like to know that I am the weakest link, not my equipment.
I can appreciate an accurate rifle.
I like to know that I am the weakest link, not my equipment.
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