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Gunsmithing What is the difference between a freebore reamer and bore ryder throated reamer

Emmaandhaley

Emma and Haley
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Dec 30, 2018
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Fellow Hide Members,

Can someone one school me on:

1: What a +p, or bore ryder throated reamers does?

2: Does it actually work ie: actually raise the velocity.

I have searched the internet and the claim it that you will gain around 100 FPS.

The main reason I’m asking is I have a
18” Bartlein Carbon wrapped 400 MOD BB blank that I would like to have chambered in 6.5PRC. (I will be running a suppresser for a hunting rig).

Thanks,
Jay
 
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Can you post an example? Never heard of or seen +p rifle ammo. To my limited knowledge the only equivalent that is similar is Hornady Superperformance.
 
The only rifle I recall actually ever seeing +p ammo for is 257 Robert's.


I never seen a +p chamber or brass or reamer etc....but never actually looked. Saami specs are saami specs. Anything else is essentially a wildcat.


Most high end hand loads are likely all "+p" because if pressure tested, they likely exceed pressure specs.
 
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Here’s a couple links from long range only about it. From what I gather it has to do with the chamber/throat.




 
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I can take a guess.....but, it is a guess. Many cartridges of yesteryear were loaded to pretty tame pressures by today’s standards. Modern firearms chambered for these old cartridges can handle much more than the original load pressures. Hence, some of the cartridges “may” be loaded to higher pressures, with the warning that they be “used only in modern arms capable of higher chamber pressures”! Just using the “SWAG” system for that opinion! memtb
 
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So looks like it's just a shit ton of freebore and wasted powder just to gain nominally 100 fps ...............lol why tho?
 
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Smells like marketing bullshit.
Exactly... And I'm surprised Hornady didn't jump on it first. They're the kings of that. "Hey, let's take these failed wildcats, give them a tacticool name, get them SAAMI certified, and then market them as "New" and "Innovative"..." 🤣

Not hating on Hornady, because I use a lot of their products, but that really does seem to be the extent of their marketing and cartridge development team. LOL
 
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The 257 Robert's had +p ammo at one time as pointed out above.

Hornady also produced light Magnum loads for a few years.

A 280 Remington is normally loaded to lower pressures due to the semi auto and pump rifles produced way back when in 7mm Express.

Plus P?

Not really a rifle cartridge thing and a lousy 100fps isn't worth the hassle
 
Have you looked at a 260 AI running 120-130 class and a faster burning powder, for a full(er) burn in short barrel?

Just curious.

Used to be a member here that got some great speed with some 6.5x47 loads with 120 class bullets and varget. If my memory works still…..
Was for a hunter, lower round count than a match rifle.
Bob Lee Swagger was his username.
 
Defense edge does it and are the ones who started that from my understanding. I called them a year ago and never heard back. But they throat it different to allow for less pressure if I remember correct so you are able to add more powder. It seems interesting but never got to talk to them.
 
@Huskydriver - was way back, before the scout days.

I searched the site, but couldnt find his stuff.

Sumbitch had a pile of Robert Gradous rifles and would post some amazing groups.
didnt live in a shitty trailer in AR, so I never really trusted him. 😉
 

E8E71282-5DB7-44D2-9148-CD937E6881FE.png
 
I’m pretty sure I worded the title wrong. It should read “chambering a barrel with a bore ryder throated reamers”. (Or as one company calls them +p reamers)
Is a bore rider the same as a long throat?
Back when I strictly ran the master race cartridge I started running a extra long throat version the get better really long range performance with 147’s and better utilization of the now common 2.96 capable magazines.
I was easily able to get 147’s at a bit over 2800 without wrecking brass with regular powders, possibly more with R26 but I save that for my 7 saum.
So I guess it was kinda a +p reamer.

Now that my 260 isn’t doing ELR duties I just shoot 130’s at a fairly mild 2900ish and it shoots like a pussycat.
 
A quick search says a bore rider has a shallower and more gentle angle at the throat.

Usually 1/2 of the common 1-30-0 angle so a 0-45-0?
Some say the throat erodes a bit faster.
 
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Like steel head said. The lands are shorter in the area of the throat. There’s still some engraving going on, but it softens initial chamber pressure. Pretty common among the 6PPC BR crowd.
 
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Once your primers start to look like that I recommend starting to move up by .5 grains instead of the usual 1- because you are getting close to the ceiling!
 
Right? On Snipers Hide, if you aint at 80k psi, you aint trying hard enough.
I usually don’t step on my loads too hard because I like brass life but I’ve had my 338 edge gassed up to 3100 with 285 solids and primers still didn’t blow or fall out.
2-3 loads of that will kill a case but the ballistics are quite impressive.
 
I usually don’t step on my loads too hard because I like brass life but I’ve had my 338 edge gassed up to 3100 with 285 solids and primers still didn’t blow or fall out.
2-3 loads of that will kill a case but the ballistics are quite impressive.
Im surprised that primer in the meme you posted turned perfectly to jelly without enlarging the pocket and blowing the whole mess out. Thats a very fine line. Lol
 
Im surprised that primer in the meme you posted turned perfectly to jelly without enlarging the pocket and blowing the whole mess out. Thats a very fine line. Lol
That was a SH member and that brass was smoked on the first shot.
I’m also Impressed, I have a few pieces of that brass and it’s 4 thou over maximum large rifle primer specs according to my pin gauges.
 
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That was a SH member and that brass was smoked on the first shot.
I’m also Impressed, I have a few pieces of that brass and it’s 4 thou over maximum large rifle primer specs according to my pin gauges.

"Gotta get that extra 100 fps bruh"....smh
 
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Have you thought about running some copper hunting bullets like patriotvalleyarms bullets (work amazing) baflands or hammer? You can gain your 100 feet there also because of the lighter bullets.
 
Out of an 18” barrel that 100 FPS will be extremely nice.

What does 100fps get you? A negligible amount of energy on target and scopes have turrets so you can dial up a couple mils so I'm not seeing the advantage....


If you need more speed I would step up to larger case then like a 26 nosler rather than cutting a m240b throat to play pressure games but that's just me 😂
 
What does 100fps get you? A negligible amount of energy on target and scopes have turrets so you can dial up a couple mils so I'm not seeing the advantage....


If you need more speed I would step up to larger case then like a 26 nosler rather than cutting a m240b throat to play pressure games but that's just me 😂

For a target rifle shooting 1 MOA steel targets, i would agree that 100 fps more muzzle velocity buys you almost nothing. Example, for a 140 ELDM target bullet, that is one click less wind drift at 1,000 yards.

The 6.5 PRC with all that extra case capacity makes for a viable long/er range hunting cartridge - even with a shorter barrel. As long as the bullet expands adequately to kill the game animal, all is well. [The 6.5 Creedmoor with the right bullet is an adequate hunting cartridge for short to medium range (<300 yards), but it is not really ‘long range capable.] Your 6.5 PRC is achieving somewhat lower speed than a 26” 6.5CM due to the shorter 22” barrel, but it will be a fun rifle to hunt with.

At 600 yards, shooting a 143 ELDX hunting bullet at 2,500 fps, another 100 fps only buys you one click less wind drift. That is roundoff error.

However: Bullet expansion limitations are another matter: Hornady claims that their ELDX bullets expand down to 1,600 fps:

“The new Hornady ELD-X™ hunting bullets are designed to deliver the highest BC possible for the specific bullet caliber and weight. They also provide match level accuracy at long range and effective terminal performance from maximum safe initial velocities down to ~1600 fps."

That is an impressively low number, but do understand that the bullet reaches minimum expansion velocity at that speed, and below that it mostly pencils through the animal, and it runs off to die a slow and painful death. I prefer to set a much more conservative lower limit for myself of 2,200 fps, to ensure full expansion of the bullet, and significant hydrostatic shock, so there is no need to track the animal through the timber. It also helps if shot placement is 4” off due to a bad wind call.

If you accept my rather conservative velocity limit, then assuming 2,500 fps for a 143 ELDX (improving to 2,600 fps) moves your hunting range limit from 280 yards to 370 yards. That can be significant in some parts of the western states where you need to shoot across ravines. For woodland hunting, or hunting from a blind, it is a non-issue. [Pick your own lower limit depending on bullet and game species, and run the calcs in a ballistics calculator.]

In my experience, the choice of powder can gain you 150 fps, ordering the barrel with an extra 2” can gain you 50 fps. Use of an HBN coating in a 6.5 CM gained me close to 80 fps, for an optimized load that was a good 100 fps away from bright ejector marks, so i could have had more. [Did that mostly for brass life.] But the load manuals are not much use to you if you go this route. Premium brass handles pressure better, and ejector marks show up a little later. A combo of “all of the above” will likely get you to over 2,600 fps.

A Melonited barrel is smoother and can allegedly gain you significant speed as well. We have a Blaser R93 hunting rifle on the ranch in Namibia with a set or factory Melonited barrels that easily exceeds max book speed, with very safe hand loads. Not particularly expensive either.

A good high BC copper hunting bullet (3x more expensive) can gain you a very useful range extension too, but not all rifles shoot them well. Also check the minimum twist rate spec.

Have heard about the Defensive Edge +P chamber modification, and it seems many people who have tried it got good results, but not all. Depends if you have spare case capacity left to stoke the load. [HBN has a similar issue.] I have not tried them yet, but might do so later this year for a 300 WSM that needs to shoot long heavy copper bore rider bullets at 2,500 yards.

Practically speaking: You probably will not need to hunt beyond 400 yards anyway. Be aware of your own skill limitations (like wind reading), the expansion limit of the bullet, and the accuracy of the rifle, then simply stay within that envelop, and go out and enjoy your new riffle!
 
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Im surprised that primer in the meme you posted turned perfectly to jelly without enlarging the pocket and blowing the whole mess out. Thats a very fine line. Lol

It just goes to show that this was not the work of some amateur jamoke - it took skill, practice, and lots of load development to walk right up to that line, stare the devil in his face, spit at his feet, and walk away.
 
What does 100fps get you? A negligible amount of energy on target and scopes have turrets so you can dial up a couple mils so I'm not seeing the advantage....


If you need more speed I would step up to larger case then like a 26 nosler rather than cutting a m240b throat to play pressure games but that's just me 😂
I agree.
Getting sporty with pressure is fine and dandy when you just banging steel but if it’s for serious work like hunting your playing with fire.

2600 vs 2700 is almost negligible unless your looking for Internet forums street creds.
 
For games like PRS with what are effectively wildcats (the effects of playing with oddball cartridges, modern powders, bleeding-edge bullets, non-spec reamers, and maximum COAL in non-spec magazines), sure, go ahead and play with the variables to maximize performance - just understand that this is never going to get standardized under any name ("+P" or otherwise), and that the result will likely not be as robust as going with "book" recipes. There just isn't the pressure "headroom" available that is offered by, say, chambering a century-old pistol catridge in a submachine gun.

For hunters and the public at large, if more performance is required, it general makes sense to simply step up along the cartridge hierarchy. This ain't the world in which P.O. Ackley lived; there are nearly an infinite number of choices. Maybe this requires more barrel length or a long action or both. And at some point, the "no such thing as a free lunch" theorem reigns supreme.
 
As a hunter I understand what he is trying to do. Go as light as possible and short on barrel with best or most performance he can get from caliber he wants. I think faster burning powders and solids and you might be shocked what you get. But let us know if you talk to the company about the p+ chamber
 
Agree with the comments about caliber being the easiest way to upgrade performance.

Bullet choice (bullet design) also has a major effect on terminal ballistics: I prefer to hunt with lighter Barnes LRX and Barnes TTSX solid copper bullets, as they expand into four large hard petals. Imagine a sharp four bladed propellor spinning its way through the chest cavity. I tend to pick the lighter Barnes bullets to keep the speed up to ensure the petals fully open. You always get an exit wound, the blood trail is substantial, and therefore tracking is easy. It is not a long range bullet due to it’s low BC, but it is devastating on deer and feral hogs. It performs like a bullet from one caliber larger at short to medium ranges: A 6.5 mm bullet with the terminal performance of a 7 mm. But I won’t use a Barnes bullet beyond 300 yards, as it loses speed quickly due to the low BC, and then it won’t expand properly. [A PVA Cayuga copper bullet has relatively high BC, a large diameter hollow point, and would probably do well at longer ranges. I have not tried them yet.]

Shot a large boar hog with a Barnes TTSX, broke both shoulders, and it dropped where it stood. Shot a large aoudad ram at 120 yards from a blind, through the heart and lungs, it ran 20 yards and collapsed, but they are very tough critters, and not a surprise. Blood trail was perfect. Have a look at the Barnes web site for load data, as they recommend different powders like BLC(2) because they prefer that you seat the bullets deep into the case. [To avoid heavily compressed loads, you need powders with more energy density.]

High BC at an adequate launch speed is useful at longer range: If you need to hunt antelope on grassy plains, at distances out to 500, you will need a high BC bullet like the 143 ELDX. The Nosler ABLR is similar.

Pick bullet diameter to suit the game species you are hunting: Coyotes can be hunted with a 223 or any 6 mm. I have had good success hunting deer and feral hogs with a 6.5 CM. But I would not hunt moose with a 6 mm or a 6.5 mm, as a 30 cal will do a lot better. I also would not hunt Cape Buffalo or Hippo with anything less than a 375 caliber, but a 416 would be better.

I have a buddy who gets paid to cull African game species like oryx, springbuck, and zebra on the game ranches in Namibia and South Africa. He gets called in when animals are so wild they won’t stop running until they are 800 to 1,100 yards away. He now uses a 24” 375 H&H and a 26” 338 LM. Head and high neck shots under 400 m, and chest shots beyond 400. Former national champion, and very good at what he does. His comment to me recently was that he has recently tried a 6.5CM for hunting African plains game (head and neck shots at 300-400), and he did not get good results. The heavy 338 and 375 bullets have superb BC, a lot of energy, and does far better at distance. Also has a lot less wind drift.

Out to 350 to 400 yards, your 22” light weight rifle will perform well on small to medium size game, and will be a joy to carry. Beyond that it might be less effective, but that is OK. And with the right bullet choice, you can stretch the range a bit.

When the time comes, just build another carbon fibre rifle in a 7 mm or 300 magnum caliber for the 400-1000 yard adventures on the mountain slopes. I hear 28 Nosler does well in a mountain rifle. Horses for courses argument.

Enjoy your hunting adventures!
 
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Defense edge does it and are the ones who started that from my understanding. I called them a year ago and never heard back. But they throat it different to allow for less pressure if I remember correct so you are able to add more powder. It seems interesting but never got to talk to them.

Exactly. It looks like the same scenario as 223 vs 5.56. Longer freebore by itself doesn't raise velocity (it does the opposite, by reducing pressure) but allows more powder and/or different burn rates to be used to get back up to max pressure, thereby allowing a velocity increase. It's not marketing, it's one of the fundamentals of internal ballistics.

Personally I've got no issue with somebody chasing another 100 fps in their own rifle. It's no skin off my back, and stuff like this is how actual development in the gun industry happens, on the odd time that it works out right. Gotta try new stuff to improve anything. Some of ya'll here sound kinda fudd-ish.
 
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6.5 PRC AI +P Magnum™
✔ Measured in Metric so you know it's freaking huge
✔ Edgy like the girl from Hot Topic
✔ Improved by some Australian sounding guy
✔ Plus all the Peas
✔ Added a belt to your magnum just because it's cool
✔ Somehow it's another Hornady exclusive
✔ Has oddly similar geometry to the Swedish 6.5 cartridge that's been in use for like 300 years
 
The +P on a rifle cartridge is a stepped throat. I have 260/6.5 cal, 30 cal and 338 cal. I played with em and was underwhelmed.

I don't offer them or tell anyone I have them. There's no huge benefit. Yes you gain velo. Yes you use a touch more powder safely. Yes you burn your throat out faster.

Juice isn't worth the squeeze.
 
The +P on a rifle cartridge is a stepped throat. I have 260/6.5 cal, 30 cal and 338 cal. I played with em and was underwhelmed.

I don't offer them or tell anyone I have them. There's no huge benefit. Yes you gain velo. Yes you use a touch more powder safely. Yes you burn your throat out faster.

Juice isn't worth the squeeze.
It seemed like with all this new fancy get extra speed Hardly ever works or hit or miss. Seems like the only one I've had good luck with was ackley improves for gains and better brass life
 
It seemed like with all this new fancy get extra speed Hardly ever works or hit or miss. Seems like the only one I've had good luck with was ackley improves for gains and better brass life
I've shot ackleys for nearly 10 years. Just need to know what you are after and what real expectations are.
 
No experience with Ackley Improved chambers, so just wanting to learn:

Will it help to ‘Ackley’ a modern case design like a 6.5 PRC chamber? It looks like there is very little taper to the case already. Guess you could go for a steeper shoulder angle. Any idea how much speed that would gain you?
 
And i assume thick brass will hit max pressure slightly before thin brass like Hornady, and cost you some minor amount of speed.

Brass life could likely be slightly better with the thicker brass…
 
No experience with Ackley Improved chambers, so just wanting to learn:

Will it help to ‘Ackley’ a modern case design like a 6.5 PRC chamber? It looks like there is very little taper to the case already. Guess you could go for a steeper shoulder angle. Any idea how much speed that would gain you?
I don’t think it’s worth the bother.