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What is the purpose of a short magnum?

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Outerspace

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Minuteman
Oct 31, 2009
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300wsm, 7mmsm, a number of short magnums out there. They all seem to have pretty good ballistics, very good even.

What is the point of a short magnum? What is it they do/were designed for?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Magnum performance in a rifle with a short action rifle. Some say they're more accurate as well.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

So it's just so you don't have to run the bolt very far? Really?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People are too lazy to run a long action. </div></div>

Amen

They are trying to get long action performance in a short action.... that's it.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Sorry, this is baffling. There is just a segment of shooters that want a short traveling bolt for the purpose of convenience? That seems very odd to me.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I've shot normal length bolts as a gravel pit shooter my whole life, but only got into LR shooting seriously late last summer, with some classes. I'm not familiar with the concept.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Lighter, etc. The only real advantage I see is they don't have a belt.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Why is a short magnum design more accurate?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I guess the other question is what calibers used short actions before magnum loads?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outerspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is a short magnum design more accurate? </div></div>
I was told its because of how the powder burns in the case and the pressure builds/ pressure waves inside of the case at the time of firing. a little some thing about the shoulder angle too. But i know it take less powder to push the same weight bullet in the short mag as it does to the long mag to the same fps. ( as long as the bullets arent very long and pushing deep into the wsm case). Im getting 3050fps with 190 grain SMK with 3-4 firing on a case before the primer pockets feel a little looser. i think ill get about 5-6 firing out of the cases. this is out of a 23 inch barrel

I do know people are getting more rounds out of a 300wsm barrel then a 300 win mag barrel by a good amount.

I can push 190 bullets and lower the same speed out of my wsm. heavier then that the longer case will let you push them a little harder cause of the added gun powder room.

other wise i like them cause all my AI mags will run in my 308 and 300WSM rifles.

If you really want to you can down load the 300wsm to close 308 levels to get more rounds out of it then upload when you need more power. I dont do this but there a few that do.

I know there are other reason but i cant think of them now.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

For me, its the no belt and less powder for same speeds as a large mag that were the key points in making my decision to go WSM.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Would this also mean lower recoil from 300wsm vs 300wm?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BMG50CAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outerspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is a short magnum design more accurate? </div></div>
I was told its because of how the powder burns in the case and the pressure builds/ pressure waves inside of the case at the time of firing. a little some thing about the shoulder angle too. But i know it take less powder to push the same weight bullet in the short mag as it does to the long mag to the same fps. ( as long as the bullets arent very long and pushing deep into the wsm case). Im getting 3050fps with 190 grain SMK with 3-4 firing on a case before the primer pockets feel a little looser. i think ill get about 5-6 firing out of the cases. this is out of a 23 inch barrel

I do know people are getting more rounds out of a 300wsm barrel then a 300 win mag barrel by a good amount.

I can push 190 bullets and lower the same speed out of my wsm. heavier then that the longer case will let you push them a little harder cause of the added gun powder room.

other wise i like them cause all my AI mags will run in my 308 and 300WSM rifles.

If you really want to you can down load the 300wsm to close 308 levels to get more rounds out of it then upload when you need more power. I dont do this but there a few that do.

I know there are other reason but i cant think of them now. </div></div>
Good detailed info, thanks.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

For a tactical rifle not a lot, I think what made these calibers popular is that similar ballistics (at least at lighter bullet weights) could be had in a rifle with a short action, resulting in a hunting rifle that was about 1/2 pound lighter than it's long action brother. There is of course the marketing aspect of companies being able to sell that many more rifles and ammo by bringing out a new generation of cartridges. Not to mention factory ammo is about $10 a box more for the wsm ammo.

Lots of guys are having really good luck getting them to shoot though in all types of platforms. If I were doing a tactical rifle though I think I'd just build the long action version. Especially since typically the heaviest bullets have the best longer range performance, and those are the ones the wsm's have a case volume problem with.

Some claim a reduction in recoil with the wsm, in my experience if there is, it's slight. The 270wsm and 300wsm that I've shot in similar weight guns compared to their magnum brothers kick about the same.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

A couple of you have mentioned that its a benefit to the wsm to not have a belt. What is wrong with the belt on the other magnums?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I think the main reason for the WSMs was to add to gun makers bottom line. I have a few of them and like them just fine.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I would like to see scientific proof that a short action is more accurate than a long action. This is speculation at best. Powder burn and case design potentially but again I would like to see specific data. Besides, you cannot shoot the heavier bullets, >190gns with a WSM as effectively as you can a WM. Try shooting a 240gn with a WSM. For those who run the WSM with heavy bullets do you seat that bullet a little far into the case, i.e., 180 Berger in a 7wsm? You don't have bullet seating issues in a LA. And weight? Really, weigh the difference between a Rem LA and a Rem SA and tell me it's more than a few ounces at best.

But more accurate, no. Advantageous, no, Marketing? YES.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: catt_tracker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple of you have mentioned that its a benefit to the wsm to not have a belt. What is wrong with the belt on the other magnums? </div></div>

Belted magnums are usually headspaced on the belt. Most shooters prefer that the cartridge is headspaced off of the shoulder. Belted manums CAN be set up to headspace off the shoulder too.
The short mags use less powder to achieve similar velocites therefore reducing recoil and increasing bbl life. I know of a number of long range shooters that will verify that. I personally don't believ that the short mags are any more accuracte...as long as loading density is similar. I have owned more rifles both sporting and target/tactical than I can remember, and 2 of the most accurate were a 700 in 25-06 and a M70 in 7 Rem mag. They shot fairly consistent 1/4 moa.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

If there are articles about powder burn and it's effect on accuracy, then there is an engineering solution to that 'perceived' problem, whether it is reality or not. If a shorter fatter case allows for a more uniform burn, and in some instances, a quicker burn, then it may make some sense.

Also, the reduced size or mass of the receiver can become a plus as well, not to mention cycle time between shots and comfort for the shooter during the throw of the bolt. This is subjective of course, and the laziness comment gives me a chuckle.

If a shooter can get magnum performance out of a short action cartridge, then the balance of the rifle can be benefited as well as overall weight. One more possible point would be the smaller overall package of a short action firing a magnum performance round from a shorter barrel could give equal performance of much longer barreled non-magnum rifle. For instance, a 20" 300 WSM should have equal or better ballistics than a 24" 308. The weight reduction is significant if building it as a back country hunting rifle. Same bullet, but flatter trajectory with the magnum at the end of the performance envelope. But, you get a much lighter rifle.

I'm looking at building a short barrel (20") 300 WSM hunting rifle to replace a 24" 308 to be used in the mountains for that reason alone. I'll get the close, same, or better ballistics from the the shorter rifle with the larger powder charge and can keep the action short and the weight down.

Well, it may all be bullsh!t, but we'll see how it all works out. If there are operators out there utilizing 18" 308 for tight shots, then a short barrel 300 WSM might be just the ticket??
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People are too lazy to run a long action. </div></div>

ROFL...

My hand cramps up trying to run such a long bolt.... Then you know what happens??? I become susceptible to being Counter-Sniped... This is the exact reason the military stopped using the 30.06 and went to the .308....
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Different strokes for different folks.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People are too lazy to run a long action. </div></div>

ROFL...

My hand cramps up trying to run such a long bolt.... Then you know what happens??? I become susceptible to being Counter-Sniped... This is the exact reason the military stopped using the 30.06 and went to the .308.... </div></div>

LOL, exactly!
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see scientific proof that a short action is more accurate than a long action. This is speculation at best. Powder burn and case design potentially but again I would like to see specific data. Besides, you cannot shoot the heavier bullets, >190gns with a WSM as effectively as you can a WM. Try shooting a 240gn with a WSM. For those who run the WSM with heavy bullets do you seat that bullet a little far into the case, i.e., 180 Berger in a 7wsm? You don't have bullet seating issues in a LA. And weight? Really, weigh the difference between a Rem LA and a Rem SA and tell me it's more than a few ounces at best.

But more accurate, no. Advantageous, no, Marketing? YES.</div></div>





verily so......
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

these are much balli-hoo'd hunting cartridges.....treat them like a round for a tactical match in a tactical gun and you will end up with a barrel looking like blow-torched charcoal and quick accuracy loss ....remember its an over-bore round to begin with.

most i know have long since given up on short mags....
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

the main purpose is to get folks to spend money to buy new rifles, dies etc. The industry knows just introducing a new cartridge will generate x number of sales. For instance the 357 Maximum. Try and find some. As it turns out these just happen to work extremely well so they won't go away.
The main shortcoming is finding the brass and next getting a loan from gov't to buy it haha.
I would like to play with a 7MM short mag, maybe a 6.5 Short mag.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see scientific proof that a short action is more accurate than a long action. This is speculation at best. Powder burn and case design potentially but again I would like to see specific data. Besides, you cannot shoot the heavier bullets, >190gns with a WSM as effectively as you can a WM. Try shooting a 240gn with a WSM. For those who run the WSM with heavy bullets do you seat that bullet a little far into the case, i.e., 180 Berger in a 7wsm? You don't have bullet seating issues in a LA. And weight? Really, weigh the difference between a Rem LA and a Rem SA and tell me it's more than a few ounces at best.

But more accurate, no. Advantageous, no, Marketing? YES. </div></div>

Mike, if this were 6 months ago, I would say I agree with you on the WSM OAL vs LA OAL issue, but the new Seekins WSM DBM's (which my 7WSM is using) gives you over 3.16" of internal mag OAL, so seat the out as far as you want. So as you can see, Glen Seekins has taken care of that issue for us, giving the WSM an advantage over the larger mags. IMHO, less powder is a huge advantage right now seeing as how shit (powders!) just costs too much money these days and are out of stock most of the time.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I have allways heard from pretty trustworthy accuracy gurus that shortmags are a little more consistant because there is more powder at the base of the case instead of a long skinny tube of powder it should burn more uniformly. Thats what I've been told. And also short actions are for sure more ridgid and stronger how much I don't know. How much it helps I don't know either. Just what I've been led to believe.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

To the op, I think you asked a good question, but I think you might have also started a shit storm.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I become susceptible to being Counter-Sniped... </div></div>

Would that mean Piston behind the scope?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this as it is one of the reasons I went with a WSM: Magnum performance in a SA which allows me to use the AI 10 round magazines (although I only can fit 8 rounds due to the fat powder column).

Long actions limit you to the 5 round mags (which incidentally hold 4 rounds of WSM)
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mike, if this were 6 months ago, I would say I agree with you on the WSM OAL vs LA OAL issue, but the new Seekins WSM DBM's (which my 7WSM is using) gives you over 3.16" of internal mag OAL, so seat the out as far as you want. So as you can see, Glen Seekins has taken care of that issue for us, giving the WSM an advantage over the larger mags. IMHO, less powder is a huge advantage right now seeing as how shit (powders!) just costs too much money these days and are out of stock most of the time. </div></div>

Touching the lands with a 180gr Berger in my barrel and loaded with 64.6grs of RL-15, I still have not even come close to compressing my load. How much powder are you running and is it a factory barrel that requires you to seat so far out?
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I agree with Hummer and others that the "purpose" of the short Magni is to sell rifles. A lot of it is marketing hype like stamping "New and Improved" on the same old detergent and selling it in a different sized box.

But...

Internal ballistics experimenters have been showing us that short, fat combustion chambers burn powder much more efficiently since Lou Palmisano and Ferris Pindell developed the PPC cartridges. For a look at the concept taken to its next level, go to http://www.superiorballistics.com and see what Mic McPherson and By Smalley are doing with fat columns and radiused shoulders.

The "problem" with the short Magni as I see it is manifold. First, they shouldn't have been called Magnums - in truth, they don't really do anything that a more traditional or established cartridge will not do - other than do it a tad more efficiently. Second, in the WSM's moreso than the SAUM's, the necks are too short. Finally, chambering them in short actions, while it works, limits the bullet selection to lighter weights because the longer, heavier VLD designs will have to be seated below the shoulder/neck joint to fit in an SA magazine unless you go to an aftermarket magazine like a Wyatt's or Seekins.

There are numerous advantages to the short magnums, but the "purpose" is to add variety to existing product lines and give consumers more choices - more choices means more products can be sold. When all is said and done, long range shooters are a very minor share of the firearms market. If Joe Sixpack can be convinced that the newest whiz-bang magnum - be it short, long or whatever - will make him a better hunter without his actually having to make an effort to learn how to hunt/shoot or otherwise improve his skills, then sales will go up (hopefully). So the manufacturers brought out short Magni in short light rifles and sold a bunch to hunters - until they actually shot them and got their snot kicked. The long range community has embraced them because they do deliver performance at distance when put together on a match rifle platform. They are also effective hunting rounds if recoil isn't a problem for you.

What's their purpose? Choices.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I become susceptible to being Counter-Sniped... </div></div>

Would that mean Piston behind the scope? </div></div>

You jest, but in regards to my counter sniperness, I'm already seriously behind the eight ball seeing as I have a 58mm obj on my scope. Running that scope, AND a LA would be certain death...
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I become susceptible to being Counter-Sniped... </div></div>

Would that mean Piston behind the scope? </div></div>

You jest, but in regards to my counter sniperness, I'm already seriously behind the eight ball seeing as I have a 58mm obj on my scope. Running that scope, AND a LA would be certain death... </div></div>

I just thought you might be worried about Piston Pete getting a look at ya through his high-speed gear
grin.gif


Merry Christmas!
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I find it hard to believe anyone is claiming a 300 WSM will make them a better hunter than a 308 or 30-06 without taking the time to become a better 'hunter'.

I remember when this conversation was about the 308 vs the 30-06. LOL

I wonder what the next generation of shooters will be comparing and making comments about how someone picks a new round based on the fact it will make them a better hunter. geesh

If SA makes you less of a shooter, then stick with the LA and be secure. I guess I didn't get that memo.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Short actions are by design, inherently stiffer than a long action of the same type.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

To me the purpous of a short mag was to get a lighter rifle with almost the same balistics as a regular magnum. I chose a Rem. modle 7 in 300wsm and put a lighter scope on it to hold dowm weight, I put a Luppy 2.5 x 8. This makes a light rifle I can carry all day. Woody
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm surprised nobody mentioned this as it is one of the reasons I went with a WSM: Magnum performance in a SA which allows me to use the AI 10 round magazines (although I only can fit 8 rounds due to the fat powder column).

Long actions limit you to the 5 round mags (which incidentally hold 4 rounds of WSM)</div></div>

Actually this is not true. I just sold 2-10 round AI LONG ACTION mags so that nullifies that argument.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a 3 shot group @ 300 from my 300wsm, it can outshoot me.

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=69523&Number=753771#Post753771</div></div>

Three shots do not constitute a group. Learn to read the rules before posting a group.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=779314&nt=2&page=1
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mike said:
Mike, if this were 6 months ago, I would say I agree with you on the WSM OAL vs LA OAL issue, but the new Seekins WSM DBM's (which my 7WSM is using) gives you over 3.16" of internal mag OAL, so seat the out as far as you want. So as you can see, Glen Seekins has taken care of that issue for us, giving the WSM an advantage over the larger mags. IMHO, less powder is a huge advantage right now seeing as how shit (powders!) just costs too much money these days and are out of stock most of the time.</div></div>

Here's the problem. Although Glen has found a solution, you're still not going to have the seating potential you will with a long action. Therefore, your statement of "So as you can see, Glen Seekins has taken care of that issue for us, giving the WSM an advantage over the larger mags." What is the advantage? Any perceived advantage is speculative at best.
Click to expand...
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Plus, I love how everyone says "weight reduction" as if the weight difference between a short action and a long action was a couple of pounds. We're talking ounces here people, not pounds.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a 3 shot group @ 300 from my 300wsm, it can outshoot me.

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=69523&Number=753771#Post753771</div></div>

Three shots do not constitute a group. Learn to read the rules before posting a group.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=779314&nt=2&page=1 </div></div>

Oh so sorry great one, so sorry that I didnt read the rules when I posted that picture ONE MONTH before what Lowlight said about 3 shots, I guess no one can live up to you mind reading abilites! But I guess if you would maybe have taken a minute to look into what your were talking about, you would of seen that! So maybe you should be the one to read!

 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a 3 shot group @ 300 from my 300wsm, it can outshoot me.

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=69523&Number=753771#Post753771</div></div>

Three shots do not constitute a group. Learn to read the rules before posting a group.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=779314&nt=2&page=1 </div></div>

Oh so sorry great one, so sorry that I didnt read the rules when I posted that picture ONE MONTH before what Lowlight said about 3 shots, I guess no one can live up to you mind reading abilites! But I guess if you would maybe have taken a minute to look into what your were talking about, you would of seen that! So maybe you should be the one to read!

</div></div>

I can see you are sorry. I will forgive your inadequacies. Actually, it was groups like yours that lead to the changing of the rules-groups that we have talked about for YEARS before you even discovered this site.

I do know what I'm talking about. Three shots do not constitute a group. I'll make sure Lowlight is aware of your three shot group.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

I am currently spec'ing a build to be a light hunting rifle. It will be a short mag. Is it advantageous to my application to use a SA, yes. Is it better than a long action, theoretically yes. The weight may only be a few ounces, but combine those ounces with ounces saved in the stock, and scope and you end up saving pounds. Most cartridges released in stock rifles are not sold with the thought of the long range precision shooter in mind although a few have come around. I don't think I'd worry about saving a few ounces on a rifle that gets toted from the truck to the line or bench.

Theoretically, the closer you get the powder charge to a sphere, the more consistent the charge will be, thus making it more accurate (also why you want as close to 100% case fill as possible) in theory. Then again, I just shoveled 12 inches of global warming off my sidewalk.
 
Re: What is the purpose of a short magnum?

Mike is this ok? A 10 shot group at 300 yards fired by one of those inherently inaccurate belted 300WMs
wink.gif

P1010017-3.jpg
 
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