What is your definition of Gunsmith, am I wrong?

[Caveman0101]

So over the past couple of years, there have been 5 gun stores open near me (50 miles or so) that are advertised as having "Gunsmiths" services. I've stopped in and talked to each of them about re-barreling and re-chambering a Rem 700 300 WBY. All of them have told me they don't do that. How can you claim to be a gunsmith if you can't swap out a barrel and re-chamber an action?
I mean I don't expect every gunsmith to have the equipment to be able to build a gun out of a raw billet of steel, but damn it man shouldn't they be able to do what I'm asking.
The one guy actually said he was more of a "gun mechanic" than a gunsmith. WTF
The last one said he still taught a class once a week at a gunsmith school and he would take my gun there and let them do the work.

 

[Jscb1b]

I sure the hell would not let that guy take it to school!

 

[Jgunner]

Don’t just take it somewhere. Send it to a reputable shop. Lri, phoenix custom rifles, ar any of the other places that is busy. Theres a reason.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Unfortunately, it is a term Like car restorer. Earl Scheib will paint any car for $99 and some will call that restored. Or you can take to the last nut and bolt and restore every tolerance to factory for $350k... and that’s restored.

But guilds and trades rarely police the terms any more. Though I do see terms like journeyman and apprentice and master used in some places (electricians and plumbers). But many trades simply involve hanging a sign.

I know what a master gunsmith is vs. a guy with an Allen wrench who can fit a scope mostly straight. But a lot of average customers today don’t even own a basic tool kit! (I just put up ring doorbells at the shop.... they come with screwdrivers!!! Because average Ring owner doesn’t energy own a Philips screwdriver or a Swiss Army knife. ) So there is room for both levels of gunsmithing.

Thus, unless the gunsmithing trade organizes and sets standards, it ends up the responsibility of the individual gun owner to educate themselves about what they are getting.

And aren’t we all about personal responsibility and education? Caveat emptor... yes. But how hard is it to take a look at a Gunsmith’s shop and say... ok, not a machine tool in sight. No mic’s? No flat plate? No jigs, fixtures or custom tooling? No examples of work in photos or in progress? No reputation or references? How smart do you have to be as a gun owner to use your eyes and brain and some basic common sense??? There will always be charlatans. But it’s not hard to separate the wheat from the chaff

Last, always remember that the lowest price may be the most expensive mistake ever... and the quality remains long after the price is forgotten.

And most importantly... if something seems too good to be true...

Cheers, Sirhr

PS. the King is also right on... a guy working at the top of the trade can easily fix that AR that someone built on the kitchen table and won’t run. But may take a lot more time than it’s worth... not because they are slow, but because as soon as they touch it, their name is on it. And their reputation. A master doesn’t just ‘fix’ things. They build things worthy of their name and reputation.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Earl Scheib will paint any car for $99 and some will call that restored.

I had Scheib paint a 1964 Pontiac Bonneville, 4door hardtop land yacht, for 19.95 in 1969 course gas was only 31cents per. If they are still at 99.99 an gas is 1.95 here I got fucked back then!!

 

[MtnCreek]

There's a lot of guys out there that lube and change parts that call themselves mechanics...

@Caveman0101 Ship to a real smith for re-barreling. See which has the barrel you want in stock or supply the barrel.

 

[FS1]

In my biz (HVAC) there are techs and there are mechanics. Mechanics being the king. Techs know it all, mechanics know they never will. The main difference between the two are knowledge and experience. When techs can't fix it they call in the "big dogs", the mechanics. Because when a mechanic hits a wall, they tear it down. They won't be beaten. If they don't know it, they learn it.

Sounds like you found a gun tech, but you need a gun mechanic.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

YouTube and boom! You're a gunsmith. Mechanic. HVAC Technician. Lawyer. Doctor.
Then either trash what you fucked up or call the real deal to fix your fuck up and pay the extra price for it.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Actually, if you are 'smart' about it, Youtube is a wealth of information. But, again, use common sense.

Also, to 'use' what is out on YouTube, one should have foundational skills! If you don't know how to use a file... or stones... or lapping compound... you never know when it's ok (or more often "not OK" to use a Mill or a Lathe or, dare I say it...a Dremel.

I've long thought that Dremels should be designed to short out if they get within 6" of a gun. Then again... they have their uses.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Agreed. But how many people are now experts and hang out a shingle because they fixed XYZ?

Actually, if you are 'smart' about it, Youtube is a wealth of information. But, again, use common sense.

Also, to 'use' what is out on YouTube, one should have foundational skills! If you don't know how to use a file... or stones... or lapping compound... you never know when it's ok (or more often "not OK" to use a Mill or a Lathe or, dare I say it...a Dremel.

I've long thought that Dremels should be designed to short out if they get within 6" of a gun. Then again... they have their uses.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Disclaimer. I use it but I know my limitations.

 

[deersniper]

I’m a gunsmith. I just got done CNC machining a custom NV clip on mount for someone’s super bizarro rifle setup.

It took 1 hr of design, 1hr to machine. It paid $450.

If I had been custom chambering someone’s crappy bargain store action I would have made $250 instead during that same time frame.

I don’t do chambering anymore - I tell customers to get an action that takes prefits and get rid of the ridiculous “individually chambered barrels” crap that sloppy machining necessitated in the past.

Pics and details of bizzaro night time rig?

 

[Bigfatcock]

Sirhr hit the nail on the head.

 

[Maser]

Actually, if you are 'smart' about it, Youtube is a wealth of information. But, again, use common sense.

Also, to 'use' what is out on YouTube, one should have foundational skills! If you don't know how to use a file... or stones... or lapping compound... you never know when it's ok (or more often "not OK" to use a Mill or a Lathe or, dare I say it...a Dremel.

I've long thought that Dremels should be designed to short out if they get within 6" of a gun. Then again... they have their uses.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Dremels actually do a really good job at jeweling a bolt from what I've seen.

 

[Centuriator]

This got me thinking that it's akin to guys claiming to be "mechanics" who really know only how to change the oil, rotate tires, change the brakes, etc. .... in other words just swap parts and do some minor things, as opposed to real-deal master mechanics who can tear out an engine, rebuild it, etc.

I suppose anyone can claim to be a "mechanic" much like the claim about being a gunsmith.

 

[Bigfatcock]

If they don’t have bluing tanks then they can get the fuck out of here.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Other than a wasted trip inside to get an answer, I guess I don't see the problem most of you do. To me, if a gun store has "the sign", why would I assume they chamber barrels? It most likely is scope mounting, pulling a bolt apart to see if a firing pin spring is dry and rusted. inspecting crap in general and sending a customer in the right direction. I think our local sportsman's warehouse has the sign, I've never once assumed they had a schooled gun smith on the property, let alone build rifles. Common sense tells me with the product they move daily, and the size of the building, wasting a 20'x20' area for a lathe and a couple of work benches isn't happening.
I'd also bet if you polled all rifle builders in the US today, a fair amount of them have never been to gunsmith school

 

[deersniper]

If they don’t have bluing tanks then they can get the fuck out of here.

What is this 1940?

 

[lonegunman762x51]

Today's millennial gunsmith got to be a gunsmith because his parents said so. No bluing tanks..............................no problem. Just spray on some paint and bake it in mom's toaster oven. Building an AR is the same skill level as Legos and that is the focus of most "gunsmiths" these days. We have one actual "gunsmith" in my area, population of about 300,000 people. He will have tons of work until the day he retires because he can do everything.

I have a buddy who is the gunsmith for all of the National Guard's shooting teams. Their shop had a rack of Douglas premium barrel blanks in every caliber from .223 to .458. If they wanted to test a rifle of any type they chucked up a blank and cut it into whatever they needed, assembled it on a receiver, assembled that into a rifle and headed to the 300 meter test tunnel or range to see how it worked.

When he retires they will need to find 4 or 5 guys to replace his skills.

 

[Charger442]

There's a lot of guys out there that lube and change parts that call themselves mechanics...

I can do everything a mechanic can (well, prior to the newer gen cars that needs a $10k diagnostic computer to talk to the 17 on-board computers) the difference is the time it takes to do a particular job, and the tools available. The engine rebuild metaphor is interesting but not the way you meant it. Master mechanics still will send out engine blocks to a machinist to be overbored and head surfaces milled, and head ported etc.

The gunsmith moniker gets thrown around with the post 2008 availability of AR Barbie dress up kits and the like. Now someone can build an AR and claim they are a gunsmith which is stupid.

I just saw an AR FS ad somewhere that a dude was claiming he built this AR and he'd built 15 other ARs so you can trust this one was built right and he knows what he's doing. His claim that he loctited all screws that needed it made me want to laugh and run away.

I took a couple of ARs I " built" using the SARCO M16 kits from last year to a gun shop with a "gunsmith" just to ask them to use their field and no-go gauges as a second opinion to check if the headspace was gtg. He acted like I'd walked on the moon and had "never seen" demilled AR M16 kits before. It was surreal on my end. They aren't anything special. Just a couple retro M16 clones on a Brownells and no Dak lowers.

 

[10ring'r]

I think, like everything else, that Gunsmiths are going the way of plumbers, mechanics, machinist, electricians, the list goes on. The "Trades" are being lost to a generation(s) that just want to sit in a cubicle and tap on keys. Hell, before too long, the above mentioned trades, will be able to name their price, because there is going to be such a high demand for people that can actually do the work/job. Mac

 

[Downtown]

Ironically, that would solve the problem, in a free market economy. Once the wage a tradesman can ask gets high enough, the demand should be filled.

 

[7.62willdo]

If you can’t chamber a barrel blank your not a gunsmith.....

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

If you can't install a 22lr liner, into a pistol or rifle your not a gunsmith for damn sure.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

The local stores have signs for gunsmith work but it's not an in-house deal. There's a local gunsmith that picks up the work and does the repair/whatever at his shop. He is older and no longer takes on any other business than what he gets from those stores.

 

[jakelly]

So over the past couple of years, there have been 5 gun stores open near me (50 miles or so) that are advertised as having "Gunsmiths" services. I've stopped in and talked to each of them about re-barreling and re-chambering a Rem 700 300 WBY. All of them have told me they don't do that. How can you claim to be a gunsmith if you can't swap out a barrel and re-chamber an action?
I mean I don't expect every gunsmith to have the equipment to be able to build a gun out of a raw billet of steel, but damn it man shouldn't they be able to do what I'm asking.
The one guy actually said he was more of a "gun mechanic" than a gunsmith. WTF
The last one said he still taught a class once a week at a gunsmith school and he would take my gun there and let them do the work.

I understand your frustration, but seriously, be grateful. At least they didn’t say, yes.

 

[aggiez28]

I define it as someone who works on customer supplied guns.

 

[Darayavaus]

the local gunstore/range has a bunch of kids with hammers who think they are "armorers". The "chief armorer" who is always playing with himself in the back room didn't even know how to take apart the gas system on an AUG, so yeah, I'll pass on their services.

 

[clcustom1911]

If they don’t have bluing tanks then they can get the fuck out of here.

Does parkerizing count?

 

[clcustom1911]

I'm an armorer for a couple different platforms which means I can inspect, troubleshoot, replace/fit parts, and do some basic tuning.

Definitely NOT a gunsmith. I dont make shit from scratch, cut chambers, thread things.

I've cut a handful of front sight dovetails with a mill, reparkerized and cerakoted a few things, but nothing out of control.

Armorer =/= gunsmith. Most people at gun shops are armorer level types.

 

[hlee]

Completely different field, but I was talking to one of our field service engineers about a similar phenomenon. When he started, the ask was for an FSE to show up on site with a basic description of the problem, then to recreate the issue and diagnose the cause. From there, s/he was to repair the problem (recalibrate, realign, replace, etc). Today, throughout our industry, an FSE is the pair of hands required to replace one or more parts. Time is money and it's cheaper to replace "modules" than it is to diagnose individual components.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Thanks to youtube these past two days, I confirmed how to replace oil and filters on my 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan, and learned how to descale my hot water heater. Having an idea vs viewing and reviewing the exact process saved a buncha cussin', and made me a hero in my own home. It wasn't a hard thing, wouldn't have been, and didn't have to be, thanks to youtube. It all went smoothly, and I can't always say that.

I'm sure there will be more instances in the coming weeks where I'll be checking youtube a lot, it seems.

Futility is resistant; your ass will be laminated, or sumpin'

Better to do and know, than to guess and end up with the long wait and the outrageous bill.

Greg