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What is your preferred scope level?

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alamo5000

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Jun 18, 2020
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I am on the search for two levels. One in 30mm and one in 34mm.

After lots of trial and mostly error I've figured out things I tend to like better and some stuff that I just don't like.

The cheap level that I put on my rimfire keeps getting bumped out of position. It's by far not a good level so I am going to buy a new one.

Things I think work a little bit better would be one with a single screw, preferably with the screw facing up. The ones with two screws are by comparison a pain in the ass to get lined up and tightened down especially when both screws face down.

If the single screw type has the screw facing down that's not as big of a deal.

I also like the ones that keep both eyes on the same plane. For example the rail mounted ones look neat (if you can get a good one) but they require you to look down to see it.

I tend to shoot with both eyes open. With a level just above the parallax knob on most scopes is pretty good because you can keep your site picture for the most part while you confirm your level. With both eyes open, at least for me, I have a better chance of breaking the shot while still level with a set up like that.

Another thing that I don't like as much is a level that sticks out too far.

Anyway I posted all that to ask what type of level that you use? I'm always open to try/learn new things.
 
I'll stick with the old mark one eye ball.

Install the clinometer app on your phone then have a friend hold the phone on top of the flat part of the elevation turret. Get behind the rifle put the reticle on a target when you feel the reticle is vertical say mark, causing the friend to record the number on the clineometer.

Install any level you want, use the level move your head to see the reticle, say mark.

Compare the numbers.

It always seemed to me that levels are for the bench rest guys, not for practical shooters.

Then I'm not at the prize table so if you get advice from a sponsored shooter disregard me.
 
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The farther you go in a given caliber the more important a level is. I rarely waste time shooting my .22 inside of 100 yards anymore. 200, 300, and beyond a level is needed.

That window is different for each caliber. For my 6ARC since I plan to shoot 1,000+ and beyond "eyeballing it" won't work.
 
VargmatII said:
Levels is the snake oil of the precision rifle world.
Click to expand...
I'm always open to learn. Not challenging the statement but rather wondering if you can elaborate.

I'm not using my rifles in a competitive nature. The whole using a level thing is much more about ELR (for caliber) type stuff.
 
alamo5000 said:
I'm always open to learn. Not challenging the statement but rather wondering if you can elaborate.

I'm not using my rifles in a competitive nature. The whole using a level thing is much more about ELR (for caliber) type stuff.
Click to expand...

Of course, I wrote the way I did partly to provoce, just a little bit. But also with a small chance that people will think twice.
A level is a tool and maybe it has some use to someone. I belived it years ago when I bought my first Spuhr ISMS mount, I monted it and tried to keep an eye on it, but never really felt a need for it. Now with eyes getting worse I cant even see the level without glasses on, and I shoot without glasses (I can still dial out my bad eyes with the diopter setting).
So, while I am usually just a middle of the pack competition shooter and occational hunter. I have found that not using the level at all does nothing to my results, not better or worse.
One should keep in mind that most levels are not sensitive enough, and you really should be looking through your scope when you shoot not a stupid libel. Also like Diverdon wrote above, your eye is a much better level anyways, showed in the following video:

THLR shows why levels are not needed.


Alpine 338 said:
Those people who don't believe in levels are most likely the guys who routinely shoot off a bench or level ground, and at a target that's on level ground, and/or positioned plumb.
Click to expand...
In my case, you would be very wrong. I probably dont shoot 20 shots a year from a bench. From the ground, level or not, tripods and barricades and various other stuff, that is where you find me.
 
I use the Vortex, the chubbier version. It’s cheap and the bubble is more sensitive than other popular budget options. Yes, it has two screws, one up and one down, but if I was gonna buy anything better at this point it’d be a SendIt.
 
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I got tired of “guessing” if my level moved or not...switched to spuhr scope mount.

both eyes open when shooting

left eye catches the bubble, from that position the bubble looks like it’s just touching the left hand hash mark.
 
I'm using the Vortex Basic Level -

vortexoptics.com

Bubble Level 30 mm Tube

Bubble Level
vortexoptics.com vortexoptics.com

Works fine for when I need it which is not often but it's better to have and not need than to need and not have.

VooDoo
 
I have a vortex, send it, and accuracy 1st. The tech in the send it is cool and the light is easy to see. But the cheap vortex works just as well IMO. I am on the side that I don’t think levels are necessary but it’s a nice check on what your seeing/doing is correct.
 
Alpine 338 said:
Is that the same as a pilot saying instruments are the snake oil of poor weather flying? ...right before he smacks the ground because he lost his visual horizontal reference.
Click to expand...
Nope.

It would be like a pilot with VFR restrictions who blacks out his windshield and trys to only use instruments because he thinks they give him more relevant information that he would be unable to achieve with just his eyes
 
I just have a cheap 8 dollar rail mounted level. Loctite. I use it. Never had it come loose on my 338 lm.
 
3D52789D-A766-439A-8A70-ED9B78292B28.jpeg
 
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It is just a tool to aid in repeatability. If you use a hammer to paint a wall you would say it doesnt work also. You arent hanging a picture with it. Pick a spot where its level. My bubble just touches the right line marker. I have also marked the edge of a bubble before with paint and sharpee.
 
Crosswind said:
I'm getting older and ware glasses, can't see little bubble levels. Glasses seem to through my can't off even farther. I shoot with both eyes open an the send it electronic is easy to see in a shooting position.
Click to expand...
i like it because i like shooting from a tripod vs bipod and bag.
ball head makes it easy for me to get cant when moving from target to target quickly (with nothing but hillside in the fov) and i found that although cant isn't critical at moderate distances, the sendiT at loosest setting helps me stay pretty level without slowing me down very much if at all.
 
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diverdon said:
I'll stick with the old mark one eye ball.

Install the clinometer app on your phone then have a friend hold the phone on top of the flat part of the elevation turret. Get behind the rifle put the reticle on a target when you feel the reticle is vertical say mark, causing the friend to record the number on the clineometer.

Install any level you want, use the level move your head to see the reticle, say mark.

Compare the numbers.

It always seemed to me that levels are for the bench rest guys, not for practical shooters.

Then I'm not at the prize table so if you get advice from a sponsored shooter disregard me.
Click to expand...
Especially in all the types of terrain I’ve shot in, our perception of the horizon being level has usually not been correct, and a level is needed.

For most bottleneck rifle cartridges that are capable of reaching out to 1000yds, you really need a level past ~600yds.

I haven’t seen much cant-induced windage probability error within 600yds, but it’s definitely there once you start getting out past that. The error will be a combo of windage and some elevation even, if the torque on the rifle after a shot cranks it off from where it was.

My main criteria for a level are:

Can I see it when in solid stock weld and eye-relief position behind the optic?

Is it more low-profile/snag-free, unlike the folders and versions that stick out far from the rifle.
 
VargmatII said:
Of course, I wrote the way I did partly to provoce, just a little bit. But also with a small chance that people will think twice.
A level is a tool and maybe it has some use to someone. I belived it years ago when I bought my first Spuhr ISMS mount, I monted it and tried to keep an eye on it, but never really felt a need for it. Now with eyes getting worse I cant even see the level without glasses on, and I shoot without glasses (I can still dial out my bad eyes with the diopter setting).
So, while I am usually just a middle of the pack competition shooter and occational hunter. I have found that not using the level at all does nothing to my results, not better or worse.
One should keep in mind that most levels are not sensitive enough, and you really should be looking through your scope when you shoot not a stupid libel. Also like Diverdon wrote above, your eye is a much better level anyways, showed in the following video:

THLR shows why levels are not needed.



In my case, you would be very wrong. I probably dont shoot 20 shots a year from a bench. From the ground, level or not, tripods and barricades and various other stuff, that is where you find me.
Click to expand...
I remember when THLR put that video out. Look at what distance he was shooting at. You just aren’t going to see any cant error at that range with most modern bottleneck high pressure rifle cartridges with Spitzer bullets.

Try seeing a controlled experiment out to 1000yds where the only different is rifle cant:
 
Alpine 338 said:
Those people who don't believe in levels are most likely the guys who routinely shoot off a bench or level ground, and at a target that's on level ground, and/or positioned plumb.
Click to expand...

I've shot some plumb targets and some that weren't. I've shot on level ground and I've shot off hills thru valleys and with some conditions that made it harder. As long as I shoot with both eyes open a level never helped me.

I guess if I had a bubble in the reticle ide use it. But I don't have that.

Most likely I'm not the best shot to reply to this thread, so take my opinion for what it's worth. It works for me or I wouldn't share it.
 
b6graham said:
Nope.

It would be like a pilot with VFR restrictions who blacks out his windshield and trys to only use instruments because he thinks they give him more relevant information that he would be unable to achieve with just his eyes
Click to expand...
Or more like the pilot who is flying an approach into an airport with optical illusion horizon that has the landing strip look like it’s going uphill due to the counter-oriented ridgeline in the background and off to the sides, who tries to eyeball his approach without watching descent rate, altitude, airspeed, and his artificial horizon.

For the aircraft instrument and pilot interface analogy, it’s still obviously a VFR approach, but you still need to fly the appropriate profile to connect with the ground softly using your instruments and eyes on the runway. Can you get away with landing an eyeball approach on flat terrain close to sea level in cold air? Sure. You should still use your instruments when flying an approach.

The correlation is that the LR shooter is still looking through the optic, checking his/her level when settling in the position, before taking a shot that is past the range where cant error becomes a factor.

For most shooters who rarely shoot past 600yds, they will have confirmation bias that you don’t need a level because the resolution isn’t there to witness the phenomenon. There are a lot of folks out there shooting at closer distances within 600yds, who might shoot 800-1000yds sometimes, and just write off their misses as wind-reading errors when they were likely inconsistent rifle cant.
 
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LRRPF52 said:
I remember when THLR put that video out. Look at what distance he was shooting at. You just aren’t going to see any cant error at that range with most modern bottleneck high pressure rifle cartridges with Spitzer bullets.

Try seeing a controlled experiment out to 1000yds where the only different is rifle cant:
Click to expand...


Well, level is level no matter the distance.
Seems strange that I have made first round hits beyond 1000 meters with a rifle that did not even have a libel on it. And in Norway it was under terrible conditions, ridge to ridge, shooting from snow in -25 degrees celcius. Last summer it was under good conditions, but still I never used a level. So while its a tool that some might feel the need for, its no way a must have. Unless you make a living selling levels, cos then its in your best interest to keep the myth alive.

If anyone asks me, its pretty clear where I stand and what I have found from shooting precision rifles for the last 7 years. So take it for what it is. I know that there are plenty of shooters that have shot longer and more than I have.
 
Last edited:
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i find them useful because i go through various period of time where i dont even touch a rifle

and when i do it might not be the same style stock or action

shooting a AIMX with all kinds of adjustments prone then 6 weeks later picking up a featherweight hunting rifle or 22lr that i might shoot standing...

i know im all screwed up... lol

so i truthfully use it more to refamiliarize my self with "how its supposed to feel" again

then add in that my eyes are starting to go and im right handed left eye dominant and shoot both eyes open
 
VargmatII said:
Well, level is level no matter the distance.
Seems strange that I have made first round hits beyond 1000 meters with a rifle that did not even have a libel on it. And in Norway it was under terrible conditions, ridge to ridge, shooting from snow in -25 degrees celcius. Last summer it was under good conditions, but still I never used a level. So while its a tool that some might feel the need for, its no way a must have. Unless you make a living selling levels, cos then its in your best interest to keep the myth alive.

If anyone asks me, its pretty clear where I stand and what I have found from shooting precision rifles for the last 7 years. So take it for what it is. I know that there are plenty of shooters that have shot longer and more than I have.
Click to expand...
Watch that video from about 10:00 forward.
 
I like the Knights Armament rail mounted level. It is not prone to being damaged mounted below the scopes ocular lens. My off eye is not capable of focusing on an object, so I must use my sighting eye and look in whatever direction the level is located, down is easier for me. I have gone to this unit for every rifle I need on on.
 
diverdon said:
I'll stick with the old mark one eye ball.

Install the clinometer app on your phone then have a friend hold the phone on top of the flat part of the elevation turret. Get behind the rifle put the reticle on a target when you feel the reticle is vertical say mark, causing the friend to record the number on the clineometer.

Install any level you want, use the level move your head to see the reticle, say mark.

Compare the numbers.

It always seemed to me that levels are for the bench rest guys, not for practical shooters.

Then I'm not at the prize table so if you get advice from a sponsored shooter disregard me.
Click to expand...
Au contrierre, diverdon. You need to do research on the effect of cant on point of impact shift. If one is shooting much beyond 100yds, cant is probably the number one factor in point of impact shift from point of aim. Varies on each shot making evaluation of accuracy nd related factors difficult to analyze/correct. Matters on every single shot. BIG, BIG FACTOR....MASSIVE AT LONG RANGE.
 
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alamo5000 said:
I am on the search for two levels. One in 30mm and one in 34mm.

After lots of trial and mostly error I've figured out things I tend to like better and some stuff that I just don't like.

The cheap level that I put on my rimfire keeps getting bumped out of position. It's by far not a good level so I am going to buy a new one.

Things I think work a little bit better would be one with a single screw, preferably with the screw facing up. The ones with two screws are by comparison a pain in the ass to get lined up and tightened down especially when both screws face down.

If the single screw type has the screw facing down that's not as big of a deal.

I also like the ones that keep both eyes on the same plane. For example the rail mounted ones look neat (if you can get a good one) but they require you to look down to see it.

I tend to shoot with both eyes open. With a level just above the parallax knob on most scopes is pretty good because you can keep your site picture for the most part while you confirm your level. With both eyes open, at least for me, I have a better chance of breaking the shot while still level with a set up like that.

Another thing that I don't like as much is a level that sticks out too far.

Anyway I posted all that to ask what type of level that you use? I'm always open to try/learn new things.
Click to expand...
Check out the SendIt!! electronic level. Available at Brownells for about $230. Buy once; cry once; happy ever more. Go cheap and get what one pays for........deck building carpenter technology....get a line bubble level for under $5 at Lowes....remnant duct tape roll from your pickem'up bed.....apply to your scope...... :) :) :) Just kidding, but that's how many reason cost. They spend thousands on rifle/scope/gear, then get cost obsessive on eliminating cant with carpenter technology. Rolling Eyes; Shaking Head; LMAO..... SendIt seems expensive in comparison, but isn't really even a rounding error in what most of us spend on our shooting obsession. Probably the biggest return on investment one can make in shooting, especially as range grows. And, it has Tacticool factor to your buddies with their deck building carpenter technology. Guess one could use SendIt to build a deck on off shooting weekends....Cool....now that's ROI!!! SendIT features red, blue, and green lights to indicate cant. Green = level.......Send It!!! MUCH, MUCH easier to sense in peripheral vision than attempting to read a bubble level. There are several selectable levels of sensitivity, down to about 0.2 degrees. Bubble levels....regardless of manufacturer.....usually are accurate to 1-3 degrees. (I've tested against really precision machinists levels.) SendIt mounts from picatinny rail in horizontal or vertical orientation. Easily interchangeable between rifles, so if one tends toward the Lowes/duct tape accounting mode, the cost can be amortized over several setups rather than buying a bubble level for each rig.....and, then there's that deck wifey has been wanting... A similar approach is the electronic level....LevelPlex.......in Sig Tango6 and Sierra6 (BDX) scopes. Their electronic level is built into the scope so one actually sees the level indication when viewing through lense at the top of the optic. I understand other scope manufacturers offer similar feature.
 
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I love that feature on the Tango6, but didn’t like some of the other features of the scope.

If SIG were to build a relevant features-rich, durable LR optic with that Level Plex in it, it would be a winner.

For those that haven’t seen it, it gives you UP/DOWN arrows in the 3 and 9 o’clock of the reticle edge to steer you into the optic being level.

iu
 
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LRRPF52 said:
I love that feature on the Tango6, but didn’t like some of the other features of the scope.

If SIG were to build a relevant features-rich, durable LR optic with that Level Plex in it, it would be a winner.

For those that haven’t seen it, it gives you UP/DOWN arrows in the 3 and 9 o’clock of the reticle edge to steer you into the optic being level.

iu
Click to expand...
I thought the Tango 6 was pretty good all the way around. I think it's by far the best way to do a level. I was kind of surprised the Tango 6 never caught on.
 


A level is just an idiot light telling you to learn your craft; we have four levels built into our heads, which is why people can do all sorts of sports in the mountains and not fall off the otherside. Do mountain bikers attach levels to their handlebars ?

adventurist7-1519941195.jpg


Tell a Person on a Slack Line they need a level; the aircraft reference is the absolutely DUMBEST thing on the planet; you are not connected to the ground in an airplane; we are connected when shooting. We were designed at inception to live under its rules, the grandmaster knew these rules and included multiple levels with our build.
 
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lowlight said:


A level is just an idiot light telling you to learn your craft; we have four levels built into our heads, which is why people can do all sorts of sports in the mountains and not fall off the otherside. Do mountain bikers attach levels to their handlebars ?

View attachment 7708781

Tell a Person on a Slack Line they need a level; the aircraft reference is the absolutely DUMBEST thing on the planet; you are not connected to the ground in an airplane; we are connected when shooting. We were designed at inception to live under its rules, the grandmaster knew these rules and included multiple levels with our build.
Click to expand...

The aircraft reference really is dumb. You actually cant trust your senses when flying in IMC. thats what killed JFK jr. We have to rely on instruments because we have no reference. When on the ground its just so easy. It just takes practice.
 
This one is pretty neat. Expensive but more electronics is never a bad thing?

www.shortactionprecision.com

Send iT Original Electronic Level System - Short Action Precision

Long Range Arms has changed the game when it comes to precision shooting levels. If you want to take your long range game to the next level, the “Send iT” electronic level is your answer and here are some of the reasons why:You never have to take your eyes off the reticle. The “Green” LED can be...
www.shortactionprecision.com www.shortactionprecision.com

There is a Spuhr interface for it as well. Here it is just attached to my testing rig via Picatinny.

Canadian C17 Coyote Schmidt & Bender 3-20x50 PMII.

LEVEL.PNG
 
Last edited:
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Eyeball. Nothing else matters.
If you're relaxed, comfortable, and it looks level is far better than being tense, watching a gadget, and not paying attention to the shot.
 
So, with all those saying you don't need levels, then I guess those in the construction trade don't need levels either?

Level is level, no matter what you need the reference for.
 
Alpine 338 said:
So, with all those saying you don't need levels, then I guess those in the construction trade don't need levels either?

Level is level, no matter what you need the reference for.
Click to expand...

How do you know if your level is level? :)
 
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