shooting out to 600 yards? I usually shoot paper targets at 100 yards but hopefully the local range will open the 600 yard range soon. How much power would be good for shooting at that distance? Would a 2-10x or 3-15x scope be enough?
- Thread starter Fret
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As stated, 10 power should be plenty. I'm a huge fan of the Gen1 PST 2.5-10x32 and LRHS/LRTS 3-12 for this role.
I'm kind of with hlee on this. Somewhere between 10x and 21x is probably the sweet spot for shooting 12" targets out to 600. Wouldn't go below 10x unless you have very good vision. No need for anything over 21x.
Quality of glass is also a factor. I'd rather have a 10x or 12x with really good glass than a 20x with mediocre glass.
Quality of glass is also a factor. I'd rather have a 10x or 12x with really good glass than a 20x with mediocre glass.
Useful rule of thumb ~ 2x Mag per 100yds working distances...12x
Bare minimum would be ~1x mag per 100yds working distance...6x
Bare minimum would be ~1x mag per 100yds working distance...6x
I‘m going to completely disagree, but I guess it may be because I never shoot paper @ 600.
I shoot a 3x fixed, horseshoe, ACOG out to 600 with no problem, and my eyes kind of suck. I generally shoot a full IPSC, which is over 2 moa, so nothing impressive, but I can get pretty tight center of mass groupings off bags and slow fire. I impact more often than not standing offhand shooting pretty fast. It impresses the shit out of the fuds on my home range. My shit falls apart pretty quickly after 600, but there and under I’m super confident.
To me high magnification or mounting a turret scope on a 5.56 gas gun is like using a camp knife to fillet a fish. Yes, it certainly ‘’works”, but it’s completely the wrong knife for the job. Lots of people used to impact at 1000 yards with fixed 10X Unertal. I prefer lower power at close ranges like 600, again, unless I was shooting a paper target for score.
In fact, the only time I really use the max power on any of my rifles is when shooting at 100 yards trying to get repeatable groups, or sailing them out near transonic range.
I shoot a 3x fixed, horseshoe, ACOG out to 600 with no problem, and my eyes kind of suck. I generally shoot a full IPSC, which is over 2 moa, so nothing impressive, but I can get pretty tight center of mass groupings off bags and slow fire. I impact more often than not standing offhand shooting pretty fast. It impresses the shit out of the fuds on my home range. My shit falls apart pretty quickly after 600, but there and under I’m super confident.
To me high magnification or mounting a turret scope on a 5.56 gas gun is like using a camp knife to fillet a fish. Yes, it certainly ‘’works”, but it’s completely the wrong knife for the job. Lots of people used to impact at 1000 yards with fixed 10X Unertal. I prefer lower power at close ranges like 600, again, unless I was shooting a paper target for score.
In fact, the only time I really use the max power on any of my rifles is when shooting at 100 yards trying to get repeatable groups, or sailing them out near transonic range.
What’s your budget?
Either 2.5-10, 1-10, 1-8, 3-15, 3-18, 4-16 etc. Really depends if you’re a mag whore or not. Any of the ranges would be fine at 600 on a 12” target. Dots, developing loads, etc. may be more of a challenge with less mag but not impossible. Buy a used NX8 2.5-20 or Mk5hd 3.6-18. At least you won’t be wanting more mag if you don’t need it. Doubt you’ll want less.
Im going to go against the grain here.
If this is a pure target gun, get a lot of mag. Yeah, if you want to zap some hogs at 25 its a different story, but if this gun will live its life on the bench then a minimum of 4-6 is no issue.
Shooting standing, possibly moving targets?
Issue.
Always supported, chasing groups? No issue.
Its really nice to have that 20x+ to check out your groups and make corrections, zero your scope etc. Particulalrly on a .22 cal rifle.
I have 2 .22 cal rifles, one tops out at 25, one ay 16. I've never once been trying to check out my groups at 250 and not been happy to have the 25.
Horses for courses.
If this is a pure target gun, get a lot of mag. Yeah, if you want to zap some hogs at 25 its a different story, but if this gun will live its life on the bench then a minimum of 4-6 is no issue.
Shooting standing, possibly moving targets?
Issue.
Always supported, chasing groups? No issue.
Its really nice to have that 20x+ to check out your groups and make corrections, zero your scope etc. Particulalrly on a .22 cal rifle.
I have 2 .22 cal rifles, one tops out at 25, one ay 16. I've never once been trying to check out my groups at 250 and not been happy to have the 25.
Horses for courses.
Part of it will come back to budget and use. The 2.5-10 or 3-12 offerings are going to be less expensive than the 4-16, 3-15, 3-18 type scopes with the same glass quality and features. If it is only a target gun, I would go 4-16 or similar. If you are setting this up as more of a DMR style rifle, 2.5-10 is a very versatile magnification range that will do what you want, and a 3-15 is also a great choice if you are focused 100+ yards. A bit more magnification will make it easier to see impacts, but 2.5-10 is more than sufficient.
In the 1980s there was only a 4x. Most, but not all, of the military contracts are 4X. Now they’re 1.5-6x. I have one 3.5x acquired in the late ‘90s that needs the tritium recharged.
Plenty of other brands of low powered fixed (for less than an arm and a leg) work great too. ACOG was not my point, only that shooting to 600 you don’t need a lot of power. A low power reflex type sight makes the most sense to me on an AR. I guess it doesn’t matter on a square range, but the few ARs I have regular scopes on sit and rarely get used.
Like the scopes that have 3x-15X or 3.5-21X magnification range. For really long range shooting Iike scopes over 30X on the high end.
I was a bit vague, I would recommend a TA01NSN 4x ACOG it has a fine crosshair, no need to recharge tritium. An “dead” reticle is fine during the day, at night it’s fine with a light, the only reason to recharge tritium is... I can’t think of any.
I literally cover up the fiber optics with tape because they cause so much bloom.
I literally cover up the fiber optics with tape because they cause so much bloom.
I have two scopes I use for my AR.
A 1x4 that’s my primary for 0-600 and a 6x24 for the occasional 800-1000 yard shots.
A 1x4 that’s my primary for 0-600 and a 6x24 for the occasional 800-1000 yard shots.
Thanks again for all the great info. I have a spare 6-24x AMG that I'll stick on there for now and see how that works.
Fig - Sounds to me like your recommendation has a lot to do with the kind of shooting you do. I can't shoot offhand for sh*t, but I'm pretty good from sitting or prone. Doing that at a couple of hundred yards I generally dial back the magnification on my scope. That's because I'm not rock steady at those positions and with too much magnification you're actually fighting the scope. Offhand you're going to get a lot of movement, even if you're good. Not sure I'd want to go down to 3x, but I can understand how 5x or 6x might work better than more magnification.
And of course there are high power shooters that shoot out to 600 with iron sights, and some of those guys seem to get pretty good groups.
And of course there are high power shooters that shoot out to 600 with iron sights, and some of those guys seem to get pretty good groups.
Just for info, I have a Primary Arms 1-8 LPVO on mine, and it is good for hitting targets that size with quick shots, but if you wanna shoot small groups or check your hits for precision, you need more mag. I like it, but would buy something else next time.
to me its all about what you like and want some people are happy shooting at 16x's others like to see more details . to me it all depends on what you want and are willing to pay for me I liked paying 1/2 the price of my scopes my friends bought and I got double the usable mag . Good luck to you sir and may what ever you get work the way you want it to .
Thanks! I've been more into shooting small groups so far at short distances using Vortex GE scopes with bolt guns and thought I might branch out into shooting bigger targets at a longer distance if the range would finally open the 600 yard range.
FFP scope with a decent reticle.
My Razor II helps me clip ferals at distances well past 600 metres.
Nice fine lines on the reticle.
MRAD
My Razor II helps me clip ferals at distances well past 600 metres.
Nice fine lines on the reticle.
MRAD
I have a 3-9x scope on my SPR and while it gets the job done, I have come to really appreciate the top-end magnification of the SWFA 3-15x on my Grendel. I will strongly recommend a FFP reticle for anything with a wide mag range - it's nice to settle in around 50-75% of the max magnification and still be able to use the reticle for dialing, holdovers & measurements.
As much as I've converted to the lower mag camp for hunting or defensive situation shooting, I still appreciate the 5-20 SWFA on my 20" AR15. I like seeing my hits on paper at 200, I use the high end out to 700m occasionally, and I can always stop at 12-15 if I please. I never really need anything under 5x and the weight isn't a factor the way I shoot that rifle so the negatives of a higher mag scope are moot.
I also have a Bushnell ET6-24x50 on a 6.5G and on this one I do sometimes wish I had 2x or 3x since I occasionally use it for hunting. However, I like the large objective at dusk so I'm torn between replacing the scope or getting a 12" 6.5 and using a lpvo.
I also have a Bushnell ET6-24x50 on a 6.5G and on this one I do sometimes wish I had 2x or 3x since I occasionally use it for hunting. However, I like the large objective at dusk so I'm torn between replacing the scope or getting a 12" 6.5 and using a lpvo.
Irons, or go home.
Magnified sights are for communists. Just ask Simo Hayha.
Magnified sights are for communists. Just ask Simo Hayha.
This might help you for reference-
KYL targets - 8, 6, 5, 4, and 3", at 545 yards looking through a Leupold on 10X.
KYL targets - 8, 6, 5, 4, and 3", at 545 yards looking through a Leupold on 10X.
Thanks!! That's very helpful.
PID is often times more important than shooting magnification. Also when people shoot at you they tend to hide behind shit. Can you make a 1 second headshot at 250 meters with only the grape exposed?
If you like a -1" eye relief, the TA31 is great.
Its probably the worst ACOG they make to be honest.
TA33 > TA11>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ta31/TA01
Its probably the worst ACOG they make to be honest.
TA33 > TA11>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ta31/TA01
Come shoot a CMP match and see what people can do with a 4.5x scope.
Dont take this the wrong way, if you have a "spare" AMG laying around, look in the Nightforce Competition Scope fixed 4.5x24, Leupold FX4.5 Servive Rifle scope and March has a service rifle scope as well.
I have an OK Athlon Helos BTR 1-4.5 and I can more often than not hit 2 MOA targets at 600 from the prone (77 tmk, 2750 fps-ish).
People are blown away at what these scopes will do with a little coaching and practice.
Dont take this the wrong way, if you have a "spare" AMG laying around, look in the Nightforce Competition Scope fixed 4.5x24, Leupold FX4.5 Servive Rifle scope and March has a service rifle scope as well.
I have an OK Athlon Helos BTR 1-4.5 and I can more often than not hit 2 MOA targets at 600 from the prone (77 tmk, 2750 fps-ish).
People are blown away at what these scopes will do with a little coaching and practice.
This is all personal preference and what kind of rifle you want.
A 223/556 can certainly reach well beyond 600 yards. If you just want to hit, irons with an adjustable rear sight will work. A precision rifle shooter might recommend a 5-25x. Hunters typically use a 3-15x. Personally, I have a “DMR” setup on my AR with a 1-8x LPVO and can easily hit a 10-inch plate at 600 yards
A 223/556 can certainly reach well beyond 600 yards. If you just want to hit, irons with an adjustable rear sight will work. A precision rifle shooter might recommend a 5-25x. Hunters typically use a 3-15x. Personally, I have a “DMR” setup on my AR with a 1-8x LPVO and can easily hit a 10-inch plate at 600 yards
Mine is scoped with a Nikon P.223 and I can also shoot iron sights/old school. I've shot many out to 300 yards with it with no problem. I'd love to find a place to try further.
It depends on the use of the gun. As you stated above though you are shooting primarily at static targets out to 5-600 yards. I assume this is done from a bench or prone with a bipod and bag. That said let me add my 2 cents in a general sense of things.
In the grander scheme of things there is a reason for having a 'wide' field of view. With 1x power for example you can keep a layout of the battlefield (so to speak) and have a much greater situational awareness. If you have say 20x it's very easy to lose your target (especially if said target is moving).
Generally speaking for CQB type of stuff a 1x red dot is best. You can shoot both eyes open and acquire the moving targets faster and much easier. That goes for if you are the one moving as well. It applies quite nicely to inside 100 yards but some people can stretch them out much farther.
The variable optics have their place but too much zoom can be a bad thing. If you were zoomed in to 25x on a hog (notorious for not staying on one place for long) all that hog has to do is take a step or two or turn and there you are fumbling around trying to locate your target while viewing the world through a straw.
The idea is to actually use the zoom so a throw lever is a great addition. If you have a few seconds to ID a target you can zoom in to get a positive ID and out for the shot (or vice versa).
Just for pure precision or paper punching on non dynamic targets just get something long enough to suit your needs. Again though if it's used for hunting go out to the widest setting so you can see when bambi appears out of nowhere. Too much zoom and if bambi takes a step or two and you are stuck in a situation where you are fumbling around trying to find the target.
I have a 16" AR with a 4x scope that I can take to 800 yards. Given my targets are anywhere from 18" to 24" but it's doable. It would be much easier at longer distances with a longer optic. That said I haven't changed my optic out (yet) because I am keeping the 'battlefield mentality' in the layout on that rifle. Just a day or two ago I was pinging on a 6" steel plate at 325 yards with that gun. If I wanted to hunt pigs or something it's got plenty to engage easily to 200+ yards.
With all that in mind pick a scope and reticle that you like. I am growing fond of the mil based 'christmas tree' that Vortex uses. I might upgrade my 4x (MOA based) scope to something with a bit more zoom (and something mil based) but I don't want to give up the low end. Paper punching is kind of one dimensional but hey, if that's your thing.... that said with the right reticle it makes seeing and measuring offsets for wind corrections a lot easier. Even if you are a dial kind of guy (vs a hold over guy) it will still provide valuable feedback almost instantly with the right kind of reticle even if you are shooting for groups on paper.
Basically put reticle choice is a big deal. With plain old cross hairs you have to guess at how many mils left that shot hit. With something else you can tell exactly (or pretty darn close) to how many mils it went left because of wind or whatever.
In the grander scheme of things there is a reason for having a 'wide' field of view. With 1x power for example you can keep a layout of the battlefield (so to speak) and have a much greater situational awareness. If you have say 20x it's very easy to lose your target (especially if said target is moving).
Generally speaking for CQB type of stuff a 1x red dot is best. You can shoot both eyes open and acquire the moving targets faster and much easier. That goes for if you are the one moving as well. It applies quite nicely to inside 100 yards but some people can stretch them out much farther.
The variable optics have their place but too much zoom can be a bad thing. If you were zoomed in to 25x on a hog (notorious for not staying on one place for long) all that hog has to do is take a step or two or turn and there you are fumbling around trying to locate your target while viewing the world through a straw.
The idea is to actually use the zoom so a throw lever is a great addition. If you have a few seconds to ID a target you can zoom in to get a positive ID and out for the shot (or vice versa).
Just for pure precision or paper punching on non dynamic targets just get something long enough to suit your needs. Again though if it's used for hunting go out to the widest setting so you can see when bambi appears out of nowhere. Too much zoom and if bambi takes a step or two and you are stuck in a situation where you are fumbling around trying to find the target.
I have a 16" AR with a 4x scope that I can take to 800 yards. Given my targets are anywhere from 18" to 24" but it's doable. It would be much easier at longer distances with a longer optic. That said I haven't changed my optic out (yet) because I am keeping the 'battlefield mentality' in the layout on that rifle. Just a day or two ago I was pinging on a 6" steel plate at 325 yards with that gun. If I wanted to hunt pigs or something it's got plenty to engage easily to 200+ yards.
With all that in mind pick a scope and reticle that you like. I am growing fond of the mil based 'christmas tree' that Vortex uses. I might upgrade my 4x (MOA based) scope to something with a bit more zoom (and something mil based) but I don't want to give up the low end. Paper punching is kind of one dimensional but hey, if that's your thing.... that said with the right reticle it makes seeing and measuring offsets for wind corrections a lot easier. Even if you are a dial kind of guy (vs a hold over guy) it will still provide valuable feedback almost instantly with the right kind of reticle even if you are shooting for groups on paper.
Basically put reticle choice is a big deal. With plain old cross hairs you have to guess at how many mils left that shot hit. With something else you can tell exactly (or pretty darn close) to how many mils it went left because of wind or whatever.
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My Mossberg MVP LR in 5.56 is currently wearing a VISM 30mm tubed 2.5-10x. My AR has a VisionKing 1.5-5x with 30mm tube. Not fancy or expensive, but no issues so far.
Forgive me if I didn’t see it mentioned but barrel length, twist rate, bullet you intend to shoot, and over all rifle purpose are things to consider. I made a mistake not really knowing what I wanted to do with my AR and wasted some money on a few parts change outs. If you want extended shooting 62 gr and up are ideal. More barrel more velocity.
My rifle is an 18” 223 Wylde and I stick to 77gr BTHP bullets. My original intent was extended range shooting so I put a 2.5-10 Trijicon scope on top. Great setup for ranged shooting but heavy and long so mobility and CQB are out. Realizing how limiting my setup was and how I really wanted more versatility I made a few changes including swapping to a 1-6 Vortex Viper. I can easily hit 500 yards at 6x and with good trigger control and wind call 600 yards yet still have a very capable close range gun thanks to the 1x.
My rifle is an 18” 223 Wylde and I stick to 77gr BTHP bullets. My original intent was extended range shooting so I put a 2.5-10 Trijicon scope on top. Great setup for ranged shooting but heavy and long so mobility and CQB are out. Realizing how limiting my setup was and how I really wanted more versatility I made a few changes including swapping to a 1-6 Vortex Viper. I can easily hit 500 yards at 6x and with good trigger control and wind call 600 yards yet still have a very capable close range gun thanks to the 1x.
They got all sorts of flavors these days 3x 4x 5.5x 6x.
I already have a couple of short range .223 ARs with LPVOs and one with a 20" 8 twist WOA SDM barrel that has one of those 2.5-10 PA scopes with the interesting BDC reticle:
I have another .223 with a 20" CLE 7.7 twist Bartlein barrel. This is the one that needs a scope. I'm kind of leaning toward a Gen II Razor 3-18x50. I was going to put an AMG on there but I found a spare upper receiver that I can use for a second 6 ARC upper. I ended up ordering a BA 20" ARC barrel from Brownells since they had it in stock a little while ago and will use the AMG on that. I have a CLE 6 ARC barrel on order but it's going to take 3-4 months so I decided on building a second upper to get things going. I have a lower and and upper for that and will use the other AMG for that.
I have another .223 with a 20" CLE 7.7 twist Bartlein barrel. This is the one that needs a scope. I'm kind of leaning toward a Gen II Razor 3-18x50. I was going to put an AMG on there but I found a spare upper receiver that I can use for a second 6 ARC upper. I ended up ordering a BA 20" ARC barrel from Brownells since they had it in stock a little while ago and will use the AMG on that. I have a CLE 6 ARC barrel on order but it's going to take 3-4 months so I decided on building a second upper to get things going. I have a lower and and upper for that and will use the other AMG for that.
I usually shoot 600yd. matches during the summer. 18" .223 Wylde gun, which shoots 77gr. TMK's pretty tight. I use to use a 4x16 Nikon w/BDC reticle, which sucked for precision shooting. So, I upgraded to a Vortex Viper PST GenII 5x25 w/EBR7c moa ret.. Usually shoot with it on 18x or 20x, but, when I need to see the "pasters" during the sight-in process, that 25x is real nice to be able to use, which means, I can leave my spotting scope at home.
Mac
Mac
Military generally considers 1x per 100 yds about right. But, most of those users have young eyes. My really old store bought eyes generally prefer having the option of 2x per 100 yds. Can always dial down to handle mirage, etc.
I have a 3.x15 x50 NXS nightforce scope on one rifle and a Tract 4x20 x 50, the tract is a far superior scope in my opinion i also use the Tract out to a mile on a .308.
You pay your money you take your choice!
I'll take the NF and skip shootting a mile with the .308
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