- Thread starter tlsmith22
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Keep y'er point of impact within 0.2 inch of point of aim at 50 yards, y'er doing good.
At 100 yards less than 0.625 inch, at 200 yards less than 2 inches from point of aim,
and out at 300 yards if you can keep it less than 4 inches from center y'er doing good.
Break out the ballistic calculator and check the amount of vertical spread
created with a difference of 40 fps with the 22lr at those distances.
You'll see where my numbers came from.
At 100 yards less than 0.625 inch, at 200 yards less than 2 inches from point of aim,
and out at 300 yards if you can keep it less than 4 inches from center y'er doing good.
Break out the ballistic calculator and check the amount of vertical spread
created with a difference of 40 fps with the 22lr at those distances.
You'll see where my numbers came from.
Smallest I've seen targets at for a stable position (like Prone supported) is 1/4" at 55 yards, 1" at 100 yards, and 3" at 200 yards. 300 yards they're usually pretty forgiving... so somewhere like 10".
1/4" steel, means that you need to be able to do a group that is .25" + .22" (you can edge the target), so .47" at 55 yards.
1" + .22", so 1.22" at 100 yards, and 3.22" at 200 yards.
I stopped checking groups. After looking at the grid thread I do that now when I zero my rifle. I make sure I’m within 0.2” or less at 50y shooting at intersecting lines. POA = POI is my goal. Could care less about groups unless I’m just wanting to see what I can do.
I believe you are referring to your method of shooting that grid and measuring each shot to POI. Now if the OP is referring to shooting a 5 shot group to determine acceptable accuracy- in my experience- .5 at 50, 1" at 100, 4" at 200. I don't really have a good number at 300 as I see those targets only at NRLX matches. If your gun can shoot that , it's not holding you back at an NRL match. I had Lapua test my RimX- 20 lots of Center X the best one was .7 something at 100.
Nope, we're talking competition shooting...Rule #1...ya' gotta hit what you aim at, in order to score.
PRS and NRL targets are shot for score, not group size. You might have a great group,
but if it's not in the scoring zone, ya' get no points. Groups show consistent trajectories,
but don't always indicate the ability to be competitive. I've learned that the hard way.
PRS and NRL targets are shot for score, not group size. You might have a great group,
but if it's not in the scoring zone, ya' get no points. Groups show consistent trajectories,
but don't always indicate the ability to be competitive. I've learned that the hard way.
I look for MOA at 50yds. to 150yds. beyond 150yds things start opening up. When it is great wind conditions. I can see sub moa out to 220yds. I don't shoot paper groups any more, I shoot on steel out to 330yds. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/bergara-b14r-day-at-the-range.7112937/ This is rare wind conditions for our range.
If you have a gun / ammo that will shoot sub moa out to 300yds, from a bench. You will never get that solid of a setup other than prone. If you are going to shoot PRS/NRL. Get a gun / ammo combo that shoots well and practice, practice, practice.
Mark
@justin amateur
Since your numbers represent the vertical dispersion from muzzle velocity variation, they represent a best case scenario when wind or any other environmental condition is not a factor or y'er an expert at doping the wind.
Also, how many shots in the group? The waste of ammunition 3, the pathetic 5, the almost as pathetic 10, the mediocre 25, the almost statistically reasonable 50 or the statistically significant 100?
This
I figure we're discussing "match" accuracy Rick. What it'll take to be competitive.
I've found with the better 22lr cartridges, 4 inches of spread is about as good as it gets at 200 yards.
That was obtained outdoors off a bipod and rear bag with a steady breeze, 50 shot sample size.
Even with custom rifles and mechanical rests, those entire box groups come in right at 4 inches.
Only time I've seen better, was 3 inches with a high end purpose built rifle with tuner and custom rest.
I've found with the better 22lr cartridges, 4 inches of spread is about as good as it gets at 200 yards.
That was obtained outdoors off a bipod and rear bag with a steady breeze, 50 shot sample size.
Even with custom rifles and mechanical rests, those entire box groups come in right at 4 inches.
Only time I've seen better, was 3 inches with a high end purpose built rifle with tuner and custom rest.
@justin amateur
Just what I needed after a disappointing morning at the range. However, I now have a target, figuratively and literally, a 50 shot group within a 3" disk at 200yd. Will see how close a Vudoo V22S single shot can come with a benchrest stock, Lapua lot tested ammo, and a single piece mechanical rest on a bench at a range with no wind. If my best is never smaller than 4", you will never hear from me again on this subject. If I am desperate, will consider using a barrel tuner and thus be struck-off the role of the SOSOA, Standing Offhand Shooters of America.
Rick
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I think you might have missed his point completely. He is providing data for POI not group size.
I'd be more concerned with your ability to negotiate obstacles, building stable positions, managing time, observing the wind conditions and having solid dope.
Most people's setups if they've done any ammo testing at all is gonna be more than adequate for 90-95%% of the targets in NRL.
Simple things like dry firing the stages at home or live fire practice when possible pays big dividends. Seeing the problems before they're a problem. Knowing where you can take your time or where/when you need to hussle a little. Managing your gear. Doibg your best to remove any stupid mistakes so you can focus on what the stage asks you to do.
Most people's setups if they've done any ammo testing at all is gonna be more than adequate for 90-95%% of the targets in NRL.
Simple things like dry firing the stages at home or live fire practice when possible pays big dividends. Seeing the problems before they're a problem. Knowing where you can take your time or where/when you need to hussle a little. Managing your gear. Doibg your best to remove any stupid mistakes so you can focus on what the stage asks you to do.
Match accuracy is not a well defined term.
As always the best results that can be achieved with a very good barrel will always be dependent on the ammo itself. With barrels that are less than very good, results will not be as good.
At 50 yards/meters, a general rule of thumb an excellent barrel with an excellent lot of ammo should be able to regularly produce ten shot groups that are no more than 12mm outside edge-to-outside edge (or about .270ish" center-to-center). But those barrels and those lots are not common.
Consistent ten shot groups that are no more than 13mm outside edge-to-outside edge (or about .310ish" center-to-center) are achievable with very good lots of ammo.
Consistent ten shots groups that are no more than 15mm (oto) or about .390ish" ctc reflect a good lot of ammo.
What happens further out? With .22LR accuracy is non-linear, which means it gets progressively worse as distance increases. In other words, expect group sizes to more than double. A comparison of results from the Lapua testing facilities at both 50 and 100 meters shows that on average results increase by a factor of 2.8. Of course some ammos/barrels will produce better and worse results.
A further difficulty is that when shooting outdoors, results are difficult to predict because it's impossible to always reliably account for movement of air between the shooter and the target.
@Williwaw:
Of course @justin amateur can speak for himself but I do not think so. The data is for the spread of the POI which is, by definition, the group size. Furthermore, by implication since this thread concerns accuracy it is about accuracy group size, not precision group size.
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????? Deliciously vague as my high school English teacher used to say but definitely not wrong.
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Jbell was agreeing with my opinion.
Rick, when you do get a chance to attempt that 50 at 200,
don't forget to include my rifle pron!
Pics of setup, rifle and view downrange.
Use the chronograph if you can. I do like my mv numbers
Rick, when you do get a chance to attempt that 50 at 200,
don't forget to include my rifle pron!
Pics of setup, rifle and view downrange.
Use the chronograph if you can. I do like my mv numbers
Hell, if you can print a accurate smiley face at 25 yards with your rounds, that to me is match accuracy.
Note, I said ACCURATE smiley face.
Eyes in correct place, no wiggles in the smile line, etc.
That means you are hitting POA-POI very well.
It's not easy to do even with an accurate rifle.
It's the first thing I do whenever I use a public range (not very often because I hate public ranges).
In 2 minutes you see people all up and down the line attempting, and failing, to do it.
Note, I said ACCURATE smiley face.
Eyes in correct place, no wiggles in the smile line, etc.
That means you are hitting POA-POI very well.
It's not easy to do even with an accurate rifle.
It's the first thing I do whenever I use a public range (not very often because I hate public ranges).
In 2 minutes you see people all up and down the line attempting, and failing, to do it.
@justin amateur:Jbell was agreeing with my opinion.
Rick, when you do get a chance to attempt that 50 at 200,
don't forget to include my rifle pron!
Pics of setup, rifle and view downrange.
Use the chronograph if you can. I do like my mv numbers
Given my standing offhand shooting today, even with a one-piece mechanical rest and all the rest of the shit I may not be able to keep the bullet holes on an 8.5" x 11" piece of paper at 200yd, actually 198yd my measured distance to the nominal 200yd targets. However, if by some miracle I can keep 50 shots within a 4" diameter disk, I promise you I will buy a Labradar. However, then we are going to have to start a thread for best 50 shot rimfire shooter at 200yd with North Slovakian Gun Club rules which only have one rule, "There are no rules". Well, one more rule, only small caliber rimfire ammunition since there is some slobberknocking large caliber rimfire ammunition, 9.3mm IIRC.
En garde.
Rick
Old thread with results at 200 yards....lots of results.
www.snipershide.com
Best results with 22lr at 200 yards for 50 consecutive shots
www.snipershide.com
200 yards with rimfire
I've been sending 50 shots at a single aimpoint at 200 yards with rimfire for a while now. I'm not particularly skilled, or using a competition quality rifle off a high end rest. I shoot a home tweaked CZ 455 Varmint with a couple of Lilja barrels and a Sinclair F-Class bipod off a wood bench...
www.snipershide.com Best results with 22lr at 200 yards for 50 consecutive shots
200 yards with rimfire
Finally had a no wind morning so I gave the Lapua Biathlon Xtreme a try. 50 shots at 200 yards with a CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod and bag This box was extremely erratic as the results and chrony numbers show. The Lapua X-Act did a bit better Brand/label/price is no...
www.snipershide.com Last edited:
You are right on all accounts ... I'd never thought of accuracy in terms of group size. I'm banning myself for the rest of the day.
If I could do this (positional shooting) I would win ever 22PRS/MARS match I shot!!!
I'm pretty new to this but I'm with @DFOOSKING if you cant build a position quickly and negotiate obstacles and shoot in wierd positions it doesn't matter how good the rifle is shooting off a bench. 2 mil of wobble on a 2moa target is a big miss 99% of the time.
some useful thoughts and stuff here. my thing with wind 3-14mph (v rarely get less) is moa or less @50; hope for moa @ 100; 200 til skills increase 3 moa. solid tripod rest and rear bag. use good ammo tac 22 or "better" i.e. sk,eley,rws. decent rifles-anshutz,457 mtr,so limiting factor is me.
Sorry, I was being lazy. But as Justin said I was agreeing with his feelings of top level accuracy is. If a rifle and ammo combination can fairly consistently hold half MOA or less at 50 yards and around 3/4 MOA at 100 yards your getting there. But the hard part is how you define consistency…
@jbell
Isn't consistency self defined by each shooter and related to his/her goal? For example, if your goal is holding 0.5 MOA or less at 50yd 90% or more of the time and you accomplish that nine out of ten times at the range your marksmanship is consistent. If only eight out of ten times your marksmanship is not consistent. For less accomplished shooters the goal could be 1.0 MOA or less at 50yd 50% or more of the time at the range and you achieve that 6 times.......
Put shortly, consistency is in the eye of the beholder.
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Isn't consistency self defined by each shooter?
Ummmmm.......nope.
Everyone is a critic.
All ya' have to do is look at y'er target and ask y'erself: Did I hit what I aimed at?
Am I meeting the requirements of Rule #1, or am I just ending up in the general vicinity?
Ummmmm.......nope.
Everyone is a critic.
All ya' have to do is look at y'er target and ask y'erself: Did I hit what I aimed at?
Am I meeting the requirements of Rule #1, or am I just ending up in the general vicinity?
Rule #1, to hit what's aimed at, is not regularly achievable for most shooters. It can only be an aspiration.All ya' have to do is look at y'er target and ask y'erself: Did I hit what I aimed at?
Am I meeting the requirements of Rule #1, or am I just ending up in the general vicinity?
Consistently hitting a small POA at 50 is more than a challenging experience -- unless someone skillfully shoots lot tested ammo using a very good rifle with an excellent and successfully tuned barrel.
1 moa or 0.5 inches of spread measured center to center, at 50 yards, right?
That's actually the easy part.
I can produce random acts of accuracy on a regular basis, if only group size is measured.
That doesn't mean I can meet the requirements of Rule #1.
Placing the center of that 5 shot group on point of aim is the hard part.
That's actually the easy part.
I can produce random acts of accuracy on a regular basis, if only group size is measured.
That doesn't mean I can meet the requirements of Rule #1.
Placing the center of that 5 shot group on point of aim is the hard part.
50y- .5” ctc
100y- 1.0” ctc
200y- 2.0” ctc
300y- 3.0” ctc
Basically 1 MOA at all ranges would give you a hit every time, assuming you are centered when you trip the trigger, have decent follow through, have read the wind correctly, your scope’s elevation dope is correct, and your gun/ammo’s cone of fire remains constant.
Nice linear progression there obx.
If the 22lr worked that way I could be amazing with a rifle.
My problem is the ballistics all turn out to be hyperbolic curves.
I just can't catch a break.
If the 22lr worked that way I could be amazing with a rifle.
My problem is the ballistics all turn out to be hyperbolic curves.
I just can't catch a break.
Lotta wisdom/experience in this post
1 moa at 300 yards
I gotta see this!!! What ammo you find that will do that Warren??This hasn’t been my experience with 22lr “barricade bench rest” matches and the 50y KYL. Yes, a puff of wind will blow the bullets around, but that target stand is more of a mental challenge than a shooting challenge..
Placing the center of that 5 shot group on point of aim is the hard part.
I think it does in small sampling groups like I shoot (15-30 shots max). I’m not a hard holding machine like a lot of dedicated folks, I’d say the 50rnd groups have a bit of human fatigue induced error, along with changes in bore temp/tracking-bearing surfaces, as well as environmentals. Folks with tunnels can control the last one, but I don’t know of anyone tracking bore temps, or taking the time in a tunnel to avoid fatigue.Nice linear progression there obx.
If the 22lr worked that way I could be amazing with a rifle.
My problem is the ballistics all turn out to be hyperbolic curves.
I just can't catch a break.
In short, if you can set your gun and pop off 5 shots in an MOA without match stress, your problems are not the gun or ammo. I’d be willing to bet 1/3 of production guns made today will do the job without tuning, if they are set-up properly.
Ruger Long Range Target, and Precision Rimfire
Tikka T-1X sporter and UPR
CZ Pro Varmint, Varmint Precision, or Long Range Precision
Bergara BMR, and B14-R
Anschutz 1710 HB, and 1710 XLR HB
Should all be able to reach that 1-MOA standard, and semi-customs/full custom rifles such as
Vudoo V22, and 360
Zermatt Arms Rim-X
Ultimatum Precision Deuce
most certainly should.
1 moa at 300 yards
Geco Bolt Rifle sir.
(Edited to add), You may have shot with Derek Heinrick who also fired on this same target with my rifle and then his own. He, Kenneth Gage, Ray Griggs, Richard Senn, an I were screwing around on steel out to 507yds.
I preferred to see what my gun was doing on paper after a recent tune, but stopped at 300 and switched to steel. I’ve invited you to come down and shoot with us on Facebook, and I’ll extend the same open hand here. I hope you will take me up on it.
Since folks think I’m cherry picking and bragging: Ray fired 5 rounds at 200yds on another day, through my 40XB that was under 1”, and that was with CCI SV.
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I would win every PRS match I ever shot if I had your gear (being a smart ass, becausethat is what Iam). I will make it down and shoot with you guys for sure. I just don't have the rifle or ammo that does it. If you have a 20fps ES that equates to a 3.72" vertical dispersion. I have never come close to getting a whole box of ammo with that small of an extreme spread.
I’ve heard from Ken that you are a top shelf competitor, understand you are talking to an anal retentive prick who finds it tiresome to be doubted when I state something. I gain nothing by lying to anyone, I’m not a mall ninja, fudd, or keyboard commando-sniper.
I get extreme satisfaction from sharing what I’ve experienced to help others. I learn something every blessed day, and will never attain the amount of knowledge I want. I’m also not afraid to admit when I’m wrong, don’t know, or did something stupid.
That’s why I’m here.
FYI, I am and have always been obx22 on the bulletin boards/forums (except for being warren on RFC way back when Giz had it).
If I have pride in something, it’s the friends I’ve made online, some of whom I’ve been blessed to meet, shoot with, and compete with. Take care.
Let me know when y'all are getting together to shoot in the next month..if I'm not shooting a match I'll come down. I'm relatively new to this rifle shooting and have lots to learn
I'm with you. I don't know what you are getting with a 50 rnd. group, at any distance, must less 200yds. How do you know what is going on. wind, bore temp. human, sun, and all the other stuff. I can see 10 - 5 shot groups ea. fired under the same conditions. I want to test the ammo and the gun, not myself. New ammo I fire a few on paper at 50yds. Then I go to steel at 100yds then on to 200yds. + Looking for vertical in the group. If i have good vertical I am good.
Mark
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If that is fairly common for your rifle and ammo then that is very impressive. What was the conditions when you shot this particular target (wind & temp)? Is this typical for any lot of Standard Velocity or just that particular one? What rifle again? Just curious…
Rifle: 2019 Bergara B14-R in their BMP stock. Set up the way I’ve written in the past, not just thrown together. 40MOA steel NightForce rail and 1.060“ MPA BA mount/ring assembly, Vortex SE in MOA. Factory trigger.
This was after tuning the action screws (torque). This day I didn’t chronograph, but from experience with the ammo believe it would have clocked 1065fps.
Ammo is Geco Bolt Rifle, purchased before the pricing insanity for less than $25. a brick.
Winds were light but fairly consistent with few gusts. My bullet drop app was fairly close until reaching 300, afterwards things got screwy. I’ve since learned to tweak to match true (real world) it by juggling bc and scope height, but after 300 I need range time to map things separately.
BTW my Geco ammo bears the RWS headstamp, I’m unaware of what it may correspond to in their house line-up.
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