What would you have done?

[desertrat1979]

Ok, for those not aware, there is an ongoing thread about a guy getting punched in the face, causing him to draw his firearm in self-defense, all in a crowded store on Black Friday. Lots of keyboard commandos jumping in with the "Well if it were me I would....."

Now there are conflicting stories, but it was mentioned that he either at one point aimed it at the shoppers, or the other story was he kept it at the low ready.

This thread is not to determine if he was right or wrong. One point that I brought up, was about the bystander shoppers in the store at the time and it got me thinking. While we all heard what others would do as the victims, what would you have done as a shopper? This specificly goes out to CCW holders. You and your family (if married and/or kids) are there, in line, and these events go down right in front of you.

Any LEO's, please refrain from posting. Most agencies and states have policies and legislation that would require an intervention and most agencies never consider you to be completely off duty.

Those that answer, use your states laws as the guidelines (if you choose to follow them), and not the area this event took place in. I am not looking for a debate, there is no judgmement being passed, in fact there is very little in right or wrong with your answers. Just curious how you others would react, and perhaps some have already been in a situation like this.

 

[Maggot]

Re: What would you have done?

Id whip out my MAC 10 and spray them down. To hell with consequences...

 

[Slapchop]

Re: What would you have done?

I know what I would have done. Especially if I had my family with me.

Let the shenanigans begin.

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what I would have done. </div></div>

Reading is clearly NOT your strong suit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Any LEO's, please refrain from posting. Most agencies and states have policies and legislation that would require an intervention and most agencies never consider you to be completely off duty. </div></div>

 

[Slapchop]

Re: What would you have done?

Like a stray mutt you just can't keep away lol.

If anything you're the one who can't read. DR ASKED for LEOs not to post, it wasn't a mandate. I decided NOT oblige him and post anyway.

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: What would you have done?

If the question asked was how to violate citizens rights or wipe your ass with the Constitution, you'd be my go to guy.

Thanks for playing, and good luck with your Stop and Frisk endeavors this weekend.

 

[jcfd2201]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks for playing, and good luck with your Stop and Frisk endeavors this weekend. </div></div>

Now that's funny!!!

Edit: I felt bad for not answering the OP's question.

I really think the best course of action had I been there with my wife and kids would have been to remove ourselves from the area. Job one is protecting my family, anyone else is secondary.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: What would you have done?

Wow, this went to hell rather quickly.

I know what I would have done too...

 

[Slapchop]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcfd2201</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks for playing, and good luck with your Stop and Frisk endeavors this weekend. </div></div>

Now that's funny!!! </div></div>

Hilarious! I'm on vacation till the new year but if you'd like for me to stop by and frisk you, the offer is still on the table.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, this went to hell rather quickly.

I know what I would have done too... </div></div>

It's what happens when someone like guy with nothing to add other than trolling the topic decides to make an appearance.

Usually happens wherever he posts.

 

[Grimm]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what I would have done. </div></div>

Reading is clearly NOT your strong suit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Any LEO's, please refrain from posting. Most agencies and states have policies and legislation that would require an intervention and most agencies never consider you to be completely off duty. </div></div></div></div>
I'd ignore him if I was an LEO with an opinion too, free country and stuff like that.


If some random dude punched me in the face with no provocation in a crowd press what reason would I have to draw a firearm. Even if I was legitimately threatened that seems like a foolhardy risk to everyone else. You know aside from an unnecessary escalation. If I thought I could; I'd proceed to beating the shit of the random dick. Likely ending in my almost inevitable bloody beat down. so in all likelyhood Id probably just be pissed off and go about my business.

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcfd2201</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks for playing, and good luck with your Stop and Frisk endeavors this weekend. </div></div>

Now that's funny!!! </div></div>

Hilarious! I'm on vacation till the new year but if you'd like for me to stop by and frisk you, the offer is still on the table.
</div></div>

Was this "vacation" Court Ordered?

 

[Graham]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those that answer, use your states laws as the guidelines... in fact there is very little in right or wrong with your answers.</div></div>Actually there are right and wrong answers, based in the laws of the State in which it happened. The important thing to get to those answers, unlike in the thread where the civilian shot at the tire of a fleeing automobile, is to have people ask the correct questions:

1) Is an assault with fists, without more, a felony or a misdemeanor in that State?

2) Is a punch in the face deadly force; meaning is it calculated to cause serious bodily harm?

3) Is there any duty to retreat prior to using deadly force?

Another good example as to why, if you don't have any empty-hand defensive tactics skills, maybe acquiring some would help you with options when you carry a firearm.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: What would you have done?

No, tax payer funded

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: What would you have done?

First priority is the safety of my family.

However your question is impossible to answer.

1. Most people thump their chest thinking they're the alpha male, realality proves otherwise.

2. Most people freeze under pressure, and fast decision making. I've seen it more than once.

3. Unless put into the same situation you will not know how you'll respond. Refer to #1-#2.

4. People lack training, this includes civilians and police alike.

5. My firearm would not be unholstered unless my family's or myself were in physical danger of death. Moving away from the escilade post hast would be the name of the game.

6. You and your life are not my priority. My wife and kids are, not myself, my wife and kids.

7. Do I have a problem with someone pulling a gun to protect themselves? Absolutely not. If a 215# bully came up and slammed a 150# guy then I can most definitely see the little guy pulling a gun, and rightly so. The little guy is not going to win the fight. Sorry folks size matters in a fight no matter how many Bruce Lee movies you've seen or how long you've trained under him.

 

[WyoJoe]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok, for those not aware, there is an ongoing thread about a guy getting punched in the face, causing him to draw his firearm in self-defense, all in a crowded store on Black Friday. Lots of keyboard commandos jumping in with the "Well if it were me I would....."

Now there are conflicting stories, but it was mentioned that he either at one point aimed it at the shoppers, or the other story was he kept it at the low ready.

This thread is not to determine if he was right or wrong. One point that I brought up, was about the bystander shoppers in the store at the time and it got me thinking. While we all heard what others would do as the victims, what would you have done as a shopper? This specificly goes out to CCW holders. You and your family (if married and/or kids) are there, in line, and these events go down right in front of you.

Any LEO's, please refrain from posting. Most agencies and states have policies and legislation that would require an intervention and most agencies never consider you to be completely off duty.

Those that answer, use your states laws as the guidelines (if you choose to follow them), and not the area this event took place in. I am not looking for a debate, there is no judgmement being passed, in fact there is very little in right or wrong with your answers. Just curious how you others would react, and perhaps some have already been in a situation like this. </div></div>

In my state we can carry concealed without a permit. I would more than likely be carrying.

My first priority would be to make sure my family is safe. Get them out of any line of fire.

After that do what I can to de-escalate the situation. Other people's safety is the second concern.

Fact is one person has already shown a weapon. If they are using it to protect their self, fine. Remember de-escalate. If they are targeting innocent bystanders they have to be stopped.

If I had to shoot someone in this situation as soon as that person is down and it is determined there are no other threats my weapon goes on the floor & my hands are in the air. The police will be along any second and I want them to know they are safe from me. I am allergic to being shot.

 

[MtnCreek]

Re: What would you have done?


If I were a shopper (bystander) when this happened, I would be looking for cover and / or an exit. Odds are I would have no idea who was the ‘good guy’ and who was the ‘bad guy’ anyway.

Boone,
On #7, I’ve beat the crap out of some folks a lot bigger than me and the worse ass whipping I’ve ever had was from a guy that I had about 5” and 40 lbs on. Like most other things, that’s not an absolute rule. If I were the little guy and drew a firearm when being attacked with fists, the size difference could aid me in legal defense (disparity of force).

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: What would you have done?

I know what most people would do... piss on themselves... don't know what I'd do, maybe exactly what most people would.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, this went to hell rather quickly.

I know what I would have done too... </div></div>

It's what happens when someone like guy with nothing to add other than trolling the topic decides to make an appearance.
</div></div>

I guess that's nothing like the equivalent of defiant trespass in a thread in which you've been specifically told because of your profession not to make an appearance.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: What would you have done?

I wouldn't get in the situation in the first place. But if obliged, a size twelve boot to the groin solves most problems. a crowded mob scene like that is no place to have a dispute with a firearm- most of the folks around you will freak the fuck out and possibly stampede, the rest will be seeing a gun and thinking the guy holding it is the one that needs his ass kicked. so IMHO, the only appropriate courses of action, even with my CCW, are going to be a boot to the pills, or seeing how security feels about said violent dildo being in their store. The second and third order effects of escalating with a firearm in a crowd are just not worth it. Besides, the best revenge would be to get security to kick his ass out before he can get that tickle-me-elmo, or cabbage patch doll for his little bastard kids. He'll catch enough hell from them to make up for it.

 

[High Binder]

Re: What would you have done?

Get the family out of there and them as a by-stander I'd whip out my phone and start recording.

I think we're missing one key piece of the puzzle. So you get punched in the face but are you about to get punched again or did the puncher walk away after the first punch? Without that key bit of info I don't think you can accurately speculate as to what you would next without articulating the separate scenarios.

Personally in either scenario I'd be bailing with cops on the phone while amping up a lawsuit against the puncher who would end up funding my next build. I have CCW but never carry so pulling a gun wouldn't be an option for me anyway.

Besides it makes much more sense to kill him years after you get your payday not before...

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Re: What would you have done?

I would do what I do ever year and stay away from shopping in a crowded store. If I had to be there it would because I was there with my wife who would be doing the shopping. In that case I would try and keep situational awareness of what I could see going on and do my best to protect my family. Once again I would not put myself in that situation. It's like deciding not to walk down a dark ally at 2 in the morning when you see a bunch of thugs at the other end, just doesn't make sense to go in there.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: What would you have done?

I think many of you are missing the point. The OP wants to know how you would react if you were a bystander to this whole matter, not if you were the dude receiving a fist to the face.

If I were nearby with my family, I'd be looking to beat a hasty retreat. Brandishing a second firearm would seem to accomplish nothing good if I'm able to get myself and family to safety. Now, if the dude who got punched in the face manages to threaten my family in the process of brandishing his firearm, then there will be a different conversation.

 

[Pok]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think many of you are missing the point. The OP wants to know how you would react if you were a bystander to this whole matter, not if you were the dude receiving a fist to the face.

If I were nearby with my family, I'd be looking to beat a hasty retreat. Brandishing a second firearm would seem to accomplish nothing good if I'm able to get myself and family to safety. Now, if the dude who got punched in the face manages to threaten my family in the process of brandishing his firearm, then there will be a different conversation. </div></div>

I didnt understand this topic as it was presented, until I read this.

As a shopper, witnessing a fight break out in which someone draws a firearm, I would immediately move my family to cover. The issue between the two guys isnt mine, so I wouldnt involve myself unless I had to. I would call the police after my family was out of danger. If the trouble started to threaten us, I would have to draw my handgun, but I'd be at an extreme disadvantage if someone were already drawn on me. I would have to be getting shot at, to risk drawing my own in this scenario (

).

The situation should be pretty clear as far as what is happening in the time it takes to get your family out of harms way. What I mean is, by that time I think Id know if this was a fight that was now over, and the gun was a scare tactic, a defensive tactic, or if it was some psycho looking to shoot the place up.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think many of you are missing the point. The OP wants to know how you would react if you were a bystander to this whole matter, not if you were the dude receiving a fist to the face.</div></div>

You need to watch out for the effects of the initial attack and the continued possibility of a threat to life, whether the firearm is in the hands of the person who drew it, or in the hands of his attacker or a third party. Of course, you also should be looking for cover, thinking about an exit, and trying to raise the cavalry, the combination of which might be a bit much for mere mortals. With the information that we have, Monday morning quarterbacking only lands us pretty much immediately in conjecture territory. Nevertheless, while I wouldn't draw, I'd definitely be making cozy with my hand on the butt in as unobtrusive a fashion as possible.

 

[Outdoorsman9]

Re: What would you have done?

I would have pistol whipped the d-bag who punched me

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Re: What would you have done?

I've put in 50 years as a student and teacher of the martial arts. I'm also a biker - the kind that wears a hard earned patch on his back. I DO NOT look for trouble. I also have NO issues of meeting trouble head-on.

I'm I'm hit, I hit back with more force and in a vital spot. If I go down from being hit, I'm willing to go to jail for the ensuing extreme violence.

Bottom line: keep your hands off me and everything will be fine.

 

[hondo1312]

Re: What would you have done?

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

Here is an interesting article I found on ksccw.com; I think it is applicable to this discussion. I think getting my family to safety is priority number one, then total situation evaluation is number two.

Sometimes the sheep still fear the sheepdog as the wolf is baring its fangs.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think many of you are missing the point. The OP wants to know how you would react if you were a bystander to this whole matter, not if you were the dude receiving a fist to the face.

If I were nearby with my family, I'd be looking to beat a hasty retreat. Brandishing a second firearm would seem to accomplish nothing good if I'm able to get myself and family to safety. Now, if the dude who got punched in the face manages to threaten my family in the process of brandishing his firearm, then there will be a different conversation. </div></div>

If I were not involved, I'd be getting the hell out of the line of fire and calling the Police. yeah, it sounds like a cop-out (no pun intended), but there's a reason Police departments exist. And I'm not going to jail or getting myself or mine shot because I decided to play Mall Rambo when two dickheads decided to have an armed pissing contest in a store.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: What would you have done?

Which brings up a valid question- why does this problem exist in the first place? Why are we as a society accepting that having to deal with members of the aforementioned stampeding, and fighting over luxury items is a normal thing around the "holidays"? Why is it okay for civilized people to drop the act and become complete savages for a month out of the year when the meaning of the holiday was peace and good will toward others!?
end rant.

 

[WyoJoe]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

Here is an interesting article I found on ksccw.com; I think it is applicable to this discussion. I think getting my family to safety is priority number one, then total situation evaluation is number two.

Sometimes the sheep still fear the sheepdog as the wolf is baring its fangs. </div></div>

Excellent read!!

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Actually there are right and wrong answers, based in the laws of the State in which it happened. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Those that answer, use your states laws as the guidelines (if you choose to follow them), and not the area this event took place in. </div></div>

Some states differ very differently in their laws. Michigan, NY, Nv all may have a much different set of laws if a person chooses to act.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think many of you are missing the point. The OP wants to know how you would react if you were a bystander to this whole matter, not if you were the dude receiving a fist to the face.
</div></div>

This guy was paying attention.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pok
I didnt understand this topic as it was presented, until I read this.
[/quote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This thread is not to determine if he was right or wrong. One point that I brought up, was about the bystander shoppers in the store at the time and it got me thinking. <span style="color: #CC0000">While we all heard what others would do as the victims, what would you have done as a shopper?</span> This specificly goes out to CCW holders. You and your family (if married and/or kids) are there, in line, and these events go down right in front of you.
</div></div>

I thought I conveyed the situation it pretty well.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I were a shopper (bystander) when this happened, I would be looking for cover and / or an exit. Odds are I would have no idea who was the &#145;good guy&#146; and who was the &#145;bad guy&#146; anyway.
</div></div>

This one would be the most accurate and honest answer given.

WyoJoe mentioned de-escalation...Unless you are skilled and trained to do something like this, you may be stepping in over your head. Even if a uniformed cop shows up, that can still make a bad situation worse. Not saying its a bad idea, but consider the outcome.

I know that if I put distance between the situation and my family, and call the cops and let them handle it, my family and myself are safe. To me, if there is the slightest chance that my actions could do more harm than good, I will stand down without hesitation. But thats just me.

That is how I would handle it from a non-LE perspective.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anvil Xray</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think many of you are missing the point. The OP wants to know how you would react if you were a bystander to this whole matter, not if you were the dude receiving a fist to the face.

If I were nearby with my family, I'd be looking to beat a hasty retreat. Brandishing a second firearm would seem to accomplish nothing good if I'm able to get myself and family to safety. Now, if the dude who got punched in the face manages to threaten my family in the process of brandishing his firearm, then there will be a different conversation. </div></div>

If I were not involved, I'd be getting the hell out of the line of fire and calling the Police. yeah, it sounds like a cop-out (no pun intended), but there's a reason Police departments exist. And I'm not going to jail or getting myself or mine shot because I decided to play Mall Rambo when two dickheads decided to have an armed pissing contest in a store.</div></div>

Its not a cop-out. No one has a duty to place themselves at risk for injury or death to handle random disputes. Some would like to make an assault on your manhood for that, and in most cases, those that do such are probably cowards themselves, or just careless in their safety or the safety of others.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: What would you have done?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sometimes the sheep still fear the sheepdog as the wolf is baring its fangs.</div></div>

What happens when I'm not paying 100% attention when a fight breaks out in an adjacent lane - how do I know which one is the sheepdog, which one is the wolf, and what about all the sheep standing in the background? What happens when two sheepdog draw down on each other in a crowd full of sheep? Does a sheepdog become a wolf when it inadvertently turns against the sheep?

 

[hondo1312]

Re: What would you have done?

Excellent questions that (in my opinion) can't be answered until one evaluates the total situation. After reading the article I linked, I would be very hesitant to intervene in anything. I would also be wary of anyone else intervening. I wouldn't blame anyone (sheep or sheepdog) for being a little concerned when a firearm was produced in a checkout line during an altercation, either by the original people in the altercation or a third party.

My last statement in my previous post was more about human nature for people (sheep) NOT being aware of someone else's (sheepdog) good intentions. I apologize if it came off as a knock against the sheep; that certainly wasn't my intention.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: What would you have done?

I think the term sheep used to describe people has been done so much it, and so inaccurately, it has no meaning. EVERYONE can be described as a sheep, it all just depends on which flock you are with and which shepard is leading you.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: What would you have done?

I figure I could die waiting for someone to come to my rescue, but I'll still take a moment to wait and see.

Personally, I'd never have been there in the first place. After all, participation in the Black Friday festivities is a voluntary act.

I figure, right or wrong, such participation is highly likely to involve a higher than average likelihood for unpleasant consequences. Seen in that light, I'd have to assume at least part of the responsibility for such consequences. Personally, I'm not so wedded to my buckage that I'm going to place me and mine in harm's way just to gain some commercial advantage.

I won't comment on the wisdom of packing heat when deliberately entering a higher risk area that I can just as easily forego. If I did, I'd take that moment to wait and see before grabbing heat and whipping it out, whether I intended a discharge or not.

One of my own basic rules is to be sure of my target and what lies beyond; and a shopping throng is definitely out of that category, for me anyway.

As in the other thread, I point out that I stayed home and did my shopping the next day. I was virtually alone in the big box store, and all the previous day's discounts and availability were still in effect.

If me no 'ifs', this is fact, as witnessed by myself.

Greg

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: What would you have done?

Something else to consider. Something like this can also happen on any other day as well. But you are correct. A Black Friday event does present a much higher risk factor though.

 

[athhud]

Re: What would you have done?

There are so many variables that would dictate my response, that it is impossible to give an absolute answer. Most likely, I would not have been in the situation in the first place. I certainly would not have escalated such a trivial matter to a physical altercation. If some psycho just blind sides me though, my response would weigh heavily on my initial assessment of the situation. If he hits like a girl, I may just laugh in his face. If he clocks me with one lick and is done, I'll do whatever is necessary to resolve the situation without escalating it. If he knocks me to the ground and proceeds to follow up with another punch or kick, I will be doing my best to scramble away. If I'm cornered or can't go anywhere, I'm going to do whatever it takes to gain the upper hand. If that means shooting him, then that's what will happen. My personal rules for CCW are:

1. I will not ever let anyone know I have a weapon until I choose to use it. I don't carry to scare someone off. I carry to kill someone that is trying to kill me. If I draw, I'm squeezing the trigger.

2. I will not fire on a target whose range exceeds the range of the threat. If he is unarmed, I'm not firing unless he is within arms reach. If he is armed with a knife, I'm not firing until I feel threatened by the knife. That may be more or less than 21 feet, it just depends. Within those ranges, I'm extremely confident in my abilities and my ammunition. Bystander casualties will most likely be extremely low, but shit does happen.

3. If he has a firearm, all bets are off. I'm doing whatever it takes to protect myself and those I love. If I accidentally shoot your grandmother, I'm sorry, I'll send flowers.

The only thing I can guarantee is this: If I see a firearm pointed in my direction, I'm getting the fuck out its line of trajectory! I don't care what the armed citizen's reason for drawing is. I don't care who is within the constraints of the law in the altercation. I don't care how well trained the guy is with that firearm. I don't care what he does at a red light. I'm getting the Hell out of Dodge and dragging my loved ones with me.

With all of that said, if I am an innocent bystander and someone in the crowd draws a weapon it is my responsibility to preserve my health and his responsibility to preserve his. If he intentionally impedes my duty, I will impede his. Until that happens, what method he uses to defend himself is none of my business.