Whats a "good" 100 yard group size?

[*Face*]

I just started shooting out to 100 yards and getting used to the distance. My best 5shot group of the day was ~0.5" using SK standard plus. The rest were between 0.75 - 1.00"

I know I'd be better off using something like SK long range, but I can't find any at the moment..so SK standard is I have currently to practice with.

 

[BowChamp]

Tried my hand at 100yds awhile back with Eley Semi Auto Benchrest Precision ammo. Averaged .675" for 6 groups. Best group was .455".

Sounds like you should join in on the fun!!

William Buck Memorial Postal Matches

Welcome to the 2024 William Buck Memorial Postal Matches! There are 7 rimfire matches you can participate in, 1) Iron Sight rifle 50 yards* 2) Factory rifle 50 yards* 3) Match-Grade rifle 50 yards* 4) Unlimited rifle 50 yards* 5) Mini Palma for scoped rifles 100 yards* 6) JBell 6x5 Match for...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Emerson0311]

At 100, 3 consecutive ten shot groups under 1” is extremely good. 5 shot Rimfire groups don’t tell the true story. The shooters who talk about groups regularly under 1” at 100 very rarely show several 10 shot groups in a row. That would win many BR comps.

 

[*Face*]

At 100, 3 consecutive ten shot groups under 1” is extremely good. 5 shot Rimfire groups don’t tell the true story. The shooters who talk about groups regularly under 1” at 100 very rarely show several 10 shot groups in a row. That would win many BR comps.

Good to know, i'll switch to doing 10shot groups

 

[Emerson0311]

Good to know, i'll switch to doing 10shot groups

The x-factor is the inconsistency of Rimfire ammo, even top end “match” ammo. I watched one today add 30% to my group size as the rifle stayed dead still through the shot.

 

[Mainer]

I just started shooting out to 100 yards and getting used to the distance. My best 5shot group of the day was ~0.5" using SK standard plus. The rest were between 0.75 - 1.00"

I know I'd be better off using something like SK long range, but I can't find any at the moment..so SK standard is I have currently to practice with.

I am envious! What are you using for a rifle?

 

[justin amateur]

At 100 yards with 22lr...

Anything that impacts within 3/4 inch of point of aim is good.
Anything that hits within 1/2 inch of point of aim is excellent.
Anything that hits within 1/4 inch as unusual.
Punching center is unlikely.

Groups don't mean anything, if you can't hit what you aim at, eh?

 

[Mainer]

Groups don't mean anything if you can't hit what you aim at, eh?

LOL! Perhaps, but if you can consistently shoot good groups, hitting what you aim at is simply a matter of scope adjustment, right?

 

[justin amateur]

I used to think that, M.
I can shoot sub moa groups at 50, 100 and 200 yards with rimfire.
Group size had me thinking I had it all figured out.
It wasn't until I tried shooting for score, that I learned I was wrong.

 

[Mainer]

I used to think that, M.
I can shoot sub moa groups at 50, 100 and 200 yards with rimfire.
It wasn't until I tried shooting for score, that I learned that I was wrong.

OK, I see what you mean. MOA at 200 yds is 2". If your target is 1/2" even a correctly adjusted scope is likely to miss. However, is it reasonable to expect 1/4 MOA accuracy from any mass-produced ammo?

Surely, we have to expect some misses. After all, we don't live in a perfect world.

 

[Haney]

I used to think that, M.
I can shoot sub moa groups at 50, 100 and 200 yards with rimfire.
Group size had me thinking I had it all figured out.
It wasn't until I tried shooting for score, that I learned I was wrong.

He asked about groups . Not hitting exactly what he aiming at . Score competition includes the shooter much more and has Zero to do with what the subject is .

OP, you are doing just fine . A bigger sample size with 10 shot groups will show consistency .

 

[justin amateur]

I have a problem with groups.
They lie to me. Made me think I was doing better than I was.
Look, sub moa 5 shot clusters all over the target.
I am bad to the bone and nation wide....Not!

I use OnTarget software to measure group size.
Part of the software analysis is distance from group center to point of aim
and aggregate group size of all the groups on that target.
No two groups centered in the same spot relative to point of aim
and the aggregate size was 2 or 3 times larger than average group size.
I was producing random acts of accuracy, not consistent trajectories.

Groups are for adjusting y'er scope and checking cartridge quality.
Shooting for score will tell you more, about what is really happening.
That's why folks don't like it, hard on the ego.

 

[RTH1800]

At 100 yards with 22lr...

Anything that impacts within 3/4 inch of point of aim is good.
Anything that hits within 1/2 inch of point of aim is excellent.
Anything that hits within 1/4 inch as unusual.
Punching center is unlikely.

Groups don't mean anything, if you can't hit what you aim at, eh?

Too funny.
Groups tell a huge amount. Show me a rifle that hits what you aim at at 100 yards and you’re looking at a rifle that groups well. (Unless you are aiming at a barn.)

Most do not sight to hit POA. Impacts change the target. Once done, just dial over to point of aim.
I like what you post but your fascination with moving groups is baffling.

Just as with any other round, conditions change group impact. That is the challenge of RF. The conditions matter. Adjust the scope or irons and move on. It’s so simple.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Here are my last 50, 75, and 100 yard ten shot groups. I have some work to do on my part because I don’t shoot prone a lot, and these were all shot prone. These were all shot using a 16 inch barreled CZ 457 varmint in a manners stock, shooting Eley Team flat nose. I still want to shoot 125 and 150 to see how it sits, maybe try for further eventually. Groups aren’t “zeroed”, just shot where they landed

 

[Hoser]

Anything under an inch is doing pretty good.

 

[Hoser]

Groups are for adjusting y'er scope and checking cartridge quality.
Shooting for score will tell you more, about what is really happening.
That's why folks don't like it, hard on the ego.

Thats just like your opinion man.

Not wrong, not right. But, I think, more wrong than right.

 

[RTH1800]

If your POI is shifting for any reason other than conditions you have an equipment or technique issue.

 

[MarkCZ]

I just started shooting out to 100 yards and getting used to the distance. My best 5shot group of the day was ~0.5" using SK standard plus. The rest were between 0.75 - 1.00"

I know I'd be better off using something like SK long range, but I can't find any at the moment..so SK standard is I have currently to practice with.

What you are shooting is good. I like multi 5 shot group and Agg the groups. IMO At what point are you testing yourself ( gun handling, wind, etc), not the gun and ammo with 10 and more shot groups. The groups above are showing wind in the group, would you see less wind 5 shot groups. Would it be better to shoot 6 5 shot groups VS 3 10 shot.

 

[RTH1800]

So as to not further derail this I’ll start a new thread. WHAT YOU AIMED AT PART 3

 

[justin amateur]

Y'er right hoser, just another opinion as are all the rest.

Groups are easy....no thinking about wind changes over time.
Time from first shot to last in 5 shots, minimal.

Shooting for score? 30 minutes, or more, to make 50 shots.
Conditions shift during that extended interval.
That's why groups made me think I was doing better than I was.

Even with wind flags, the variations in ammo quality
and conditions, kick my butt.

I know, that's my problem, not anyone else's.

 

[*Face*]

I am envious! What are you using for a rifle?

b14r barreled action thar I dropped into an MPA BA comp chassis

 

[*Face*]

He asked about groups . Not hitting exactly what he aiming at . Score competition includes the shooter much more and has Zero to do with what the subject is .

OP, you are doing just fine . A bigger sample size with 10 shot groups will show consistency .

Sorry wasn't trying to start a big debate over groups vs POA..I just wanted a general gauge of how my setup was doing. It's easy to find a bunch of info for .22lr @ 50 yards. Don't see much talked about @ 100 yards so that's why I was just curious

I appreciate all the replies. I'll try doing some POA drills @ 50 & 100 yards

 

[Emerson0311]

Sorry wasn't trying to start a big debate over groups vs POA..I just wanted a general gauge of how my setup was doing. It's easy to find a much of info for .22lr @ 50 yards. Don't see much talked about @ 100 yards so that's why I was just curious

I appreciate all the replies. I'll try doing some POA drills @ 50 & 100 yards

Justin is not wrong. If he shot a 30 rnd group over 30 min it would look the same. The angst between single shots at 1 bull at a time vs shooting groups is like gays and female escorts arguing about blow job techniques.

 

[grauhanen]

At 100 yards with 22lr...
Groups don't mean anything, if you can't hit what you aim at, eh?

At 100 yards, few shooters can be fortunate enough to have ammo, rifle, and skill to hit the POA repeatedly and consecutively. If you consistently don't hit what you aim at over 100 yards -- a binary issue of success or failure -- there's going to be a great deal of failure.

Emerson's standard for good results of a certain number of consecutive ten-shot groups under one inch is a very reasonable one. As Emerson notes, the greatest challenge at 100 is the inconsistency of rimfire ammo. Many lots of higher tier ammo such as Midas + will often be insufficiently consistent to shoot more than a half-dozen or so consecutive sub-one inch ten-shot groups at 100.

 

[acudaowner]

a good group size for you might depend on what you get . start with a paper plate put all your shots on it then shrink it and repeat putting all your shots on the ever shrinking target .. by the time you get to a 1/4 '' target you will know what's a good group and what you are able to shoot keep at it till you get better and better and your target gets smaller and smaller . let the cheap dots be your guide

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Sorry wasn't trying to start a big debate over groups vs POA..I just wanted a general gauge of how my setup was doing. It's easy to find a much of info for .22lr @ 50 yards. Don't see much talked about @ 100 yards so that's why I was just curious

I appreciate all the replies. I'll try doing some POA drills @ 50 & 100 yards

I have seen if the rifle is capable at 100 yds. ammo will be the main factor. just be aware that ammo selection is very important in shooting consistently at 100yds. so sometimes it isn't you or the rifle.

Lee

 

[308pirate]

Good 10 shot groups for me at 100 yd would be 1" to 1.5" from a rifle, 1" to 2" from a carbine with iron sights, using 62 gr or heavier high quality ammo, in all standing, sitting, and prone shooting positions.

This conversation is about precision rimfire rifles almost always shot prone or from a bench with some sort of external support.

 

[justin amateur]

If you want some cheap entertainment, try this target at 100 yards.



Click on the pop-out at the top right corner of the image for the download option.
Download pdf, open, print full size (100%) 8.5"x11" (letter)
10 inch dimension check at left side border.

1 shot sent to each bull.
See if you can keep 25 shots on/inside the 100 yard moa ring.

Compare y'er results to y'er 5 shot groups.

Mine aren't good enough to claim sub-moa all day long.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

If you want some cheap entertainment, try this target at 100 yards.



Click on the pop-out at the top right corner of the image for the download option.
Download pdf, open, print full size (100%) 8.5"x11" (letter)
10 inch dimension check at left side border.

1 shot sent to each bull.
See if you can keep 25 shots on/inside the 100 yard moa ring.

Compare y'er results to y'er 5 shot groups.

Mine aren't good enough to claim sub-moa all day long.

THANKS for this. I'm going to see if I can clone it in order to change the middle dot and thick inner circle to red instead of black. With the days getting shorter, I'll no doubt be shooting with targets in the shadows... well, hey, I guess I could actually use the pretty lighted reticles...

(And happy day, this target scaled correctly on my printer - outer ring is precisely 1.047 inches, next ring 0.5235 inches, etc. - just had to make sure the print options had scale=100%)

 

[justin amateur]

@DownhillFromHere

Red centers are an easy change for my cadd software

 

[*Face*]

If you want some cheap entertainment, try this target at 100 yards.



Click on the pop-out at the top right corner of the image for the download option.
Download pdf, open, print full size (100%) 8.5"x11" (letter)
10 inch dimension check at left side border.

1 shot sent to each bull.
See if you can keep 25 shots on/inside the 100 yard moa ring.

Compare y'er results to y'er 5 shot groups.

Mine aren't good enough to claim sub-moa all day long.

Will definitely try this out, thanks!

 

[308pirate]

If you want some cheap entertainment, try this target at 100 yards.



Click on the pop-out at the top right corner of the image for the download option.
Download pdf, open, print full size (100%) 8.5"x11" (letter)
10 inch dimension check at left side border.

1 shot sent to each bull.
See if you can keep 25 shots on/inside the 100 yard moa ring.

Compare y'er results to y'er 5 shot groups.

Mine aren't good enough to claim sub-moa all day long.

Don't you understand the fact that groups and single shots on multiple targets measure two different sets of variables?

One isn't superior to the other.

 

[justin amateur]

Do I understand?

Yep.

Does shooting groups indicate that I'm controlling the placement of the shot?

No.

It indicates that for those 5 or 10 shots, conditions and trajectories were similar, or not.

When each group shifts location relative to point of aim,
and the total aggregate size is double or triple average group size,
I'm proving that I'm not doing as well as I'd like, neither is the ammunition.

Each range trip, I typically send a few groups to warm up,
dial my scope to the center of the last group,
which fits the current conditions and ammo being used.

Then I attempt to keep my groups inside those moa rings
or send one shot at each bull to verify any skill improvement on my end.
Rarely is the ammunition, or my ability to read wind, capable of sub moa results.

The purpose of a firearm is to hit where I'm aiming, right?
If I'm not, then I'm not accomplishing what I intended, correct?

When my groups are wandering around at random
and aren't impacting at the same location relative to point of aim,
then I'm just lobbing bullets downrange and hoping it all works out.
That's not my intent.

It's rimfire, cartridge variations and wind kick my butt.
A few small groups don't indicate I'm getting the job done.

As Hoser stated earlier, it's my point of view, not one you have to agree with.

 

[308pirate]

Do I understand?

Yep.

Does shooting groups indicate that I'm controlling the placement of the shot?

No.

It indicates that for those 5 or 10 shots, conditions and trajectories were similar, or not.

When each group shifts location relative to point of aim,
and the total aggregate size is double or triple average group size,
I'm proving that I'm not doing as well as I'd like, neither is the ammunition.

Each range trip, I typically send a few groups to warm up,
dial my scope to the center of the last group,
which fits the current conditions and ammo being used.

Then I attempt to keep my groups inside those moa rings
or send one shot at each bull to verify any skill improvement on my end.
Rarely is the ammunition, or my ability to read wind, capable of sub moa results.

You don't need to keep explaining.

We all understand the difference and use both methods to get the particular information we need about the complete rifle/shooter/ammo system.

 

[justin amateur]

You got it 308.

 

[hiddenshooter]

OK, I see what you mean. MOA at 200 yds is 2". If your target is 1/2" even a correctly adjusted scope is likely to miss. However, is it reasonable to expect 1/4 MOA accuracy from any mass-produced ammo?

Surely, we have to expect some misses. After all, we don't live in a perfect world.

Definitely agree with what he said. Consistant eye relief, head position etc will move tight groups around. Try shooting 6 or more groups of 5 shots or more, then compare.

 

[epeet]

Anything under 1.25 inches, consistently, is excellent, incredible even. Rimfire is a very dangerous place to look at your best groups as "whats possible" as opposed to an extreme end of the probability bell curve. If you want to chase lot numbers of Center-X or Midas, sure, you might be able to shrink things down, but at the point you are spending $.50 per trigger pull on a rimfire... how much fun are you having?

I shoot thousand and thousands of rounds of CCI SV every year. For me, two inches at 100 is fine, and I can size my steel to account for some of this.

 

[epeet]

Don't you understand the fact that groups and single shots on multiple targets measure two different sets of variables?

One isn't superior to the other.

I don't understand this. I believe both methods measure the exact same thing, which is variance in bullet dispersion from point of aim. Yes some people shoot groups with a few MOA of offset so they don't ruin their aiming point, but fundamentally both methods capture the same data point, which most people would describe as "relative accuracy".

For example, if I shot 10 single shots at 10 identical targetsI would expect the total dispersion of those ten shots to be similar to the group generated by shooting ten times at a single target.

 

[Merc69]

I am new to the group but saw this thread an wanted to show that tight groups can be had at 100 yards with a 22. This photo is from 2002 time frame at Camp Perry. The groups were 10 shots and this was the 100 yard phase of the Dewar Match, Iron Sights. This was also shot using a sling not a bag or bipod. This was several years ago and I am looking to return to competitive shooting and looking at the PRS 22 type shooting.

 

[justin amateur]

That ^^^^^ is what I aspire to.

I can shoot small groups.
It's shooting for score that evades me.

I've been told that if you can shoot tiny groups,
then there's no problem punching center.
I haven't found that to work in my favor.


Try it y'erself.
Shoot some groups, then when y'er warmed up
and the scope is dialed in, shoot for score.
I hope y'er results are better than mine.

 

[drglock]

Haven’t shot my 22 since last months match and really hadn’t shot it other than checking zero before a match. @justin amateur inspired me to hit what I was aiming at.
50 yards shot prone with rear bag, wind was 6-8mph from my 5:00 but my house was blocking some of this. Other than shooting 5 at the first target to get warmed up the rest are 49 one shots. Holes are .17 if I remember correctly.
RimX
Shilen ratchet 1-16
SK LRM

Some people will say I missed some but I’ll say I was 100% on hits. Hit the 12”x12” with every shot

 

[308pirate]

For example, if I shot 10 single shots at 10 identical targetsI would expect the total dispersion of those ten shots to be similar to the group generated by shooting ten times at a single target.

OK

Prove it with an experiment

 

[308pirate]

That ^^^^^ is what I aspire to

Then shift the majority of your focus away from the rifle and ammunition and towards marksmanship fundamentals.

 

[*Face*]

Haven’t shot my 22 since last months match and really hadn’t shot it other than checking zero before a match. @justin amateur inspired me to hit what I was aiming at.
50 yards shot prone with rear bag, wind was 6-8mph from my 5:00 but my house was blocking some of this. Other than shooting 5 at the first target to get warmed up the rest are 49 one shots. Holes are .17 if I remember correctly.
RimX
Shilen ratchet 1-16
SK LRM
View attachment 8242605View attachment 8242607
Some people will say I missed some but I’ll say I was 100% on hits. Hit the 12”x12” with every shot

I'm confused, are you trying to keyhole your shots thru those .17 holes?

 

[drglock]

I'm confused, are you trying to keyhole your shots thru those .17 holes?

That’s the aiming spots and yes .

 

[justin amateur]

308, if it was only that easy.

I'm limited by my ability to time the squeeze to fit the local conditions,
the quality of the cartridges purchased and the distance attempted.

My F-Class 223 with hand loads is sub-moa at 200 yards, for score.
Same shooter, half the distance, with rimfire, 1.5 moa on a good day, same style target.
The difference is the ammunition. Just not good enough.

I have compared groups to one dot one shot targets.
Results with attempting to punch center produced less spread.
The groups aggregate spread was larger than the individual dots aggregate spread.

 

[Mainer]

Fishing is not always catching, and shooting is not always hitting. If that were not true, we would all quickly get bored and quit.

 

[308pirate]

While marksmanship fundamentals are king, I think part of the issue is that the rifles most of you all are using are just not capable of the accuracy that @Merc69 has displayed.

He doesn't say what he used to shoot those scores, but I'm willing to bet it was an Anschutz match rifle not too dissimilar to what was used by many World Cup and Olympic champions at the time.

Such rifles outclass just about everything you can pay less than $5K today.

Have a look at a modern-day example: https://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/store/p42/2013_Target_in_2018_Precise_Stock_(010862).html

 

[Defender32]

OP @*Face* what is your intentions for this rifle? Is it just shooting for fun or are you competing with it for NRL22, PRS Rim Fire, Benchrest or something else?

Everyone's opinion in this thread is great on group size and how to achieve the group size numbers you want. Each discipline IMO requires/ suggests you do it a different way to suit the norm of the target engaged. If the groups are better than 1" consistently for the ammo you have and the shooting you like to do then it's AWESOME. Just know that when you change lots &/or brands that group size and POA/POI can and will change. adjust your zero accordingly and keep banging away at your targets.

For me and my discipline (NRL22/ PRS RimFire) I want my ammo to be 1" or better at 100Y and carry MOA or better to 300y I also know weather is going to vary that. I also know my targets are going to be 2X MOA for the average 100Y and beyond. This means I have to practice my positional shooting groups and keep my NPA, Trigger Press and breathing consistent and build a solid position to shoot from.

Keep doing what you're doing and practice will make you more consistent.

 

[308pirate]

308, if it was only that easy.

I'm limited by my ability to time the squeeze to fit the local conditions,
the quality of the cartridges purchased and the distance attempted.

And there you have it. High opinion and low commitment.