What's the better M80?

[sevensix2]

I've got a bunch of PMC XTAC and Lake City M80. Does anyone have any comparison experience with these two rounds? I'm looking to find which is better at range out to say 500 yards. Unfortunately I only have access to 100 yards right now. At 100 the groups are both great and pretty much comparable. It does seem like the XTAC hits the steel harder, but I can only judge that by sound and visible impact. The XTAC is an FMJBT, but beyond that what would you find gentlemen choose between those two for basic M80 use. For longer ranges I also have a stock of Federal SMK 168 and Lake City M118LR, but with current prices and availability I won't be shooting any of that until I can get to a much longer range, which could be some time away.
I'm looking for info on accuracy, velocity and terminal ballistics.
Thanks in advance.

 

[PBWalsh]

Probably depends in the rifle. Mine doesn’t really like IMI 150 FMJBT or Winchester M80. S&B and ZSR M80 appear to be pretty consistent out to 520 and even share the same zero as my match load (IMI M118LR).

If both are accurate for you at 100, the. it depends on how consistent the actual round is. If you don’t have access to longer range to gather data, consider buying a chronograph. It should give you a better idea if ES/SD.

 

[BCP]

Both would be fine. I've never had issues with winchester, PMC, lake city, the foreign stuff is a mixed bag, current ZSR has a reputation for exploding

 

[acudaowner]

any of the 8.3 million fire work stores dotting the road way going from north Carolina , south Carolina , and Georgia m80's can be found everywhere not only do they have fire works and peaches to die for they also have a titty bar at every stop it's amazing titties , fire works and peaches as far as the eye can see it could bring a man to a single tear ..

 

[PBWalsh]

Both would be fine. I've never had issues with winchester, PMC, lake city, the foreign stuff is a mixed bag, current ZSR has a reputation for exploding

Yeah I’ve had two popped primers with ZSR. Rifle was fine thankfully. I am not saying to buy ZSR, just speaking with what I have used lol.

 

[357Max]

Give the Norma a try. If your gun likes it then you’ll also have good brass to reload.

Aguila is absolute garbage.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I like LC M-80, and IMI M-80; mainly for the brass to reload. USGI (including LC) and IMI each use a heavier brass configuration. None of the M-80 loads are intended to deliver peak accuracy; their intent is for fire suppression during maneuver warfare. This is why the services have separate Sniper/Match loads like M-855, etc. To me, this is not a big deal, since I consider the M-80 loading as an area denial item, and not a Match load.

LC and IMI are comparable, and IMI may be preferable, by a squeek.

PMC is made in Korea. Not a downgrade by any means, but my experience was that while I got some exceptional performance out of some of the PMC, I also got not-so-exceptional performance out of other, identical boxes of it.

My overall preference is for IMI because it and LC have the better brass; and that brass is specifically designed to tolerate the utterly brutal extraction operation of the M14/M1A. No other Semi treats fired brass as badly, which is why the US NATA cartridge case is a much beefier animal. For all intents and purposes LC and IMI can be treated as identical. The IMI Semi-Auto Match 168 is my 20" PA-10's favorite load.

But in any military case, even LC and IMI, have a 3 reloadings limit on them.

To answer your initial question, I would prefer the LC over the PMC.

Military handload recipes should not be used in commercial brass (Rem, Win, Fed, etc.) without at least a 1gr reduction in charge weight, despite the increased capacity in commercial brass..

Before anyone gets the idea I'm dissing these things, I state that I am simply paraphrasing Glenn Zediker, who literally wrote the book on reloading for the M-14. I worship at his feet on this subject.

I am currently working up a large batch of M-80 on my press, and all the cases will be IMI. The second batch will be made to M-855 specs.

Greg

 

[TheOE800]

Give the Norma a try. If your gun likes it then you’ll also have good brass to reload.
View attachment 8136469

Aguila is absolute garbage.

I don’t know if Norma is currently producing the 150gr tactical line. They had a 147gr product in the last year or so that was recalled.

 

[sevensix2]

Give the Norma a try. If your gun likes it then you’ll also have good brass to reload.
View attachment 8136469

Aguila is absolute garbage.

Norma has been doing some great work lately. I tested their whitetail line with great result and will use it next season. I have always run steel case thru my various AK rifles I've owned over the years. A few months ago I bought a bunch of Norma 123 and got just a hair over MOA at 100 out of my Sam7sf. I've also heard great things about their 168/175 offerings.

 

[sevensix2]

Probably depends in the rifle. Mine doesn’t really like IMI 150 FMJBT or Winchester M80. S&B and ZSR M80 appear to be pretty consistent out to 520 and even share the same zero as my match load (IMI M118LR).

If both are accurate for you at 100, the. it depends on how consistent the actual round is. If you don’t have access to longer range to gather data, consider buying a chronograph. It should give you a better idea if ES/SD.

I just might. The XTAC says it's 2800 fps, Lake City 2750. I don't think those numbers can be trusted consistently.

 

[sevensix2]

Both would be fine. I've never had issues with winchester, PMC, lake city, the foreign stuff is a mixed bag, current ZSR has a reputation for exploding

I'm using an M&P10 with an 18" bbl. The only ammo I've ever had issues with was a batch of ZQ1 turkshit that seemed under powered and wouldn't cycle unless the bolt was wetter than a prom queen. I've run 1000s of Tul 150 and a bunch of Wolf 145s with zero issues and it's been accurate enough to ring steel, but I still wouldn't load it as a primary. I was looking at ZSR, but what info I could find is the same as yours so it's out of the question. Right now I've got all my mags loaded with the XTAC and Federal SMK along with a dozen or so M118 mags loaded with that ammo. My main reason for loading the XTAC is that I always knock the plates off the hangers at my local range with it.

 

[sevensix2]

I like LC M-80, and IMI M-80; mainly for the brass to reload. USGI (including LC) and IMI each use a heavier brass configuration. None of the M-80 loads are intended to deliver peak accuracy; their intent is for fire suppression during maneuver warfare. This is why the services have separate Sniper/Match loads like M-855, etc. To me, this is not a big deal, since I consider the M-80 loading as an area denial item, and not a Match load.

LC and IMI are comparable, and IMI may be preferable, by a squeek.

PMC is made in Korea. Not a downgrade by any means, but my experience was that while I got some exceptional performance out of some of the PMC, I also got not-so-exceptional performance out of other, identical boxes of it.

My overall preference is for IMI because it and LC have the better brass; and that brass is specifically designed to tolerate the utterly brutal extraction operation of the M14/M1A. No other Semi treats fired brass as badly, which is why the US NATA cartridge case is a much beefier animal. For all intents and purposes LC and IMI can be treated as identical. The IMI Semi-Auto Match 168 is my 20" PA-10's favorite load.

But in any military case, even LC and IMI, have a 3 reloadings limit on them.

To answer your initial question, I would prefer the LC over the PMC.

Military handload recipes should not be used in commercial brass (Rem, Win, Fed, etc.) without at least a 1gr reduction in charge weight, despite the increased capacity in commercial brass..

Before anyone gets the idea I'm dissing these things, I state that I am simply paraphrasing Glenn Zediker, who literally wrote the book on reloading for the M-14. I worship at his feet on this subject.

I am currently working up a large batch of M-80 on my press, and all the cases will be IMI. The second batch will be made to M-855 specs.

Greg

I'm not a reloader, I missed the boat when it was cheap to get in to and regret it every day. My rifle is an ar style M&P10 that has chewed thru everything I've fed it with the exception of ZQ1. IMI is out of the question for me.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Shame about the IMI, the 308 Military brass is some of the best out there (according to Zedeker...).

Reloading is a significant responsibility which probably makes me a tad extra hazardous to be around, so I get your reluctance.

It's a good thing. If you don't like the idea, why do it?

I do it to get better impact consistency, and to reduce the wear and tear on my rifles - I'm NOT an intentional hot loader. Which means nothing when you're working with a new cartridge that has limited literature.

You do you, I'll do me, and we'll both do well.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Both are marginally good. I was mildly disappointed by LC 173 Match and mildly pleased by some PMC 175 match about a decade back. A decent FGMM Clone Handload can be good, but I can't beat it by handloading, and the $$$ savings are minimal.

Be aware that M-80 ball is not intended to develop extreme accuracy, but to create a maximum beaten zone for hostile fire suppression by having a certain rather generous dispersal built into the system, barrel, bullet, load. This is the core tenet of fire and maneuver warfare. That accuracy is it doing its job correctly.

If you're getting accurate incoming fire, you're in a sniper's sights.

Accuracy is the job of match ammo (168, 175).

This is also the reason for moderately/mediocre accurate infantry rifles. Again, sniper rifles are different.

M-80 is not a great match practice load, by definition. Best used closer in.

Greg

PS, can somebody define "tactical", as used in this instance? Seems like a marketing label they slap on anything they don't have another name for.

 

[Constructor]

IME it seems like IMI ammo and IMI rifles were made for each other. The ammo is accurate in their rifles but not so great in others. I mean it makes sense them using their rifles to test. S&B ammo seems to be more accurate in the rifles I shoot or have shot, M1A, PTR 91, AR10s built using the 7.62 Nato chamber etc. Same with S&B 77gr 5.56.
I doubt you can find it anymore but the Federal MK319 ammo is the most accurate military grade ammo I have found other than MK118LR.
FED M80 is decent.