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What's the deal with SBRs?

cjs88

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Minuteman
  • Jan 7, 2020
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    Received my PWS Mk111 Mod 2 upper yesterday and plan on SBRing the lower. Today another upper showed up. Let PWS know and they're hooking me up with a pistol lower, backordered of course, with a hefty discount for my honesty. Which is cool because I can now use the upper while the lower I originally got for it is in the SBR process.

    Now to my real questions. I have heard that SBR'd lowers aren't held in jail like suppressors. True or false?
    Meaning, I could use the lower while waiting on the stamp with a 16.1"+ bbl upper. T or F?

    This is new territory for me since it will be my first SBR and pistol lower.
     
    Received my PWS Mk111 Mod 2 upper yesterday and plan on SBRing the lower. Today another upper showed up. Let PWS know and they're hooking me up with a pistol lower, backordered of course, with a hefty discount for my honesty. Which is cool because I can now use the upper while the lower I originally got for it is in the SBR process.

    Now to my real questions. I have heard that SBR'd lowers aren't held in jail like suppressors. True or false?
    Meaning, I could use the lower while waiting on the stamp with a 16.1"+ bbl upper. T or F?

    This is new territory for me since it will be my first SBR and pistol lower.
    If you already have the lower, you can submit a form 1 to have it converted to an SBR. In the meantime you can use any upper on it. If it’s a pistol lower and never registered as a rifle do not put a stock on it, that’s now an SBR of you do.
     
    Received my PWS Mk111 Mod 2 upper yesterday and plan on SBRing the lower. Today another upper showed up. Let PWS know and they're hooking me up with a pistol lower, backordered of course, with a hefty discount for my honesty. Which is cool because I can now use the upper while the lower I originally got for it is in the SBR process.

    Now to my real questions. I have heard that SBR'd lowers aren't held in jail like suppressors. True or false?
    Meaning, I could use the lower while waiting on the stamp with a 16.1"+ bbl upper. T or F?

    This is new territory for me since it will be my first SBR and pistol lower.
    Any lower will work. Even one you own already or already have built up into something. You do not send the lower off to 'convert it' or anything like that. The only changes are for the most part are on government paper is all. The only actual change that is made is the lower needs to be engraved once the SBR process is done.

    For example I bought a couple of lowers and did the paperwork and then I drove those lowers over to a local guy to me and he engraved them for me while I waited. Once that's done you can put them all together. At no point did the lower ever leave my possession.

    Last I heard a Form 1 for an SBR takes about three weeks or so to get everything back. It's not some insane wait.
     
    Yes, it's true! You can use a 16" upper with the lower while waiting for the approval. It does not become an SBR until you add a barrel shorter than 16". The reason it's not in jail is because you are the manufacture using a Form 1 for the SBR. A suppressor or other Form 4 item would be held at the FFL SOT until approved because you are NOT the manufacture.
     
    So riddle me this. I bought then sold a suppressor that was sold on a form 3 still. The tax stamp I purchased through SS is in my account to be used for another NFA item. SS said for me to use it on an SBR my FFL needs to do a form 2 and then I can use the stamp towards the SBR.

    I know what they say is probably correct but just seems weird because a form 2 says "This form is used by qualified federal firearms licensees to report the manufacture or importation of an NFA firearm."

    Why is it not a form 1?
     
    So riddle me this. I bought then sold a suppressor that was sold on a form 3 still. The tax stamp I purchased through SS is in my account to be used for another NFA item. SS said for me to use it on an SBR my FFL needs to do a form 2 and then I can use the stamp towards the SBR.

    I know what they say is probably correct but just seems weird because a form 2 says "This form is used by qualified federal firearms licensees to report the manufacture or importation of an NFA firearm."

    Why is it not a form 1?
    You shouldn’t even have to use silencer shop. You can file it yourself through eforms
     
    • Like
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    You shouldn’t even have to use silencer shop. You can file it yourself through eforms
    But the tax stamp was purchased through ss. Wouldn’t I have to buy another through efile? Tying to avoid paying for another stamp.
     
    So riddle me this. I bought then sold a suppressor that was sold on a form 3 still. The tax stamp I purchased through SS is in my account to be used for another NFA item. SS said for me to use it on an SBR my FFL needs to do a form 2 and then I can use the stamp towards the SBR.

    I know what they say is probably correct but just seems weird because a form 2 says "This form is used by qualified federal firearms licensees to report the manufacture or importation of an NFA firearm."

    Why is it not a form 1?

    Seems like a form 1, but maybe reach out to SS and ask them to expand on the process. Personally, I would rather pay 200 dollars to do one eForm 1 and be done with the process, than something that involved a transfer from one dealer to another to me.
     
    Personally I’d just file a form 1 through efile on the pistol lower and just use the SS stamp for another can. Efile on mine took about 25 days for each to come back. Takes maybe 30 minutes to an hour on the atf website to complete depending if you have a current profile setup

    Not sure what barrel length your uppers are but many suggest having a pistol lower around while waiting for the atf approval on the lower. Just so you don’t have 10.5/11.5” etc uppers and all rifle lowers sitting there
     
    Seems like a form 1, but maybe reach out to SS and ask them to expand on the process. Personally, I would rather pay 200 dollars to do one eForm 1 and be done with the process, than something that involved a transfer from one dealer to another to me.
    I think that's what I'm going to do. Since I have the matching PWS lower coming. When it arrives at my FFL I will tell them I want to SBR it, so it should just be a form 1 at that point. Will probably either keep or post the SOLGW lower I was going to SBR through that weird form 2 process in the PX.
     
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    I think that's what I'm going to do. Since I have the matching PWS lower coming. When it arrives at my FFL I will tell them I want to SBR it, so it should just be a form 1 at that point. Will probably either keep or post the SOLGW lower I was going to SBR through that weird form 2 process in the PX.

    That’s not how it works, the FFL is going to transfer it it to you on a regular 4473 as a receiver, pistol, or rifle depending on the configuration it arrives, it’s transferred to you and then the form 1 is yours to deal with. Even if the dealer would assist you with the form 1 stuff, if they’re like most dealers they would probably fuck stuff up more than they’d help.

    You need to do the paperwork yourself and submit the form 1 yourself to send off and then get it engraved.
     
    That’s not how it works, the FFL is going to transfer it it to you on a regular 4473 as a receiver, pistol, or rifle depending on the configuration it arrives, it’s transferred to you and then the form 1 is yours to deal with. Even if the dealer would assist you with the form 1 stuff, if they’re like most dealers they would probably fuck stuff up more than they’d help.

    You need to do the paperwork yourself and submit the form 1 yourself to send off and then get it engraved.
    This ^

    Sounds complicated but it’s not. Just pay attention so you don’t get it declined. There’s some decent walk through videos on YouTube that can help

    When I did mine I purchased the gun originally as a pistol. Then simply did a form 1 through efile on atf website. 25 days later I was approved. Removed the brace and installed the stock. You’re able to use the gun as a pistol until approval as well as purchasing uppers you will use with the sbr as you can use them with the pistol configuration as well

    Form 1 is quick. If you transfer or buy an already assembled SBR the wait time is much longer
     
    I meant that. Anything to avoid this process that SS said would need to happen. Their process just sounds weird.

    Agent

    Ok, and they have the SBR in hand, already built, registered in the NFRTR?

    4:12 PM

    Chris Stewart

    No

    4:12 PM

    Agent

    either transferred to them on Form 3, or they built it themselves on Form 2.

    Right?

    4:13 PM

    Chris Stewart

    It's a lower I purchased and is at my other FFL waiting for me to pick up

    4:13 PM

    Agent

    Is the lower already registered with the ATF as an SBR?

    4:13 PM

    Chris Stewart

    No

    4:13 PM

    Agent

    Then we can't assist. It's not an NFA item.

    If your dealer wants to turn it into one, they can file a Form 2, wait for acceptance, and then assign it to you and use a stamp to transfer it to you.

    4:14 PM

    Chris Stewart

    okay

    4:14 PM

    Agent

    That's up to them.

    If it's not an NFA item already, our process is not involved

    4:15 PM

    Chris Stewart

    thank you

    You’re over complicating this, as someone else said use that tax stamp for something else. They want you to have a dealer “manufacture” it into an SBR and then transfer it to you on a form 4…. Don’t do that, it will just end up costing you pay more because most dealers aren’t going to do that at all and the ones that will it will end up costing you a lot more than doing it yourself and possibly more than that $200 stamp that you think you’re saving, plus most will want a $100 transfer for a form 4. Either use that stamp for something else or ask SS for a refund on it.

    Do the SBR on a form 1 yourself as everyone in this thread is saying.
     
    You’re over complicating this, as someone else said use that tax stamp for something else. They want you to have a dealer “manufacture” it into an SBR and then transfer it to you on a form 4…. Don’t do that, it will just end up costing you pay more because most dealers aren’t going to do that at all and the ones that will it will end up costing you a lot more than doing it yourself and possibly more than that $200 stamp that you think you’re saving, plus most will want a $100 transfer for a form 4. Either use that stamp for something else or ask SS for a refund on it.

    Do the SBR on a form 1 yourself as everyone in this thread is saying.
    Lol okay. You guys are paying $100 for firearms transfers or NFA items? Guess I'm lucky/spoiled my FFLs charge $10.
     
    Lol okay. You guys are paying $100 for firearms transfers or NFA items? Guess I'm lucky/spoiled my FFLs charge $10.

    $50-$100 is the norm for FFL transfers, there’s a lot more paperwork and the dealer has to sit on your item and be responsible for it for 6-12 months while your form 4 gets approved, which is another downside of having a dealer manufacture a SBR and then form 4 it to you, you’re looking at 6-12x as long to get your shit.
     
    Ah, okay for NFA. My dealer is $65 for NFA items, the first being free.
     
    Your dealer would also have to have their FFL setup as a manufacturer which they more than likely are not and then they’re not going to manufacture an SBR for you for free either. It will still cost you way more time and money than just doing the form 1 yourself, it’s the smart way to do it which is why everyone does that. If you’re that stuck on using your SS stamp then go for it but it’s stupid and your just wasting your stamp.
     
    The FFL guy I use charges a flat fee of $10 per transfer no matter what it is. If you are a member of the range he owns, the transfers are done gratis.
     
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    Does the caliber I choose on the form 1 mean it's locked in at that caliber? Or can I amend it to another later if I decide to switch?
     
    Does the caliber I choose on the form 1 mean it's locked in at that caliber? Or can I amend it to another later if I decide to switch?
    You can swap the upper/caliber at will. Or at least you could. I haven’t looked at the current atf laws which seem to change every other week.

    What I was told a few years ago when I registered my AR lower is I could swap uppers and calibers but had to keep original configuration on hand. If I made a permanent swap or sold the original configuration, say sell the 8” 300 blackout and permanently go 11.5” 556 then they ask you notify them of the change

    This is what I was told years ago though. Things may have changed since then
     
    No issue swapping to barrels over 16.1" once SBR'd?
    Read this thread. Most of your questions probably are in here

     
    Lol, what’s that? Don’t think I’ll be going anywhere anytime soon.
     
    Had to stop and re-read this thread. Lol.

    Transporation Form: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...rily-export-certain-nfa-firearms-atf/download

    Best solution, as the guys have stated above.

    Form 1 is when you make something with what you own. Making an existing lower into a SBR lower.

    Form 2 is the manufacturer reporting they made an item and registers it with the ATF.

    Form 3 is dealer to dealer. FFL to FFL.

    Form 4 is dealer/FFL to buyer.

    You can engrave it at anytime, but have that done before or after the Form 1 is approved. Once it's engraved and approved by the ATF in any order, only then you can make the rifle complete. Might as well add laser engraving is the cleanest way. Make sure the engraving is .003 inches deep and has a font size of 1/16th of an inch at minimum. It can't be hidden and has to be done on a fixed nd non-removeable part. Can go on the outside of the magazine area where the manufacturers have their info. Lately I've seen it done on the magwell opening lip if it's a flat exposed area. Top of inside the trigger area. Bottom of the trigger guard if it's a integrated one.

    I would also see about SS refunding the tax stamp or to further complicate things, see if they'll just forward that Tax Stamp money to the ATF on your behalf. Take a partial credit even or store credit. Sucks, but whatever they decide you're kind of at a loss on that one. Worst case you have to buy another suppressor. Just don't change your mind and sell it before taking ownership this time. If they refuse, maybe file it as fraud with your Credit Card company. They collected for a Tax Stamp that should go to the ATF. Pretty sure they shouldn't just hold onto money collected as a tax without actually surrendering it to the agency is was collected on behalf of.

    Also make sure that the lower transferred to you from the FFL is transferred as a receiver or a pistol. I haven't seen any transferred recently as a rifle, but make sure anyway. Mistakes happen, those mistakes can be the cause of headaches. "Receiver" can be built as a rifle or pistol. "Pistol" can be converted into a "rifle". Use common sense there. Like don't record yourself doing it and throw on a buttstock before swapping the upper.
    Proper order would be from pistol configuration, throw on the 16"+OAL upper on, then replace the brace. Or separate the upper and lower then swap parts around.
    If it was a lower that was sold to you and transferred on a 4473 as a complete rifle or "rifle" lower, this lower cannot be made into a pistol but can become a "SBR". Taking possession of the lower as a "receiver" or "pistol" keeps your options open.
    This allows you to built it as a pistol with the short barrel. Just rock a brace. So than once your form is approved and the lower is engraved, you can just swap the brace for a stock.

    Different calibers and configurations...
    To my understanding, you can use the SBR with different uppers. But you "should" keep the original approved configuration. I'd even always keep them together to be safe in a highly unlikely situation. If you decide to get rid of or change the barrel length or caliber to the designated upper for that SBR lower, that's when you are supposed to notify the ATF in writing. This is to notify them of permanent changes. Request acceptance confirmation in writing from the ATF in return. Swapping uppers is not permanent. If you don't have that upper you used with it, then have another of the same caliber and length. It's one of those ridiculous cover yourself bases for stupid rules. I don't have any experience with how petty the ATF is. So this is just what I believe to be the best correct practice.

    If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
     
    Last edited:
    Just learned you can't add Form 1's to SS's Trust. SS is trash. Since they just collect the tax money and hold onto it with a $5 mark up. The dealer is the one that usually helps with the paperwork anyway. Then you take the paperwork home and send it in yourself. This is the most retarded practice I've seen. SS just complicates it more and adds steps. Then increased the number of hands that touches the tax stamp money.

    Came across this site. Hmmmm.